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Crunchy mid range dialog on Star Trek Discovery
Old 14th June 2019
  #121
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBaron View Post
Seeing as this is the post-production forum you might be better off voicing this on JWSound where you'll actually get people who work in production sound.
The same applies to all facets of audio production. Do your best everyday and if everyone does that then the production should be the best they can do.

Many on this list have blamed the problems with ST on the boom operator, faulty lavs, the costume designer and not getting good consistent production sound for their not being able to do a good mix . They say there is nothing they can do about it.

I believe it is all about communications.

If you are getting poor tracks from the set then I guess I would sit down with the people doing the live capture and figure out a solution. If there is a problem with working with the various unions then I guess you will have to find a way to break down the barriers. I know it sound simplistic but sometimes the simple approach is the best approach. I freely admit I know nothing about the various problems you all face on a daily basis but I do know how to do good audio and do it consistently.

By the way, MBaron, it helps if you read the whole thread before making comments...just a suggestion.

FWIW
Old 14th June 2019
  #122
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I believe it is all about communications.

If you are getting poor tracks from the set then I guess I would sit down with the people doing the live capture and figure out a solution. If there is a problem with working with the various unions then I guess you will have to find a way to break down the barriers. I know it sound simplistic but sometimes the simple approach is the best approach. I freely admit I know nothing about the various problems you all face on a daily basis but I do know how to do good audio and do it consistently.
Why would you assume that people haven't already had all the "communications" they're capable of having with the people responsible?

There's a point at which you go from being this professional person who takes pride in his work trying to get the best job done to being this annoying nagging person that first couldn't take a hint and then wouldn't take no for an answer. And at that point the solution for those involved is to find somebody else.

I think what some of us (me) are saying is that we in post can only do so much, and that on a show of this caliber and exposure we can probably safely assume that whatever could be "communicated" from the post people was indeed communicated... and therefore if it now is what it is it's not something that "audio post" could have changed. And unfortunately it's entirely likely that the production audio people were in exactly the same spot.

It just is what it is.

Join a forum for producers etc and complain there about how they allocate their funds.
Old 14th June 2019
  #123
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Thomas, I would not assume there is any line of communication between post and production. Certainly sometimes but it is not a given.
Old 15th June 2019
  #124
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Why would you assume that people haven't already had all the "communications" they're capable of having with the people responsible?

There's a point at which you go from being this professional person who takes pride in his work trying to get the best job done to being this annoying nagging person that first couldn't take a hint and then wouldn't take no for an answer. And at that point the solution for those involved is to find somebody else.

I think what some of us (me) are saying is that we in post can only do so much, and that on a show of this caliber and exposure we can probably safely assume that whatever could be "communicated" from the post people was indeed communicated... and therefore if it now is what it is it's not something that "audio post" could have changed. And unfortunately it's entirely likely that the production audio people were in exactly the same spot.

It just is what it is.

Join a forum for producers etc and complain there about how they allocate their funds.
People here seem to say that they are getting bad audio from the set but they also seem to say "I assume the communication is being done" but have any of these people actually sat down with the people who are doing the capture and talked to them or is that not possible? Assumptions can be a bad thing.

The one thing that was magic at the PBS station I worked at was were were all in it together and we all wanted to produce the best programming we could. Granted we did not have unions to deal with and we were all good friends. It sounds to me like most of Hollywood subscribes to the "us and them" mentality. FWIW.

Be safe and have a GREAT life! I sense that the things you and others mention will not change because you and others are unwilling to change their way of doing business/working for what ever reasons (probably mostly financial security).
Old 15th June 2019
  #125
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Leverson's Avatar
Thomas, please try and have some perspective, the longer this thread goes the more you start to sound like a troll, as you armchair quarterback others work.

As others have assured you, these conversations do happen when they are possible, sometimes they help, sometimes they do not. Sometimes those conversations are not possible. I've mixed projects where the principal recordings were done a year or two or more prior to when I came on board. Short of time travel, there is nothing to be done in those cases but work with what I have, good or bad. And I promise you I'm just as passionate about my projects with bad recordings as I am about my projects with good ones.

I have nothing to do with that show, and I don't know what their stresses are in terms of schedules and budgets and limitations and expectations, but I imagine everybody on that show cares a lot about the work they do, and works hard. Critiquing is the part that comes easy.

And MBaron's comment above about directing you to JWsound if you want to get the perspective of production recordists was a good one, I'm not sure why you felt the need to chide that response. Especially since you are specifically talking about dialogue. I'm sure the people in that production sound forum would have their own perspectives just like the people in this post-production forum do.
Old 15th June 2019
  #126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leverson View Post
Thomas, please try and have some perspective, the longer this thread goes the more you start to sound like a troll, as you armchair quarterback others work.

As others have assured you, these conversations do happen when they are possible, sometimes they help, sometimes they do not. Sometimes those conversations are not possible. I've mixed projects where the principal recordings were done a year or two or more prior to when I came on board. Short of time travel, there is nothing to be done in those cases but work with what I have, good or bad. And I promise you I'm just as passionate about my projects with bad recordings as I am about my projects with good ones.

I have nothing to do with that show, and I don't know what their stresses are in terms of schedules and budgets and limitations and expectations, but I imagine everybody on that show cares a lot about the work they do, and works hard. Critiquing is the part that comes easy.

And MBaron's comment above about directing you to JWsound if you want to get the perspective of production recordists was a good one, I'm not sure why you felt the need to chide that response. Especially since you are specifically talking about dialogue. I'm sure the people in that production sound forum would have their own perspectives just like the people in this post-production forum do.
I tried to contact CBS about the problem and no reply. I assume they too don't really care. I am not trying to be an "armchair quarterback" or a "troll" so I will just not post anymore on this subject. It seems to me from reading the comments of others that you are all hard working and REALLY care about the quality of the sound you produce, it is just that it is impossible to do anything about this particular problem due to a myriad of problems that are out of your control.

Last edited by Thomas W. Bethe; 18th June 2019 at 01:46 PM.. Reason: Spelling
Old 18th June 2019
  #127
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TVPostSound's Avatar
Thomas

I’ve been the in house mixer for a single production company, the last 10 years.
At least 600 episodes, “I” can not get my shows production to be cleaner. I have no filter when I comes to my complaints.
Nothing works.
I just do my best.
Old 20th June 2019
  #128
Led
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Led's Avatar
There are times when I hear something on a show and think "jeez the sound dept missed that one", then the next day I get something to mix with a problem that can't be adr'd or replaced and I'm told I have to run with it. I do my best with it and think "someone else will be sitting at home next week and hear it and think jeez the sound dept missed that one". Hah..

I remember Slipperman saying in the early days here "Unless you were there, you don't know what the &*$% they were up against"
Old 20th June 2019
  #129
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ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led View Post
There are times when I hear something on a show and think "jeez the sound dept missed that one", then the next day I get something to mix with a problem that can't be adr'd or replaced and I'm told I have to run with it. I do my best with it and think "someone else will be sitting at home next week and hear it and think jeez the sound dept missed that one". Hah..

I remember Slipperman saying in the early days here "Unless you were there, you don't know what the &*$% they were up against"
Not sound but I was called to do some session work for piano to play a piece that was synced to animation for a TV commercial for a multinational corporation. The cartoon character, before they played the piece (which was in F) hits a key on the piano alone, just to hear it. The animators made him hit an E.

During the recording session I hit an "E" to line up with the character's motions but both the producer for the session and the reps for the company preferred me to hit an "F" instead because playing and holding an "E" for 2 seconds, then jumping in to the piece in "F" was considered too jarring. So I hit an "F", which did sound better in context.

Every time I see the commercial pop up on youtube, the comment section is loaded with comments from "musicians" constantly saying that whoever played the piano for the commercial clearly doesn't know sh!t because the note in the animaton is an "E" and the guy playing hit the wrong note. They should have called a real musician, etc.

There's more comments about that than there are about the actual commercial hahahaa
Old 22nd June 2019
  #130
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iluvcapra's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Not sound but I was called to do some session work for piano to play a piece that was synced to animation for a TV commercial for a multinational corporation. The cartoon character, before they played the piece (which was in F) hits a key on the piano alone, just to hear it. The animators made him hit an E.

During the recording session I hit an "E" to line up with the character's motions but both the producer for the session and the reps for the company preferred me to hit an "F" instead because playing and holding an "E" for 2 seconds, then jumping in to the piece in "F" was considered too jarring. So I hit an "F", which did sound better in context.

Every time I see the commercial pop up on youtube, the comment section is loaded with comments from "musicians" constantly saying that whoever played the piano for the commercial clearly doesn't know sh!t because the note in the animaton is an "E" and the guy playing hit the wrong note. They should have called a real musician, etc.

There's more comments about that than there are about the actual commercial hahahaa
Old 24th June 2019
  #131
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When it comes to talking to production sound in post, (at least in my world) It is a matter of calendar time. Most of the time we go into post after shooting has wrapped.

Sometimes, if you are lucky and the location sound team is good, you get to keep them for multiple seasons. When you do you almost always have a debrief and location sound will steadily improve. Most of the time though the location crew will not be the same, directors won't be the same AD's won't be the same, DOP's won't be the same. And all together this means that what the sound crew is up against, regardless if it is the same or not, is likely to have greatly varying conditions from team structure to team structure.
Its just part of the "game".
As long as we all do our best all the time, we may have a decent chance of pulling of good sounding work.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #132
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Kaffein's Avatar
 

Can someone post an example of this audio?

I came across a clip of the show and noticed the dialog audio sounded gooey/compressed like it was recording with a Scheops SuperCMIT Channel 1 preset... I've been hearing a lot of dialog like this these days and I wasn't sure if it was just this microphone being commonly used now or just a new in vogue style of processing dialog.

Is this what y'all are hearing or something else entirely?

Discovery:
https://youtu.be/Pu1fMa_yJz8?t=36

Example of the SuperCMIT Channel 1 w/ DSP:
https://youtu.be/nL-uaLn-5o8?t=101
Old 4 weeks ago
  #133
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Kaffein's Avatar
 

Also... Does anyone know what dialog microphone they used on TNG?

Set photo:
https://i.imgur.com/jB7BpeD.gif
Old 4 weeks ago
  #134
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaffein View Post
Can someone post an example of this audio?

I came across a clip of the show and noticed the dialog audio sounded gooey/compressed like it was recording with a Scheops SuperCMIT Channel 1 preset... I've been hearing a lot of dialog like this these days and I wasn't sure if it was just this microphone being commonly used now or just a new in vogue style of processing dialog.

Is this what y'all are hearing or something else entirely?

Discovery:
https://youtu.be/Pu1fMa_yJz8?t=36

Example of the SuperCMIT Channel 1 w/ DSP:
https://youtu.be/nL-uaLn-5o8?t=101
This is exactly the the tone I meant. Thank you! Thread can now be closed.

Why would they track with noise reduction? Or has the audio been Cedar'ed to smithereens and ended up sounding similar? I never worked with Cedar, I use Izotope RX lightly and two instances of Fabfilter MB with overlapping low and hi bands with settings taken from the Dolby Cat 430 documentation.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
And I feel the exact opposite.
Stopped watching it after a couple of episodes.
Worst ST ever produced with annoying and cheesy characters- and the opening score is worse than Enterprise. Watched one episode, barely got through it...decided to try one more episode and shut it off after hearing the annoying red head talk and that ridiculous Michael Burnam character. Roddenberry would have never green-lighted that show, for multiple reasons.

'Picard' will hopefully revive the franchise.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #136
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
the opening score is worse than Enterprise.
I've only watched Enterprise, not this, and I find it very hard to believe a theme song can be worse than that..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #137
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I've only watched Enterprise, not this, and I find it very hard to believe a theme song can be worse than that..
It's bad, very bad.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #138
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
Worst ST ever produced with annoying and cheesy characters- and the opening score is worse than Enterprise. Watched one episode, barely got through it...decided to try one more episode and shut it off after hearing the annoying red head talk and that ridiculous Michael Burnam character. Roddenberry would have never green-lighted that show, for multiple reasons.

'Picard' will hopefully revive the franchise.

https://scifibeer.com/discovery.htm

There are tons of links from reviewers describing how ****ty ST Discovery is. This is just one of them.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #139
I tried listening to the show in many different locations from my bedroom to my mastering room. The audio is just plain messed up and CBS seems not to care about it since they never replied to my emails. I have moved on. It was NOT in the best ST tradition and the audio made it worse.
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