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Need help setting a Dolby Atmos mixing room
Old 23rd September 2018
  #1
Need help setting a Dolby Atmos mixing room

Hi Everyone.

I'm teaching Surround Post at a UNI in Melbourne and we want to setup our room for Atmos mixing.

The issue is that we are trying to integrate some of our old gear into this setup as a starting point.

Here is what we have:

ICON D-Control 32 with Xmon
2 x AVID I/O with 24 outs
13.1.6 JBL series 7 monitoring system (10 x JBL 705p (Sides and back), 6 x Control 2P (Ceiling) and 3 x 708P L, C and R)
nMP 12 core with HDX1, Protools Ult.

we also have 1 x avid MADI interface spare laying around...

I want to present my boss with few options:

1- The cheapest possible to get us started integrating what we have
2- a middle ground
3 -a high end future proof setup

Since this is for education purpose only, we don't really need to author in Atmos, just be able to mix in Atmos.. even though it would be nice eventually to author for Blu Ray at least

Now the main issue is integrating the D-Control:
1- We can't use as a monitor controller for Atmos
2- It does not use the EUCON protocol, which means that we can't both enable EUCON in Protools and use the D-Control, so we can't use PT Control app
3- The Surround panner won't work for Atmos.. I'm assuming it will still work for regular 5.1 and 7.1 use as it should

So I'm thinking:

1- Cheapest setup ($4,800)

1 x JBL Intonato 24 Monitor Management Tuning System ($3000)
1 x Dolby Production Suite for Protools ($300)
1 x Dolby atmos surround Panner ($1500) (which one to use Im not sure, JL Cooper Nuage panner? Does it work with Protools built in Atmos panner?)

2 - Middle ground ($54,300)

1 x extra HDX Card ($3000)
1 x Avid S6 M10 16-5 with S6 Master Joystick ($42,000), Maybe can trade in and get it cheaper
1 x Dolby Production Suite for Protools ($300)
1 x JOB Intonato 24 Monitor Management Tuning System ($3000)

3- All out ($137,500)

1 x extra HDX Card ($3000)
1 x Avid S6 M40 32-5_- with S6 Master Joystick ($112,000)
1 x MTRX with 3 x Analog Out cards, 1 x MADi Module for base Unit 1 x SPQ Card ($11,500)
1 x DAD MOM (monitor Controller) ($1,500)
1 x Dolby RMU + MADI Sync Cards + Dolby Mastering Suite ($9500)

Any feedback on this? It's the first I'm setting up a room like this...

Thanks everyone!
Old 23rd September 2018
  #2
Lives for gear
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hi Everyone.

I'm teaching Surround Post at a UNI in Melbourne and we want to setup our room for Atmos mixing.

The issue is that we are trying to integrate some of our old gear into this setup as a starting point.

Here is what we have:

ICON D-Control 32 with Xmon
2 x AVID I/O with 24 outs
13.1.6 JBL series 7 monitoring system (10 x JBL 705p (Sides and back), 6 x Control 2P (Ceiling) and 3 x 708P L, C and R)
nMP 12 core with HDX1, Protools Ult.

we also have 1 x avid MADI interface spare laying around...

I want to present my boss with few options:

1- The cheapest possible to get us started integrating what we have
2- a middle ground
3 -a high end future proof setup

Since this is for education purpose only, we don't really need to author in Atmos, just be able to mix in Atmos.. even though it would be nice eventually to author for Blu Ray at least

Now the main issue is integrating the D-Control:
1- We can't use as a monitor controller for Atmos
2- It does not use the EUCON protocol, which means that we can't both enable EUCON in Protools and use the D-Control, so we can't use PT Control app
3- The Surround panner won't work for Atmos.. I'm assuming it will still work for regular 5.1 and 7.1 use as it should

So I'm thinking:

1- Cheapest setup ($4,800)

1 x JBL Intonato 24 Monitor Management Tuning System ($3000)
1 x Dolby Production Suite for Protools ($300)
1 x Dolby atmos surround Panner ($1500) (which one to use Im not sure, JL Cooper Nuage panner? Does it work with Protools built in Atmos panner?)

2 - Middle ground ($54,300)

1 x extra HDX Card ($3000)
1 x Avid S6 M10 16-5 with S6 Master Joystick ($42,000), Maybe can trade in and get it cheaper
1 x Dolby Production Suite for Protools ($300)
1 x JOB Intonato 24 Monitor Management Tuning System ($3000)

3- All out ($137,500)

1 x extra HDX Card ($3000)
1 x Avid S6 M40 32-5_- with S6 Master Joystick ($112,000)
1 x MTRX with 3 x Analog Out cards, 1 x MADi Module for base Unit 1 x SPQ Card ($11,500)
1 x DAD MOM (monitor Controller) ($1,500)
1 x Dolby RMU + MADI Sync Cards + Dolby Mastering Suite ($9500)

Any feedback on this? It's the first I'm setting up a room like this...

Thanks everyone!
# 3 MINUS the S-6. That's $25,500.00
You do not need an S-6 to mix Dolby Atmos. I have an Icon D Control and mix Atmos, DTS X and IMAX and Auro 11.1 with it and it works fine. Save your money for another year to get the S6.

Stay away from:
JBL Itonato.
Stay away from any outboard Joystick.

I would say talk directly with the dealer who sells and supports your system.
Ask them these questions. You have prices now make them earn your business by giving you tech support on the build out.
Old 23rd September 2018
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
# 3 MINUS the S-6. That's $25,500.00
You do not need an S-6 to mix Dolby Atmos. I have an Icon D Control and mix Atmos, DTS X and IMAX and Auro 11.1 with it and it works fine. Save your money for another year to get the S6.

Stay away from:
JBL Itonato.
Stay away from any outboard Joystick.

I would say talk directly with the dealer who sells and supports your system.
Ask them these questions. You have prices now make them earn your business by giving you tech support on the build out.
If you don’t mind me asking, How do you have your ICON setup with Atmos, does the built in Panner joystick works? What do you use as a monitor controller/ room tuning?
Old 23rd September 2018
  #4
Lives for gear
 
pentagon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
<snip>

we also have 1 x avid MADI interface spare laying around...

<snip>

3- All out ($137,500)

1 x extra HDX Card ($3000)
1 x Avid S6 M40 32-5_- with S6 Master Joystick ($112,000)
1 x MTRX with 3 x Analog Out cards, 1 x MADi Module for base Unit 1 x SPQ Card ($11,500)
1 x DAD MOM (monitor Controller) ($1,500)
1 x Dolby RMU + MADI Sync Cards + Dolby Mastering Suite ($9500)
Trying to understand this. (The bolded part)
The MTRX comes with MADI onboard already. You can only address 64in/64out channels from Pro Tools with a MTRX. So unless you need a different format (optical instead of coax) of MADI, you don't need to add MADI to the MTRX.

You will need that spare MADI interface, though, for the second HDX card to tie to the RMU if going with the full Dolby setup.

I think this is where things get dicey with costs/Dolby RMU. To send the full complement of 128 channels to the RMU and also have speaker monitors, in your hypothetical setup, you'd need 2 AVID MADI i/o boxes (these would be linked to the Dolby RMU's 2 sets of MADI), 1 MTRX (handling monitoring and any other routing), and an HDX3 system (one card needed per audio interface).
Old 23rd September 2018
  #5
Lives for gear
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
If you don’t mind me asking, How do you have your ICON setup with Atmos, does the built in Panner joystick works? What do you use as a monitor controller/ room tuning?
Watch this:
YouTube
There is aprox 10 videos .

I did this video for Avid MTRX and Westlake Pro in LA.
Old 23rd September 2018
  #6
Gear Addict
 
rcutz's Avatar
Please just check out that a new RMU is coming, with suport to Dante, using a focusrite pcie card wich allows 128 i/o. Also DAD will be launching a new dante card to Ax32 with 128 too. This card should be available as MTRX too.

Some tech around atmos is changing (mostly regarding ht atmos), but maybe it will impact the cinema too. I believe there is a effort to simplify it.
Old 24th September 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
 
pentagon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcutz View Post
Please just check out that a new RMU is coming, with suport to Dante, using a focusrite pcie card wich allows 128 i/o. Also DAD will be launching a new dante card to Ax32 with 128 too. This card should be available as MTRX too.

Some tech around atmos is changing (mostly regarding ht atmos), but maybe it will impact the cinema too. I believe there is a effort to simplify it.
But if you are working in Pro Tools, a lot of what you mentioned doesn't matter.
Focusrite 128 channel card can't run with Pro Tools Ultimate (software only) and speak to all 128 channels -- have to use an interface. MTRX can only have 64 channels addressed (even if routing via Dante) via an HDX card by Pro Tools.

These changes are great for extra routing within the MTRX, but in a Pro Tools workflow, you are still stuck with needing multiple interfaces/hdx cards. Nice thing is cabling will get simpler.
Old 24th September 2018
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Brian Campbell's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
# 3 MINUS the S-6. That's $25,500.00
You do not need an S-6 to mix Dolby Atmos. I have an Icon D Control and mix Atmos, DTS X and IMAX and Auro 11.1 with it and it works fine. Save your money for another year to get the S6.

Stay away from:
JBL Itonato.
Stay away from any outboard Joystick.

I would say talk directly with the dealer who sells and supports your system.
Ask them these questions. You have prices now make them earn your business by giving you tech support on the build out.
I thought Intonato was a viable solution?
Old 24th September 2018
  #9
Gear Addict
 
rcutz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
But if you are working in Pro Tools, a lot of what you mentioned doesn't matter.
Focusrite 128 channel card can't run with Pro Tools Ultimate (software only) and speak to all 128 channels -- have to use an interface. MTRX can only have 64 channels addressed (even if routing via Dante) via an HDX card by Pro Tools.

These changes are great for extra routing within the MTRX, but in a Pro Tools workflow, you are still stuck with needing multiple interfaces/hdx cards. Nice thing is cabling will get simpler.
The focusrite card is spec by dolby to replace the RME madi cards in a new MAC RMU configuration. It isn’t intended to run a protools with it.
Old 24th September 2018
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Trying to understand this. (The bolded part)
The MTRX comes with MADI onboard already. You can only address 64in/64out channels from Pro Tools with a MTRX. So unless you need a different format (optical instead of coax) of MADI, you don't need to add MADI to the MTRX.

You will need that spare MADI interface, though, for the second HDX card to tie to the RMU if going with the full Dolby setup.

I think this is where things get dicey with costs/Dolby RMU. To send the full complement of 128 channels to the RMU and also have speaker monitors, in your hypothetical setup, you'd need 2 AVID MADI i/o boxes (these would be linked to the Dolby RMU's 2 sets of MADI), 1 MTRX (handling monitoring and any other routing), and an HDX3 system (one card needed per audio interface).
My thinking was if I need to send 128 tracks to the RMU and back, MTRX comes with 64 i/o MADi built in, needs an extra 64 MADi to reach 128. From my understanding if you link the 2 x HDX card with Digiflex cable, you can hook then up to 1 x MTRX and get the 128 I/O... Wouldnt this work or I'm understanding this wrong? There is a setup from AVID here Pro Tools | MTRX - Audio Interface for Post - Avid showing a MTRX loaded for 40 speakers DA outputs, 192 MADi I/O etc...

But then I'm assuming regardless I would still need a 3rd HDX card to have the extra I/O to then reach my speakers (20 of them) right?... 13 of them have an AES3 connection... So when i comes down to the AES that comes with the MTRX, its 8 inputs and outputs right? Can I configure that to be 16 outputs instead? that way I would only need 1 analog out card...

Still the Intonato sounds like a WAY cheaper option to start with... then I wouldn't need a MTRX just quite yet... are they that bad?

Maybe as a starting point I could just start with 64 MADi to the RMU from an MTRX... I would be restricted to 2 x 7.1.4 beds and 8 objects (is that correct? do you still need to setup all the AUX return in protools to then go to your speakers with an RMU) which isn't a hell lot and use the built in speaker correction that come with the Dolby master suite running on the RMU...? or do I have to get that SPQ card...? At least I would be starting with gear that we can upgrade later on... damm it so many questions.... Sorry guys
Old 24th September 2018
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
Watch this:
YouTube
There is aprox 10 videos .

I did this video for Avid MTRX and Westlake Pro in LA.
Well you've got quite a setup there sir! You are the Jedi at this thing... So thanks for your time Marti.

Ok I'm gonna need to digest these signal flow and make sure I understand this properly... I'm obsessed now... Coming from stereo music mixing to then 5.1 and 7.1 post... things were quite simple.. and I always been the mixer (and yeah most of the time in the box...) I've always had the room setup for me with everything working without having me to worry about it, which allowed me to be very creative

All I want is a system setup as simple as possible where I can switch between 13.1.6, 7.1 and 5.1 simply with the speakers tuned for all of these format, be able to print the mix on those 3 formats at once, using the ICON as a control surface and a surround panner working in all these format... and keeping it under a budget.
Old 24th September 2018
  #12
Lives for gear
 
pentagon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
My thinking was if I need to send 128 tracks to the RMU and back, MTRX comes with 64 i/o MADi built in, needs an extra 64 MADi to reach 128. From my understanding if you link the 2 x HDX card with Digiflex cable, you can hook then up to 1 x MTRX and get the 128 I/O
This is where you are wrong. One MTRX can only be hooked up to one HDX card for a total of 64 in/out that Pro Tools can see. Pro Tools cannot see 128 channels on a MTRX. This is non-expandable for Pro Tools channels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
But then I'm assuming regardless I would still need a 3rd HDX card to have the extra I/O to then reach my speakers (20 of them) right?... 13 of them have an AES3 connection... So when i comes down to the AES that comes with the MTRX, its 8 inputs and outputs right? Can I configure that to be 16 outputs instead? that way I would only need 1 analog out card...
See above. 64 in/out is all you get for Pro Tools. If you are using the 64 out for connecting to the RMU, then you can't use the AES out for Pro Tools.

All the extra inputs and outputs a MTRX can do are useful for routing, summing, patching. But Pro Tools can only see 64 of those channels (in and out) at a time only.
Old 24th September 2018
  #13
Lives for gear
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Well you've got quite a setup there sir! You are the Jedi at this thing... So thanks for your time Marti.

Ok I'm gonna need to digest these signal flow and make sure I understand this properly... I'm obsessed now... Coming from stereo music mixing to then 5.1 and 7.1 post... things were quite simple.. and I always been the mixer (and yeah most of the time in the box...) I've always had the room setup for me with everything working without having me to worry about it, which allowed me to be very creative

All I want is a system setup as simple as possible where I can switch between 13.1.6, 7.1 and 5.1 simply with the speakers tuned for all of these format, be able to print the mix on those 3 formats at once, using the ICON as a control surface and a surround panner working in all these format... and keeping it under a budget.
Here is what you need to do...
Talk directly with your local Dolby Rep in Australia .
Dolby will answer all your questions. Their support and knowledge is
outstanding! You are installing a Dolby Atmos mix room in a University.
You are teaching others about Dolby Atmos. These students once graduated will be creating Dolby Atmos content. They will be buying for themselves or for the studio they are working at Dolby products. Use Dolby to help on your set up.
All you're getting both here and the DUC is a confusing bunch of suggestions. Have the Dolby Atmos experts at Dolby assist you. You are getting a better idea what you need now sort it out with Dolby. The last thing you need is an S-6. You need the whole eco system first..
TALK TO DOLBY!! TALK TO YOUR PRO AUDIO DOLBY ATMOS REP!

Last edited by dr.sound; 24th September 2018 at 03:06 PM..
Old 24th September 2018
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
Here is what you need to do...
Talk directly with your local Dolby Rep in Australia .
Dolby will answer all your questions. Their support and knowledge is
outstanding! You are installing a Dolby Atmos mix room in a University.
You are teaching others about Dolby Atmos. These students once graduated will be creating Dolby Atmos content. They will be buying for themselves or for the studio they are working at Dolby products. Use Dolby to help on your set up.
All you're getting both here and the DUC is a confusing bunch of suggestions. Have the Dolby Atmos experts at Dolby assist you. You are getting a better idea what you need now sort it out with Dolby. The last thing you need is an S-6. You need the whole eco system first..
TALK TO DOLBY!! TALK TO YOUR PRO AUDIO DOLBY ATMOS REP!
Thanks mate, at least chatting with you guys gave me a better understanding of the ecosystem, I’ll chat with Dolby and then I can make a more informed decision.
Old 24th September 2018
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
This is where you are wrong. One MTRX can only be hooked up to one HDX card for a total of 64 in/out that Pro Tools can see. Pro Tools cannot see 128 channels on a MTRX. This is non-expandable for Pro Tools channels.

See above. 64 in/out is all you get for Pro Tools. If you are using the 64 out for connecting to the RMU, then you can't use the AES out for Pro Tools.

All the extra inputs and outputs a MTRX can do are useful for routing, summing, patching. But Pro Tools can only see 64 of those channels (in and out) at a time only.
Thanks mate, I get it now. this whole thing is starting to clear up a bit!
Old 25th September 2018
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
Here is what you need to do...
Talk directly with your local Dolby Rep in Australia .
Dolby will answer all your questions. Their support and knowledge is
outstanding! You are installing a Dolby Atmos mix room in a University.
You are teaching others about Dolby Atmos. These students once graduated will be creating Dolby Atmos content. They will be buying for themselves or for the studio they are working at Dolby products. Use Dolby to help on your set up.
All you're getting both here and the DUC is a confusing bunch of suggestions. Have the Dolby Atmos experts at Dolby assist you. You are getting a better idea what you need now sort it out with Dolby. The last thing you need is an S-6. You need the whole eco system first..
TALK TO DOLBY!! TALK TO YOUR PRO AUDIO DOLBY ATMOS REP!
Well.. turns out the Pro audio dealer we deal with does not do Dolby Atmos... actually bearly anyone does in Australia

Called Dolby Australia, they told me contact your pro dealer, they could not or did not want to put me in touch with anyone who could help...

So I contacted my old boss at the post audio studio I use to work at.. turns out he is the only authorised dealer of Dolby gear in Australia and the only one linked to the Dolby website... and he is putting me in touch with the Dolby Atmos expert for Asia/Pacific. Let see what happens.... Martie if you know anyone in the US who would some time to waist on me in terms of Protools setup options... please let me know!

Last edited by [email protected]; 25th September 2018 at 06:59 AM..
Old 25th September 2018
  #17
Lives for gear
 

You have two real paths here: you can get an RMU or you can go the 'local renderer' route.

The RMU route will be easier, but more expensive as it requires a dedicated server (the Rendering/Mastering Unit) and all of the hardware to get in and back.

The local renderer is , I believe, part of the Atmos Production Software suite. It will allow you and your students to mix in ATMOS, but it requires an AUX send for each feed to the software version of the RMU. Small rooms that pre-mix ATMOS material will use this software to accomplish that. It would be the more cost-effective way to go, but takes a bit more power from the computer.

Randall



Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Well.. turns out the Pro audio dealer we deal with does not do Dolby Atmos... actually bearly anyone does in Australia

Called Dolby Australia, they told me contact your pro dealer, they could not or did not want to put me in touch with anyone who could help...

So I contacted my old boss at the post audio studio I use to work at.. turns out he is the only authorised dealer of Dolby gear in Australia and the only one linked to the Dolby website... and he is putting me in touch with the Dolby Atmos expert for Asia/Pacific. Let see what happens.... Martie if you know anyone in the US who would some time to waist on me in terms of Protools setup options... please let me know!
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