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Geo's sound post corner Condenser Microphones
Old 8th July 2011
  #151
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Old 24th July 2011
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgia View Post
First rule of FCP... don't mix frame rates and, don't mix Video speed (23.97 fps) with film Speed (24 fps ) material in one time line.

FCP "frame rate" is the video frame rate setup in the sequence setup, in your case 23.97 ( Video speed) . Audio "frame rate" as you suggest does not have anything to do with the timeline frame rates.
When you import video and audio using a camera and FCP's log and capture, you are capturing at the video frame rate. If you are using a dual system, you capture at the video frame rate matching the video rate shot. ( again, in your case 23.97 Video speed) Make sure this is all set up in the session setup/ capture setup and sequence setup.

When you import audio standalone due to the use of a dual system, and drop the audio into the sequence, there is a rate conversion done by FCP to match the current timeline, even when the audio does not match the video frame rate. Therefore the audio may be slowed down or sped upa s the case may be. One of your issues is that FCP sets an NTSC VIDEO flag on the audio tracks even though they are shot at 24 ( film speed ).

You are probably seeing the video and audio in sync at the head of each clip, and as the timeline is played the audio drifts. you can ( although not recommend) chage the audio speed to match the video. I believe it's 99.9% or 100.1% depending on your drift problem. This will cause the audio to be resampled. ( for us audio purists, this is scary, as the audio has now be re-sampled twice)

Here's another way... ( can't absolutely promise success )
1. Select the problem sequence in the FCP browser, right-click it and choose Export > XML.
2. Open that XML file in a text editor.
3. Look for the tags <ntsc>.
If they all say <ntsc>TRUE</ntsc> or if they all say <ntsc>FALSE</ntsc>

then you don't have a problem.

But if there is a mix of TRUE and FALSE values, you need to change them so they are all the same. match the option to your video clip settings.

When you add a video clip to a sequence, FCP knows what frame rate to use. It just looks at the video clip properties. Audio doesn't have a frame rate like video, but FCP needs to assign it one because many editing operations are tied to the video frame rate. So when you add an audio clip to a sequence, FCP has to pick a frame rate for it. That choice is apparently made based on some combination of sequence and capture presets, and may depend more on what settings are in the cache than what are currently selected. And while FCP seems to be able to adapt to whatever frames-per-second are appropriate, it needs some help to get the NTSC values right.

hope this helps.

cheers
geo
Hi Geo,

Nice post, it has shed some light on a problem that I have now been trying to fix for a couple of days.

Have you found any other solutions to this problem. Usually I would not be syncing the final mix with the video again but for this project I have been asked to create a 5.1 Quick Time file for promotional DVD use.

The 99.9% reduction works but surely this cannot be the correct way to do it? After all of that hard work from everybody to keep everything perfectly in sync at this last stage should I be doing something as amateur as reducing the speed to 99.9%?

Thanks,

Graham
Old 25th July 2011
  #153
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hi graham,

Before I could offer more options, I need to understand the actual problem. But, here are some additional data on film material and sync'ing to NTSC Video speed.

POST 18 - in my thread has a nice PDF file with more data.
POST 19 - has some data on pullup/pulldown.
POST 88 - some math concerning Frame rate conversion.
POST 93 - frame and speed conversion data.
POST 136 - audio rate and process flow

this is also discussed in the post forum here a number of times in various threads... so take a poke around... if you still need some help, feel free to contact me.


cheers
geo
Old 4th August 2011
  #154
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Thanks so much for this Georgia, been reading this thread for the past couple days straight, great info!
Old 13th September 2011
  #155
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Georgia,

I have been reading your posts for years. Thank you for all the wonderful insight.

I have been doing production sound for 6 years now. We just finished a film with a great group of people. I just found out that the Post Production sound guy has been taking our 24 bit location sound and specifically requesting that the editors deliver 16 bit OMF's to him.

This is a big deal, right? Any advice?

Thank you!
Old 13th October 2011
  #156
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actually... no. its not a big deal. most projects, especially indie end up 16 bit anyway. There are reasons to stay 24 bit. but in my experience, there are way bigger issues to getting good audio recording and good mixes delivered, than the difference between 16 and 24 bit. I wouldn't worry about it.

Just make sure it is properly dithered.


cheers
geo
Old 16th November 2011
  #157
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Music Levels for Film and Television

Hi Georgia,

First I'd like to thank you for sharing your knowledge; it's wonderful to have folks like you contributing to this forum.

I'd like your opinion on a specific question I have. I work with music artists who often have song placement in film and television. My question is this:

Would post sound mixers prefer to have premaster mixes that have not been maximized in level, or post mastering house mixes that have been prepared for distribution?

Thanks in advance,

Michael
Old 17th November 2011
  #158
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Question: Would post sound mixers prefer to have premaster (Music) mixes that have not been maximized in level, or post mastering house mixes that have been prepared for distribution?

Music for film , IMHO, should not be "mastered" to an inch of its life. I like my music materials to come in around -12 or so. Frankly, it really doesn't matter too much as long as its not completely crushed up to 0. Also, There are normally 4 types of music in film, non-digetic score, non-Digetic songs, and Digetic songs and Digetic score. Digetic score doesn't happen often but it does once in a while. Each has its' own place in the film and each has its own issues. So, the short answer is I prefer non mastered material.
Here's some more detail on why I want unmastered material and how I like to receive it prior to re-recording.

For a song, digetic or not, I prefer to get the material delivered in both an instrumental version and a full version with vocals. With these to I can edit between them to assure that music vocals does not interfere with dialogue.
I can lay both tracks into the mix and edit between them, such that I can maintain the emotional level of the music under ( or over) the dialogue and not get into a fighting match. Frankly I normally end up editing songs extensively in a mix to get everything right where I and/or the director want it.

Score is a bit different. I prefer, for a lot of the same reasons to get the completed score in 5.1 delivered as a single stem. In addition to the 5.1 Music Score stem, I want the score delivered as additional 5.1 stems with each "section" of the orchestra (or band) split. IE: Strings, Horns, percussion, Reeds, lead Instrumentation, all on different 5.1 stems such that, when combines at unity gain, they create the full 5.1 stem. This way the director and I have a little wiggle room to manipulate the score into the film with a bit more control of everything, other than just overall volume and EQ. This approach lets me "place" sections where I want in space, level, depth, etc... and I always have the full "mixed" 5.1 score available for the majority of the project. It also allows me more control when cutting up the score where necessary.

it's not that much more work for the composer's engineer, they just have to mute sections and run the prints of the music for me.

More work for me, but makes me happier to really integrate the score into the overall sound design.

cheers
geo
Old 17th November 2011
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgia View Post
Question: Would post sound mixers prefer to have premaster (Music) mixes that have not been maximized in level, or post mastering house mixes that have been prepared for distribution?

Music for film , IMHO, should not be "mastered" to an inch of its life. I like my music materials to come in around -12 or so. Frankly, it really doesn't matter too much as long as its not completely crushed up to 0. Also, There are normally 4 types of music in film, non-digetic score, non-Digetic songs, and Digetic songs and Digetic score. Digetic score doesn't happen often but it does once in a while. Each has its' own place in the film and each has its own issues. So, the short answer is I prefer non mastered material.
Here's some more detail on why I want unmastered material and how I like to receive it prior to re-recording.

For a song, digetic or not, I prefer to get the material delivered in both an instrumental version and a full version with vocals. With these to I can edit between them to assure that music vocals does not interfere with dialogue.
I can lay both tracks into the mix and edit between them, such that I can maintain the emotional level of the music under ( or over) the dialogue and not get into a fighting match. Frankly I normally end up editing songs extensively in a mix to get everything right where I and/or the director want it.

Score is a bit different. I prefer, for a lot of the same reasons to get the completed score in 5.1 delivered as a single stem. In addition to the 5.1 Music Score stem, I want the score delivered as additional 5.1 stems with each "section" of the orchestra (or band) split. IE: Strings, Horns, percussion, Reeds, lead Instrumentation, all on different 5.1 stems such that, when combines at unity gain, they create the full 5.1 stem. This way the director and I have a little wiggle room to manipulate the score into the film with a bit more control of everything, other than just overall volume and EQ. This approach lets me "place" sections where I want in space, level, depth, etc... and I always have the full "mixed" 5.1 score available for the majority of the project. It also allows me more control when cutting up the score where necessary.

it's not that much more work for the composer's engineer, they just have to mute sections and run the prints of the music for me.

More work for me, but makes me happier to really integrate the score into the overall sound design.

cheers
geo
Geo,

Thank you for you kind response.

My question deals specifically with artist song placement in film and television. The manner in which the song is presented within the context of the visual media is not of concern. But I appreciate your overview of the categories music falls under in postproduction for those who are unaware. :-)

Regards,

Michael

Last edited by blackfishpod; 18th November 2011 at 10:30 AM.. Reason: The question posed has in some respect been answered.
Old 20th November 2011
  #160
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For songs that are recorded for other projects and CDs etc, ending up in a film score - Most music editors and re-recording engineers just deal with what they get. I've gotten music mixed and mastered, just mixed and not mastered, alternative mixes just for the project. Nothing really specific to offer here, other than if the possibility exists to talk to the sound team on the film prior to deliver and, with the options of specific delivery/mix changes, then you can make a lot of folks much happier in the dub stage.

cheers
geo
Old 23rd November 2011
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgia View Post
For songs that are recorded for other projects and CDs etc, ending up in a film score - Most music editors and re-recording engineers just deal with what they get. I've gotten music mixed and mastered, just mixed and not mastered, alternative mixes just for the project. Nothing really specific to offer here, other than if the possibility exists to talk to the sound team on the film prior to deliver and, with the options of specific delivery/mix changes, then you can make a lot of folks much happier in the dub stage.

cheers
geo
Thank you once again for your insight, Geo.

m
Old 31st December 2011
  #162
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Difference between a BUS and an AUX.

A BUS, in the audio world, is an internal routing path on a physical console or DAW used to move route audio from one place to another.

An AUXILIARY CHANNEL is a channel with inserts, sends, and an input and output used to return audio from a source (like a BUS) , back to a BUS, or other "sub-master" or "master" audio path..

Send to the BUS and route the BUS to an AUXILIARY for a return.
A bus is normally a channel path used to move data ( or audio) from one place to anther. An Auxiliary Channel is normally used to return audio back to another BUS which, normally, might be routed to the MASTER FADER or to yet another BUS or MASTER output.

IE: audio on an audio track (lets say a Dialogue track) is routed to the main dialogue BUS which is assigned to a GROUP DIALOGUE MASTER ( using an AUX Channel or Group VCA channel FADER) where it's output is then routed to the the MAIN MIX BUS, which in turn is routed to a MASTER FADER on an AUX Channel, or in protools or DAWs a MASTER CHANNEL (or MASTER FADER) (which is by definition just another AUX CHANNEL that happens to be specialized).
You can also utilize a BUS to send the same dialogue audio from the audio track to another AUX CHANNEL that has a REVERB or DELAY on it so that you can add a specific amount of "reverberation" to the dialogue. The out of this bus is another AUX CHANNEL where the reveb plug in is placed in the audio channel on the AUX CHANNEL ( sometimes called a RETURN). If you were using an outboard reverb, you would assign the output of the BUS used for reverb, to an OUTPUT where you would patch into an outboard reverb unit. From the outboard reverb, you would then route the reverb output back INTO the DAW or CONSOLE using a RETURN or AUX RETURN or AUX CHANNEL (all basically the same thing , just different names). Then you might route the dialogue reverb aux return to the DIALOGUE STEM (read: DIALOGUE BUS) which is then sent to the MASTER bus and out the MASTER OUTPUT.
Old 4th January 2012
  #163
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"IMHO
Pay close attention to sound, just like you do to the lighting, and framing. Use a dual system when and where ever possible. Utilize a LAV mic ( wireless ) for each main character in a scene and use at least 1 stick with a shotgun mic…."
Georgia, I have a question about this quote above in regards to Lav mics and booming together -
Would you say that the rational is that the Lav is always at the same distance from the actor’s mouth and if he/she turns their head suddenly, their voice won’t drop out as it might if the boom opp is slow to respond?
I've read that the mixer has to be ready to turn one of the Lavs down if one actor gets too close to the other during a conversation, or just mic one of the actors.
In my short films I’ve mostly just used a shotgun mic on a boom, but maybe I could’ve done better with both.
If you could speak a little more as to the industry standard on this I'd appreciate it.
Thanks –
Craig Tarry
Concord, Ca.
Old 4th January 2012
  #164
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I can't speak to industry standard as I am not a location sound person. There are a number here, on this forum, who are better qualified to tell you , but what I believe and what I try to do is to make sure there is a high quality team on the production audio. A recordist and a boom op. I request that we utilize at least a single boom, but i love when we can have a second boom. I also like to lav every major speaking character for each scene. Another option I like is to even use static mics where possible to help. For instance, a mic on the camera rig, or a mic behind a bar, or nearby off camera... It give me lots of options in post. The more options in post for production audio , the more options I have to make the project sound better. I use specific subsets of these for each shot, depending on location issues and scene requirements.

cheers
geo
Old 5th January 2012
  #165
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Thanks for your reply Geo, I've never heard the term static mic (I'm more a director/producer, so my sound learning is always lagging)
A static mic would capture local sounds from a portion of the set, or general ambience near the static mic? It sounds sort of like what you said about setting up mics for an orchestra.
Thanks again - Craig
Old 5th January 2012
  #166
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that's what I call it. It's also called a spot mic. It's just a mic stuck somewhere hidden on a set. here's a for instance.... we shot a film in a NYC in a jail. We had a scene to shoot . A very long dolly down a cell block. Each cell in the block had an actor with a line. sometimes talking to themselves, sometimes yelling out as the camera passed by and finally landed on a guy at the end of the cell block talking to himself. The cell block had a tight walk area and a set of bars around 4 feet from the front of the cells creating a long "hallway" . with a huge dolly and crew and gear it would have been very very difficult to have a boom op walk the lenght of the shot getting all the audio. so, we staged mics in every cell just above the heads of the actors where they wouldn't be seen in frame. We also stuck a mic on the dolly and positioned it on a stick just outside frame.
We lav'd a couple of the actors just to be safe. And with all the mics open we had 16 tracks of audio getting recorded during the takes. A jail is a very noisy and reverberant place to record and we wanted a very intimate sound in the audio and the shot was designed to a med close as the camera passed each actor... so we didn't want to deal with ADR since it was to be a very emotional scene.

it worked like a charm.

I've used spot mics in a lot of places during shoots for extra coverage.

I'm a firm believer is audio is 51% of the picture. if you have a picture issue (bad framing, focus, lighting not perfect, etc) for a moment most people will deal with it. But an audio screw up... tends to pull people out of the moment and back to reality... makes people lose that moment of suspended disbelief that is critical to keep you "in" the story.

Cheers
geo
Old 6th January 2012
  #167
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Wow! I see what you mean! Now you’ve got me thinking!

I’ve got a scene with two guys at a coffee table and a third guy cooking in an adjoining kitchen. There is dialogue from all three and two noisy college kids enter the kitchen and pass down a hall at the end.

I’m planning on pre-recording a lot of the sounds ahead of time:
1. Vegetables being chopped on a cutting board
2. Pots and pans scraping on stove-top burners
3. The hiss of steam
4. A door banging open
5. Footsteps

Of course, putting all those sounds in during post would take a lot of time.
Perhaps the best way would be to Lav the three guys, use a spot mic at the door for the kids and a second boom over the kitchen area for the cooking sounds? I might save the pre-recorded sounds for a back-up.
Any thoughts?

Thanks - Craig
Old 6th January 2012
  #168
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give it a go... sounds like it'll work. and if not, here's another quick tip.

If your in a situation where you can't get good audio, and you feel that ADR might be an issue down the road, you shoot for the scene and try to get the best audio you can, and then...shoot the exact same scene again, right way.
Have the director call it to just "go again!" no cut, no nothing..... back to 1 and go. BUT.. have the boom op get right in frame... Yup... right in frame where ever he or she wants to be.... screw the picture.... but you run the scene again exactly as before..and focus all the efforts on SOUND. if you run a couple of these you'll have some great "on location ADR" to work with for the good cut the director liked. And, you get some great behind the scenes footage to boot. the idea here is that you go right after the "great take" while everyone is in the same frame of mind, and emotion and they have a bit of "muscle memory" left from the last take so the audio delivery matches but the audio is all close mic'd.

We shot a scene like this for a film in Harlem. It's a wide establishing shot with the camera tilting down from the side of a building to a door and then watching the four actors walk up the block and get in a car and drive off. Dialogue the whole way. we set up a lav on each main character, but the we didn't have lav's (don't ask the line producer refused to pay for extra lav's) so we shot a couple takes and right after the director told me he had the take he wanted we "went again"... with the sound crew in frame as I mentioned... got great audio that perfectly matched the scene in emotional level and delivery because was still in character and the delivery was very very close to the good take, so with a little editing in post we locked it right up.

cheers
geo
Old 6th January 2012
  #169
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Great idea. Thanks.

Walter Murch said they did a similar thing when they filmed the opening scene from “The Conversation” in Union Square in San Francisco because the dialogue was so muddy. He took the couple to a quieter park and had them walk around and say their lines. They were still in character and rhythm.

One last question: I read that by 2013 all movie theaters will be projecting digital, rendering 35mm release mostly obsolete (except for some small theaters, perhaps)
Could this mean that Indie filmmakers might no longer have to pay for having their films transferred to 35mm film? I’d love to cross that off my projected feature budget.

A pleasure exchanging posts with you, so great to have pro advice - Craig
Old 7th January 2012
  #170
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I haven't heard anything about that, but indie film makers don't have to now.... you can shoot 35mm or digital and post fully digital, and project via Digital, either as a DCP ( Digital Conema Package), SXRD (Sony's version of 4k and 2K) Digitally off disk to projection, digital tape, or even Blu-Ray, DVD if you have to....
If you search for DCI (Digital Cinema Initiative) or JPEG2000 you can find out more.

cheers
geo
Old 7th January 2012
  #171
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Thanks Geo, I'll research that and see what happens. Thanks for your help and take care on the East Coast.
I'll look forward to reading your future posts.
Craig
Concord, Ca
Oh, and go 49ers!
Old 18th February 2012
  #172
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Practicality of recording wild tracks for your M & E

Hi Geo,
The way I understand the making of a feature film M & E track, all the production dialogue, on site recorded sound, (footsteps, plates clacking, etc.) are removed, then the sound editor goes back through the entire film and replaces those on site sounds, (footsteps, plates clacking, etc.) along with ambience and the music score to make the final, clean, M & E track.
This sounds labor intensive and expensive, so I was wondering if time and money can be saved if during production, the actors run through a take without dialogue for every angle shot, thereby recording a “wild” effects track to be used for the M & E.
Recording wild tracks are done for dialogue is common, since actors are usually still “in-time” with previous takes, so I was thinking that the same would be true for having actors go through a take without speaking and recording the other sounds they make.
As always I’d appreciate your opinion on this
Thanks - Craig
Old 18th February 2012
  #173
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When it comes to deliveries for a feature film, it all depends on the film. The budget, the size, the scope, the deliverables, the time allocated...

Let's start with production, since you discuss that in your question.
During production things can get a bit out of control. The lower the budget and the tighter the time constraints, the more common the mistakes. These are the times you would want to grab a "wild line or eight...". This is also the time you're most likely to not have the time. Yes, it would be nice if you could stop production, grab the actors and the director and run off to a quiet spot away from the rest of the crew setting up for the next shot.... Most likely... ain't gonna happen.

One of the most important aspects of good sound is simply good sound crew and planning. I'll refrain from going down a rathole here and focus on the question at hand. For now, lets assume I just spent 30 minutes ranting about having the sound crew involved during pre-production, location scouting, and planning. We'll also pretend I spent another 20 minutes on my constant soapbox battle about spending a reasonable portion of the allocated time budget of set preparation on SOUND.

Once you are on set recording, and the cast and crew are shooting, it's too late to fix a lot of things, so you do the best you can.

Critical things I try to ensure my sound team does on set.

1. Hanging sound blankets off camera where necessary.
2. turning off things that go "buzz"
3. dealing with any generator noise issues.
4. Resolving pops, squeaks, and other sounds from set, cast and crew that we don't want recorded.
5. Independent channels of recorded dialogue
6. mic'ing of all principle speaking cast for each scene
7. Boom positioning
8. monitoring for off set noises
9. when possible and practical .. and if necessary, dropping the occasional spot mic in a location off camera...

Now the really important ones for the post team.

1. Room tone! lost and lots of room tone!
2. Wild takes of specific sound we want. ( doors, switches, floor squeaks etc)
3. When we can.... Wild lines from actors

I love getting wild lines from actors... If you surf Gearslutz and DUC, as well as my blog on FIlmDoctors.com (and the free resources I have for download) you'll see that I've rescued more than one scene by doing these. Sometimes you can get wild lines, or for that matter, even room tone...and sometimes it just isn't going to happen.

The most important thing you can to to assure good sound on set is to make buddy buddy with the AD... so you can get the time to do all the items listed above.



When the dust settles, A lot of work goes into Filled M&Es, whether you do the work in production, in post, or both... All I can add at this point, is that if the delivery calls for filled M&E's make sure that you talk to the production sound crew, and verify you have the materials you need to deliver a quality fully filled M&E... If you don't better plan on a few late nights in the Foley pit and, in edit, to correct, replace, and create the world around the actors... Its' always interesting to MUTE the dialogue stem and start rebuilding.

cheers
geo
Old 18th February 2012
  #174
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Thanks Geo, a very detailed and informative reply as always. Much appreciated and take care, Craig
Old 4th March 2012
  #175
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I was asked today...
How Important is Your Independent Film Music Score?

....thats like asking How important is your next independent film DP, Editor, or Sound designer.... really? ok.. now i'll stop picking on you. (all in jest)

It's extremely important. And its not just the score, its ALL the music. Take your morning coffee, sit in front of your computer, pop in a movie... any movie.... turn the sound off. Then turn on your stereo, Itunes, Ipod, whatever.. and watch the same scene(s) with various music from your library... classical, film score, rock, pop, reggie, hiphop, anything.. fast tunes, slow tunes, sad tunes, happy tunes, sombre tunes, driving tunes, grab your old guitar or sit at your piano and play to the scene... Unless you have no emotions, you will feel the scene differently with each music selection.

Now, consider YOUR film.. in a theater, with all your HARD WORK... and with the wrong score....

'nuff said...

cheers
geo
Old 4th March 2012
  #176
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Reverse Engineering a resolution/sync issue conundrum

Hi, Georgia, this thread is amazing!

I was wondering if you might be able suggest a solution to a FCP nightmare I'm in the middle of. A friend made an amazing video for a song by my band. When the project began, he requested an mp3 of the preliminary mix of the song to edit his footage to. Neither of us was aware of the various sync issues with editing video to an audio file of incorrect resolution so in my ignorance I sent him a run-of-the-mill 44.1 MP3. You can see where this is going.

So now he has painstakingly edited the video, finishing it just a couple days before he's to leave the country for a month. Right on time, our mastering engineer gets me a final mastered version of the final mix. I send that to our video editor and you know what happens next. The new audio won't sync to the video!

So, we quickly figured out what the problem was and figured, okay, if I send the new mix in the exact same format, etc, then FCP will simply recreate the errant conversion and even though the audio would be slightly different than what it's supposed to be (like just barely time stretched) well it's just for online release via youtube so as long as it's in sync then we can overlook that the audio is not of the highest fidelity.

But no matter how I send it over, we can't get the audio to sync up. I'm left with "how do I recreate the errant conversion from 44.1 to 48 that FCP did". Does that make sense? Or is there an algorithm for what the conversion between 44.1 to 48 did that I could recreate with a time stretching plug-in in my audio software (Samplitude)?

Of course now the video is due on a publicist's desk soon and I'm left with trying to create an audio file that will sync up. Any advice you could provide would be SO helpful. This is clearly waaayy over my head Re-editing the video isn't an option at the moment without seriously setting us back and missing an important opportunity. Ugh.
Old 4th March 2012
  #177
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Just to assure I understand. The picture edit was done to an MP3 audio file that was output from your protool session. So, lets start with the basics:
How was the music video shot? HD SD, 23.976, 29.97,24 ?
How was the music played back on set?
How was the music recorded and laid back into FCP for editorial?
Was the editorial completed using YOUR audio mix or from audio played on set and used as guide tracks?
What is the FRAME RATE of the video edit time line?
What is the SAMPLE RATE of the video edit time line?

The reason i'm asking is that I want to make sure that right off the bat the picture editor was working on audio running at the same SPEED and PITCH as the mix you were working on.

So,
If the editor edited to the wrong SPEED you will never get it to sync. You'll have to conform the video to the final mix.

If you provided him a 44.1 KHZ file set it probably wasn't MP3, it was probably a quicktime audio file or a quicktime "video" file of audio. If you output the original mix at 44.1 and you are mixing at 48... well the basic answer is sample rate is not your DIRECT issue... speed again IS the issue.

More questions:

Have you tried to import the completed video into protools and looked at the sync issue?
Is the sync issue related to an overall consistent falling off of sync?
Is the sync issue related to a cut by cut issue?
Is the sync off from start to finish consistently?
How far out is the sync.. Is it off by a frame or two at the end of 3 minutes?


this one is going to be a bit tricky as I don't have enough information. call me I'll chat off line 917-279-4413

cheers
geo

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Old 4th March 2012
  #178
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Oh thanks SO much for your quick reply. Before I contact you offline I'll need to contact my video editor for a few of the details you requested but here is a rundown of what I know:

-Video was shot on a Canon HD rig, not exactly sure of the settings (will find out)
-The MP3 file it was shot to was played over loudspeakers during shooting. This was also the very same MP3 file he plugged into FCP and edited to. As far as I know, during editing there weren't any sync issues. Perhaps we lucked out there as he got it synced up really well. The only sync issues were when he tried to plug in the mastered version of the final mix. THEN we experienced audio drift out of sync issues where I could visually line up the waveforms at a certain point but then it would drift out of sync later on in the songs.
- I had him output audio from his FCP workspace and send it to me so I could plug it into my audio software for comparison. It is off. HOWEVER when I import the original un-FCP-touched file that I sent him to edit to (it really was a 44.1 MP3) into my audio software and put the new mastered version in there on a new track they match up PERFECTLY. So it really is an issue of how FCP brought that track in and converted it. All the mixing/mastering we did on the song was done at the same resolution.

I'm sure his timeline/workspace settings figure greatly into this and I'll hopefully get that info from him soon and get in touch. I really appreciate you taking a moment to reply to my ridiculous problem

Thanks!

Marc
Old 4th March 2012
  #179
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georgia's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
you just gave us a very important clue.... he edited to the audio played back on set. IF the audio was played back on set on anything other than the same reference the camera was locked to.. you are basically screwed. Especially if the audio was played from a consumer or pro-sumer playback device like an MP3 player.... The the stuff is going to drift all over.

If you take the audio from the edit that the editor used from the actual SET audio ( I assume he was using a reference audio track from the camera ).... use that audio... put it in your protools session and see how bad the drift is.

My guess is you are mixing a recording done in the studio, and the editor used the reference cut from a non sync'd device that was not running with a video ref, or timecode ref... so if the video was cut to this, the master audio from your mix will probably never sync without going thru a "trimming" effort in FCP to re-sync to the master audio...

In a high end music video shoot the audio and video crew are very careful to run the audio at speed with lock to picture... and the ones i've done. we dropped the ref audio from the shoot into FCP and then added in the MASTER audio ( final mix or not as long as there as to be no time changes ) and I edit to the MASTER... So, even if there is a tiny differential, I can play with sync on each cut and lock it to the master.

cheers
geo


cheers
geo
Old 22nd March 2012
  #180
Lives for gear
 
rocksure's Avatar
Hey just thought I would say thank you for taking the time to post all this stuff on here. Such a wealth of information. Much appreciated, as it's a good source to come back to to look for stuff when you need answers to tricky questions. Keep up the good work.
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