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Pro Tools 12.6 Clip Effects
Old 11th September 2016
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Pro Tools 12.6 Clip Effects

Hi All,

Just heard saw the announcement about Pro Tools 12.6 and especially the Clip Effects feature. Headed here straight away to see how people think it might affect your workflow (if at all)?

IBC 2016: A Gigantic Leap in Sound and Speed With Pro Tools


What do you think?
Old 11th September 2016
  #2
Gear Addict
 
Leverson's Avatar
As of right now Clip Effects are only limited to one default EQ and one default Compressor, so I don't see it having an immediate use or change to my workflow. I already basically work this way with using plugin automation. Especially for EQ and compression, I never render those, its always automatable and with 'automation follows edit' switched on so it moves with the clips, so I don't see any new major benefit at the moment.

However, I'm hoping this is just the first step and that eventually every AAX plugin will be able to have this feature and can be used as a Clip Effect, now THAT would be something I'd find interesting and highly useful.

As for the rest of 12.6, I'm very excited for their new editing enhancements and playlist enhancements and re-recording workflow enhancements. There seems to be some really smart timesavers designed there. Even simple things like the outline of a track changing color if it overlaps with something further down the timeline off screen is small but really helpful and useful. Overall I think it looks like a great update, but Clip Effects are limited at the moment and not quite there yet as a feature. Baby steps.

Edit: I also wanted to give a shout-out to the new task manager icon and the shortcut icon to the relink missing files window. Simple, useful, well thought out things that make workflow easier and smoother. These are the kinds of enhancements I like seeing.

Last edited by Leverson; 11th September 2016 at 04:43 PM..
Old 11th September 2016
  #3
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Oliver.Lucas's Avatar
It's a good first step. But especially with EQ you would want a sonogram and the ability to copy the sonic characteristics of one clip to another clip. Also it would be nice to be able to pick a favorite plugin rather than having to use the included one. Still, it's a very desirable feature.
Old 11th September 2016
  #4
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iluvcapra's Avatar
This will probably be my go-to for most of my FX and foley tracks.

It might be appropriate for some dialogue pre-filtering and notching, though the Avid Channel Strip doesn't really give you enough notches in those instances you really need it (in the video it appears to only have two). A thornier question particularly when it comes to clip dynamics is where clip processing sits in the processing chain. I assume it happens prior to any DSP effects so for dialogue, where you're liable to have a de-noiser in the chain, these kinds of clip effects will have very limited utility for me, I usually want to have my beauty EQ and dynamics after my de-noising.

Also not clear: if this works at all like Nuendo or Reaper's clip effects features, what it'll lack is automation envelopes, you can set the EQ for a clip but you won't be able to vary the parameters over the duration of the clip.

Edit- On the plus side I bet clip processing will export into clip groups along with the gain, which is handy. How it's implemented in fades and at boundaries will be something to look out for. Also will clip processing settings be able to be merged or written to channel strip plugin automation or vice-versus, as is possible with volume automation and clip gain? Video's also a little cagey about multichannel clip processing.

I hope the playlist features are well implemented. I worked on a project earlier this year where we used alternate playlists of the dialogue tracks for M&E flop, and we discovered a lot of screen drawing bugs relating to showing playlists in the edit window.

Last edited by iluvcapra; 11th September 2016 at 07:43 PM..
Old 11th September 2016
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver.Lucas View Post
It's a good first step. But especially with EQ you would want a sonogram and the ability to copy the sonic characteristics of one clip to another clip. Also it would be nice to be able to pick a favorite plugin rather than having to use the included one. Still, it's a very desirable feature.
copy/paste and applying EQ presets to multiple clips is possible (see AVID demo video).

Sonogram? Which AAX EQ do you have in mind that has that?

BTW: The channel strip has 4 notches and 2 filters that can also be notches/band-passes. So 6 notches total if you need them. Try it. It's a great EQ / Compressor.

Clip-EQ etc. is obviously not for mixing. It's to do clip-based general matching (ADR comes to mind) or a quick Futz-EQ etc. and then put your "beauty EQ" on top of that which obviously needs to be time-based to picture. If 200 ADR clips have a 30Hz rumble on them I don't want to dial that out every time I drag an Alt-Take from the bin to the time line. And I also don't have to extend automation setting every time I wind out the head and tail of the clip when the session is conformed to a new cut. This is a huge time-saver for B/G tracklays.

Reminds me a bit of the duscussions when clip-gain was introduced. Many people (incl. Mixers) said "don't need it, pointless feature" now they can't live without it anymore ;-)

Last edited by apple-q; 11th September 2016 at 10:53 PM..
Old 11th September 2016
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post

Also not clear: if this works at all like Nuendo or Reaper's clip effects features, what it'll lack is automation envelopes, you can set the EQ for a clip but you won't be able to vary the parameters over the duration of the clip.
It's pretty clear from the demo video. These are static EQ and dynamics settings on a per-clip-basis.

If you want them to be time-based you have that already now with the "conventional" time based automation.

The main and very important difference is that the new clip-based settings stick to the clip even when you drag them from the clip-list just like clip-gain. They are not time-based, they are object-based. Extremely helpful when tracklaying.
Old 11th September 2016
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Reminds me a bit of the duscussions when clip-gain was introduced. Many people (incl. Mixers) said "don't need it, pointless feature" now they can't live without it anymore ;-)
Exactly.
Old 11th September 2016
  #8
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iluvcapra's Avatar
How do you get 6 notches out of channel strip?
Old 11th September 2016
  #9
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jwh1192's Avatar
i assume you all know this is HD Only .. just wanted to make sure ...
Old 11th September 2016
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
How do you get 6 notches out of channel strip?
4 parametric bands and 2 filters that can be switched between high/low cut, band-pass and notch.

Unless my memory is blurry.
Old 11th September 2016
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
i assume you all know this is HD Only .. just wanted to make sure ...
Yes but they will play back on vanilla and can also be removed. Just not created or tweaked.
At least they say that in the video.
But then: No idea who works on non-HD as a pro in post...won't get you too far, really.
Old 11th September 2016
  #12
Gear Guru
 
jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Yes but they will play back on vanilla and can also be removed. Just not created or tweaked.
At least they say that in the video.
have not seen the video yet .. that will help with transferring sessions between HD and non-HD systems .. thx for posting !!! cheers john

and as you say stereo only .. until avid opens surround to non-HD .. hoping one day ..
Old 12th September 2016
  #13
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iluvcapra's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
4 parametric bands and 2 filters that can be switched between high/low cut, band-pass and notch.

Unless my memory is blurry.
There's two filters, which can be either highpass, lowpass, bandpass or notch. There are four other parametric EQs, two of these are exclusively "bell" and two others can be switched between bell and shelving.

You can use the bells for notching but they ring like crazy, they're not designed for it.
Old 12th September 2016
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
There's two filters, which can be either highpass, lowpass, bandpass or notch. There are four other parametric EQs, two of these are exclusively "bell" and two others can be switched between bell and shelving.

You can use the bells for notching but they ring like crazy, they're not designed for it.
The bells ring like crazy when used as notches? They ring when you boost stuff but not when you use them as notches.
Old 12th September 2016
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Reminds me a bit of the duscussions when clip-gain was introduced. Many people (incl. Mixers) said "don't need it, pointless feature" now they can't live without it anymore ;-)
Exactly. Clip gain, clip EQ, layers, and translucent waveforms are all features I love about Fairlight. Nice to see Avid picking up useful ideas.

Aside from mixing, this will be a boon during editing. You can shape BG's while laying them in without rendering anything, maybe remove hum from dialog lines, a lot of uses. I'm sure music guys will be scratching their heads like when clip gain was introduced but for post this is great.
Old 12th September 2016
  #16
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iluvcapra's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
The bells ring like crazy when used as notches? They ring when you boost stuff but not when you use them as notches.
Without getting too much into the weeds, boosting and cutting are mathematically congruent in an LTI equalizer with an order greater than 2, it's just a question of wether the filter's resonance is in-phase with the input or 180° out-of-phase. If the EQ is ringing, boosting a frequency rings in phase with the input signal and cutting rings out-of-phase (and least this what I hear when I use it).

Edit: Better explanation=

So in a biquad (just as an example, it's quite possible Avid's ChannelStrip EQs are biquads) your feedforward gain coefficients move further away from unity in as your gain goes up and your Q goes down, but your feedback gain coefficients get closer to unity by the same proportion. If these are the coefficients:

Code:
w0 = 2*pi*f0/Fs
alpha = sin(w0)/(2*Q) 
A     = 10^(dBgain/40)

Feedforward gains:
b0 =   1 + alpha*A
b1 =  -2*cos(w0)
b2 =   1 - alpha*A

Feedback gains:
a0 =   1 + alpha/A
a1 =  -2*cos(w0)
a2 =   1 - alpha/A
The feedforward and feedback gains are unity, plus or minus either the product or ratio of alpha and A. A never goes below zero, it's bounded at 0 and is at 1 when dbGain is zero. As gain increases above zero the feedforward coefficients get further away from unity exponentially, while the feedback coefficients get closer to unity. And as gain drops below zero the coefficients move in opposite directions but by the same magnitude. As the gain's sign changes, either the feedforward or feedback network gets further or close from unity, the actual values are the same, they just switch position on the graph.

Last edited by iluvcapra; 12th September 2016 at 02:27 AM..
Old 12th September 2016
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
Oliver.Lucas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Sonogram? Which AAX EQ do you have in mind that has that?
MAutoDynamicEq | MeldaProduction
Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Reminds me a bit of the duscussions when clip-gain was introduced. Many people (incl. Mixers) said "don't need it, pointless feature" now they can't live without it anymore ;-)
Yep. Exactly. I remember that from Nuendo 1 or Fairlight MFX almost 2 decades ago
Old 12th September 2016
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
Without getting too much into the weeds, boosting and cutting are mathematically congruent in an LTI equalizer with an order greater than 2, it's just a question of wether the filter's resonance is in-phase with the input or 180° out-of-phase. If the EQ is ringing, boosting a frequency rings in phase with the input signal and cutting rings out-of-phase (and least this what I hear when I use it).

Edit: Better explanation=

So in a biquad (just as an example, it's quite possible Avid's ChannelStrip EQs are biquads) your feedforward gain coefficients move further away from unity in as your gain goes up and your Q goes down, but your feedback gain coefficients get closer to unity by the same proportion. If these are the coefficients:

Code:
w0 = 2*pi*f0/Fs
alpha = sin(w0)/(2*Q) 
A     = 10^(dBgain/40)

Feedforward gains:
b0 =   1 + alpha*A
b1 =  -2*cos(w0)
b2 =   1 - alpha*A

Feedback gains:
a0 =   1 + alpha/A
a1 =  -2*cos(w0)
a2 =   1 - alpha/A
The feedforward and feedback gains are unity, plus or minus either the product or ratio of alpha and A. A never goes below zero, it's bounded at 0 and is at 1 when dbGain is zero. As gain increases above zero the feedforward coefficients get further away from unity exponentially, while the feedback coefficients get closer to unity. And as gain drops below zero the coefficients move in opposite directions but by the same magnitude. As the gain's sign changes, either the feedforward or feedback network gets further or close from unity, the actual values are the same, they just switch position on the graph.
Although I don't know much about this mathematics, I can confirm that Channel Strip sharp (Q=60-70 or more) bell EQ produces ringing even when cutting. As iluvcapra said, it is inaudible most of the time, but could be heard on sharp transients or clips' tails, if you're paying attention.
So, yes, you can get only 2 notches out of Channel Strip. Most of EQ plugins ring when such a steep curve is used for cutting.
Old 12th September 2016
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Branko View Post
Although I don't know much about this mathematics, I can confirm that Channel Strip sharp (Q=60-70 or more) bell EQ produces ringing even when cutting. As iluvcapra said, it is inaudible most of the time, but could be heard on sharp transients or clips' tails, if you're paying attention.
So, yes, you can get only 2 notches out of Channel Strip. Most of EQ plugins ring when such a steep curve is used for cutting.
I guess I just never came across a sound that caused ringing with the CS then. Will keep an eye on it. But I rarely use that kind of hard core notching live. I normally do it offline in RX. Maybe that's why I've never come across it.

I remember from the EQ3 1-Band that a track would suddenly go into clipping when you put a low-cut on it. Didn't have to be a steep one.
Old 12th September 2016
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver.Lucas View Post
Right, but that's a very specialized EQ (and currently the only one that has a sonogram display, AFAIK). Not really an every-day work-horse. At least not for me. Way to cluttered and quirky interface.
From what you said it sounded like an EQ with sonogram is some completely essential must-have to be able to EQ something at all.
Old 12th September 2016
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
Oliver.Lucas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Right, but that's a very specialized EQ (and currently the only one that has a sonogram display, AFAIK). Not really an every-day work-horse. At least not for me. Way to cluttered and quirky interface.
From what you said it sounded like an EQ with sonogram is some completely essential must-have to be able to EQ something at all.
Well, for me it is. I admit it looks intimidating at first sight but once you get used to the GUI you do not want to go back to any other EQ. It's an outstanding piece of gear.
Old 12th September 2016
  #22
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iluvcapra's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Right, but that's a very specialized EQ (and currently the only one that has a sonogram display, AFAIK). Not really an every-day work-horse. At least not for me. Way to cluttered and quirky interface.
From what you said it sounded like an EQ with sonogram is some completely essential must-have to be able to EQ something at all.
Equilibrium has a sonogram too, and many of them have FFTs. I also have MAutoDynamicEQ but I've never used the sonogram on it, I should look at it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Branko View Post
Although I don't know much about this mathematics, I can confirm that Channel Strip sharp (Q=60-70 or more) bell EQ produces ringing even when cutting. As iluvcapra said, it is inaudible most of the time, but could be heard on sharp transients or clips' tails, if you're paying attention.
So, yes, you can get only 2 notches out of Channel Strip. Most of EQ plugins ring when such a steep curve is used for cutting.
I also get a weird chirp or THUMP when a low-cut is automated to enable either in an audio file or even just at the beginning of it, I think there may be something overzealously slow about how it interpolates automation. It's a totally useable plugin and it should be preferred just by dint of it being installed everywhere but it's not without its issues, it's engineered for low latency and computational efficiency.
Old 12th September 2016
  #23
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iluvcapra's Avatar
Did anybody see a date for this to come out?
Old 13th September 2016
  #24
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lemix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
Did anybody see a date for this to come out?
possibly a day after your subscription expires..
Sorry..a tad of Avid sarcasm.

>>To the posts above; yes I do agree that Mautodynamic EQ is a bit funky looking and gets convoluted at first , I do like what it does a lot
Actually I feel the same way about DMG stuff, but also great .
I do use both.

Anyone knows what will 12.6 vanilla get as a new feature ?
Old 13th September 2016
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemix View Post

Anyone knows what will 12.6 vanilla get as a new feature ?
Overlapping regions and playlist enhancements.
Old 13th September 2016
  #26
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Yes but they will play back on vanilla and can also be removed. Just not created or tweaked.
At least they say that in the video.
But then: No idea who works on non-HD as a pro in post...won't get you too far, really.
I've never needed surround for dialog editing or recording.
Old 13th September 2016
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
I've never needed surround for dialog editing or recording.
Never need to conform mix stems or a mix session when a picture cut has changed during the mix?
Old 16th September 2016
  #28
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Leverson's Avatar
I've been thinking more about this over this week, and in my original post I was thinking purely about dialogue work. In hindsight, I can see having clip based EQ and dynamics being quite useful for sound FX work.

I'm still looking forward to the day when *all* AAX plugs are included though, not just the stock EQ and compressor.
Old 17th September 2016
  #29
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iluvcapra's Avatar
This seems to answer most of my questions...
Old 17th September 2016
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
This seems to answer most of my questions...
It's a good article, although the poster shouldn't be disappointed about lack of support for higher multichannel formats.
9.1 bussing and an advanced panner (the Dolby Atmos one or very similar) are on the way they told me at IBC.
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