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Atmos for indie films in small mixing stage
Old 5th July 2017
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoorevich View Post
This is interesting. So it means that there should be a decent amount of top speakers to monitor Atmos correctly and reproducing the objects elements. So how many top speakers is a practical minimum?
I have been to 3 HT/TV Atmos stages (all were side-stages to larger facilities with theatrical Atmos stages.) Every single one used 4 overhead. I believe Dolby also pushes for a 4 speaker setup for the home (even with the bounce off the ceiling types where the rear surrounds and front speakers have the "bounce" speakers sitting on top.)

On theatrical stages, there have been as many overheads as side surrounds. If there were 6 side surrounds on the left wall, there would be 6 overhead-left, 6 overhead-right, and then back to 6 side surrounds on the right wall.
Old 5th July 2017
  #62
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Correct,

We only deal with ATMOS for Television.

Randall


Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoorevich View Post
You don't deal with the theatrical Atmos? Only the HT/TV
Old 7th July 2017
  #63
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
How many "Atmos Theaters" are there near you in your country?
So much this. I have been wanting to see a movie in dolby atmos for 2 years now. In that time, whenever a movie came out that I actually wanted to see, it wasn't available in Atmos, or if it was, i'd have to drive halfway across LA to see it, and only at hugely inconvenient times.

If it's clearly not a big deal for top-level blockbusters, then I think it's a bit silly to think indie directors and producers have the need for their film be mixed for atmos playback.

That said, the concept is cool as hell, I'd love to hear one some day. However we live in a world where I went to my friend's parent's house in Sherman Oaks where they have an atmos home theatre in their living room. And they have no blu-ray or DVD player rendering the system entirely useless. Everything they watch is in stereo. Good luck explaining that to people like them.

Also, every month I get a project with mono music or garbage MP3 music and I have to (as an exercise in futility) attempt to explain why this isn't good. They never care.
Old 7th July 2017
  #64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill___Bro View Post
they have no blu-ray or DVD player rendering the system entirely useless. Everything they watch is in stereo. Good luck explaining that to people like them.
Well, I think Dolby understands that.
Thats why they created a Atmos sound bar and called it a blown away bla-bla-bla thing.
Again when I was at their presentation and asked to compare their Atmos from-a-bar to a regular stereo, they gently tried to get me out of the room.
Because stereo sounded much-much better.
But this doesn't matter at all for the consumers. Dolby wants them to say: "I now have a true theatrical immersive sound in my home. The quality is not a function. What does matter is that Dolby wants the Atmos to be "a standard" everywhere. They don't own stereo or 5.1, but they do the Atmos.
Old 7th July 2017
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoorevich View Post
Well, I think Dolby understands that.
Thats why they created a Atmos sound bar and called it a blown away bla-bla-bla thing.
Again when I was at their presentation and asked to compare their Atmos from-a-bar to a regular stereo, they gently tried to get me out of the room.
Because stereo sounded much-much better.
But this doesn't matter at all for the consumers. Dolby wants them to say: "I now have a true theatrical immersive sound in my home. The quality is not a function. What does matter is that Dolby wants the Atmos to be "a standard" everywhere. They don't own stereo or 5.1, but they do the Atmos.
I have a relative who is well off enough that he always seems to have whatever hifi-for-TV scam is currently in fashion. I have no doubt that by now he has some sort of big Atmos sound bar deal, and like every system that has preceded it in his "great room" everything will be turned up to "11" (with the TV in "store display" mode). He won't really pay attention or have any clue about what is different or better than what he had before. Someone will have told him that this is the new boffo deal for watching sports etc, the dealer will send someone to install it, and he'll turn it on and watch it until the next innovation comes along. He'll never read a manual, run a diagnostic, take any measurements or make any adjustment to the system except to turn the volume up or off. He is an "apex consumer" in the eyes of the companies that make this gear and the networks that provide programming for it--pays full price when it first comes out, asks no questions and doesn't complain unless it is obviously broken. Sound bars are, face it, bull****. But they have high "Wife Acceptance Factor" for a TV speaker system.

Last edited by philper; 7th July 2017 at 09:37 PM..
Old 9th July 2017
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
I have the unique opportunity due to the fact I have all 4 Immersive Formats at "The Dub Stage" to listen to many huge Hollywood and World Tent Pole movies in the Immersive formats and I have to agree that many are nothing but a few objects in a 7.1 bed. On the other hand Mixes that have come from us at "TDS" have been very, very busy with the Immersive qualities and objects.
More and more Mixers are doing mixes with nearly everything as an object and it sounds quite impressive. The one thing one must realize is that a Home Theater object based mix will never sound as good as the Theatrical...never! The amount of objects that can be used at one time is limited due to the limitations of the medium in Blue Ray or Streaming. The pipeline is a compromise. That is not to say that Immersive mixes don't sound amazing when they arrive to the home, they are just different. Immersive Mixes need to compliment the story and also allow us mixers to be creative. When they both happen magical sonic stories can be told and appreciated. This is still early on as we Mixers learn to get the most sonically with the tools and the timeline that we are allotted to deliver content that can showcase what the medium can do.
What's the point of Atmos for home theatre when the majority are still listening in stereo and a few in 5.1 and installing ceiling speakers in one's living room
Old 9th July 2017
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vudoo View Post
What's the point of Atmos for home theatre when the majority are still listening in stereo and a few in 5.1 and installing ceiling speakers in one's living room
Old 9th July 2017
  #68
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There ARE a few people who will take this seriously and end up with a great home viewing experience. Unless they are millionaires it will be a pale imitation of a real Atmos system working in a good movie theatre at best.
Old 9th July 2017
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
There ARE a few people who will take this seriously and end up with a great home viewing experience. Unless they are millionaires it will be a pale imitation of a real Atmos system working in a good movie theatre at best.
I just listen to an Atmos mix of an Indy i worked on with the Dolby Soundbar home theatre system. It sounded NOTHING like the theatre version. I mean not even close. Sorry to differ DrSound's advice, but unless there's dramatic improvement, i don't ever see this format taking off for home theatre.

Philper, i do agree with you about a FEW people who do take the home experience seriously but we are talking about the extreme minority. Last month, we set up a small atmos for one of my client in his 3 door garage converted to a writing/mixing/projection room, QSC speakers/Q-sys Cores, Christie projector with integrated IMB/IMS...it sounded great but NOT cheap. Again let's not kid ourselves, your typical home dolby Atmos with sound bar technology will not get you anywhere near the theatre experience...not even close!

Last edited by vudoo; 9th July 2017 at 04:40 AM..
Old 9th July 2017
  #70
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But from the movie studios' point of view, isn't this the point? Dolby wants to license and sell as much as it can, and the home-jive-sound-bar market has got to be more lucrative for them than the feature film sector. But isn't part of the studios embrace of Atmos the knowledge that theatres will now have something that the majority of home-view consumers will never have (or not have soon anyhow)? Sort of the same reason why they invented wide-screen and surround sound in the back in the day? Real Atmos makes the movie theatre experience way different from even a really good home set up? I, for one, think this is great, especially if it helps keep movie theatres in business....
Old 10th July 2017
  #71
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This entire discussion is a bit like the one that went on when the Home Theater market transitioned to DVD and 5.1 Audio. People won't purchase ATMOS systems unless there is a bunch of content.

Outside of the 'chicken or egg' type argument, there are some legitimate reasons to mix in ATMOS, even if the majority of people are going to be listening in 5.1/7.1 environments.

1.) It 'somewhat' future proofs the title. It will be much easier to adapt a title to a new format (128 channel ATMOS2, VR, whatever get imagined) when parts of the audio are split well. Having a bunch of objects makes this easier.

2.) When objects are panned overheard in an ATMOS mix, and folded down into 7.1 or 5.1, there is still a perception of height to the audio. It is not as pronounced as if it were discreet, but it is there and isn't completely subtle.

Randall
Old 11th July 2017
  #72
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charles maynes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vudoo View Post
What's the point of Atmos for home theatre when the majority are still listening in stereo and a few in 5.1 and installing ceiling speakers in one's living room
mainly due to the availability of the sound bars.... which simplfy speaker configurations significantly....
Old 11th July 2017
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
This entire discussion is a bit like the one that went on when the Home Theater market transitioned to DVD and 5.1 Audio. People won't purchase ATMOS systems unless there is a bunch of content.

Outside of the 'chicken or egg' type argument, there are some legitimate reasons to mix in ATMOS, even if the majority of people are going to be listening in 5.1/7.1 environments.

1.) It 'somewhat' future proofs the title. It will be much easier to adapt a title to a new format (128 channel ATMOS2, VR, whatever get imagined) when parts of the audio are split well. Having a bunch of objects makes this easier.

2.) When objects are panned overheard in an ATMOS mix, and folded down into 7.1 or 5.1, there is still a perception of height to the audio. It is not as pronounced as if it were discreet, but it is there and isn't completely subtle.

Randall
That's funny, I used to say a 5.1 folded down to stereo sounds more separated than a stereo mix.
Old 11th July 2017
  #74
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Maybe "bars" will improve, by a lot. If they do maybe I'll be interested enough to invest in whatever the tool set is for Atmos by then, especially if they jail-break them out of ProTools.
Old 11th July 2017
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
Maybe "bars" will improve, by a lot. If they do maybe I'll be interested enough to invest in whatever the tool set is for Atmos by then, especially if they jail-break them out of ProTools.
I wouldn't hold my breath as Dolby invested a lot of money to get the Atmos toolset integrated into Pro Tools.
Since Pro Tools is the main DAW for Theatrical and TV Post Sound it might be a while.
Old 11th July 2017
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
I wouldn't hold my breath as Dolby invested a lot of money to get the Atmos toolset integrated into Pro Tools.
Since Pro Tools is the main DAW for Theatrical and TV Post Sound it might be a while.
I am holding my breath, because Dolby can make lots of money out in the wild world beyond PT! Especially if they want Atmos to become the linguas franca 5.1 or stereo are. They will want video editors to be able to use it, for instance...and game folks, and corpo folks, and web design folks etc etc.. In this regard Facebook is miles ahead of Dolby.
Old 11th July 2017
  #77
Absolutely don't want to start a DAW discussion in this thread, but Atmos panning, object control, and RMU communication was integrated in Nuendo 7 already. So the toolset does exist outside PT.
The missing link is the local renderer for the moment, but for theatrical mixes, nothing is really missing.
Old 11th July 2017
  #78
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Philper and Steven,
You are both correct. My mistake. I was just thinking of the poor implementation
of another DAW and another Immersive format.
My appoligies.
Old 11th July 2017
  #79
How come we shifted to consumer sound bar discussion?

Marti, I have another question for you if I can :-)
What would you prefer to get for your work taking in account you should deliver an Atmos mix: 5.1, 7.1 or 7.1.2 pre dubs?
Its interesting how you top guys are working. It should be essential for you to get all the elements from the sound designer in order to build objects and beds?
Sorry for sounding deletant, but I just wondering whether the Atmos mix require a different workflow approach rather than 5.1.
Old 12th July 2017
  #80
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Assuming that you don't have an Atmos speaker configuration then the best thing to deliver is 7.1 predubs. Everything needs to be virtual so for example I can have maximum flexibility on the stage. I have recently gotten pre dubs of a whole movie in Atmos local render and it worked very smooth going into my stage and being Finaled in Theatrical Dolby Atmos. The most important issue is communication.
Talk, try and proceed.
Talk about it in what one expects from each party.
Try a reel and see what works and what doesn't.
Proceed once everything looks and sounds right.

Hope this helps.
Old 13th July 2017
  #81
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoorevich View Post
Well, I think Dolby understands that.
Thats why they created a Atmos sound bar and called it a blown away bla-bla-bla thing.
Again when I was at their presentation and asked to compare their Atmos from-a-bar to a regular stereo, they gently tried to get me out of the room.
Because stereo sounded much-much better.
But this doesn't matter at all for the consumers. Dolby wants them to say: "I now have a true theatrical immersive sound in my home. The quality is not a function. What does matter is that Dolby wants the Atmos to be "a standard" everywhere. They don't own stereo or 5.1, but they do the Atmos.
That would have made sense, but they had 2 huge subs and gigantic speakers all over the huuuuuge room. Must have been at least 12 speakers.
Old 13th July 2017
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill___Bro View Post
That would have made sense, but they had 2 huge subs and gigantic speakers all over the huuuuuge room. Must have been at least 12 speakers.
Only 12 speakers and 2 subs?
Old 16th March 2018
  #83
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time for a thread resurrection.
I just test-drove the new 7.1.4 Atmos4HT setup in one of our rooms.
In order to get this off the ground I took the easiest route and for the time being went with a Local Renderer workflow. Since this room already had a 7.1 system and a Trinnov D-mon12 the additional invest was only 4 speakers. We already had an Atmos Production Suite license from a VR workstation.

So the entrance barrier for a basic Atmos for Home mixing setup is not really big if you already have a surround setup. You can upgrade to the HT RMU any time.
Just did a 15min test scene with some jungle BGs as 7.1 bed, rain from the top and some insects as objects flying around the room.
Never had so much fun in front of PT for quite a while!
Old 19th March 2018
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
Are the Atmos tools totally ProTools centric, or are there other paths available? The Dolby sites I found seemed more targeted at consumers (ie moviegoers) than mixers etc..
Fairlight 3DAW Dolby Atmos Demo. This is the ATMOS demo that comes as a free download on the XBOX ONE X and I played it in my 9.3.4 ATMOS theater and it was mind blowing. It puts Surround to shame, like surround puts stereo to shame, like stereo puts mono to shame.

Fortunately there's a ton of Blu Ray discs that have ATMOS along with 4K. I am hoping more and more films use this format. Fortunately most high end receivers that are ATMOS enabled also have an ATMOS UPMIX feature.

Fairlight 3DAW Dolby Atmos Demo - YouTube
Old 21st March 2018
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosmokrator View Post
time for a thread resurrection.
I just test-drove the new 7.1.4 Atmos4HT setup in one of our rooms.
In order to get this off the ground I took the easiest route and for the time being went with a Local Renderer workflow. Since this room already had a 7.1 system and a Trinnov D-mon12 the additional invest was only 4 speakers. We already had an Atmos Production Suite license from a VR workstation.

So the entrance barrier for a basic Atmos for Home mixing setup is not really big if you already have a surround setup. You can upgrade to the HT RMU any time.
Just did a 15min test scene with some jungle BGs as 7.1 bed, rain from the top and some insects as objects flying around the room.
Never had so much fun in front of PT for quite a while!
What's the difference between using the Local Rendered Workflow vs HT RMU ?
Old 21st March 2018
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vudoo View Post
What's the difference between using the Local Rendered Workflow vs HT RMU ?
Well besides the obvious one that for a RMU you need two additional MADI interfaces there's 4 differences that I'm aware of, and in fact I also asked Dolby the same question:

- With an RMU, you free the DAW CPU from the computational overhead of the Local Renderer
- You don't have to create aux tracks for each bed and each object and returns for all speakers in PT (which you have to do to get the signal to and from the Local Renderer via the send/return AAX plugins)
- Due to the routing via insert send plugins to the Local Renderer the delay compensation doesn't work
- And finally an advantage of the Local Renderer, the RMU doesn't provide binaural rendering nor the complete VR workflow.
Old 21st March 2018
  #87
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So while we're on the topic of differences, what are the difference in what final deliverables one can achieve? Is it correct that for anything cinema one needs the RMU in a certified room etc, and with "local" we can go to BluRay, VR and streaming?
Old 22nd March 2018
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
So while we're on the topic of differences, what are the difference in what final deliverables one can achieve? Is it correct that for anything cinema one needs the RMU in a certified room etc, and with "local" we can go to BluRay, VR and streaming?
The info i got from Dolby, you need the ''cinema'' RMU to create deliverables for cinema.

''local'' or ''Home Theater'' RMU are strictly for BluRay, VR and Streaming.

Last edited by vudoo; 22nd March 2018 at 03:33 AM..
Old 22nd March 2018
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosmokrator View Post
Well besides the obvious one that for a RMU you need two additional MADI interfaces there's 4 differences that I'm aware of, and in fact I also asked Dolby the same question:

- With an RMU, you free the DAW CPU from the computational overhead of the Local Renderer
- You don't have to create aux tracks for each bed and each object and returns for all speakers in PT (which you have to do to get the signal to and from the Local Renderer via the send/return AAX plugins)
- Due to the routing via insert send plugins to the Local Renderer the delay compensation doesn't work
- And finally an advantage of the Local Renderer, the RMU doesn't provide binaural rendering nor the complete VR workflow.
Does ''local'' eat that much resources ? I'm using an HD native on a 12 cores nMP and on big surround mixes with lots of plug-ins, i barely ever hit 50% on my CPU.

From your list, my only main concern is delay compensation, other than than i don't see any valid reason to dish out an extra $10K for a HT (home Theater) RMU.
Old 22nd March 2018
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vudoo View Post
Does ''local'' eat that much resources ? I'm using an HD native on a 12 cores nMP and on big surround mixes with lots of plug-ins, i barely ever hit 50% on my CPU.

From your list, my only main concern is delay compensation, other than than i don't see any valid reason to dish out an extra $10K for a HT (home Theater) RMU.
It can eat quite a bit of CPU resources, depending on if you use binaural rendering, what amount of re-render engines etc.

And yes, I came to the same conclusion, therefore I also went with the Local Renderer for now.
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