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JBL LSR 6312 Sub for my LSR 4328s Studio Monitors
Old 30th November 2017
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

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JBL LSR 6312 Sub for my LSR 4328s

Anyone have thoughts on this pairing? The sub they originally made to go with the 4328s is discontinued
Old 30th November 2017
  #2
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The JBL 6312 is the best part of your set up. Use it . It will work fine if you
calibrate your system.
Old 30th November 2017
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
The JBL 6312 is the best part of your set up. Use it . It will work fine if you
calibrate your system.
Thanks for the comment - if it’s helpful, this is for a small room (10x12 or so) not treated acoustically but only being used to edit fx and design so I’m not mixing but I do need to make sure my mixes translate.

I’m happy to save the money but my budget is 3k if there is a better option out there I’d love to hear.

Otherwise maybe the 6312 is the way to go?

Thanks!
Old 1st December 2017
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breaktheory View Post
Thanks for the comment - if it’s helpful, this is for a small room (10x12 or so) not treated acoustically but only being used to edit fx and design so I’m not mixing but I do need to make sure my mixes translate.

I’m happy to save the money but my budget is 3k if there is a better option out there I’d love to hear.

Otherwise maybe the 6312 is the way to go?

Thanks!

Dr. Sound what do you think about the predecessor 4312 sub? It would be the actual sub intended for my 4328 setup - I see one on eBay for $650
Old 1st December 2017
  #5
Used both a bunch. Either would be fine in your setup and size room. They'll have plenty of headroom. Just got to calibrate the level correctly and then see how it's translating. Without acoustic treatment it is going to be tough, bass is the most problematic, especially in small room. Just grab either one at the better price.
Old 2nd December 2017
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Smith View Post
Used both a bunch. Either would be fine in your setup and size room. They'll have plenty of headroom. Just got to calibrate the level correctly and then see how it's translating. Without acoustic treatment it is going to be tough, bass is the most problematic, especially in small room. Just grab either one at the better price.
Thank you!

Do you happen to know if the 6312 is backwards compatible with the RMC on the 4328s I have set up as my mains?
Old 2nd December 2017
  #7
Not sure. Never used the included RMC. It's tuning capabilities are quite basic and limited. Reach out to JBL support. They're helpful.
Old 8th December 2017
  #8
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NReichman's Avatar
 

If you already have HiQNet running on your 4300 speakers, you'll be disappointed with the 6312 sub. It won't join the network. The 4312 sub can join the network. In theory, the 6300 series is a more acoustically advanced system, but the 4300's network control and auto RMC functionality is far better. It also allows bass-management across all channels.

Marti is right though, it will work fine if you calibrate, you just won't have the fancy features.
Old 9th December 2017
  #9
Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by NReichman View Post
If you already have HiQNet running on your 4300 speakers, you'll be disappointed with the 6312 sub. It won't join the network. The 4312 sub can join the network. In theory, the 6300 series is a more acoustically advanced system, but the 4300's network control and auto RMC functionality is far better. It also allows bass-management across all channels.

Marti is right though, it will work fine if you calibrate, you just won't have the fancy features.
Oh that’s a good point. If you’re using the remote included with the JBLs definitely get the matching sub. If not and your using a monitor controller, then either should be okay.
Old 9th December 2017
  #10
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While we're chatting JBL network, I can't find any info about using the old HiQNet speakers along with the new HiQNet speakers (705, 708) and Intonato. Anyone doing this?
Old 27th December 2017
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Smith View Post
Oh that’s a good point. If you’re using the remote included with the JBLs definitely get the matching sub. If not and your using a monitor controller, then either should be okay.
I actually ended up with a 6312 - I couldn’t find a 4312 and got the 6312 for 1100 used - it doesn’t link up w the whole network the other speakers do unfortunately but I use my interface for volume control - I would love some advice on Calibrating the sub though - I’d like my entire setup to run at a steady 79 but I’ve never calibrated using the full 5.1 before
Old 27th December 2017
  #12
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NReichman's Avatar
 

Quote:
I would love some advice on Calibrating the sub though - I’d like my entire setup to run at a steady 79 but I’ve never calibrated using the full 5.1 before
Lots of advice in the Stickies here and in other threads about calibrating. I like the quick setup section of the ATSC A/85 doc here:

A/85 – Techniques for Establishing and Maintaining Audio Loudness for Digital Television - ATSC

Read the whole thing, but if you're in a rush, skip to page 35, download the test signals noted in the doc, and use your SPL meter to do it. Post back here if you get stuck.
Old 28th December 2017
  #13
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Thanks - I'm checking it out now...I just want to mention that I'm not running my LCR through the SUB - it's used purely to handle my LFE channel.

Does this make a difference as to how I would be calibrating?

The satellites as you know have built in volume...would you suggest that for calibration purposes I turn the speakers to max volume and do my volume adjustment through my audio interface? I have typically run the audio interface at maximum out with the speakers on -15 but maybe I'm doing things backwards

Thanks !
Old 5th January 2018
  #14
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Sorry for the delay getting back to you. Maybe you have it all figured out now. But in case you don't:

Quote:
Thanks - I'm checking it out now...I just want to mention that I'm not running my LCR through the SUB - it's used purely to handle my LFE channel.
I've listened to the 4328s w/ and w/o bass management. I respectfully disagree. Unless you have awesome satellites, you probably should run with bass management on.

Quote:
Does this make a difference as to how I would be calibrating?
Yes. I'm not sure the system will hit spec with the ATSC subwoofer (filtered) pink noise w/o bass management. Maybe it will.

Quote:
The satellites as you know have built in volume...would you suggest that for calibration purposes I turn the speakers to max volume and do my volume adjustment through my audio interface? I have typically run the audio interface at maximum out with the speakers on -15 but maybe I'm doing things backwards
I prefer running the audio interfaces all the way up and using a monitor controller or the built-in JBL volume control. But the sub won't track the built-in JBL control, so your idea of turning the speakers all the way up is probably fine. Standard gain-staging rules regarding D/A and A/D conversion apply (obviously).
Old 10th January 2018
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by NReichman View Post
Sorry for the delay getting back to you. Maybe you have it all figured out now. But in case you don't:



I've listened to the 4328s w/ and w/o bass management. I respectfully disagree. Unless you have awesome satellites, you probably should run with bass management on.



Yes. I'm not sure the system will hit spec with the ATSC subwoofer (filtered) pink noise w/o bass management. Maybe it will.



I prefer running the audio interfaces all the way up and using a monitor controller or the built-in JBL volume control. But the sub won't track the built-in JBL control, so your idea of turning the speakers all the way up is probably fine. Standard gain-staging rules regarding D/A and A/D conversion apply (obviously).
Thanks Nathan!

when I said it’s used purely for LFE I just meant that was my intended used. Adding the .1 is new for me as I’ve always had issues with neighbors - most of what I cut is TV and the LFE is usually used (at least in the shows I work on) for the occasional sweetener on dedicated LFE tracks. Most of the editors I work with are setup this same way so I decided to follow suit.

if I did decide to go the bass management route what additional hardware would I be looking at (or do you mean just setting it up through the sub) it would be nice to have a controller that would allow both bass management and room level control - I have no idea what SPl I’m running at as I’ve never calibrated my noisy apartment.

My fear is that working with a sub to monitor my low end, my sessions aren’t going to translate to the stage as my room is being used only for editorial and basic premixing. I don’t want to presume I’m getting heavy low end and when it hits the stage it’s actually lacking because I was tricked by the sub...

Your thought are very much appreciated!
Old 10th January 2018
  #16
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Quote:
if I did decide to go the bass management route what additional hardware would I be looking at (or do you mean just setting it up through the sub) it would be nice to have a controller that would allow both bass management and room level control - I have no idea what SPl I’m running at as I’ve never calibrated my noisy apartment.

My fear is that working with a sub to monitor my low end, my sessions aren’t going to translate to the stage as my room is being used only for editorial and basic premixing. I don’t want to presume I’m getting heavy low end and when it hits the stage it’s actually lacking because I was tricked by the sub...
Your sub should handle bass management. Most JBL and Genelec subs do. I think the 6312 manages LCR. As far as calibration, look back at my ATSC link and the stickies in this forum. (buy a cheap SPL meter)

Dan and Marti are heavies on this list, so I'd like them to chime in, but my recommendation is don't play mental games. Try to get an accurate system at all frequencies. My system running with bass management on lets me hear problems in the low frequencies that I might miss if I was only using satellites. Passing trucks, mic bumps, plosives... But on the other hand, if your room is only editorial, then the re-recording mixer's job is to fix what you send them, so work in whatever way is best for you.
Old 10th January 2018
  #17
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by NReichman View Post
Your sub should handle bass management. Most JBL and Genelec subs do. I think the 6312 manages LCR. As far as calibration, look back at my ATSC link and the stickies in this forum. (buy a cheap SPL meter)

Dan and Marti are heavies on this list, so I'd like them to chime in, but my recommendation is don't play mental games. Try to get an accurate system at all frequencies. My system running with bass management on lets me hear problems in the low frequencies that I might miss if I was only using satellites. Passing trucks, mic bumps, plosives... But on the other hand, if your room is only editorial, then the re-recording mixer's job is to fix what you send them, so work in whatever way is best for you.
I think I’ve probably fallen into a comfort zone monitoring through satellites exclusively - the reason for all of this studio expansion is that I’m moving into a house with a proper dedicated studio space.

It might be time to really set my room up for proper monitoring with a sub.

I have my satellites running with RMC right now and it noticeably tightens the sound for me - I don’t run RMC on the sub because I got it used without the kit!

Is it advisable to run not using RMC in a room that isn’t acoustically treated?

I would also love to hear Marti and Dan weigh in.
Old 10th January 2018
  #18
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Smith View Post
Used both a bunch. Either would be fine in your setup and size room. They'll have plenty of headroom. Just got to calibrate the level correctly and then see how it's translating. Without acoustic treatment it is going to be tough, bass is the most problematic, especially in small room. Just grab either one at the better price.
Re space - the new area is 9x20 or so with 8 feet ceilings - would you suggest turning off RMC and just calibrating using a meter?
Old 10th January 2018
  #19
Use RMC, don't use RMC, you'll have to find what translates best for you. Tuning a room is a craft. So without that experience, getting it to translate to other places will take some trial and error. But it can be done. RMC is a good place to start, but it is just another tool. There are monitor controllers and external processors that are extremely powerful that you can look into down the line. I've also made do with plugins on a master fader in Pro Tools. Whatever works. Make small changes and compare it with other places and then make more small changes. You'll creep up on a room that works for you. Similar with some musical instruments. You start tuning at one end and get to the other end, but you find you need to circle back around to the start. It isn't a start here and end there process, especially when you don't quite grasp it. Tuning one part of the room can throw other parts out of whack and cause more harm than good. But I wouldn't depend on only the RMC. You should be double checking with a SPL meter.

BUT FIRST, before you invest in anything additional I would strongly suggest you get some acoustic treatment. You mentioned that RMC helps tighten up the sound. You'll be BLOWN away by how much more acoustic treatment will do to tighten the sound, expose previously muddy areas, and bring overall balance to the spectrum. In my experience it has had BY FAR the greatest impact on the quality of my work for the price paid. Likely the biggest return on investment you'll see. I went the DIY route on my studio and other studios I've built and everyone has been extremely happy with the results. You'll want to get that into place first before you really try to tune your room. Tuning your room is the last step to push things a little bit to get it as good as can be. Acoustic treatment does the heavy lifting (outside of designing the room).

I always tell editors to er on the side of too much bass. When mixing it is easier to turn it down than to create something out of nothing. If you've designed something that sounds bombastic in your room, but your room is lying to you and you simply don't have it built into your sound design, it will either play thinner than expected or the mixer will have to add things. Always easier to mute than to add.

Your new space is a pretty good size. Should be great for editorial and has the potential to be work for smaller nearfield mixes. My room is slightly larger and I'm very happy with it for those purposes. Translates great to larger stages

In my personal experience, I've preferred to work without bass management. I've just found that it works better for me and has translated better. But it doesn't really matter what I think. You'll have to find what works best for you. But there is no "right" answer, only a multitude of options which may or may not work for your situation. Try it out. Those speakers have good frequency response. They might be lacking some in the low end, but your room, especially without acoustic treatment, is likely making up for that. In my similar sized room, I monitor at 79. That's what I'm used to and it work perfectly for me. TV mixes are within spec when mixing by ear. If you monitor at a similar level you should have plenty of headroom without needing bass management.

But all this comes after spending a lot of time with a lot of mixes and tweaking stuff over time. Don't be surprised when it doesn't translate perfectly or even well. But don't settle and keep chipping away at it. I had plenty of early work leave my room only to need some pretty global changes to get it to sit right on the dub stage. It takes time to get it dialed in. Hope that helps.

But you'll be fighting an uphill battle without acoustic treatment.

Last edited by Dan Smith; 10th January 2018 at 06:42 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 10th January 2018
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Smith View Post
Use RMC, don't use RMC, you'll have to find what translates best for you. Tuning a room is a craft. So without that experience, getting it to translate to other places will take some trial and error. But it can be done. RMC is a good place to start, but it is just another tool. There are monitor controllers and external processors that are extremely powerful that you can look into down the line. I've also made do with plugins on a master fader in Pro Tools. Whatever works. Make small changes and compare it with other places and then make more small changes. You'll creep up on a room that works for you. Similar with some musical instruments. You start tuning at one end and get to the other end, but you find you need to circle back around to the start. It isn't a start here and end there process, especially when you don't quite grasp it. Tuning one part of the room can throw other parts out of whack and cause more harm than good. But I wouldn't depend on only the RMC. You should be double checking with a SPL meter.

BUT FIRST, before you invest in anything additional I would strongly suggest you get some acoustic treatment. You mentioned that RMC helps tighten up the sound. You'll be BLOWN away by how much more acoustic treatment will do to tighten the sound, expose previously muddy areas, and bring overall balance to the spectrum. In my experience it has had BY FAR the greatest impact on the quality of my work for the price paid. Likely the biggest return on investment you'll see. I went the DIY route on my studio and other studios I've built and everyone has been extremely happy with the results. You'll want to get that into place first before you really try to tune your room. Tuning your room is the last step to push things a little bit to get it as good as can be. Acoustic treatment does the heavy lifting (outside of designing the room).

I always tell editors to er on the side of too much bass. When mixing it is easier to turn it down than to create something out of nothing. If you've designed something that sounds bombastic in your room, but your room is lying to you and you simply don't have it built into your sound design, it will either play thinner than expected or the mixer will have to add things. Always easier to mute than to add.

Your new space is a pretty good size. Should be great for editorial and has the potential to be work for smaller nearfield mixes. My room is slightly larger and I'm very happy with it for those purposes. Translates great to larger stages

In my personal experience, I've preferred to work without bass management. I've just found that it works better for me and has translated better. But it doesn't really matter what I think. You'll have to find what works best for you. But there is no "right" answer, only a multitude of options which may or may not work for your situation. Try it out. Those speakers have good frequency response. They might be lacking some in the low end, but your room, especially without acoustic treatment, is likely making up for that. In my similar sized room, I monitor at 79. That's what I'm used to and it work perfectly for me. TV mixes are within spec when mixing by ear. If you monitor at a similar level you should have plenty of headroom without needing bass management.

But all this comes after spending a lot of time with a lot of mixes and tweaking stuff over time. Don't be surprised when it doesn't translate perfectly or even well. But don't settle and keep chipping away at it. I had plenty of early work leave my room only to need some pretty global changes to get it to sit right on the dub stage. It takes time to get it dialed in. Hope that helps.

But you'll be fighting an uphill battle without acoustic treatment.
Thanks Dan!

A couple of questions...when you say you don’t use bass management do you mean that all LFE information is sent manually by you with no crossover point set? Your sub is connected only to your .1 out?

Second, I’m renting this space so I don’t want to spend too much on any customized treatment solution. Given my setup the most economical way to do this would be through paneling down the length of the side walls - I can probably do this for about $500 buying on Craigslist - is there any additional treatment you’d recommended for the wall behind my LCR?

Thanks - you guys are awesome being so helpful!
Old 10th January 2018
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by breaktheory View Post

A couple of questions...when you say you don’t use bass management do you mean that all LFE information is sent manually by you with no crossover point set? Your sub is connected only to your .1 out?
In terms of B-Chain: The subwoofer in my room is only receiving sounds from the LFE output in Pro Tools. There is no derived information going to it from the other speakers.

In terms of editorial: I have set of tracks that are only for LFE sound elements. Those tracks are routed directly to the LFE, so those clips are only heard there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by breaktheory View Post
Second, I’m renting this space so I don’t want to spend too much on any customized treatment solution. Given my setup the most economical way to do this would be through paneling down the length of the side walls - I can probably do this for about $500 buying on Craigslist - is there any additional treatment you’d recommended for the wall behind my LCR?
In my personal rooms I have only used the typical panel that you can hang like a picture frame. 4" thick. Great results in smaller editorial room. You should do some more research on panel placement, but generally the most important areas are the first reflection points and bass build up in corners. In my last room (smaller) I had a large panel across the front wall behind my LCR and I had them into the room a few feet, which helps. Then I had one panel on the ceiling between me and the LCR, two large panels on each side wall between me and the LCR and directly beside/a little behind, and a small one on the back wall. So it was deader in the front than rear. Good place to start.

If you're moderately handy you can build your own very cheaply. One weekend I built 6 32x48x4" panels for less than $350 in materials. But woodworking is a hobby of mine and I already had the tools.
Old 11th January 2018
  #22
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Smith View Post
In terms of B-Chain: The subwoofer in my room is only receiving sounds from the LFE output in Pro Tools. There is no derived information going to it from the other speakers.

In terms of editorial: I have set of tracks that are only for LFE sound elements. Those tracks are routed directly to the LFE, so those clips are only heard there.




In my personal rooms I have only used the typical panel that you can hang like a picture frame. 4" thick. Great results in smaller editorial room. You should do some more research on panel placement, but generally the most important areas are the first reflection points and bass build up in corners. In my last room (smaller) I had a large panel across the front wall behind my LCR and I had them into the room a few feet, which helps. Then I had one panel on the ceiling between me and the LCR, two large panels on each side wall between me and the LCR and directly beside/a little behind, and a small one on the back wall. So it was deader in the front than rear. Good place to start.

If you're moderately handy you can build your own very cheaply. One weekend I built 6 32x48x4" panels for less than $350 in materials. But woodworking is a hobby of mine and I already had the tools.
Ok that’s how I’m setup now - dedicated LFE tracks hitting the sub but these are generally things like gun shot explosion or general heavy impact sweeteners and DSN stuff - over the course of a 43 min action heavy show I will cut 20 LFE clips and usually short layers to sweeten overlapping audio. Do you find another use for them? Do you ever cut pure sub without it being a layer under other sounds?

Do you do often use the channel LFE fader during editorial? I’m generally expected to do basic panning around the room but since the sub is new to me I’ve never even had the option to use the LFE fader
Thanks man!
Old 11th January 2018
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breaktheory View Post
The satellites as you know have built in volume...would you suggest that for calibration purposes I turn the speakers to max volume and do my volume adjustment through my audio interface? I have typically run the audio interface at maximum out with the speakers on -15 but maybe I'm doing things backwards
Don't run the audio IO at MAX. You need proper gain structure for good, clean audio.

As a point of best standard practice, get a multi-meter
Fluke 117 Electricians True RMS Multimeter with Polyester Soft Carrying Case - - Amazon.com

Send a 1kHz Sine @-20 out a MONO output. Connect an XLR or TRS, connect the meter to pins 2 and 3. Turn the calibration pots until the Meter reads 1.228V RMS. Do this for each output.

Then, adjust the input trims on your speakers when you are running DOLBY PINK through the system and have your SLM to measure the proper dBC for your size room.

-20 1kHz Sine = 1.228V RMS = 0 VU = +4dBU
Old 11th January 2018
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by breaktheory View Post
Do you ever cut pure sub without it being a layer under other sounds?
Nope. I don't think I have never cut anything where the only sound was in the LFE. I use it for a sweetner, as you say. It's always a layer under something else. It is always a crapshoot if the LFE is even working and calibrated in a given theater or home setup. So I I just that if it is there an setup correct then it will just enhance the experience. It's the cherry on top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by breaktheory View Post
Do you do often use the channel LFE fader during editorial? I’m generally expected to do basic panning around the room but since the sub is new to me I’ve never even had the option to use the LFE fader
Thanks man!
Never. I want to make my intentions to the mixer as clear as day. So I have my LFE tracks labeled as such. If there is a sound that works in the main channels and some into the LFE I will copy it down and set the level accordingly. It is a lot easier for the mixer to find and adjust rather than hunting through what might be multiple layers to find which one(s) you sent to the LFE.

With that, I've found that when mixing the more I can set things up to be adjusted via faders the faster and better I can mix. Much easier and faster for me to balance a sound between the main channels and the LFE if they are all on faders in front of me. If one or two must be adjusted in the pan knob, I lose time digging in to get to it, even though I know exactly where it is on the console.

If you and your mixer are fine with you working that way, you certainly can. But for these reasons I prefer not to.
Old 20th January 2018
  #25
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Ok so I have everything setup now all outputs are on +4 and the satellites are on +4 -I set the sub to +4 and it just sounds too quiet - how do I determine the proper level?
Old 20th January 2018
  #26
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Old 7th March 2018
  #27
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
So I finally got acoustic treatment - 4” thick panels to the left and right and then a cloud 4x4 above - what a staggering difference...

I didn’t bother with RMC on the sub but now I’m finding that using RMC as I have for years on my 4328s gives me a boomy exaggerates bass response like I’m
Putting it through a Spotify dance mode eq - should I just abandon RMC as the room is now pretty well treated?
Old 7th March 2018
  #28
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Use RMC in conjunction with an SPL meter and calibration noise files. If the two are wildly different, then something weird is going on. Also, RMC does time correction which really helps, but you can turn off the bass-correction its doing if you think its wrong.
Old 9th March 2018
  #29
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
I didn’t know you could separate the two - I’ll give a shot...surprising how reversed everything became when panels went in - I think the cloud I’m putting in will make a huge difference
Old 11th March 2018
  #30
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by NReichman View Post
Use RMC in conjunction with an SPL meter and calibration noise files. If the two are wildly different, then something weird is going on. Also, RMC does time correction which really helps, but you can turn off the bass-correction its doing if you think its wrong.
When you say if the two are wildly different are you referring to the SPL meter reading before and after RMC?
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