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Fully Filled M&E - For Documentary Dual-Channel Preamps
Old 10th December 2018
  #31
Lives for gear
 

I found that when I was doing a lot of work for Discovery/Net Geo that I created a template that would allow me to deliver both dipped and undipped at the same time.

The template required a bit of thought to get it all straight at the beginning, but worked pretty well.

Basically, one would mix the show as if there were no VO. All of the stems would feed two sets of aux tracks - one set would feed the undipped print busses. I would then add the VO, and dipped on a set of aux channels that fed the Dipped busses. At the end of my session I had everything I needed with little fuss on my end.

Randall


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Some specs on our end actually require a mix minus dipped.
Old 11th December 2018
  #32
Lives for gear
 

I've done that as well in the past. It's not always the fastest way to work but when set up properly it's not terrible. I just meant to say earlier that just because someone receives dipped or undipped only it's not necessarily a reflection of the decisions of us engineers but rather what the production company wants and collects and then distributes.

This doc is all dialog and interviews btw. I had actually forgotten how refreshing it is to not hear a narrator tell me what's often obvious. The film just breathes a lot more this way. Wall-to-wall content really isn't always necessary...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #33
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nucelar View Post
Just to add my 2c from a foreign dubber perspective. We dub all kinds of feature and documentaries for Spain, so we receive lots of materials from different countries, different producers, distributors, etc. First of all, we do not receive any special kind of delivery for being Spain. All countries receive the same set of materials for dubbing the film/doc.
Regarding documentaries. In the 99% of cases for documentaries, we get "Mix-Minus" , often labeled and sold by the distributor as "M&E". I think we once received a fully filled M&E for a doc which was useless to us. Mix-Minus, as you know, is the full mix minus the Narrator. Sometimes there are dips in the music where the Narrator goes, sometimes there aren't. Always better when there aren't dips. Also, separate DME stems are very useful, but not always available. We in Spain dub the documentaries in the following way:
-Original Narrator is substituted by our Narrator
-Talking people in the documentary (footage made for the documentary) are dubbed in voiceover style (Original voice is dipped)
-Talking people from archive footage are preserved in original and subtitled.
Documentaries are never lip-sync.
There are some very special cases where the difference between feature and documentary is not very clear, these documentaries don't have a narrator or talking heads, and the narrative is more near to a feature film than a classic doc. (For example a doc about refugees precisely: "Fuocoammare") Then the local distributor may give it a feature film treatment and decide to lipsync, but it is very rare. That happened to us 2-3 times and the distibutor had to fall back to voiceover because a fully filled M&E would be necessary, which was not available and would be too expensive (or straight impossible) to produce expressly.

lol small world. i problably sent u tons of stuff from LA.

but since you and kosmo deal with the biggest markets (FIGS) and know more what your clients want etc etc...

i normally worked with scirpted so im curios about documentaries and reality tv shows and how they are handled in countries like germany and spain that these countries broadcasters pay about the same or more for a tv show's license than a US broadcaster and get the same airdates than US shows... (so big deals)

why wouldn't a spanish or german audience not like these docu or reality shows fully dubbed w fully M&E... and not w english mix underneath. i mean... i understand the part of "realism" in terms of docu and reality but the same case could be said for features and actors (tom cruise's) real voice.

To me is just aweful having to listen to the orignal voice lower in the mix and on top the dubbing actor with semi out of sync voices. (even worse is russia thats live translated and dubbed in realtime by only two actors: female/male)

woudnt poeple in germany or spain enjoy much more the show if there was someone fully dubbing the kardashians (crazy huge around the world for some odd reason) or a good documentary film about something important like refugee crisis etc. Woudnt they feel more immerse? Listening to those documentaries or reality show foriegn dubbed and also the english (mixed lower) at the same time distracts me way too much.

so im curious about this.
(PS: I just recently discovered the reasoning about europeans culture with not giving a lot of ice on drinks. so im slow)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #34
Gear Maniac
 

I will not get into the „realism“ or „european cultures“ parts of your question (would fill page after page) or the comparison with Tom Cruise blockbusters (as this is a completely different target audience / market). All I can say is that I’ve never ever worked on a documentary that even remotely had a budget that would allow for a fully filled M&E, added foley and recreating location sound and all, let alone lipsyncing all the speaking parts.



Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
lol small world. i problably sent u tons of stuff from LA.

but since you and kosmo deal with the biggest markets (FIGS) and know more what your clients want etc etc...

i normally worked with scirpted so im curios about documentaries and reality tv shows and how they are handled in countries like germany and spain that these countries broadcasters pay about the same or more for a tv show's license than a US broadcaster and get the same airdates than US shows... (so big deals)

why wouldn't a spanish or german audience not like these docu or reality shows fully dubbed w fully M&E... and not w english mix underneath. i mean... i understand the part of "realism" in terms of docu and reality but the same case could be said for features and actors (tom cruise's) real voice.

To me is just aweful having to listen to the orignal voice lower in the mix and on top the dubbing actor with semi out of sync voices. (even worse is russia thats live translated and dubbed in realtime by only two actors: female/male)

woudnt poeple in germany or spain enjoy much more the show if there was someone fully dubbing the kardashians (crazy huge around the world for some odd reason) or a good documentary film about something important like refugee crisis etc. Woudnt they feel more immerse? Listening to those documentaries or reality show foriegn dubbed and also the english (mixed lower) at the same time distracts me way too much.

so im curious about this.
(PS: I just recently discovered the reasoning about europeans culture with not giving a lot of ice on drinks. so im slow)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #35
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
why wouldn't a spanish or german audience not like these docu or reality shows fully dubbed w fully M&E... and not w english mix underneath. i mean... i understand the part of "realism" in terms of docu and reality but the same case could be said for features and actors (tom cruise's) real voice.

To me is just aweful having to listen to the orignal voice lower in the mix and on top the dubbing actor with semi out of sync voices.
I grew up in Sweden and most our content was original language with subtitles, but every now and then we got programming that had dubbed voice on top of dipped original language.

To me there's a huge difference between docs and features when it comes to the options (subtitles+original mix / dubbed+original / 'fully dubbed'). My preference for features has always been subtitles, because a lot of the time dubbing actors aren't as good as the original actors or the translation isn't on point. The same can be said for subtitle translation of course but then at least we have the original performance (pitch/pace/intensity etc) to help us.

For docs specifically I never look for the same type of... suspension of disbelief. I never expect to be so immersed in a doc that it equals a feature in that way. Instead I expect to be educated in one way or another, and the topic and information is what drives my engagement with the film, not an "illusion" of reality. As a matter of fact I'd say it's in one way comforting to hear the original voices beneath because it makes me feel like it indeed is a doc where real people are speaking, and the dub is simply a substitute for subtitles in a sense.

One more thing: I think I would be more annoyed seeing a person talking and lip-sync being off. It would probably drive me nuts. Instead with the original language dipped the dubbed dialog almost functions more like narration, which to me gets rid of the sensation of bad sync.

Of course part of what I'm saying is probably just due to me having grown up exposed to a certain way of doing things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
(even worse is russia thats live translated and dubbed in realtime by only two actors: female/male)
This I might agree with.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #36
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuG View Post
I will not get into the „realism“ or „european cultures“ parts of your question (would fill page after page) or the comparison with Tom Cruise blockbusters (as this is a completely different target audience / market). All I can say is that I’ve never ever worked on a documentary that even remotely had a budget that would allow for a fully filled M&E, added foley and recreating location sound and all, let alone lipsyncing all the speaking parts.
yes... i can understand that. but some of those documentaries and reality are shown in braodcasters that also broadcast more upscale material.
dubbing in EU is very expensive but if its shows that have a big audience i would think it would work. not sure. just guessing.

and having seeing german and france dubbing studios, it would be just plain wrong dubbing trashy reality tv shows on stages that far exceed in coolness most los angeles mixing stages.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #37
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I grew up in Sweden and most our content was original language with subtitles, but every now and then we got programming that had dubbed voice on top of dipped original language.

To me there's a huge difference between docs and features when it comes to the options (subtitles+original mix / dubbed+original / 'fully dubbed'). My preference for features has always been subtitles, because a lot of the time dubbing actors aren't as good as the original actors or the translation isn't on point. The same can be said for subtitle translation of course but then at least we have the original performance (pitch/pace/intensity etc) to help us.

For docs specifically I never look for the same type of... suspension of disbelief. I never expect to be so immersed in a doc that it equals a feature in that way. Instead I expect to be educated in one way or another, and the topic and information is what drives my engagement with the film, not an "illusion" of reality. As a matter of fact I'd say it's in one way comforting to hear the original voices beneath because it makes me feel like it indeed is a doc where real people are speaking, and the dub is simply a substitute for subtitles in a sense.

One more thing: I think I would be more annoyed seeing a person talking and lip-sync being off. It would probably drive me nuts. Instead with the original language dipped the dubbed dialog almost functions more like narration, which to me gets rid of the sensation of bad sync.

Of course part of what I'm saying is probably just due to me having grown up exposed to a certain way of doing things.



This I might agree with.
each country is different of course. france has some odd cultural laws so most has to be fully dubbed and every single text translated, even end credits.
so i thik that turned dubbers into more of like.. stars or something.

i think german and nordic markets do like more subtitles as the population seem to be more on average, well versed in english. so orignial language and subtitles is more ok. and faster to service from LA so big budget movies and tv shows can even air days or weeks before US airdates.


and thanks, thats the stuff that i was hoping to understand. if you and most viewers grow up seeing it this way, then doing it differently would be odd.
Plus, i think dubbing is so expensive that for reality tv and documentaries, it would make sense for broadcasters to create their own reflecting more their culture.
kardashian marketing power is global and impressive, but im sure there might be some trash/exentric/wierd characters in sweden to follow around with 3 cameras.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

The biggest stars are in Italy. Dubbing is really an art form here, and there are award shows for best male / female talent, best dubbing director and so on. One thing to keep in mind: Dubbing of fiction movies goes way back to Mussolini and nationalism - getting rid of all foreign language and idioms to preserve your own identity and culture. It‘s not only translating, but completely changing the material to conform to your own ideas / country. This was way before thinking about „markets“. Documentaries on the other hand want the exact opposite: They want to give real people a voice, not take it away, give insight into other cultures or ideas. Dubbing real people in documentaries - not made up characters in fictional stories or reality TV stuff for the masses (some of those are actually dubbed, often poorly) would not only be disrespectful and arrogant, but counterproductive to what most directors want to achieve.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #39
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nucelar's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
lol small world. i problably sent u tons of stuff from LA.

woudnt poeple in germany or spain enjoy much more the show if there was someone fully dubbing the kardashians (crazy huge around the world for some odd reason) or a good documentary film about something important like refugee crisis etc. Woudnt they feel more immerse? Listening to those documentaries or reality show foriegn dubbed and also the english (mixed lower) at the same time distracts me way too much.

so im curious about this.
(PS: I just recently discovered the reasoning about europeans culture with not giving a lot of ice on drinks. so im slow)
Hi! I'm pretty sure non-English audience would enjoy a show like the Kardashians, Catfish or just any kind of docu-reality fully dubbed. These shows are relatively new tv product, and have adopted the workflow of classic documentaries mainly for cost reasons, although many of them seem to very thought out script and planning. But no money or time to record wildtracks or foleys to create a properly filled M&E. European audience accepts the voice-over technique just fine. When a viewer doesn't understand English at a native level, the voice underneath kind of blurs away in your mind. You consciously know it's a dubbing and don't care, whereas in fiction, the illusion has to be complete.

On the other hand, when talking about "serious" documentaries (nature, historical, culture...) It would cause rejection to hear it fully dubbed because it eliminates the original audio, forcing an illusion where no illusion has to be achieved. It would be funnily ridiculous or as Manu said, disrespectful. That's why I don't like the overproduced sound post from BBC's Blue Planet documentaries, but that's another <squishy, slimy sounds> can of worms we already opened .

Last edited by nucelar; 4 weeks ago at 02:27 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #40
mymixisbetterthanyours!
 

Exactly what Manu and Nucelar said.

Documentaries are about realism (of course often subtly enhanced). Full dubbing would take that completely away.

Of course there's also the money (and time) issue, but even with unlimited budget I for one would not fully dub any documentary.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #41
Gear Head
 

HBO, for one, requires a fully filled M&E for a doc. I’m about to start one for Hulu, and their specs require that as well, although I’m going to try and see if I can wriggle out of it. A lot of people will take one that’s not fully filled, but not these guys. You’ll just get it kicked back. As it was explained to me, they have a large Latin market they need to cater to.

And they’re pretty stringent about it. If there’s a hand down during a sit down interview, they want it on the M&E. They want everything. So going through all the verite and saving what you can, then adding what you need, is fairly tedious, of course. Takes me a few days for a 90 min doc, usually. Then a day to mix it and print deliverables.

What I’ve found, though, is that they’ll let a lot of English go by if it’s intrinsic to the film. Some protest chanting in English during a riot, for example. I usually prepare a spreadsheet with every such instance, label it “directorial intent”, and that seems to work fine. No one in Germany or Spain is going to redo 100 people yelling.

I agree the final dubbed result must be awful, but there’s really no option if they demand it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #42
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuG View Post
The biggest stars are in Italy. Dubbing is really an art form here, and there are award shows for best male / female talent, best dubbing director and so on. One thing to keep in mind: Dubbing of fiction movies goes way back to Mussolini and nationalism - getting rid of all foreign language and idioms to preserve your own identity and culture. It‘s not only translating, but completely changing the material to conform to your own ideas / country. This was way before thinking about „markets“. Documentaries on the other hand want the exact opposite: They want to give real people a voice, not take it away, give insight into other cultures or ideas. Dubbing real people in documentaries - not made up characters in fictional stories or reality TV stuff for the masses (some of those are actually dubbed, often poorly) would not only be disrespectful and arrogant, but counterproductive to what most directors want to achieve.
oh... yes... old italian and spanish dubs are famous in LA... but for the wrong reasons. the censorship edits where the ones sent to LA for vaulting purposes.. which are the ones that needed to be used for netflix, amazon etc (or new broadscaters) which normally came in half inch or adat with no time code reference that needed to conform to a recent film transfer of those really old 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s movies. took like 8 hours to fix one i remember... which is cheaper to pay one random dude like me in burbank to conform per second than to redub. geez. plus some had a different music in the M&E as that was kinda how it was done in some movies back in the day. yikes.

interesting about your point about documentaries and how directors feel. (i doubt they have a choice though) but i can sense a theme in this thread.
to me it would be like watching those japanese anime in japanese with english subs instead of the dubbed version. the orignal obvously seems to be more real and the images timed to it but i find it more confortable watching the englihs version. but thats me. i would prefer to have a good dubbed everything rather than listening to both languages . but its understandable, could be a culture thing, budget thing or it really is the best way to deal with reality/docu programming
Old 4 weeks ago
  #43
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nucelar View Post
Hi! I'm pretty sure non-English audience would enjoy a show like the Kardashians, Catfish or just any kind of docu-reality fully dubbed. These shows are relatively new tv product, and have adopted the workflow of classic documentaries mainly for cost reasons, although many of them seem to very thought out script and planning. But no money or time to record wildtracks or foleys to create a properly filled M&E. European audience accepts the voice-over technique just fine. When a viewer doesn't understand English at a native level, the voice underneath kind of blurs away in your mind. You consciously know it's a dubbing and don't care, whereas in fiction, the illusion has to be complete.

On the other hand, when talking about "serious" documentaries (nature, historical, culture...) It would cause rejection to hear it fully dubbed because it eliminates the original audio, forcing an illusion where no illusion has to be achieved. It would be funnily ridiculous or as Manu said, disrespectful. That's why I don't like the overproduced sound post from BBC's Blue Planet documentaries, but that's another <squishy, slimy sounds> can of worms we already opened .
oki, now i have to watch blue planet again to remember.

yes, the budgets are also lower in other regards. there has to be a script.
and dubbings would cost too much for reality tv which seems to be more disposable.

either way, now it seems that there are way more scripted shows than reality anyway. and documentaries dont seem to have picked up steam.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #44
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by evanb View Post
HBO, for one, requires a fully filled M&E for a doc. I’m about to start one for Hulu, and their specs require that as well, although I’m going to try and see if I can wriggle out of it. A lot of people will take one that’s not fully filled, but not these guys. You’ll just get it kicked back. As it was explained to me, they have a large Latin market they need to cater to.

And they’re pretty stringent about it. If there’s a hand down during a sit down interview, they want it on the M&E. They want everything. So going through all the verite and saving what you can, then adding what you need, is fairly tedious, of course. Takes me a few days for a 90 min doc, usually. Then a day to mix it and print deliverables.

What I’ve found, though, is that they’ll let a lot of English go by if it’s intrinsic to the film. Some protest chanting in English during a riot, for example. I usually prepare a spreadsheet with every such instance, label it “directorial intent”, and that seems to work fine. No one in Germany or Spain is going to redo 100 people yelling.

I agree the final dubbed result must be awful, but there’s really no option if they demand it.
itll be interesting to watch a fully dubbed documentary.

for crowd they mix walla crowd and their own. not the same though but gives the idea. but it always depends of course. glad they take it w english tough.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #45
Lives for gear
 

There was a story on PRI's "The World" recently about dubbing in Italy. Brief history and whatnot but they mentioned there is an Idol-type competition for the next dubbing star. It is an odd concept for most Americans. I'd almost always prefer subtitles. One exception being animation. It's easier for me to accept it there.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #46
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
interesting about your point about documentaries and how directors feel. (i doubt they have a choice though) but i can sense a theme in this thread.
to me it would be like watching those japanese anime in japanese with english subs instead of the dubbed version. the orignal obvously seems to be more real and the images timed to it but i find it more confortable watching the englihs version. but thats me.
Can you please explain to me why you “doubt they have a choice”? What’s your authority on that matter? How many great documentaries have you mixed, sitting with the director next to you? Not talking about reality soaps, but movies like “War Photographer”. In Europe, and especially with documentaries, it’s still the director’s movie. This is auteur cinema. You might not understand that this is very, very different from the Hollywood business where a lot of the time, it is the studio who is in charge. Here, more often than not, director and producer are even the same person, and it’s some of their own money funding the film.

I’d be very interested in getting to know that director who would absolutely love to have her movie about the Berber tribes of the Sahara fully dubbed.

And again, you’re comparing something highly artificial (japanese animated fiction with made up characters) to documentaries with real people.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #47
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nucelar's Avatar
 

I think that gsilbers means that directors have no control over what happens once the film gets distributed internationally. And this is generally true. Hehe I even think they don't want to get involved at all. For major productions (disney, superhero franchises, etc) there is definitely a dubbing supervisor involved but for indy cinema and documentaries I have never received instructions for dubbing. One famous exception was Kubrik, who took a very active part in the dubbing process. For example he insisted on using a particular Spanish actress for dubbing Wendy Torrance in "The Shining", a screen actress with no experience in dubbing. The result was peculiar to say the least. The voice timbre was indeed very similar to Shelly Duvall but the result was very far away from what the audience was expecting.
The decisions on how to dub a particular production are taken by the studio together with the local distributor of the film. Both parts work in order to create the most faithful adaption and to please the local audience.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #48
Gear Maniac
 

I see. Must have misunderstood what he meant. I find that whole discussion about the "need" of dubbing documentaries plain silly. Never heard of it before this thread. About 95% of what I mix will have subtitles, the rest has voice over, if there's talking heads.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nucelar View Post
I think that gsilbers means that directors have no control over what happens once the film gets distributed internationally. And this is generally true. Hehe I even think they don't want to get involved at all. For major productions (disney, superhero franchises, etc) there is definitely a dubbing supervisor involved but for indy cinema and documentaries I have never received instructions for dubbing. One famous exception was Kubrik, who took a very active part in the dubbing process. For example he insisted on using a particular Spanish actress for dubbing Wendy Torrance in "The Shining", a screen actress with no experience in dubbing. The result was peculiar to say the least. The voice timbre was indeed very similar to Shelly Duvall but the result was very far away from what the audience was expecting.
The decisions on how to dub a particular production are taken by the studio together with the local distributor of the film. Both parts work in order to create the most faithful adaption and to please the local audience.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #49
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nucelar View Post
I think that gsilbers means that directors have no control over what happens once the film gets distributed internationally. And this is generally true. Hehe I even think they don't want to get involved at all. For major productions (disney, superhero franchises, etc) there is definitely a dubbing supervisor involved but for indy cinema and documentaries I have never received instructions for dubbing. One famous exception was Kubrik, who took a very active part in the dubbing process. For example he insisted on using a particular Spanish actress for dubbing Wendy Torrance in "The Shining", a screen actress with no experience in dubbing. The result was peculiar to say the least. The voice timbre was indeed very similar to Shelly Duvall but the result was very far away from what the audience was expecting.
The decisions on how to dub a particular production are taken by the studio together with the local distributor of the film. Both parts work in order to create the most faithful adaption and to please the local audience.
correct. most of the time directors dont have an option for international distirbution. only cases is when the director has enough clout. mel gibsons and that apocaliytic and jesus christ movie he said it cannot be dubbed and poeple HAVE to watch it in the orignal langauge. (Although i think it changed recently.) And lucas film (used) have some odd things like this as well for how subtitles are treated etc.

and yes for the dubbing process is motly the local distributor or the main or first broadcaster. then the studio buys back the track or part of it. thats for tv and smaller theatrical releases.
but since streaming companies now have made such a chnaged, this might of changed. and broadcasters in Europe are airing at the same time than american broadcasters. or streaminf companies get a licence for the same time window than rboadcaster (and pay the same amount for the licnece) so control of the dub tracks might have shifted. but still the dubbing will be done in these very cool stages like Syncron in germany, cinephase in france and sdi etc. so the change might be who approves the voices and final version. and in japan they just redub it again if its on another broadcaster.. they have some crazy laws over there about that. similar in brazil. impressive what a good union can do.
for theatrical is defenitly a good idea to have a main supervisor making sure iron mans voice doesnt change from one movie to another one. but i think i remember some big budgets that messed up or did some wierd changes for them ain characters as im guessing poeple didnt know that marvel would of gone so big and thre is a different actor.

interesting to learn about the the shinning dub. im guessing there are ton of stories like this. and no matter the language you can still notice a bad dub actor. The choices are sometimes wierd. but for example, if you grew up listening to the simpsons in your native langauge and then listen to the english version , its just not the same. you (i) prefer the lanaguge orignally watched. kinda like song remixes.

Last edited by gsilbers; 3 weeks ago at 04:19 PM..
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