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Reverb from music stems 4.0 in the central channel Reverb & Delay Plugins
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
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Vsevolod777's Avatar
 

Reverb from music stems 4.0 in the central channel

Hello! I studied all the possible topics in this section, but still have not received an answer.

I mix my own movie with surround sound. It will be shown in the cinema. I studied the study materials, which says that it is better not to use the central channel for music.

In every popular movie I hear music in the central channel (in some cases during the dialogue). But very quiet. And it seems I love it when it sounds like that.

I understand that the central channel is used by me for dialogue and foley. But I am afraid that when watching a movie theater it will appear a big hole if the music does not sound in the central channel.

I am also a composer in my film. And I will mix the stereo stems in 4.0.

My question is: Can I just add reverb to the presence of music in the center channel? I would not send a clarinet or oboe tough in the center. I have MX bus 5.1. Perhaps from there I could add reverberation through the altiverb to the center channel? I appreciate any of your advice!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
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TVPostSound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsevolod777 View Post
Hello! I studied all the possible topics in this section, but still have not received an answer.

I mix my own movie with surround sound. It will be shown in the cinema. I studied the study materials, which says that it is better not to use the central channel for music.

In every popular movie I hear music in the central channel (in some cases during the dialogue). But very quiet. And it seems I love it when it sounds like that.

I understand that the central channel is used by me for dialogue and foley. But I am afraid that when watching a movie theater it will appear a big hole if the music does not sound in the central channel.

I am also a composer in my film. And I will mix the stereo stems in 4.0.

My question is: Can I just add reverb to the presence of music in the center channel? I would not send a clarinet or oboe tough in the center. I have MX bus 5.1. Perhaps from there I could add reverberation through the altiverb to the center channel? I appreciate any of your advice!
There is no hard rules, just suggestions.

If it sounds good, then it is good. Use your judgement.
I usually keep music out of the center, but some TV shows, I like to add just a little to fill the center.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
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Why would the reverb of the stereo image of the music fall into the center? I'd ask yourself that.
Bleed a bit of the phantom center content (meaning the actual signal) to the center but don't bleed reverb alone. In essence filling the center with a bit of what is supposed to be centered in the stereo image.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
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Vsevolod777's Avatar
 

Thanks for the quick answers guys!

Quote:
Why would the reverb of the stereo image of the music fall into the center? I'd ask yourself that.
Bleed a bit of the phantom center content (meaning the actual signal) to the center but don't bleed reverb alone. In essence filling the center with a bit of what is supposed to be centered in the stereo image.
I tried to understand how you can effectively mix music in the central channel. A friend of mine advised me to send only reverb to the central channel. It confused me a little bit.

The only thing I forgot to mention is that I have jump scare (orchestral stings) that I need to mix. It should sound in the center to scare the viewer.

Are there any special instructions on how to properly combine this in the central channel? Thanks again!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsevolod777 View Post
The only thing I forgot to mention is that I have jump scare (orchestral stings) that I need to mix. It should sound in the center to scare the viewer.

Are there any special instructions on how to properly combine this in the central channel? Thanks again!
I don't work much in the horror genre but this has never been a thing. Orchestral stings can be left, right, phantom center, or just plain old wide stereo. It is actually disconcerting (and not in a "horror" sense) to have music mixed to suddenly different channel parameters.

Not to mention, with jump scares you have the possiblity of dialogue and (especially) sound effects still dominating the center.

Mix it the same as the rest of your score and let the re-recording mixer deal with what needs to happen. A fully-used music center is really only around/possible for areas when no other sound is being used there for an extended time (music-only montages, rolling end credits or music-only main titles, etc.)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
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cebolao's Avatar
 

i don't like when there is NO music in center channel

there must be room for dialog / foley of course
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
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Vsevolod777's Avatar
 

Thanks for the great answers and for keeping up the discussion guys!

What about the 5.1 reverb plugin for mixing music? What kind of rooms in reverb plugins do you use to mix stereo stems into 5.1? I drew attention to the Acon Digital Verberate Surround with excellent natural sound. Acon Digital Verberate Surround - Reverb plug-in (VST, AAX or AU)

Do you use it? What general recommendations could you give me regarding the choice of room in the reverb for mixing music? And do you use PreDelay? Thanks!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #8
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Henchman's Avatar
I disagree.
I nearly always have music also in the center.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I disagree.
I nearly always have music also in the center.
What % of the music do you put in the center? Equal amounts across LCR with divergence to the rears?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDDP View Post
What % of the music do you put in the center? Equal amounts across LCR with divergence to the rears?
Depends on the scene.
But I use Halo to unwrap music.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
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Vsevolod777's Avatar
 

Thanks for the discussion, Mark! It is a great honor for me that you participate in my topic.

According to my observations, Halo is the most excellent plugin for up-mixing. This is my way of mixing music:

First, I mix each stereo instrument and add a 5.1 reverb through the send, then each stem is sent to MX Bus 5.1, where the up-mix plug-in is configured. I tried to turn off the up-mix plugin, but it seems like the music sounds much better with it.

In many films I noticed more often and louder music from the central channel, where there are no dialogues.

I studied several popular films and wrote out approximate levels of music in LCR for myself. Usually the center channel is quieter LR on -6db, -9db, -12db, -15db, -18db.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #12
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A few things; the level of music in the center channel is going to depend on a lot of things. If the scene is a musical, main titles, end titles where you won't be fighting with dialogue - put as much in there as you want. If you do have to compete with dialogue and hard effects - put on;y enough music in there to glue the scene together - a little bit can go a long way.

If you are using an upmixer to derive your center channel much of what ends up in the center has to do with phase relationships in the music you send.

If you are using an upmixer for your music, there isn't much point in using 5.1 reverbs if you are sending the reverb to the upmixer as well.

Randall


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsevolod777 View Post
Thanks for the discussion, Mark! It is a great honor for me that you participate in my topic.

According to my observations, Halo is the most excellent plugin for up-mixing. This is my way of mixing music:

First, I mix each stereo instrument and add a 5.1 reverb through the send, then each stem is sent to MX Bus 5.1, where the up-mix plug-in is configured. I tried to turn off the up-mix plugin, but it seems like the music sounds much better with it.

In many films I noticed more often and louder music from the central channel, where there are no dialogues.

I studied several popular films and wrote out approximate levels of music in LCR for myself. Usually the center channel is quieter LR on -6db, -9db, -12db, -15db, -18db.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
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Vsevolod777's Avatar
 

Thanks for the answer, Randall!

Quote:
If you are using an upmixer for your music, there isn't much point in using 5.1 reverbs if you are sending the reverb to the upmixer as well.
Even if I mix reverb 5.1 to "every stereo stem" a bit before it comes to MX Bus with an upmix plugin? It makes music a little wider and deeper for me.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #14
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Henchman's Avatar
I only add additional reverb if I absolutely have to. If the composer wanted reverb, he would have added it himself.
Old 1 week ago
  #15
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Vsevolod777's Avatar
 

Hello again! I know that reverb 5.1 is possible here is extremely tuned to the wet musical stems. But still. Does this sound good or not? This is a theatrical mix.

I used creative reverb when I wrote the soundtrack in stereo.

But when I mix with sound design, for some reason I don’t have enough depth of music. It sounds like right in the face. Although I tried to push the stems back a bit and use the up-mix plugin

Listen, please. Thanks for the feedback!

FilmMixReverb51.wav 6 channels
FilmMixReverb51.wav - Google Drive
Old 1 week ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I only add additional reverb if I absolutely have to. If the composer wanted reverb, he would have added it himself.
I wouldn't look at it that way.
Many (most) composers do not compose in context, So if I feel the score needs more or longer reverb (or if it needs rebalancing or editing), I will do that (unless it goes against the directors wishes or the composers clear intentions, I dont do major edits without talking to the composer first of course).

To place the score in the emotional space where it needs to be is part of my job, if that means it needs more reverb, then more reverb it is. Or delay, eq, filtered dub delays or editing.
Old 1 week ago
  #17
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG View Post
I wouldn't look at it that way.
Many (most) composers do not compose in context, So if I feel the score needs more or longer reverb (or if it needs rebalancing or editing), I will do that (unless it goes against the directors wishes or the composers clear intentions, I dont do major edits without talking to the composer first of course).

To place the score in the emotional space where it needs to be is part of my job, if that means it needs more reverb, then more reverb it is. Or delay, eq, filtered dub delays or editing.

That still happens here as well. I re-edit cues all the time when needed, and if I can do it faster than giving it to the music editor who is on the stage. Also, if reverb or delay is added or I feel something needs to be rebalanced, it's done in consultation with the music editor, who is there to represent the composer.

But I don't simply add reverb to what's delivered.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsevolod777 View Post
Hello again! I know that reverb 5.1 is possible here is extremely tuned to the wet musical stems. But still. Does this sound good or not? This is a theatrical mix.

I used creative reverb when I wrote the soundtrack in stereo.

But when I mix with sound design, for some reason I don’t have enough depth of music. It sounds like right in the face. Although I tried to push the stems back a bit and use the up-mix plugin

Listen, please. Thanks for the feedback!

FilmMixReverb51.wav 6 channels
FilmMixReverb51.wav - Google Drive
How does it sound downmixed to stereo?

Also, it sounds like you're also the composer.
I think you will know best what you're intemt is.
So, if adding the reverb is how it sounds as you feel it should, then that will always be the correct decision.
Old 1 week ago
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
How does it sound downmixed to stereo?

Also, it sounds like you're also the composer.
I think you will know best what you're intemt is.
So, if adding the reverb is how it sounds as you feel it should, then that will always be the correct decision.
And meanwhile, what does the director think about that reverb?
Old 1 week ago
  #20
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Vsevolod777's Avatar
 

Thank you for participating in this topic, friends!

I could not understand why music when mixing in 5.1 is in front of my face, until I saw a restriction in my plugin for up-mixing.

Now it sounds very wide, deep and very expensive. Thank you for helping!

Quote:
How does it sound downmixed to stereo?
Sometimes I find that I need to turn up the volume of the music in LR. Especially when the dialogue sounds. But then, with downmixing in stereo, it sounds pretty loud. Perhaps this will come with experience. Overall, the stereo sounds pretty good.

If I slightly mix music into the center channel, then when I lower it in stereo, this direct signal is duplicated from LRLsRs?

Quote:
And meanwhile, what does the director think about that reverb?
This is a heavy dramatic film in which the hero is in a coma between life and death. All the narration of the film is based on the memories of the main character, expressed as dreams.

We need deep reverbs with tails. Perhaps you could give some advice on the type of room, size, value of PreDelay for music? Thanks!

As an additional reverb, I mainly use Hall, 2.40 sec, 26ms.
Old 1 week ago
  #21
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i use anymix instead of halo, which also sounds great

however i put one instance of anymix upmixer on every stereo music track, so i can upmix every track differently (more / less center etc)

the upmixed tracks go to the 5.1 music stem
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