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The New Yamaha MMP1 Monitor Device
Old 28th October 2018
  #31
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Attached is a picture from the Yamaha MMP1 product page, and it made me wonder;
is Dante on the MMP1 restricted to 48kHz, can anyone confirm?
Attached Thumbnails
The New Yamaha MMP1 Monitor Device-mmp1_overview_signal_flow_1200.jpg  
Old 28th October 2018
  #32
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In the Operation Manual (pages 19 and 20 and elsewhere) it is inferred it is not. I can go greater than 96k

That diagram is showing 1-64 @ 48k because when you go up, you half the channels (1-32 @ 96k and 1-16 @192k)
There's mention of what happens to the mapping matrix as you go to higher sample rates for this reason. This is standard Dante behaviour.
The diagram is just being clear that you get 64 channels only at 48k (or lower).
Old 28th October 2018
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
In the Operation Manual (pages 19 and 20 and elsewhere) it is inferred it is not. I can go greater than 96k

That diagram is showing 1-64 @ 48k because when you go up, you half the channels (1-32 @ 96k and 1-16 @192k)
There's mention of what happens to the mapping matrix as you go to higher sample rates for this reason. This is standard Dante behaviour.
The diagram is just being clear that you get 64 channels only at 48k (or lower).
Thanks Pentagon. I downloaded the MMP1 editor, faked a setup in 96k, and indeed; the Dante channels were still there, albeit only 32 showed up instead of the 64 @ 48k .
Old 28th October 2018
  #34
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It would be handy if channels from the channel strip could be stereo linked, so that levels and EQ + compression of those channels work together. Am trying to get through to Yamaha Support on this as a feature request, but they seem to be hard to reach.
Old 4th April 2019
  #35
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For anyone stumbling on this thread, a firmware update changed the 50ms max lip sync delay to 300ms max.
Also, the lip sync delay is a global delay only for the main output (across all main output speakers)

The other delay is found in speaker management (not channels.) And I believe the max is still 30 ms for that one. I haven't seen a change.
Old 4th April 2019
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
For anyone stumbling on this thread, a firmware update changed the 50ms max lip sync delay to 300ms max.
Also, the lip sync delay is a global delay only for the main output (across all main output speakers)

The other delay is found in speaker management (not channels.) And I believe the max is still 30 ms for that one. I haven't seen a change.
Good call Pentagon, thanks for the update.

We are still considering this unit for our setup.

I've spoken with Yamaha support a while back and requested two things:

- increasing the speaker alignment delay to support at least 50 ms
- the possibility to stereo link the channel strips

They were considering it but nothing happened yet.

In the mean while we are looking into other solutions as well; the freshly released Merging Anubis looks interesting.
Old 18th April 2019
  #37
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is anyone using the MMP1 analog outs? I'm finding a tremendous amount of hiss (white noise) on the outputs. Cables, etc. do not seem to be the culprit and when the MMP1 changes modes (like flipping sample rates) it temporarily stops producing that white noise/hiss until it starts processing again.
Old 18th April 2019
  #38
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No issues whatsoever here. And most certainly not hiss. This thing is super quiet.

Fredo
Temple Of Tune
Belgium
Old 18th April 2019
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredo View Post
No issues whatsoever here. And most certainly not hiss. This thing is super quiet.

Fredo
Temple Of Tune
Belgium
Just to verify, you are using the analog outs to go to speakers?

If so and you have no noise, I may have a defective unit and will contact Yamaha for a replacement. It's very noticeable (and with 8 channels all having it, annoying)
Old 18th April 2019
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
is anyone using the MMP1 analog outs? I'm finding a tremendous amount of hiss (white noise) on the outputs. Cables, etc. do not seem to be the culprit and when the MMP1 changes modes (like flipping sample rates) it temporarily stops producing that white noise/hiss until it starts processing again.
sounds strange... - how do you feed signals into the unit and did you level match outputs to active speakers in the analog domain?
Old 18th April 2019
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
sounds strange... - how do you feed signals into the unit and did you level match outputs to active speakers in the analog domain?
Analog inputs.
But that doesn't matter --- even with no inputs connected the noise exists on the output channels.

Yes, the speakers are level matched, If we move the speakers' dsub to any other monitor controller box (we have a few in the racks) there are no issues. Only the MMP1 does it, And as I mentioned, the noise stops if the MMP1 has to change processing for any reason (like a sample rate change) and then comes back.

Measuring the change in noise floor, we're talking a shift of 20 dB per speaker channel by the MMP1. (measuring the output into an interface's input via analog, input measured going from -105 dBFs to -85 dBFs)
Old 18th April 2019
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Just to verify, you are using the analog outs to go to speakers?

If so and you have no noise, I may have a defective unit and will contact
Yes.

All 8 of them go to our lower level speakers (5.1/ 7.1).
We have another 8 send from the MMP1's AES to our old trusted Apogee AD8000 to power our high level speakers (Auro3D & Atmos)
There is absolutely no difference in noise. In fact, there isn't any.


Good luck!
Fredo
Old 18th April 2019
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Analog inputs.
But that doesn't matter --- even with no inputs connected the noise exists on the output channels.

Yes, the speakers are level matched, If we move the speakers' dsub to any other monitor controller box (we have a few in the racks) there are no issues. Only the MMP1 does it, And as I mentioned, the noise stops if the MMP1 has to change processing for any reason (like a sample rate change) and then comes back.

Measuring the change in noise floor, we're talking a shift of 20 dB per speaker channel by the MMP1. (measuring the output into an interface's input via analog, input measured going from -105 dBFs to -85 dBFs)
must be faulty then...

(i've been using multiple yamaha dme64n and 24n for many years in both installations and studios without any issues ever; i switched to lake processing though, still inside the dme64n and use euphonix and/or rme for conversion to analog)
Old 19th April 2019
  #44
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I use the MMP-1 Dante out, so not the analog outputs.
No problems whatsoever.
Although I noticed the output of the MMP-1 is very high level..
Old 19th April 2019
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janus View Post
...
Although I noticed the output of the MMP-1 is very high level..
How would that work?
Digital is digital, and analog has the norma -10dB / +4dB settings.
As said, I have n AD8000 alongside, and there is no difference whatsoever.

Fredo
Old 19th April 2019
  #46
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pretty hot analog output (+24dBu): not all acticve speakers/amps take that well without attenuation/impedance matching or they produce much hiss...
Old 14th July 2019
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
is anyone using the MMP1 analog outs? I'm finding a tremendous amount of hiss (white noise) on the outputs. Cables, etc. do not seem to be the culprit and when the MMP1 changes modes (like flipping sample rates) it temporarily stops producing that white noise/hiss until it starts processing again.
Hey Pentagon. I am experiencing the same hiss. My monitors were silent with the XMON and now they are just hissing away. I experience the same symptoms - hiss goes away when the MMP is off or doing an update but does not go away when the system is muted (or even muting individual channels or adjusting the trim level on the channels - the hiss remains) and it does not change in level if the master volume is increased or decreased. Wondering if I have a bad unit.

I am using powered ATC monitors as mains and Focals for surrounds. The hiss is present on every speaker and also on two channels sent for headphones, all using analog outs. At the moment I don't have any way to test it via dante or AES.

Would love to hear what you found out during your tests...
Old 14th July 2019
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noisefreak View Post
Hey Pentagon. I am experiencing the same hiss. My monitors were silent with the XMON and now they are just hissing away. I experience the same symptoms - hiss goes away when the MMP is off or doing an update but does not go away when the system is muted (or even muting individual channels or adjusting the trim level on the channels - the hiss remains) and it does not change in level if the master volume is increased or decreased. Wondering if I have a bad unit.

I am using powered ATC monitors as mains and Focals for surrounds. The hiss is present on every speaker and also on two channels sent for headphones, all using analog outs. At the moment I don't have any way to test it via dante or AES.

Would love to hear what you found out during your tests...
I worked extensively with Yamaha to get to the bottom of this and it comes down to that's just how bad the system is. No joke. There are some switches on the motherboard to change the gain (I think it comes as +18 and the switch changes it to +24) which Yamaha Japan thought was the issue. But it wasn't. And I demonstrated it to Yamaha in person and they agreed it was unworkable.

So the unit went back to Yamaha (2 of them in the end.)
There is no fix. It is a bad product if you are using their analogue outs. Yamaha Japan said their engineers would try to work on a firmware fix but couldn't promise a date (and we tried older firmwares and they all had the same problem.)

My advice: get rid of it. It was such a phenomenal waste of time in the end (especially when Yamaha's own people couldn't get it to work without the hiss in Japan or Los Angeles.)

(And of note: the Xmon, a QSC Qsys, the JBL Intonato, and a MTRX had none of these problems in the same room. We ended up going with MTRX + SPQ since it tied in best with the S6)
Old 14th July 2019
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
I worked extensively with Yamaha to get to the bottom of this and it comes down to that's just how bad the system is. No joke. There are some switches on the motherboard to change the gain (I think it comes as +18 and the switch changes it to +24) which Yamaha Japan thought was the issue. But it wasn't. And I demonstrated it to Yamaha in person and they agreed it was unworkable.

So the unit went back to Yamaha (2 of them in the end.)
There is no fix. It is a bad product if you are using their analogue outs. Yamaha Japan said their engineers would try to work on a firmware fix but couldn't promise a date (and we tried older firmwares and they all had the same problem.)

My advice: get rid of it. It was such a phenomenal waste of time in the end (especially when Yamaha's own people couldn't get it to work without the hiss in Japan or Los Angeles.)

(And of note: the Xmon, a QSC Qsys, the JBL Intonato, and a MTRX had none of these problems in the same room. We ended up going with MTRX + SPQ since it tied in best with the S6)
Damn, that’s disheartening to hear. I looked into the MTRX but just adding and spq card and 8out is somewhere about 9,300 so it’s a big step for a one man band like me.
I found the routing matrix confusing in the MMP, how is the DADmon/ProMon interface? Seems to offer a lot more control.
Old 14th July 2019
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noisefreak View Post
I found the routing matrix confusing in the MMP, how is the DADmon/ProMon interface? Seems to offer a lot more control.
The MMP is confusing -- too many tabs with irrational names (no standardization) for the same thing. Even the Yamaha guy of LA agreed the terms were confusing.

The DADman/ProMon has a lot of control but I know it can be confusing for some of the more in-depth features (I get calls all the time asking how to do certain things.) Top line functionality (setting up outputs, sources, etc) is very direct and easy to understand. And almost everything is do-able once you grow accustomed to it. And it makes more sense than the MMP.

(One thing I'd like for the MTRX is internal busses to allocate like RME's TotalMix, UAD's console, MOTU's CueMix, etc. Had a situation of a source coming in from another Pro Tools system via MADI into the MTRX. i could assign that incoming signal as a source for a Monitor A but could not send that to the same output as the Main CR output -- outputs can only be used once as destinations in ProMon. So ended up sending that Monitor A to the AES out, looping physically AES out to AES in on the MTRX to create my own "external" bus, then assigning the AES input signal as a source for the Main CR monitor controller so it could go to the main outputs. That way we could have Monitor A, B, C, D receiving input from a second system with easy to manage levels on the S6 monitor knobs. Would have been so much easier if we just had some internal busses inside the MTRX.)

One admission, I had been using a MTRX for over 2 years on my personal setup before one went into this particular room (and cost was the deciding factor for not putting it in until we wasted 2 weeks on the Yamaha and then cost stopped being a factor because we were losing business for the room)

Last edited by pentagon; 14th July 2019 at 08:34 AM.. Reason: better explanation
Old 14th July 2019
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
must be faulty then...

(i've been using multiple yamaha dme64n and 24n for many years in both installations and studios without any issues ever; i switched to lake processing though, still inside the dme64n and use euphonix and/or rme for conversion to analog)
Would be great to hear the details of your Yamaha setup. I’m looking at whether Pro Tools> DVS > Yamaha dme64n is a viable option for a 7.1 premixing setup with some flexibility to add more speakers later. The used prices are very cheap, even with the cost of a new Dante card for the Yamaha.

Rob Walker AMPS
Old 14th July 2019
  #52
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I finally went with the DADman MTRX rather than the MMP1.
It works very well with the eq SPQ card providing bass management and eq settings with the fold down and fold up menus and it is linked directly with the S3 and the Avid Dock. Plus having only one machine doing everything makes it easier.
Old 15th July 2019
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermisonic View Post
Would be great to hear the details of your Yamaha setup. I’m looking at whether Pro Tools> DVS > Yamaha dme64n is a viable option for a 7.1 premixing setup with some flexibility to add more speakers later. The used prices are very cheap, even with the cost of a new Dante card for the Yamaha.

Rob Walker AMPS
at 48khz, the dme64n is a 64i/o device which lets you freely assign function blocks, draw connection between them and i/o's so you can pretty much configure it the you like until you exhaust internal dsp (half the channel count and processing capacity at 96khz).

i could drive my 7.1.4 speaker setup (plus stereo nearfields plus mono broadband speaker) via dme but i much prefer the lake processing so i'm using my dme as a platform to run the lake cards and as a format converter: 14 inputs (7.1.4 + stereo) via madi and 22 outputs (i drive my mains 2-ways) via madi or aes (with an additional card).

to control the dme, i'm using the icp1 and assign a couple of functions such as mute to the buttons (so i don't have to run the pc with the dme designer).

feel free to pm me with more specific questions.

___


can't figure out why yamaha messed up the mmp-1 as the dme is a pretty well established series of processors and essentially does the same (plus some more regarding audio functions minus built-in speaker switcher) albeit looking less sleek...
Old 15th July 2019
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
at 48khz, the dme64n is a 64i/o device which lets you freely assign function blocks, draw connection between them and i/o's so you can pretty much configure it the you like until you exhaust internal dsp (half the channel count and processing capacity at 96khz).

i could drive my 7.1.4 speaker setup (plus stereo nearfields plus mono broadband speaker) via dme but i much prefer the lake processing so i'm using my dme as a platform to run the lake cards and as a format converter: 14 inputs (7.1.4 + stereo) via madi and 22 outputs (i drive my mains 2-ways) via madi or aes (with an additional card).

to control the dme, i'm using the icp1 and assign a couple of functions such as mute to the buttons (so i don't have to run the pc with the dme designer).

feel free to pm me with more specific questions.

___


can't figure out why yamaha messed up the mmp-1 as the dme is a pretty well established series of processors and esssentially does the same (plus some more regarding audio functions minus built-in speaker switcher) albeit looking less sleek...
Thanks! Will PM you

Rob
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