The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Which DAW for post ???
Old 31st January 2007
  #31
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPl View Post
Yes, on the side of creativity, this is where it really counts, right?
If I understand you, I would say yes- learn whatever tool that is required for the work, then try to creatively solve the problems that a project presents-


Peter Gabriel had an interesting notion about the technical and creative side of thought and the brain- He labeled them X and Y thinking- the thing he seemed to feel strongly about is that once you are in the "creative" thought mode- the technical side should be shut out as much as possible, because allowing your mind to think in that opposite manner was going to lessen your creativity. The same was true when analytical thought was required- he said it was important to try to minimize the "creative" thought process when dealing with tech issues- I would think because he considered the the speediest resolution to always be best, so you could return to the issues which required creative thought.

Obviously there are many things which require both modes of thinking, but to allow such focus can sometimes be very useful.

Brian Eno always had wonderful thoughts on issues such as these as well...


charles maynes
Old 31st January 2007
  #32
Lives for gear
 
minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Brian Eno always had wonderful thoughts on issues such as these as well...
as well as some nice 3 x 5 cards...with oblique strategies.....
Old 31st January 2007
  #33
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 

I consult Oblique Strategies nearly as much as the tea and coffee pot...

they are truly a gift from on high...

charles maynes
Old 31st January 2007
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by modistylee View Post
Alright looks like I started a fire, though I should have expected it. First of all, I never claimed to be a pure post-production engineer. Actually, my main interest in relation to post is sound design, so a musicians (creative) mentality does fly. Yes I have and do work in professional post-production (video and audio) and I never claimed to have a studio in LA or even want to live in that smog ridden city. Yes I have used Protools HD and I've worked in a professional Mastering Studio. Yes I have 2 degrees from Berklee College of Music. Yes I've used and spliced 2" tape. I respect all of your opinions and your professional backgrouds, but I don't need a reality check. Its 2007, not 1994. Computers are ridiculously fast and the market is flooded with professional audio apps, A-D/D-A converters and plugins that are stable and capable of performing in a post situation. I know I can't change the industry, but there is also no reason to be so narrow minded. If Pro-tools is the best solution for your workflow then by all means use it, but nothing progressive can come out of a marriage to one platform, and actually, I'd rather talk about my instrument design in MAX-MSP or Reaktor at a job interview then assure them that I have my pt key commands memorized from my 2 week certification class.
Wow...that was incredibly insightful. I'd also like to add that it never gets old watching newbies scramble to retract a boisterous rant upon realizing that they are ranting to exactly the kind of guys that may be able to assist them in their career down the road.

There is nothing 'narrow minded' about recommending a platform that is a proven workhorse in the post production industry. What's narrow minded is attacking people who are taking their time to offer recommendations based on professional experience.
Old 31st January 2007
  #35
Georgia, check out this link if you haven't seen it, the bottom two guys, Steve Tushar and John Ross are using Nuendo on large budget films. John.

http://euphonix.com/video/system_5-m...iles/index.htm
Old 31st January 2007
  #36
Gear Maniac
 
smsjr's Avatar
 

I have spent time on the Nuendo-post.com forum and those guys have been very helpful. Word of caution. Steve seems to be a little anti-Pro Tools. He often refers to it as Slow Tools. But they seem like cool people and I bet would be more than happy to help out.

Steve
Old 31st January 2007
  #37
Lives for gear
 
minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by smsjr View Post
Word of caution. Steve seems to be a little anti-Pro Tools.
DO YA THINK???

he also thinks that those PT people are lazy, stupid, and are like sheep. would love to have him come to the studio to see if he'd characterize me as lazy and stupid.

clearly, he doesn't have a clue. plenty of brilliant people use PT. some even hate it, but work with it. some love it. some smart people use Pyramix, or Fairlight, or Nuendo.

ultimately, it is a posture of protection for his choice.

but, yes, leaving the PT issue aside, if you are interested in Nuendo specific post, it might be a place to hang. pretty quiet over there.
Old 31st January 2007
  #38
Gear Maniac
 
smsjr's Avatar
 

Tom, I can't say I've ever met him personally. I would think perhaps some of his rants about Pro Tools are just letting off some steam from maybe some bad experiences with it. But having said that, if he were to classify all Pro Tools users as lazy and stupid, that would seems strange to me. I think he's worked with some very competent Pro Tools users.

Anyway, if we ever meet in person some day, you'll see that I'm about as easy to get along with as they come, so I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. That's why you'll never see me get into any heated debates on the forums. So, the only experience I can pull from in regards to Steve was that he gave me some advice when I first got Nuendo.

To me, DAW wars are just as silly as the Mac vs PC wars. Anyone who uses any of this stuff on a daily basis knows what works for them and what doesn't. For those who are jumping into the game and don't have any experience with the various options, if you do the homework, try stuff out, and look to those who have used the gear in question, everything else will fall in place.

Georgia, I think you will find there are some things about Nuendo that are really great, maybe even improvements over PT, and then other areas where they just haven't got it right yet. Other areas are just different way of doing things. But it's certainly capable of doing features, especially when coupled with some great hardware. I think it allows a lot more flexibility to people with project studios who may be frustrated with PT LE limitations. You will find that you get a lot more horsepower from Nuendo when compared to LE. Track count, plugin count, and the ability to do surround. Comparing it to Pro Tools HD is a bit more fair of a comparison. That's where you would have to weigh whether one is better than the other. I would encourage you to spend some time with it, see how it feels within your workflow. But only do that if you've got some downtime, which I'm sure is what you would do anyway.

Steve
Old 31st January 2007
  #39
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by smsjr View Post
To me, DAW wars are just as silly as the Mac vs PC wars. Anyone who uses any of this stuff on a daily basis knows what works for them and what doesn't. For those who are jumping into the game and don't have any experience with the various options, if you do the homework, try stuff out, and look to those who have used the gear in question, everything else will fall in place.
Steve

Steve-

I do not mean to highjack your discourse, but it needs to be said that if people want to enter a new field- In this case Audio Post, they should first off try to figure out how THEY can fit into OUR world. For people to come in with different methodologies is not a problem per-se, but when they think that their way of doing things is better than the accepted standards- THAT is where trouble starts- If they set the world on fire with their work, they are then allowed to make trouble...i.e. Walter Murch and Final Cut Pro.

I know some of the details as to why John Ross is a Non ProTools guy- it involves business issues, not platform performance issues-

As well, Steinberg is not setup to do on-call support for the big facilities- Digi finally got that happening- so that is a big reasons dub-stages are now on ProTools.

Also- the Digi model of a very specific spec for track count and performance is something that bigger places like- the idea of a native platform may be attractive to an end user, but for an engineering dept. they want to have reliable non-tweaker hardware that is available at a moments notice. I think this one reason the PC platform has not had much impact in the post community with ProTools.

This is not to claim Pt is better than something else, just that it has become the Ford F250 of workstations- They are everywhere, and they continue to work.

charles maynes
Old 31st January 2007
  #40
Lives for gear
 
Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Steve-

I do not mean to highjack your discourse, but it needs to be said that if people want to enter a new field- In this case Audio Post, they should first off try to figure out how THEY can fit into OUR world. For people to come in with different methodologies is not a problem per-se, but when they think that their way of doing things is better than the accepted standards- THAT is where trouble starts- If they set the world on fire with their work, they are then allowed to make trouble...i.e. Walter Murch and Final Cut Pro.

I know some of the details as to why John Ross is a Non ProTools guy- it involves business issues, not platform performance issues-

As well, Steinberg is not setup to do on-call support for the big facilities- Digi finally got that happening- so that is a big reasons dub-stages are now on ProTools.

Also- the Digi model of a very specific spec for track count and performance is something that bigger places like- the idea of a native platform may be attractive to an end user, but for an engineering dept. they want to have reliable non-tweaker hardware that is available at a moments notice. I think this one reason the PC platform has not had much impact in the post community with ProTools.

This is not to claim Pt is better than something else, just that it has become the Ford F250 of workstations- They are everywhere, and they continue to work.

charles maynes
Well said.
Old 31st January 2007
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
I know some of the details as to why John Ross is a Non ProTools guy- it involves business issues, not platform performance issues-
A somewhat glassy situation.... ahem
Old 31st January 2007
  #42
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfrigo View Post
A somewhat glassy situation.... ahem
Jay-

We seem to have the same information....



charles maynes
Old 31st January 2007
  #43
Lives for gear
 
taturana's Avatar
most of the stuff i do for movies and tv is done and finished here on sonar 6, some stuff (when i need dolby approval or such) is sent to a special dubbing stage equipped with PT HD3, but only at the very final stage.... most of the work is still done here on sonar...
Old 31st January 2007
  #44
Gear Maniac
 
Stizz's Avatar
We used WaveFrame for many years, but switched to Pro Tools HD about a year and a half ago - the best part of using PT is that so many other houses use it, which makes it easy to send sessions back and forth. I do miss the ADR functions of the WaveFrame, but we seem to manage with PT.
Old 31st January 2007
  #45
Lives for gear
 
minister's Avatar
i think that whatever works for someone in their situation is great! if your environment supports your choice of DAW, then you have made a good choice.

Pyramix i have heard good things about. but i wonder about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by crna59 View Post
I've been using a PT HD/Accel4 system for a couple of years now for Post... I'm having to do workarounds in my PT system that interrupt the flow. I used my Pyramix system the last couple of times for Post projects and I feel I got them done in 3/4ths time. Pyramix is an amazing product that everyone should check out.

Regards,
Bruce
can you please be specific about the work arounds? PT is FAR from perfect. i just want to know what Pyramix does more easily.

thanks.
Old 31st January 2007
  #46
Gear Maniac
 
smsjr's Avatar
 

Charles, I think we are in agreement. Pro Tools is clearly the leader and used by many high end facilitites and users, including where I work. The only place I would disagree is that if someone has found a different way to work, i.e. a different workstation or a new console, etc. and it's paying their bills, then that system is right for them. Like I said, I don't know Steve Tusher personally, but he seems to be doing okay, and I can't hold it against him that he uses Nuendo. Maybe a little more kindness towards the Pro Tools users would aleviate some of the bad vibes that might have been generated.

As for people coming into the business, I agree with you that it's important to learn the tools that are being used by the masses, especially if you want to work at one of those facilities. My approach has always been learn as much as I can, because somewhere down the line, I'll need it. I was brought up on Avid, now I use Avid and Final Cut Pro. Like the DAWs, the video editing systems have their pros and cons and you use the one that gets the job done most efficiently.

We are living in pretty amazing times when it comes to technology. So many tools, for relatively low costs when compared to say twenty years ago. It's a beautiful thing. And so many people have paved the way for us.

Steve
Old 31st January 2007
  #47
Lives for gear
 
soundboy's Avatar
I believe that, though John Ross does endorse Nuendo and Euphonix, he has a couple of Protools rigs hooked up to his System 5. I started on the Waveframe for editorial in '94 or '95, cut FX and Foley for a feature in PT in '97, and vowed I would never use PT "amature" platform again. I now edit and Mix on an HD3 rig. Never say never. And if I thought clients would start asking me, "You do work in...(your system here)" I would scrap the PT rig and get the next tool. When I built my studio, I thought about Nuendo, and realized that I would always have to 'explain' my system to potential clients. I also thought about a HUI as a control surface. Even though all the functionality I need is there, it looks like a toy mixing console. So I got a Procontrol. Sometimes its not just what the tool does... Now for sombody like Walter Murch, or Charles M. or Marti H., they could probably show up to the party with a Moviola and you would be happy to have them on board. I guess this is the long way round of saying, it's whats between the ears that counts, and what your selling. Get the tool that does the job. You have a skill to sell. Does that tool help sell that product, or hinder the sale?
Old 1st February 2007
  #48
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
Pyramix i have heard good things about. but i wonder about this:

can you please be specific about the work arounds? PT is FAR from perfect. i just want to know what Pyramix does more easily.

thanks.
It had mostly to do with video import/export of different file formats. I agree now that 7.3 is better in the implementation... still not the best. I was using a Mojo to go back and forth between the AVID and PT workstations. Seems Pyramix covers ALL the formats, not just MXF and QT without having to go through a proprietary device.

Regards,
Bruce
Old 1st February 2007
  #49
Lives for gear
 
minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by crna59 View Post
It had mostly to do with video import/export of different file formats. I agree now that 7.3 is better in the implementation... still not the best. I was using a Mojo to go back and forth between the AVID and PT workstations. Seems Pyramix covers ALL the formats, not just MXF and QT without having to go through a proprietary device.

Regards,
Bruce
ah, i see. i am not a fan of the Mojo (and i think it is a crime what they did to AVXL users!). in 7.2, they improved the situation. but i never liked the strain on the CPU... that is why i use VVTR.

anything else besides video? i mean, once you have your video system set, it is not a big deal. i used to do the IgniterLT with mjpega 320x240 for years in PT 4, then 5 and then some in 6. then a FUSE-X... i would just tell the video editors what i needed and i got it. or, i would trans-code it in QT Pro.
Old 1st February 2007
  #50
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
ah, i see. i am not a fan of the Mojo (and i think it is a crime what they did to AVXL users!). in 7.2, they improved the situation. but i never liked the strain on the CPU... that is why i use VVTR.
Yeah... this was actually a biggie for me. I can even import/export FCP XML and Sonic Solution files.. on a PC!! You don't have to go through Translator for AAF/OMF files.
You can burn time code with out the external sync box too. Pyramix also INCLUDES machine control for ext. decks.
I'm sure there are a slew of things that I'm forgetting. I really like my PT system, IF everything is in the correct format.

Regards,
Bruce
Old 1st February 2007
  #51
Gear Maniac
 
smsjr's Avatar
 

For what it's worth, the V10 is solid. Unfortunately, it's PC only and quite pricey. But I have to say, it makes life very easy when importing tracks from various Avid workstations. Still waiting for HD support.

I remember getting one of the first AVoptions back in the day, and once it was fully integrated and the bugs worked out, it usually worked as advertised.

Steve
Old 1st February 2007
  #52
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by smsjr View Post
I don't know Steve Tusher personally, but he seems to be doing okay, and I can't hold it against him that he uses Nuendo. Maybe a little more kindness towards the Pro Tools users would aleviate some of the bad vibes that might have been generated.

Steve

Steve Tusher tends to work with Ron Eng, who tends to work with John Ross-
They are all into Nuendo, which is cool and groovey, but they are sort of out on their own...

I think the main issue is to able to work with whatever the guy hiring you wants you to- If it is those guys, well I guess you better be up on Nuendo, If it is with the thousand other guys in LA and NY and SF, well that is going to be ProTools.

For the films I have done, well they have all been ProTools- long ago Waveframes were sort of popular at Sony, Paramount and Soundelux and Fairlights were popular at Todd/AO and Warner Brothers, but those days are no more- Every major studio is doing PT, so I guess that means if you do those shows- you do them on ProTools.

Now this doesn't mean you cant use other stuff when you are doing design and all- (I still love to use my 22 year old DX7IID for weird stuff, and I did use it for stuff on my current project). But it gets presented to the stage in ProTools.

As a slight deviation for the thread- I should say that all the tricky plugins and automation you might do in order to make a scene "pop" are best printed to new audio files so they can exist in their wonderful state outside of your studio. I highly recommend avoiding the temptation to carry plugin effects of anykind into a mix enviornment- too much can go wrong, and at the cost per hour of a dub stage, you do not want to be the problem ever...


charles maynes
Old 1st February 2007
  #53
Gear Maniac
 
G-lay's Avatar
euh...... boys and girls I didn't want to create a war of the DAW's just wanted some info for my humble set-up...

but thanks for the replies, I've seen some usefull ones

~ cheers

G-lay
Old 2nd February 2007
  #54
Lives for gear
 
Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-lay View Post
euh...... boys and girls I didn't want to create a war of the DAW's just wanted some info for my humble set-up...

but thanks for the replies, I've seen some usefull ones

~ cheers

G-lay
You didn't create a war G-lay. This happens every time a thread comparing DAW's surfaces here on GS. We're all just passionate about whatever tools we rely on.

While it can be a tough decision figuring out what best suits your needs, it really is awesome to think about all of the great choices out there nowadays
Old 12th February 2007
  #55
Here for the gear
 

Hello there! newbie here

We've been using AMS audiofile (Now SC) since 88 and we slowly shifted to PT about 5 years ago and its been great so far specially in mixing proceedures. We also use Digiperformer and Reason for music since you can now integrate Reason and PT
Old 12th February 2007
  #56
Lives for gear
 
minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by edboy7 View Post
Hello there! newbie here

We've been using AMS audiofile (Now SC) since 88 ....
having a problem reconciling these two statements.

define 'newbie'. anyone who started in post after 1981?

the AMS systems was way cool when it came out. sounded great, was pretty usable, and was cutting edge. (that tiny window struck me as a difficult and tiresome interface, but, hey this was early digital.). but at $100k and UP, they better sound good.

the last one in our town closed last year........
Old 12th February 2007
  #57
Gear Maniac
 
JimmySX's Avatar
 

Having worked for almost 7 years on AMS' Audiofile, I think it;s overrated nowadays. It's in no way a creative tool and to pay that amount of money for only an audio-editor is crazy. It was however challenging to work with it because it was different in every way I was used to work. Nowaday I'm happy with either Nuendo or PT. It doesn't matter for me anymore. The most important tools, I always have with me. These are my ears v1.0 heh
Old 12th February 2007
  #58
Lives for gear
 

I don't have any particular love for ProTools, although despite their preeminent market share they have made huge improvements in the program's post-audio aspects, improvements which are the reason that the dubstages etc have gone to using them nearly exclusively. For the rest of us who for whatever reason want to work on other systems for post, understand that a big chunk of homework is going to have to be done by you about how you will interface with those PT systems efficiently. This is not a trivial consideration or labor--it's a lot of testing and tracking a moving target. That said, it has been possible to make it all work together, so far.

Philip Perkins CAS
Old 13th February 2007
  #59
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
having a problem reconciling these two statements.

define 'newbie'. anyone who started in post after 1981?

the AMS systems was way cool when it came out. sounded great, was pretty usable, and was cutting edge. (that tiny window struck me as a difficult and tiresome interface, but, hey this was early digital.). but at $100k and UP, they better sound good.

the last one in our town closed last year........
oops just new on the boards i meanheh but I've been into posting since 95 and our company started 1988 using those green screen AMS audiofiles then Audiofile SC with toolbox paired with DNR console with 6.1 stem module. I think there are some positive news on replacing it with full a HD4 PT on PC and an Icon...well, keeping my fingers crossed
Hey minister, are you the same guy from DUC? thanks
Old 13th February 2007
  #60
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmySX View Post
Having worked for almost 7 years on AMS' Audiofile, I think it;s overrated nowadays. It's in no way a creative tool and to pay that amount of money for only an audio-editor is crazy. It was however challenging to work with it because it was different in every way I was used to work. Nowaday I'm happy with either Nuendo or PT.
But sometimes i miss audiofile just for its sheer editing power and speed. I strongly concurr as well, its overrated like Rolex if i may add heh im happy with my Casio
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump