The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Dialog Sonics
Old 22nd November 2017
  #1
Lives for gear
 
galaydees's Avatar
 

Dialog Sonics

Could really use a bit of help if any experts care to weigh in. Maybe a little esoteric but there is a dx ‘sound’ which I hear frequently. Might describe as dry, low mid gravel. Almost grainy. Most often heard on television. But elsewhere, too. Very stylized. Only started noticing In last couple years. An example...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iol22b5ady...ref_M.mp3?dl=0


An editor by trade but also dabble in sonics. Mixers I work with look at me funny when I bring this up. Traditional channels (eq,cmp,limiting,sat) have all led to dead ends. An allpass filter to get some phase lag in low mids gets me in ballpark. But I really need somebody who knows what’s what to set me straight.

What the heck am I missing, dangit?
Old 23rd November 2017
  #2
Lives for gear
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 

I am hearing compression, edgy EQ, and Cedar threshold pulled down too far ( too much processing). That's what leads to the dry sound.

Does that help?
Old 23rd November 2017
  #3
Lives for gear
 
galaydees's Avatar
 

Was wondering if Cedar contributed to the sound. Haven't been able to experiment with that box. If so, it has a lot of 'character'.
Old 23rd November 2017
  #4
Lives for gear
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaydees View Post
Was wondering if Cedar contributed to the sound. Haven't been able to experiment with that box. If so, it has a lot of 'character'.
Cedar is used on nearly every dub stage in Hollywood. Some Mixers use it exclusively while others like myself use it in conjunction with other Noise Reduction processing.
It sounded to me like your example had quite a bit of Cedar used, it sounded very dry which is not necessarily an indicator of a lot of processing but had some of that character.
Old 23rd November 2017
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Andrew Mottl's Avatar
 

As I don't regularly use a Cedar I cannot comment on that factor (Marti is an expert and master at his craft and art and probably correct), but this reminds me of issues we here in Europe often have with 24/25 fps conversion.
As this is a US mix I assume it might not be an option, but I was wondering - what is the source of this?
Any chance of pitch shifting / time stretching having happened in a frame rate conversion? As said, on your side of the Atlantic you have smaller differences between formats and it might not matter - or this comes from a UK DVD and might be affected.
Old 23rd November 2017
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
Oliver.Lucas's Avatar
I can hear noise reduction pumping in and out as well all some rather big level adjustments along the way.
I have noticed that in US american mixes I hear a lot more noise reduction come and go than in european/german mixes.
I think we tend to add more naturals/ambience and also copies of the origial noise to mask changes whereas the overseas colleagues use cedar more aggressively.
It's a matter of taste, really but I notice it a lot when watching programmes from the US.
Old 23rd November 2017
  #7
Lives for gear
 
galaydees's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Mottl View Post
As I don't regularly use a Cedar I cannot comment on that factor (Marti is an expert and master at his craft and art and probably correct), but this reminds me of issues we here in Europe often have with 24/25 fps conversion.
As this is a US mix I assume it might not be an option, but I was wondering - what is the source of this?
Any chance of pitch shifting / time stretching having happened in a frame rate conversion? As said, on your side of the Atlantic you have smaller differences between formats and it might not matter - or this comes from a UK DVD and might be affected.
Ripped from 23.98 master. Fairly confident no frame rate conversions. Again, this is a common, stylized sound heard all over popular media content in this country. There is a clear and unboxy yet very low mid centric quality that is very much an oxymoron. Boosting low mid resonances does opposite.
Old 23rd November 2017
  #8
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaydees View Post
Was wondering if Cedar contributed to the sound. Haven't been able to experiment with that box. If so, it has a lot of 'character'.
I've heard the over-Cedared sound described as "gargle." It seems to turn up a lot when people have to damage-control a lot of run-and-gun DX in a very short time, like in episodic reality TV. And yes, "character" is one way to put it.
Old 23rd November 2017
  #9
Lives for gear
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 

What is the name of the content and I'll ask the Re-Recording Mixer directly for you if I know them on what they typically use on their process chain?
Old 23rd November 2017
  #10
Lives for gear
 
loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I've heard the over-Cedared sound described as "gargle." It seems to turn up a lot when people have to damage-control a lot of run-and-gun DX in a very short time, like in episodic reality TV. And yes, "character" is one way to put it.
Notice the BG noise when they talk and how it diminishes in the gaps. I call it sloppy engineering!

Izotope RX can do a much better job, but I must say I do audiobooks and spoken word audio, not films. I like a more silent background, but that wouldn't work in sound for picture...
Old 23rd November 2017
  #11
Lives for gear
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
Notice the BG noise when they talk and how it diminishes in the gaps. I call it sloppy engineering!

Izotope RX can do a much better job, but I must say I do audiobooks and spoken word audio, not films. I like a more silent background, but that wouldn't work in sound for picture...
I disagree, it's not sloppy engineering, it's the reality of recording voices
out in the world instead of recording them with a mic 6" from their mouth in a controlled Voice Over Booth. Understand that we don't have picture to go with this sound example which would probably change your comments.
Old 23rd November 2017
  #12
Lives for gear
 
loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
I disagree, it's not sloppy engineering, it's the reality of recording voices
out in the world instead of recording them with a mic 6" from their mouth in a controlled Voice Over Booth. Understand that we don't have picture to go with this sound example which would probably change your comments.
True, sorry. Perhaps the pov was going back and forth on the faces. Maybe the BG going up and down was pefectly crafted!

However, a lot of my recording is in the field, but not dialog so I have outside noise too.

I usually use "new posts" when looking at GS so sorry if it was inappropriate.
Old 23rd November 2017
  #13
Lives for gear
 
galaydees's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
What is the name of the content and I'll ask the Re-Recording Mixer directly for you if I know them on what they typically use on their process chain?
PM'd you the content info Marti. Thanks a bunch!
Old 23rd November 2017
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
...I like a more silent background...
Everybody likes a more silent background! It just happens so rarely that you receive a noise-free production track.
That NR pumping is the reality we all have to live with.

As for the sonic quality, Doc nailed it in his first reply. When used aggressively in upper mid bands, Cedar DNS will reveal the noisy contents when the signal is sufficiently strong to "mask" the noise, and it will add this grainy quality as we hear it in the example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
Izotope RX can do a much better job
I wouldn't be so sure. Although RX can do some nice things, it doesn't come close to DNS in broadband NR.
Old 24th November 2017
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by galaydees View Post
Could really use a bit of help if any experts care to weigh in. Maybe a little esoteric but there is a dx ‘sound’ which I hear frequently. Might describe as dry, low mid gravel. Almost grainy. Most often heard on television. But elsewhere, too. Very stylized. Only started noticing In last couple years. An example...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iol22b5ady...ref_M.mp3?dl=0


An editor by trade but also dabble in sonics. Mixers I work with look at me funny when I bring this up. Traditional channels (eq,cmp,limiting,sat) have all led to dead ends. An allpass filter to get some phase lag in low mids gets me in ballpark. But I really need somebody who knows what’s what to set me straight.

What the heck am I missing, dangit?
Listening on my iphone...

The mid range grit may be from an Avid Pro multiband plug-in. Depending where the cross over points are it can make dialog sound gritty or digital. McDSP multiband had that sound. Almost like the bands didn’t add back together just right. Lots of processing going on. Grainy is a good description. Older plugins can Contribute to that sound.
Old 25th November 2017
  #16
Lives for gear
 

I only think you can get that sound with the vintage Cedar units.
You have to use a NOS connector cable for plugin control though to get the grainyness into the ballpark.
SCNR.
Maybe Cedar will become the post-business' autotune.
Old 25th November 2017
  #17
We do a lot of voice over work. Most of it, IMHO, sounds great but once in a while we get a voice over talent who has the "gravely voice" syndrome and no matter what I do in post processing or what mic I use he or she comes across with a "gravely voice" FWIW
Old 25th November 2017
  #18
Lives for gear
 
galaydees's Avatar
 

It may be unseemly but I admit to liking that grainy/dry sound. I think it's just the right amount of 'style' for the trailer world. And that's where I hear it most often.
Old 25th November 2017
  #19
Lives for gear
 
loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
We do a lot of voice over work. Most of it, IMHO, sounds great but once in a while we get a voice over talent who has the "gravely voice" syndrome and no matter what I do in post processing or what mic I use he or she comes across with a "gravely voice" FWIW
Well, at least you can claim to have an accurate representation!

I have the distinct pleasure of working with Peter Coyote over many years, and he has a sweet and sometimes slightly edgy voice. If he sounds gravelly, it is a character voice intentionally :-)
Old 25th November 2017
  #20
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

I think we've derailed a bit -- the Cedar "grainy" and VO-guy "gravelly" are way different things.

Then again, the stuff my Grandma fed the chickens was both grainy and a little bit gravelly. Maybe she was ahead of her time.
Old 25th November 2017
  #21
Lives for gear
 
minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I think we've derailed a bit -- the Cedar "grainy" and VO-guy "gravelly" are way different things.

Then again, the stuff my Grandma fed the chickens was both grainy and a little bit gravelly. Maybe she was ahead of her time.
Cedar Shingles?
Old 15th December 2019
  #22
Lives for gear
 
galaydees's Avatar
 

Need to bump this...would someone with a cedar box be willing to process a short dx file for me? Really want to nail down how the contours of this particular sound is achieved. Can get fairly close using an allpass array which was used to squeeze a few extra db of loudness in broadcast by making the signal a bit less asymmetrical.
Old 16th December 2019
  #23
Lives for gear
 
pethenis's Avatar
 

not sure if it's the "Cedar Sound". I have been on a similar search some time ago, because I couldn't reproduce that gravel, which to me sounded like something a colourful compressor could do. If we're talking about the same thing, I wanted that sound, liked it.

Concluded that the tonal/texture thing I was hearing simply wasn't there in the language I mix most frequently (Dutch). I do work for US agencies too and sometimes, with the right mic and voice, it's there.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

I think Peter nailed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piratepost View Post

The mid range grit may be from an Avid Pro multiband plug-in.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #25
Lives for gear
 
TVPostSound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by galaydees View Post
Need to bump this...would someone with a cedar box be willing to process a short dx file for me? Really want to nail down how the contours of this particular sound is achieved. Can get fairly close using an allpass array which was used to squeeze a few extra db of loudness in broadcast by making the signal a bit less asymmetrical.
I can certainly confirm that is a Cedar box.
I have a production mixer that uses the Cedar DNS 8D, and sounds just like this.
Its biting into the dialog.

I apologize, but I cant send you a file, if Netflix ever discovered I did, Id be f$%^

Listen to the male chef voice (Jacques) on Nailed It Christmas. "One fail two fail"
at 15:15
This was The Cedar DNS 8D used to remove the AC, and blast chillers.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #26
Lives for gear
 
galaydees's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVPostSound View Post
I can certainly confirm that is a Cedar box.
I apologize, but I cant send you a file, if Netflix ever discovered I did, Id be f$%^
Don’t doubt this sound comes from use of Cedar as several have said. Wanting to confirm this with a dialog track (provided by me from a 90 sec trailer) that has zero processing or nr (other than editing). Hoping someone with this box would be generous enough to run the track through a Cedar so I can put this to bed in my mind once and for all.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #27
Gear Nut
 
Mister_T's Avatar
 

PM me a link and I will get this back to you today.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #28
Lives for gear
 
galaydees's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_T View Post
PM me a link and I will get this back to you today.
PM'd
Old 4 weeks ago
  #29
Gear Nut
 
Mister_T's Avatar
 

These clips are already processed a lot. But I ran this through Cedar DNS One with the following settings:

Level 33.7
B1 : 0
B2 : -7.67
B3 : -8.40
B4 : -7.87
B5 : -11.11
B6 : -6.41

I will PM you the link.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #30
Lives for gear
 
galaydees's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_T View Post
These clips are already processed a lot. But I ran this through Cedar DNS One with the following settings:

Level 33.7
B1 : 0
B2 : -7.67
B3 : -8.40
B4 : -7.87
B5 : -11.11
B6 : -6.41

I will PM you the link.
Thanks Tom. Hopefully I can put this to rest, lol
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump