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Netflix now wants Protools Sessions for dubs(too?) Studio Headphones
Old 2 weeks ago
  #61
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iluvcapra's Avatar
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Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
While we are on the subject, I would love to get the reverb/effect sends from the primary language sessions as opposed to having to match on my own.
You should request this and you should get it. I promised the M&E crew my dialogue auxes from Truth or Dare when I wrote my mixer map. When they got the memo but not the session I got an angry email, so they definitely were expecting it. (Show had monster voices.)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
On thing that comes up where I am in regards to foreign dubbing is the use of an unapproved or unfinished M&E. In almost all cases, since the shows that we deal with do Day and Date release in FIGs, a v1 M&E is sent out so dubbing can start immediately. Even though a later approved M&E is sent, I don't think it is always used.

With the foreign dub session, one would be able to simply drop in the corrected M&E and output the new PM/Stems without issue - as opposed to having to mix/dip almost from scratch.

While we are on the subject, I would love to get the reverb/effect sends from the primary language sessions as opposed to having to match on my own.

Randall
Ha! I know exactly what u are doing.
Yes it’s a big shift in post production in the last decade that many don’t know about; simultanous release date in all territories.
I think the networks haven’t been too open about this to the tech people.
It’s a monumental shift in strategy and there are still a ton of misses.
Having to coordinate with 7 other countries, their broadcasters, their dubbers and at the same time getting lock cut—- even prior to lock cut/onlines and the available m&e at that point of huge tv shows is extremely challenging and imo asking to much from dubbers. Not only production is chasing the US airdate but all these different dubbers who have to shoot dubbing in parts, with revisions, half ass m&e and non broadcast script.

the only positive thing is that it helps with piracy and also those licesing deals are as big as the American ones. Which for tech people couldn’t care less... but hey. It’s a business.

I do know that a famous director/tv show wanted to replace a music cue the same week a huge release aired. They thought they could just insert the new cue into an hdsr and shove it in the air like the good old days. Little did they know they where like 3 weeks too late.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
This is all really good, and it's clear you need a lot of flexibility in order to make everything every different distribution channel needs, but the trade-off someone might be concerned about is that, in order to give the distributors the flexibility they need (by giving them mix sessions, for example), we risk compromising the integrity of the process.



It's not about the mixers at ABC's vendors being "good" to me, so much as the mix that comes from ABC is the closest to what the filmmaker intended to produce. The filmmaker expects that when he leaves the room, the thing he heard that afternoon will sound exactly the same in every different situation. Obviously this is an impossible standard and we can make a lot of allowances for the foreigns, for small screen versus big screen, but the compromises should be only just what's necessary, and they should not afford third parties the ability to re-interpret the original -- again, within practical limitations. The final is Final, in the Aristotelian sense.

It's not as big a deal now, but just wait until someone like Christopher Nolan gets a showrunner deal at Amazon.

Hmmm... no it’s still not that. For both our sake I’ll leave it to difference of opinion. It’s a vast world after deliverables are done for a tv show.


And I still think you are not understanding what the initial op spec said or what I’m saying as the integrity of the show doesn’t get touch.
And that’s part of every contract. I cannot grab a tv show and say, I don’t like the dialogue on this section and change the mix.

So again, it’s for foreign dubbing.


And btw- I’ve received deliverables from Nolan’s movies, James Cameron movies and so on. There is always a mixing session for the original mix. It’s always been part of the deliverables at the end of a film. It’s for backup purposes. No one will change anything. There are very strict rules about all these for which I needed to go through fbi background checks every year for access and any works is pre approved and later checked by their team.
But still, what we are talking in This thread is very different. And what proves my point about comunication. Everyone jumps and thinks someone will open a session and be tweaking Leonardo DiCaprio’s voice or something.
This is a different part of the business where studios actually make a profit so it’s very strict and important.
The specs are not made by just some dude with an excel program. It’s a multi department affair who contact dubbers and studios around the world to make sure they are onboard. And they are made with specific purposes.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuG View Post
Last mix (low budget indie movie) we did, world sales asked for

Full Mix
M&E
D&E for trailers
D
M
E
Hard FX
Foley
BG
Optional 1
Optional 2

all of those for

DCP, BluRay, TV R128, Web

+ all of those in 5.1 and LtRt / LoRo

+ all of those in 25fps, 24fps, 23.98fps

That's pretty standard stuff, but it eats up A LOT of time (and money) that we'd much rather spend on more creative things. While post sound budgets kept shrinking, demands for deliverables got more and more.

Being able to just hand over a PT-session of the final mix and be done with it would be a godsend.

I think most think like you about being creative.

In reality if a studio doesn’t get deliverables they cannot sell anything so in all intends and purposes l, deliverables are equally as important as the creative part. It’s lien going to guitar center and there are no guitars but a employee tells you they have the most amazing blue Gibson... without the guitar guitar center cannot del anything.

Anyways... besides my dumb comment.. the deliverables and session are different things.
If you are mixing a show or movie the studio wants the deliverables a certain way. The session is only for backup purposes so they can send it to you later if something happens.
No one will open your or anyone’s mixing session. Everyone knows that it would have tons of plugins and system specific issues that would render it useless.

The session being talked about for tv is for foreign dubbers. Which every character Vo on its own track so no more than 8-12 mono tracks, 5.1 me and mix. So very very different.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
That certainly could be. I've mostly dealt with TV studios in the syndication area of things (aka reruns) and I've never encountered anyone who knew much in the technical sense. But they'd be better at their jobs if they did.
It’s a mix bunch. A lot come from places like technicolor, Fotokem, deluxe etc. Others come from the business side who later talk to the tech people (who are very good btw) But yes there are plenty of times where I thought the same. If they knew more basic audio and post info thing would flow easier. Specially on the last decade with the transition away from tape and into files and also the introduction of the loudness specs.
But sometimes just minor obvious stuff like Pam vs ntsc and 48 vs 44.1.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #66
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Originally Posted by Airon View Post
I'm mixing a bunch of German dubs for a Netflix series and just received a new requirement from Netflix(see quote below) to deliver the Protools mixing session. The fun part is that I don't use Protools for mixing. I use Reaper for mixing shows.


They apparently don't mind just receiving the session without plugins either, so I'm quite curious as to what they hope to get out of this.

Those requirements seem to point to them wanting this for trailers, but the dialogue stem should cover that too.

I'll include 5.1 output of each of my reverb/fx tracks in the package. My current strategies for the dialogue tracks from which I'll have to pick one are
  • consolidate all fx/stretching on all clips and convert to PT session via AATranslator

  • freeze the dialogue tracks, convert them to a Protools session via AATranslator, strip-silence. That would thus include all the actual mix work.

  • or just do a playout of every dialogue track to mono(they're all centre for the show), 5.1 of each reverb/fx send and build a PT session from the PM/ME/other stuff and the playout tracks, strip silence dia tracks. Almost identical to previous approach, except there might be a tiny bit of extra volume automation here and there.

I guess they wanted something to fall back on, but I haven't talked to anyone at Netflix about this yet.


Does anyone know more about this ?



The full quote of these new requirements.
More of this crap.......in the cue business a few years back, all of a sudden it wasn't about cues anymore, it was about STEMS, with a ****load of metadata, the end game of which is that what we were REALLY giving them were "Let the editor make his own cue" kits

If I could go back I'd tell them to piss off with the stems, it crossed a line that didn't need to be crossed, they were asking for MORE and not paying MORE

I'd tell them to F**K O*F with their PT sessions unless they want to pay you an hourly rate for general engineering on top of your fee for everything else, these people don't respect your time, they'll get some stupid whim like "Oh, we want to have everything in PT sessions....just BECAUSE, tell them to give us THAT."

F**K Y*U! You want more? PAY ME FOR MORE!

And before anyone says it....if that's enough to lose the gig, then you don't want to in that business, it is harsh, but that's the truth

One more time because it feels good......everyone SING ALONG! You know the words!

F**K Y*U! PAY ME!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
I think most think like you about being creative.

In reality if a studio doesn’t get deliverables they cannot sell anything so in all intends and purposes l, deliverables are equally as important as the creative part. It’s lien going to guitar center and there are no guitars but a employee tells you they have the most amazing blue Gibson... without the guitar guitar center cannot del anything.
I get what you’re trying to say, but that’s really not the same thing. It’s more like: The manufacturer delivers that amazing blue Gibson to the re-seller, but also already throws in all possible spare parts and components in all colors and sizes so they can rebuild that guitar to taste for different markets and customers, and they won’t have to call up the manufacturer again. I wasn’t saying deliverables aren’t important, neither did I say it doesn’t make sense for the studio or world sales to ask for them (it actually does make a LOT of sense). I was merely stating the fact that, while we get ever growing lists of deliverables every year for every possible and impossible scenario (on indie movies with tiny budgets that might not even see a foreign release & dub anyway), the post budgets stay the same or shrink, so we will have to cut corners somewhere else - usually at the creative end of things.
So it simply boils down to me complaining about money.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
If I could go back I'd tell them to piss off with the stems, it crossed a line that didn't need to be crossed, they were asking for MORE and not paying MORE...
Yes, doing stems means more work. But handing over the session isn't. Or it shouldn't be, if you've been tidying up as you go.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Yes, doing stems means more work. But handing over the session isn't. Or it shouldn't be, if you've been tidying up as you go.
Problem I see when handing over just an "everything-session" instead of stems is that an M&E mix (for example) is an actual mix with creative decisions. It's not a simple "just mute all the dialogue" run through and fill the gaps.

Often there are fairly complex decisions to take. What should be kept tied in as per director's wish and what to put on optionals. It can be very difficult to do for someone who wasn't involved with the original mix and no editor attending who's familiar with the particularities of a complex project.

I don't think it makes sense to just hand them over everything and then some "factory" deals with "extracting" an M&E and all the other stuff.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Problem I see when handing over just an "everything-session" instead of stems...
I thought the issue was handing over the session in addition to stems. Having just the session would be next to useless.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I thought the issue was handing over the session in addition to stems. Having just the session would be next to useless.
Yes agree, my comment was more towards the notion: "one day we'll just hand over the original session and someone else can just help himself creating what's needed" as vision of a future better way of doing it. But maybe I misunderstood.

Maybe one day when mixes are truly object based and not just tape-machines with panning automation called "objects" this could come true.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #72
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
More of this crap.......in the cue business a few years back, all of a sudden it wasn't about cues anymore, it was about STEMS, with a ****load of metadata, the end game of which is that what we were REALLY giving them were "Let the editor make his own cue" kits

If I could go back I'd tell them to piss off with the stems, it crossed a line that didn't need to be crossed, they were asking for MORE and not paying MORE

I'd tell them to F**K O*F with their PT sessions unless they want to pay you an hourly rate for general engineering on top of your fee for everything else, these people don't respect your time, they'll get some stupid whim like "Oh, we want to have everything in PT sessions....just BECAUSE, tell them to give us THAT."

F**K Y*U! You want more? PAY ME FOR MORE!

And before anyone says it....if that's enough to lose the gig, then you don't want to in that business, it is harsh, but that's the truth

One more time because it feels good......everyone SING ALONG! You know the words!

F**K Y*U! PAY ME!
Do like me, charge by the hour. Problem solved.

Alistair
Old 2 weeks ago
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuG View Post
I get what you’re trying to say, but that’s really not the same thing. It’s more like: The manufacturer delivers that amazing blue Gibson to the re-seller, but also already throws in all possible spare parts and components in all colors and sizes so they can rebuild that guitar to taste for different markets and customers, and they won’t have to call up the manufacturer again. I wasn’t saying deliverables aren’t important, neither did I say it doesn’t make sense for the studio or world sales to ask for them (it actually does make a LOT of sense). I was merely stating the fact that, while we get ever growing lists of deliverables every year for every possible and impossible scenario (on indie movies with tiny budgets that might not even see a foreign release & dub anyway), the post budgets stay the same or shrink, so we will have to cut corners somewhere else - usually at the creative end of things.
So it simply boils down to me complaining about money.
I haven't dealt w too many variables in the specs. only those new atoms and 10.1 and 7.1 and some newer things.
Normally the loudness standards and pal/ntsc specs are done after deliverables are submitted. but that doesn't mean It doesn't happen.

My guess its that as network tv shows have a spec for the initial air and also another one for the distributor. and indie films since they don't get distribution sometimes or hold off on territories then the producers just grab a bunch of specs to make sure everyone is happy with the audio afterwards.

for tv network shows I remember there used to be a set of split 5.1 DME and another set for the same thing but with fully filled M&E on the effects. to me that was redundant.

It helps understand why they ask so much and also post on forums so we all know and maybe the reason matches then inform the producer about certain things that might ease some issues.

and yes money sure has been an issue in post. I remember working in NYC around 2003 when pro tools and home DAWs started replacing big studios.. and one by one all the studios there shut down.
Its hard to sell the deliverables as a separate item but it might help talk it as soon as possible and mentioned that the deal is for the normal deliverables. (split 5.1 DME and stereo counterpart) fully filled M&E on another deal. etc.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Problem I see when handing over just an "everything-session" instead of stems is that an M&E mix (for example) is an actual mix with creative decisions. It's not a simple "just mute all the dialogue" run through and fill the gaps.

Often there are fairly complex decisions to take. What should be kept tied in as per director's wish and what to put on optionals. It can be very difficult to do for someone who wasn't involved with the original mix and no editor attending who's familiar with the particularities of a complex project.

I don't think it makes sense to just hand them over everything and then some "factory" deals with "extracting" an M&E and all the other stuff.
Im going to quote the initial post which also stated about delivering the session:

"I'm mixing a bunch of German dubs for a Netflix series.."


This is not the same as the ORIGINAL ENGLISH MIX session which everyone seems to be compiling about and I keep quoting people.
The German dubs doesn't have FX or music or different dialogue location separate elements. it has one 5.1 M&E stem and about 8-12 tracks of mono VO often recorded with fx on them all at the same level.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post

Often there are fairly complex decisions to take. What should be kept tied in as per director's wish and what to put on optionals. It can be very difficult to do for someone who wasn't involved with the original mix and no editor attending who's familiar with the particularities of a complex project.

I don't think it makes sense to just hand them over everything and then some "factory" deals with "extracting" an M&E and all the other stuff.

The directors doesn't know anything about optionals. They just are guessing based on what the distributors/producers have told them.

The optionals are for the dubbers. IF you know how a dubber thinks and know how they use them then YOU tell the director what goes on the optionals. IF you read the specs for optionals then thats exactly what they say.

If you are not delivering a fully filled M&E then another studio will do it and you might not be any part of that process. Thats how it goes so if you think there is a chance of international distribution then I would suggest to strike a deal to do it.
Old 1 week ago
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
The directors doesn't know anything about optionals. They just are guessing based on what the distributors/producers have told them.

The optionals are for the dubbers. IF you know how a dubber thinks and know how they use them then YOU tell the director what goes on the optionals. IF you read the specs for optionals then thats exactly what they say.
Of course., But:
I've been on numerous projects where the director asked the team to feed "foreign" languages into the M&E so it's not up the foreign version mixer to decide what goes into the dubbed mix and what doesn't. Some are actually very particular about this. Some personally have written intros for the M&E road-map to stress that certain dialogue / breaths etc. are not on optionals. It's a creative decision not a technical one. Of course it's still possible to remove those things after the fact but it's really against what the director wanted.

My point is: It's hard and sometimes impossible for a third person to decide what goes on optionals and what doesn't. Has nothing to do with skills or qualification. Often you need detailed knowledge of the original mix and intention to make the right choices.
Old 1 week ago
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
Im going to quote the initial post which also stated about delivering the session:

"I'm mixing a bunch of German dubs for a Netflix series.."


This is not the same as the ORIGINAL ENGLISH MIX session which everyone seems to be compiling about and I keep quoting people.
The German dubs doesn't have FX or music or different dialogue location separate elements. it has one 5.1 M&E stem and about 8-12 tracks of mono VO often recorded with fx on them all at the same level.
I know that, it was a response to other comments after the thread had gone off-topic and I wrote before why I think NF might want your German dub session.
Old 1 week ago
  #78
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
again... and its going to be very hard to respond each time its mentioned.. but this spec is not for English mix/original mix.. this spec is for foreign dubbing ONLY.
And the FX and music and original English dialog wouldn't be touched.
Exactly.

I mentioned adding FX to a dub, but that was actually in response to QC. They paid for it and all was fine.

In German TV dubs it was not unusual to add extra backgrounds, especially local stuff, as TV M&E were often quite thin. I once setup some MFX3+ stations for a dub house and was amazed how good their self-produced library was and how many shows they would add stuff to, just to match the original.

In my case, the M&E had holes that needed to be filled. Just chaos in some regards. The folks producing the original mix having too little time/money to complete it on time. Stuff slipped. I almost never see this happening, but there it is.

I've handed in three episode sessions of strip-silenced frozen dialogue tracks, plus any extras, print master and M&E. I have not heard back from Netflix or anyone else regarding these sessions.

I created them with the craftsperson down the line in mind. It includes documentaiton of what goes where if it isn't absolutely obvious. They might need to balance the volume a little, since the final mix is always loudness normalized, but that's about as complex as it gets. Plus, the sessions are all backed up, always, multiple times.

But yeah, it'll cost them up 30-60 minutes of my time to do this per session, and it'll have to be included in calculations from now on.
Old 1 week ago
  #79
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Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
P It's not a simple "just mute all the dialogue" run through and fill the gaps.
Actually, yes it is nowadays.
As we will get M+E's back if they're in fact not identical to the original mix minus the english language.
Old 1 week ago
  #80
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Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Actually, yes it is nowadays.
As we will get M+E's back if they're in fact not identical to the original mix minus the english language.

"Mix minus English" and "Fully filled M&E" sound like two distinct deliverables to me.
Old 1 week ago
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
"Mix minus English" and "Fully filled M&E" sound like two distinct deliverables to me.
I didn't mean to say a mix minus english delivery.
I meant to say, it has to sound identical to the original mix, minus any english.
Old 1 week ago
  #82
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Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I didn't mean to say a mix minus english delivery.
I meant to say, it has to sound identical to the original mix, minus any english.
Right, but my point is, I dunno how such an element could pass QC as an M&E, clients often demand you drop foley from the domestic that foreigns demand.
Old 1 week ago
  #83
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Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
Right, but my point is, I dunno how such an element could pass QC as an M&E, clients often demand you drop foley from the domestic that foreigns demand.
We use foley in the domestic mix where its needed, even though theres a fully filled foley track. Then augment the Foreign with the foley where needed. Salvaging as much production effects from the production dialog as we can.

The m+e is a mirror of the domestic, not Vice Versa.
Old 1 week ago
  #84
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Sorry to "half hi-jack" the thread, just wanted to ask you Hench - do your editors prepare a carefully split PFX edit and dia tracks (nearly) only contain dialogue, so you jump between a strong PFX track and individual dia elements during mixing, or do you have a pretty consistent, continuous production sound edit (I remember you mentioning you prefer few tracks) and during M+E mix copy/split your dia mix off to PFX for the M+E, filling in around dialogue as you go?

I was just wondering in terms of your time... I feel like I have faster dia edit and premixing/mixing having fewer, more flowing tracks for the domestic mix. Then I duplicate this "dialogue" after the final domestic mix onto "for M+E" tracks and go through to "get rid of" the spoken word for the M+E.

With denoising, crossfading (which offsets noise reduction again), notching etc. I find it is often more of a battle jumping between very disected PFX and DIA.
Then again - you are using re-assign busses, I haven't tried this myself - yet. (You would need mirrored re-assign bus processing on Dia and PFX(->to FX) too, right?)

Hijack off
Old 1 week ago
  #85
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Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
If you are not delivering a fully filled M&E then another studio will do it and you might not be any part of that process. Thats how it goes so if you think there is a chance of international distribution then I would suggest to strike a deal to do it.
Speaking from a low-budget point of view I'd much rather another studio get paid to do an M&E than do it myself for nothing. And that's why my deals for the past few years have excluded the M&E if the budget is too low. This is often for films that have a little money for post but have no distribution yet. I make it clear that they won't be able to sell it without further work and I'd be happy to do it down the line if they get more money. If I don't ever hear from them again at least I didn't give away my time and resources.
Old 1 week ago
  #86
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Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
Speaking from a low-budget point of view I'd much rather another studio get paid to do an M&E than do it myself for nothing. And that's why my deals for the past few years have excluded the M&E if the budget is too low. This is often for films that have a little money for post but have no distribution yet. I make it clear that they won't be able to sell it without further work and I'd be happy to do it down the line if they get more money. If I don't ever hear from them again at least I didn't give away my time and resources.
thats a very good thing to do. and also selling it like itll suck down the line if they dont have the same mixer

what many studios do here in burbank...for medium/high budgets. is that there is a team who do foley for the whole show, hard fx for the whole show and background atmosphere for the whole show. and all done muting the production track (and grabbing some pfx of course). once the english mix is approved then its just an extra day (8rs) of mixing the fully filled M&E becuase its just adding in the bckgrounds and more foley and fx.
still, if its low budget then spending all that time editing wall to wall background atmos and full foley etc for the enlgish mix that might not be used is way too much time spent.
Old 1 week ago
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Mottl View Post
Sorry to "half hi-jack" the thread, just wanted to ask you Hench - do your editors prepare a carefully split PFX edit and dia tracks (nearly) only contain dialogue, so you jump between a strong PFX track and individual dia elements during mixing, or do you have a pretty consistent, continuous production sound edit (I remember you mentioning you prefer few tracks) and during M+E mix copy/split your dia mix off to PFX for the M+E, filling in around dialogue as you go?

I was just wondering in terms of your time... I feel like I have faster dia edit and premixing/mixing having fewer, more flowing tracks for the domestic mix. Then I duplicate this "dialogue" after the final domestic mix onto "for M+E" tracks and go through to "get rid of" the spoken word for the M+E.

With denoising, crossfading (which offsets noise reduction again), notching etc. I find it is often more of a battle jumping between very disected PFX and DIA.
Then again - you are using re-assign busses, I haven't tried this myself - yet. (You would need mirrored re-assign bus processing on Dia and PFX(->to FX) too, right?)

Hijack off
normally the dialog editor just adds in a pfx track all those elements that are in prodcution tracks that are fx and add long fades.. but for the M&E mixing the mixer will borrow from the english mix anything that doesnt have any dialogue.
helps in making it more real and sounding more like the english.
Old 1 week ago
  #88
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Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
Speaking from a low-budget point of view I'd much rather another studio get paid to do an M&E than do it myself for nothing. And that's why my deals for the past few years have excluded the M&E if the budget is too low. This is often for films that have a little money for post but have no distribution yet. I make it clear that they won't be able to sell it without further work and I'd be happy to do it down the line if they get more money. If I don't ever hear from them again at least I didn't give away my time and resources.
Yah this. Often the filmmakers have no idea what might be required and kind of don't want to hear much about it while they are trying to finish the original version for their premiere or first delivery. I leave some back doors open but the heavy lifting has to wait for more $ to arrive (and time to be avail). I make sure they understand that if our deal did not include fully filled M+E or foreign spec deliverables then I'm not doing them. My issue is that it is sometimes years later that a sale is made, and thus the work of getting to what they now want is that much harder.
Old 6 days ago
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Mottl View Post
Sorry to "half hi-jack" the thread, just wanted to ask you Hench - do your editors prepare a carefully split PFX edit and dia tracks (nearly) only contain dialogue, so you jump between a strong PFX track and individual dia elements during mixing, or do you have a pretty consistent, continuous production sound edit (I remember you mentioning you prefer few tracks) and during M+E mix copy/split your dia mix off to PFX for the M+E, filling in around dialogue as you go?

I was just wondering in terms of your time... I feel like I have faster dia edit and premixing/mixing having fewer, more flowing tracks for the domestic mix. Then I duplicate this "dialogue" after the final domestic mix onto "for M+E" tracks and go through to "get rid of" the spoken word for the M+E.

With denoising, crossfading (which offsets noise reduction again), notching etc. I find it is often more of a battle jumping between very disected PFX and DIA.
Then again - you are using re-assign busses, I haven't tried this myself - yet. (You would need mirrored re-assign bus processing on Dia and PFX(->to FX) too, right?)

Hijack off
Yes, they will split of some pfx. But a lot is how you described it, PFX being out of the DX mix.
I like it tyatwvay for the same reason. Much easier to go through the center DX stem, and pull all themixed, cleaned up pfx from that, thna gouging though and trying to get some noisy unfixed pfx tracks to work in the m+e,
Old 6 days ago
  #90
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Interesting discussion.
We think the “opposite” to Hench.

I really don’t want to hear dialog processed sound from the dialog bus that isn’t dialog and get that pushed to the MNE. Because most of the time it sounds the way it does because I want the dx to sound a certain way. And if you remove the dialog from the dialog track and send the remains to the MNE mix it will not sound the same as the processing no longer reacts to the dialog so it will still sound different. And yes this means we do some extra prep work fixing the pfx, they are never just sent raw with camera noise whines etc to the mix.
So we do a pretty strict pfx separation. This does not mean that the dx track is just snippets of dialog lines, it still needs to sound coherent, but in our workflow most of the time there is nothing but checking to do to create the MNE. And the occasional rebuild of a baby crying in dialog track etc, or a certain fill sound only being added for MNE. But most scenes require no work at all after/during the mix for MNE preparation.
This might not have worked if we weren’t a team working together for most of what we do (with mostly reoccurring freelancers). But it is very efficient as everything we have done for the last few years always get sold internationally. So there is always the need for a full MNE.

I mean for the dialog bus (at least for TV) de-noising and level control is set for dialog, not primarily for the footsteps or other non dx sounds.
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