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Building an Atmos 7.1.4 studio Audio Interfaces
Old 18th November 2018
  #31
Gear Maniac
 

P.S.:

here is a drawing of my layout,
maybe this help to understand the signal flow
Attached Files
File Type: pdf VIKTORIA STUDIOS SIGNALFLUSS.pdf (22.1 KB, 156 views)
Old 19th November 2018
  #32
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clipgod View Post
P.S.:

here is a drawing of my layout,
maybe this help to understand the signal flow
Thanks very much for the diagram. Looks confusing, so trying to understand.

I haven't purchased any equipment or Intonato yet. Could you have a look at my diagram? This is what im thinking but unsure if its correct. Need separate 7.1 mix path apart from the Atmos 7.1.4 path.

Does the new RMU mac/windows still use command line interface for rendering or a gui?

How does the rendering work exactly? Is it punched / printed in protools or gives out wav files offline?

128 Dante card not available for Avid MTRX yet. So im wondering if the Dante route is better or older MADI route.
Attached Thumbnails
Building an Atmos 7.1.4 studio-vistaindia_atmos-7-1-signalflow-hdx2-mtrx-1hd-madi-rme.jpg  
Old 19th November 2018
  #33
Gear Maniac
 

what confuses me looking at your signal flow is the double conversion from the RME to Intonato, and why there even is a Intonato.
For the cost of the Intonato and the RME, you can almost get the 8x MTRX DA cards and the speakercard and do everything with just the MTRX,
or just get the speakercard and a cheaper alternative as a DA converter and even save some $$

I needed a direct 7.1 path out of ProTools as well, with different calibration and levels than the RMU. This can easily be done in the MTRX with the speakercard:
Duplicate your speaker setup and you can apply different Eqs and Calibration levels, like a -3db or the surrounds, or bass managment the surrounds for
Atmos Home. It`s a very flexible and powerfull box.

According to my dealer, the 128ch. Dante card will be available within weeks.

Ohhh .. and one more question:
What the Focusrite Box for in your setup?
Old 19th November 2018
  #34
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clipgod View Post
what confuses me looking at your signal flow is the double conversion from the RME to Intonato, and why there even is a Intonato.
For the cost of the Intonato and the RME, you can almost get the 8x MTRX DA cards and the speakercard and do everything with just the MTRX,
or just get the speakercard and a cheaper alternative as a DA converter and even save some $$

I needed a direct 7.1 path out of ProTools as well, with different calibration and levels than the RMU. This can easily be done in the MTRX with the speakercard:
Duplicate your speaker setup and you can apply different Eqs and Calibration levels, like a -3db or the surrounds, or bass managment the surrounds for
Atmos Home. It`s a very flexible and powerfull box.

According to my dealer, the 128ch. Dante card will be available within weeks.

Ohhh .. and one more question:
What the Focusrite Box for in your setup?
Hi,

Im yet to go through your setup in detail.

in my design, Protools is sending 128 outs the through MTRX and a HD MADI to the Dell RMU and 128 returns, using 2 HDX cards, then how will the 7.1.4 atmos monitoring happen in realtime from the MTRX? It and Protools has exhausted its 128 I/Os. Hence the monitoring is using the RME Madi to Analog converter to Intonato


HDX 1 card<---Digi link64 i/o--->MTRX<------->Dell RMU 64 in--->Monitoring
HDX 2 card<---Digi link64 i/o--->HD MADI<--->Dell RMU 64 in--->Return to Protools

The intonato is for switching between the 7.1 mix (using AES) from the MTRX and Atmos 7.1.4 mix from the RME Madi to Analog.

So there is no double conversion. Intonato takes both digital and analog signals. i could get a MADI to AES RME convertor, so as to feed the Intonato only AES signal from the RMU.

Duplicating my speaker setup is not an option for obvious reasons...7.1.4 is the no. of speakers that i can put. So a switching of source has to happen. If the MTRX can do it internally then gr8.

The Focusrite X2p is a Dante Audio interface allowing me to dub dialogue corrections and stuff on headphones inside the Atmos room itself, when my other 3 Dubbing studios are in use.
Old 19th November 2018
  #35
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickwhistler View Post
Hi,



in my design, Protools is sending 128 outs the through MTRX and a HD MADI to the Dell RMU and 128 returns, using 2 HDX cards, then how will the 7.1.4 atmos monitoring happen in realtime from the MTRX? It and Protools has exhausted its 128 I/Os. Hence the monitoring is using the RME Madi to Analog converter to Intonato

I think the *mistake* you are doing is limiting the MTRX to a certain number of inputs. It can go way beyond the 64 ProTools and the 64 Madi Inputs, depending on the cards you put in. Any input can be a source, and any output can be a routing destination or a speaker. For example, you could put a 2nd Madi card in the MTRX and hook up your RME directly to the MTRX and define your speaker output through that card.

Here is how my MTRX is configured:
I have a 7.1.4 Source coming directly from the RMU (via Dante)
I have a 7.1 Source coming from ProTools (Digilink)
I have a 7.1, 5.1 and 2.0 live Re-Render coming from the RMU (Dante)
and various 2trk inputs

I have a 7.1.4 Speaker Output for Atmos
I have a duplicated 7.1 speaker output for the same speakers, but with different level calibration and Eq curve for cinematic work.
I think there was a misunderstanding with "duplicated speaker setup":
I meant to duplicate the setup inside your MTRX, not physically in your studio of course.

Does this help?
Nico
Old 19th November 2018
  #36
Gear Maniac
 

one more thing I just realize:

For meeting the Dolby Atmos Home Specs, you need to be able to monitor the 5.1 and 2.0 live Re-Renders in realtime.
I don`t see how this is possible with your setup
Old 19th November 2018
  #37
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clipgod View Post
I think the *mistake* you are doing is limiting the MTRX to a certain number of inputs. It can go way beyond the 64 ProTools and the 64 Madi Inputs, depending on the cards you put in. Any input can be a source, and any output can be a routing destination or a speaker. For example, you could put a 2nd Madi card in the MTRX and hook up your RME directly to the MTRX and define your speaker output through that card.

Here is how my MTRX is configured:
I have a 7.1.4 Source coming directly from the RMU (via Dante)
I have a 7.1 Source coming from ProTools (Digilink)
I have a 7.1, 5.1 and 2.0 live Re-Render coming from the RMU (Dante)
and various 2trk inputs

I have a 7.1.4 Speaker Output for Atmos
I have a duplicated 7.1 speaker output for the same speakers, but with different level calibration and Eq curve for cinematic work.
I think there was a misunderstanding with "duplicated speaker setup":
I meant to duplicate the setup inside your MTRX, not physically in your studio of course.

Does this help?
Nico
Hi Nico,

Thanks for your insight. Confusion is if i put in an additional Madi or Dante card in MTRX to enable it to receive 128 ins, but still a single hdx card can only provide 64 outs via Digilink....so if i put in a 2nd HDX card, where do i hook it up to send the additional 64 outs? You have used an SSL Delta Link Madi which i believe is an alternative to Avid HD Madi.

Then what is the need for 2nd Madi card in the MTRX?

Quote:
I have a duplicated 7.1 speaker output for the same speakers, but with different level calibration and Eq curve for cinematic work.
How are you switching between them? Through MTRX? Are you using a MOM controller? Do you have a DAW controller like S3 or Artist Mix?

Quote:
For meeting the Dolby Atmos Home Specs, you need to be able to monitor the 5.1 and 2.0 live Re-Renders in realtime.
I don`t see how this is possible with your setup
So how do you suggest i go about it? If say im sticking to MADI instead of Dante.

Is your setup ready? Does the new RMU mac/windows still use command line interface for rendering or a gui?

How does the rendering work exactly? Is it punched / printed in protools or gives out wav files offline?
Old 19th November 2018
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickwhistler View Post
Hi Nico,

Thanks for your insight. Confusion is if i put in an additional Madi or Dante card in MTRX to enable it to receive 128 ins, but still a single hdx card can only provide 64 outs via Digilink....so if i put in a 2nd HDX card, where do i hook it up to send the additional 64 outs? You have used an SSL Delta Link Madi which i believe is an alternative to Avid HD Madi.

Then what is the need for 2nd Madi card in the MTRX?


If you wanna go Madi, the 2nd card would be to hook up the RME directly to the MTRX:

HDX1 - MTRX via DigiLink - MADI Out 1-64
HDX2 - Madi Interface (SSL or Avid) directly into RMU ch 65 - 128

Monitor Patch: 2nd Madi card into RME

The SSL Delta Link is not officially supported on HDX, but works just fine and saves you around 1.500 Euros on the interface. Just keep in mind it only has Madi optical, not coaxial.

I have a S6, so all switching is done on the console. But there are alternatives like IOS App or Switching in DADman.
Old 20th November 2018
  #39
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickwhistler View Post

Is your setup ready? Does the new RMU mac/windows still use command line interface for rendering or a gui?

How does the rendering work exactly? Is it punched / printed in protools or gives out wav files offline?


My setup has been tested by Dolby and the qualified Dolby Dealer here in Germany. Room is calibrated, everything is in specs, also from the dimension of my room and speakerlayout. it`s just the 128ch. Dante card missing.

I think there is also a bit confusion about the term rendering. Actually there are 3 types of rendering happening in the Doby RMU:
The let`s call it "Main Renderer". This is where the main Atmos mix of a minimum of 1bed and your objects is rendered, that`s the one you will monitor in 7.1.4 out of your RMU. Then there is the live renders, where you can monitor your mix in 7.1, 5.1 or Stereo in realtime, and the re-renderer, where you can export various versions and formats of your mix once you have your masterfile. I am not really sure which one you are talking about, but none of this happens in ProTools, it`s all in the RMU. Once your mix is done, you need one final pass where the RMU Records your Masterfile in realtime. From this Masterfile you can do your re-renders and also export to WAV ADM file.
Old 20th November 2018
  #40
Lives for gear
 

So much to learn, thankful for all the tidbits that everyone is sharing.
Not ready for theatrical Atmos this year, but hopefully in a year or two.
TV-Atmos is nearer on the horizon.
Old 21st November 2018
  #41
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clipgod View Post
My setup has been tested by Dolby and the qualified Dolby Dealer here in Germany. Room is calibrated, everything is in specs, also from the dimension of my room and speakerlayout. it`s just the 128ch. Dante card missing.

I think there is also a bit confusion about the term rendering. Actually there are 3 types of rendering happening in the Doby RMU:
The let`s call it "Main Renderer". This is where the main Atmos mix of a minimum of 1bed and your objects is rendered, that`s the one you will monitor in 7.1.4 out of your RMU. Then there is the live renders, where you can monitor your mix in 7.1, 5.1 or Stereo in realtime, and the re-renderer, where you can export various versions and formats of your mix once you have your masterfile. I am not really sure which one you are talking about, but none of this happens in ProTools, it`s all in the RMU. Once your mix is done, you need one final pass where the RMU Records your Masterfile in realtime. From this Masterfile you can do your re-renders and also export to WAV ADM file.
Hi Nico, greetings from India

Could you tell me how are you handling storage of the Atmos tracks in the MAC RMU? Internal is just 256gb SSD, so do you have an external hdd hooked up? What kind of hdd and capacity is required for realtime storage of the almost 128 tracks?

Also

you said
Quote:
If you wanna go Madi, the 2nd card would be to hook up the RME directly to the MTRX:

HDX1 - MTRX via DigiLink - MADI Out 1-64
HDX2 - Madi Interface (SSL or Avid) directly into RMU ch 65 - 128

Monitor Patch: 2nd Madi card into RME
I showed your diagram to my local Dolby consultant. He was wondering how are you monitoring the live renders from the RMU? Is the 2nd Madi card for the same purpose? Are those tracks from RMU coming back to protools to be
printed or recorded?

Also he was wondering why the 2nd sync hd for the HD native mac system?

Usually when i mix stereo or 5.1, in the box, i have my print masters recorded on separate audio tracks in the same protools session through some internal routing of the dialogues, effect, music. Are RMU returns printed in this form in protools as well?

Im still unable to get a handle on the 128 outs from protools in RMU, 128 returns and how the monitoring happens realtime. i usually visualize my signal flows in my head, but don't know why its not happening.

My Dolby consultant is now finding out whether as per the new updated Renderer and Mastering Suits app, whether my Mac pro running protools can become the RMU itself without the need for external machines.

If you dont mind could you also share your studio pics and layout? Im designing mine at the moment and confused between Orthogonal and Equidistant mix positions. Will share when im done designing in CorelDraw.

Thanks & Regards
Rigveda
Old 21st November 2018
  #42
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickwhistler View Post

I showed your diagram to my local Dolby consultant. He was wondering how are you monitoring the live renders from the RMU? Is the 2nd Madi card for the same purpose? Are those tracks from RMU coming back to protools to be
printed or recorded?

Also he was wondering why the 2nd sync hd for the HD native mac system?

Usually when i mix stereo or 5.1, in the box, i have my print masters recorded on separate audio tracks in the same protools session through some internal routing of the dialogues, effect, music. Are RMU returns printed in this form in protools as well?

Im still unable to get a handle on the 128 outs from protools in RMU, 128 returns and how the monitoring happens realtime. i usually visualize my signal flows in my head, but don't know why its not happening.

My Dolby consultant is now finding out whether as per the new updated Renderer and Mastering Suits app, whether my Mac pro running protools can become the RMU itself without the need for external machines.

If you dont mind could you also share your studio pics and layout? Im designing mine at the moment and confused between Orthogonal and Equidistant mix positions. Will share when im done designing in CorelDraw.

Thanks & Regards
Rigveda
Hi Rigveda,

you need to get your hands on more detailed information of the MTRX. It can do everything you need it to do, but they can explain it much better than I can.
There are some helpful Avid youtube videos around, have a look at those.
For my RMU live-renders, I just define a Source in the MTRX where the inputs are (i.e. DANTE 1-8) and send that to my speakers, that`s it.

I use my PT Native as a print rig and stem recorder. In order to be frame aligned, it needs a 2nd SYNC HD.

The RMU has to be on a Mac of it`s own, those are the Dolby specs. You need a drive capable of writing 128 48KHz/24bit over the length of your movie. They are not specifically saying what drive that should be, but it has to be a fast SSD. In my case I have a PCIe SSD card.

best,
Nico
Old 22nd November 2018
  #43
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clipgod View Post
Hi Rigveda,

you need to get your hands on more detailed information of the MTRX. It can do everything you need it to do, but they can explain it much better than I can.
There are some helpful Avid youtube videos around, have a look at those.
For my RMU live-renders, I just define a Source in the MTRX where the inputs are (i.e. DANTE 1-8) and send that to my speakers, that`s it.

I use my PT Native as a print rig and stem recorder. In order to be frame aligned, it needs a 2nd SYNC HD.

The RMU has to be on a Mac of it`s own, those are the Dolby specs. You need a drive capable of writing 128 48KHz/24bit over the length of your movie. They are not specifically saying what drive that should be, but it has to be a fast SSD. In my case I have a PCIe SSD card.

best,
Nico
Hi Nico

Will surely read in depth on the MTRX. Thanks

Quote:
Once your mix is done, you need one final pass where the RMU Records your Masterfile in realtime. From this Masterfile you can do your re-renders and also export to WAV ADM file.
So since Protools and RMU are time locked, if i need to stop my final pass to make some changes in mix and punch in, the punch in/recording of print track happens in RMU? is there a punch option?

If you don't mind could you share your studio pics and layout? Im designing mine at the moment and confused between Orthogonal and Equidistant mix positions. Will share when im done designing in CorelDraw.
Old 22nd November 2018
  #44
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickwhistler View Post
Hi Nico

Will surely read in depth on the MTRX. Thanks



So since Protools and RMU are time locked, if i need to stop my final pass to make some changes in mix and punch in, the punch in/recording of print track happens in RMU? is there a punch option?

If you don't mind could you share your studio pics and layout? Im designing mine at the moment and confused between Orthogonal and Equidistant mix positions. Will share when im done designing in CorelDraw.
No, the final pass has to be in real time, you can`t punch in or out.
My Dolby Rep gave me some example drawings, yours should provide the same. I am not sure if I can publish those, so please send me a PM.
Old 11th March 2019
  #45
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clipgod View Post
Hi Rigveda,

the Dolby RMU needs a dedicated Mac on its own. The production Suite can ran on the same Mac, but not the RMU.
I will get the DAD 128ch. Dante card as soon as it is available for Channel 65-128. LTC is generated by a Sync HD and with the Dante AVIO Analog Input Adapter send into the Dante network and then patched in the Dante Network to the RMU.
I have a HDX2. HDX #1 is connected to the MTRX, HDX #2 is connected to a SSL Madi Interface, which is going into the MTRX and then converted to Dante.

I monitor Atmos over the MTRX. So RMU Dante out 1-12, MTRX Dante in 1-12, room eq and Atmos setup is done in the MTRX using the Eq card.

Do you already have the INTONATO?
That`s what I used before I got the MTRX. It`s a good piece, and I liked it for what it is. But in a RMU Setup, I found it to be not flexible enough. Not having the cash for the MTRX DA cards, I ended up buying a Lynx Dante card and put it in my Lynx Aurora as my DA converter. I love the flexibility you get with Dante and the system sounds great, better than the Intonato I had before. Not sure if it is the speaker processing card, or the DA, but there is a bit more definiton and 3D than before.

hope this helps,
Nico
So you use two hdx cards with one connect to the MTRX and the other connected to a HD Madi and the HD Madi is connected to the mtrx using the bnc connectton in the back. So this gives a total of 128 channels which can be routed to an RMU via a mtrx Dante card from the DADMAN software.
The rmu had a focusrite rednet Dante pcie card and that sends back the required audio streams back to the mtrx for monitoring via it's DA card and routing is done again in the DADMAN SOFTWARE?

The Dolby documentation says it's recommended to use two HD MADI interfaces which are routed to the MTRX.
Also this I saw in a video where Sreejesh Nair, who is great btw, check out his website film mixing.com for a lot of info on Atmos mixing.
Old 15th April 2019
  #46
Here for the gear
 

Hi Nico,

Hope you are doing well.

Looking at your signal flow i have One tiny question...which Blueray player do you have and how are you connecting it to your Lynx to get Atmos playback Or is it only for 7.1 playback?

My studio is almost complete and would be up and running this month. After reading through your answers, speaking to a Rmu vendor in the UK, I got clarity.

My local dealer/integrator helped me as well. I'm using a Digigrid Dli and Ioc setup with Intonato instead of Avid Mtrx, Spq and Da cards, which helped me save lot of money.

Will share my diagrams soon.
Old 18th April 2019
  #47
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickwhistler View Post
Hi Nico,

Hope you are doing well.

Looking at your signal flow i have One tiny question...which Blueray player do you have and how are you connecting it to your Lynx to get Atmos playback Or is it only for 7.1 playback?

My studio is almost complete and would be up and running this month. After reading through your answers, speaking to a Rmu vendor in the UK, I got clarity.

My local dealer/integrator helped me as well. I'm using a Digigrid Dli and Ioc setup with Intonato instead of Avid Mtrx, Spq and Da cards, which helped me save lot of money.

Will share my diagrams soon.
Hi there,

hope you like your Intonato, I never got friend with mine though.

Actually my BluRay Player got replaced by an Apple TV recently. I am still figuring out how to monitor external devices in Atmos, without buying an expansive Atmos Receiver with preamp outs. Until then, I am using a HDMI to 7.1 converter, which is hooked up to the Lynx Analog Inputs.

BTW, the recent announced Digilink card for the MTRX will make things so much easier, as you don`t need a 2nd interface for channels 65-128 anymore. You can hook it all up to one MTRX interface.
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