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$125 to anyone who can integrate this ADR..
Old 15th January 2015
  #91
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Just read this and perhaps you'll notice both a pattern and a problem.
You mean the fact that you're taking everything I've said out of context and haven't got the facts straight, including the differences between the two jobs and how many different people I've worked with? Read on.

Quote:
1. In June you offer $150.
I had no idea what was right to offer. None at all. I've never worked in your field. I don't know how easy it is/was to perform this task. I offered what I thought was right at a guess. Show me how many people said "This amount is preposterous and I will not work for it!" (if at all) and I can show you others who gave every indication that it was a fair amount.

Importantly, the $150 was for a completely different job - that is, primarily, removing the horrible buzz which we had on our original audio. The ADR was there but was an additional part to it.

Quote:
2. Result:

and call it

3. Then months later and it's all of a sudden so bad you can't release your film. Your solution? Offer $25 less for the job.
False and you're welcome to apologise for it - since in the latter post I offered this amount solely for integrating the ADR. Given that to the best of my knowledge improving two lines of audio was less work than fixing five minutes of audio, the amount I offered relatively has increased. Continue to read on.

Quote:
4. Then, again:

5. Months later: Still not good enough

Your words. Chronological order.
My words, chronological order, used incorrectly and out of context. Once again, I'd like you to challenge me that that isn't true. You can use my words again if you like to do so. Take them from anywhere.

In the original thread, I had a very short amount of time left in which to enter the film to a competition, to a low budget filmmaking organisation whose book I'd used to make the film in the first place. I can even tell you why it was so last minute before henchman or anyone else says "Should've done it right the first time etc." So that was what the first job was for - again, you can use my words to check that if you like. They're all there. It still wasn't good enough to be listened to without hearing the issues, but I used the best I had and most of it was really good. I did not use the work of everyone who contributed to it, but I paid everyone nonetheless. Everyone.

This time around, I wanted the final bugs worked out, and I had the luxury of not having such a time restriction.

Quote:
- How are you NOT giving people a completely wrong impression when you say first that it's unlikely that anyone will create something perfect, then that "miracles are being performed", that it's "amazing work", then it doesn't work, then that it "sounds incredible", yet later - again - that it's insufficient...
I was talking about removal of the buzz, as well as other elements. As we all know, the audio is horrible but the original was even worse. I wasn't talking about integrating the ADR, but I was saying how vastly the whole thing had improved. Also note the present continuous tense: being performed. It's not incriminating for me to be complimentary about people in your profession and saying that minor miracles are being performed is not the same as saying "it's all perfect even though it's not actually done yet and everyone is perfect and I'll never need any work ever again."

Additionally, I was talking about an engineer when referring to the minor miracles who is far more dignified than most of the people who've "contributed" to this thread, and who was happy to take what I offered, and work with me in my ignorance. He is one of several who approached me via PM. His track without the buzz is what I've used as a basis for the entire film, alongside some other improvements and so it was just that ADR which was left. Otherwise, it was 95% finished except for that and that's why I came back here with this thread.

Quote:
And those are all your words from this and your original thread, not what others claimed you said in private (which one is now inclined to believe to be correctly described).
I stand by my words and I'm waiting for you to prove what I've said above as wrong and back-up your original claims.

Quote:
For $125, why would someone do work for someone who doesn't expect miracles, then gives such glowing reviews of the work, only to then publicly state the work was so poor it couldn't even be used?
It wasn't his work I was reviewing and even then it was clearly very general. I paid about five people for work in the end. I didn't state the quality of that individual's work you're referring to until he outed himself and publicly criticised the fact that I was posting it again - even though, having worked with me, he would be more likely than anyone to know the nature of the previous job. Again, it's all there for you to see. I worked with some great individuals from here. You can take selectively what I've said to damn me all you like but everything is there as a whole which backs up everything I've said.

Quote:
Would you work for someone who did that to you as a director?
If I'd done what you've accused me of, then definitely not. But go back and prove that what I've just told you isn't true.
Old 15th January 2015
  #92
Lives for gear
 
JSt0rm's Avatar
can we get this thread moved to post jobs offered so it can die a horrible death. I would say in the future we shouldnt have any jobs threads in the normal forums. They just **** things up.
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Old 15th January 2015
  #93
Lives for gear
 

Ok buddy, you win. I apologize. Although I'm sad to miss out on $125, I'm happy we can have this conversation - something that can't be had on Craigslist.

Carry on.
Old 15th January 2015
  #94
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
can we get this thread moved to post jobs offered so it can die a horrible death. I would say in the future we shouldnt have any jobs threads in the normal forums. They just **** things up.
Yes. This.
Old 15th January 2015
  #95
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Ok buddy, you win. I apologize. Although I'm sad to miss out on $125, I'm happy we can have this conversation - something that can't be had on Craigslist.

Carry on.
You got your facts wrong and I didn't do what you said I did. That's not my fault. Whether you want to deal with that maturely, or throw your toys out the pram and join the sarcastic one-liner brigade, is up to you.
Old 16th January 2015
  #96
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
Scott - for some reason you are trying very, very hard to make out that I'm unreasonable, aren't accepting the reality and am still asking this to be worked on.. when I've clearly already accepted not just once but twice some of the same advice you're claiming to give me now.

Except the difference is that you were one of quite a few who were happy to take my money first (and the only one to ask for even more afterwards) before doing so, because you claimed you could fix it. And if someone tells me they can fix it, then I've wanted to explore every possibility rather than waste everything I've done so far, because it's not just me I wanted to complete this for, but the others who worked on it with me - they too have nothing to show for their hard work and I am fully responsible for it.

That's exactly what's led me to a position where I've been told "Oh sure, I can do this," when money is on the table, and only afterwards be told "Oh no, the files were terrible - you should never have expected it to be fixed. By the way, I've worked on this anyway - so now you owe me."

(Note that not everyone has done this however - I've had some good experiences with people from here too).

The idea of coming to this forum was to reach the widest number of experts at once, rather than go to singular professionals and throw money at it without any idea if I was being taken advantage of. Clearly some people have taken issue with that, but the idea that I've taken advantage of others in the process is only and continues to be a lie. I'll defend accusations of it every time, and so that's why this thread is still going.
I'm not *trying* to say you're unreasonable. I'm *flat out* saying it.

You have expectations that exceed what the original content you produced can do. You want it to do things it can't. You're asking that a mule be made derby-ready. Sorry, Lee, it's a mule. We can wash the **** off, comb the hair, and clean its teeth well enough that the Queen might think she's looking in the mirror, but this equine will win no races.

When I took the job, I believed I could turn unlistenable audio into functional audio. And I did just that. I polished a turd, which is no exaggeration. I stayed up into the "wee" hours to get the audio ready for your film debut. Yes, I asked for more money, but only after you asked for additional changes and sent along the ADR to be integrated, which was not previously in the scope of work. Don't be underhanded about this. Or perhaps "Schnide" and "snide" have a closer meaning than previously thought...

At no point did I promise a masterpiece, a Citizen Kane, THX-, or 3D IMAX-level stuff. I made horrible, horrible audio tolerable, and in the best case scenario, something that might pass unnoticeable as altered. That's the best that could be expected of anyone.

When you asked for help on this forum, several of us (five or so, really?!) responded, perhaps unwittingly thinking that we could make something listenable for you. We all have done our best to make it work, but you kept asking for more corrections. mattiasnyc has pointed this out quite well. And it's this repeated pattern that is irritating.

"Professionals" and "experts" have informed you that your audio wasn't good enough to make something great... good maybe, but not great. And those same "professionals" and "experts" are telling you that you're conducting your business poorly.

Try this:
1. Stop posting to this forum/thread. It's doing no one any good. You or us.
2. Release your film. Seriously. Do it. Let it out into the wild. Put yourself out there in a good way.
3. Make another film. Do even better with all the knowledge you have now.
4. Go to step 3.

Last edited by tourmore; 16th January 2015 at 02:35 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 16th January 2015
  #97
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmore View Post
I'm not *trying* to say you're unreasonable. I'm *flat out* saying it.
I know you're flat-out saying it. What I'm saying is that you're trying to make it true when it isn't.

Quote:
You have expectations that exceed what the original content you produced can do. You want it to do things it can't. You're asking that a mule be made derby-ready. Sorry, Lee, it's a mule. We can wash the **** off, comb the hair, and clean its teeth well enough that the Queen might think she's looking in the mirror, but this equine will win no races.
You told me I'd be "very happy" with the results. You knew what my (unqualified and inexperienced) requirements were. Only now do you tell me it couldn't have been done and then you contradict yourself below. Which is it?

Quote:
When I took the job, I believed I could turn unlistenable audio into functional audio. And I did just that. I polished a turd, which is no exaggeration. I stayed up into the "wee" hours to get the audio ready for your film debut. Yes, I asked for more money, but only after you asked for additional changes and sent along the ADR to be integrated, which was not previously in the scope of work. Don't be underhanded about this. Or perhaps "Schnide" and "snide" have a closer meaning than previously thought...
The post you responded to mentions the ADR publicly.

Quote:
At no point did I promise a masterpiece, a Citizen Kane, THX-, or 3D IMAX-level stuff. I made horrible, horrible audio tolerable, and in the best case scenario, something that might pass unnoticeable as altered. That's the best that could be expected of anyone.

When you asked for help on this forum, several of us (five or so, really?!)
..yes, and that was just from one of the threads..

Quote:
responded, perhaps unwittingly thinking that we could make something listenable for you. We all have done our best to make it work, but you kept asking for more corrections.
So why did I need to ask for corrections?

Quote:
mattiasnyc has pointed this out quite well. And it's this repeated pattern that is irritating.
I'm still waiting for him to answer the points I've raised with him, just as I did with the points he raised against me (even though he's never worked with me).

Quote:
"Professionals" and "experts" have informed you that your audio wasn't good enough to make something great... good maybe, but not great. And those same "professionals" and "experts" are telling you that you're conducting your business poorly.

Try this:
1. Stop posting to this forum/thread. It's doing no one any good. You or us.
2. Release your film. Seriously. Do it. Let it out into the wild. Put yourself out there in a good way.
3. Make another film. Do even better with all the knowledge you have now.
4. Go to step 3.
And you've done this part already.

Here's this question for you again: Why were you so keen to work with me again in future (an offer I appreciated) if I was so terrible to work with? My answer is that I was not, but you were aggrieved that I didn't take you up on it. And now you're taking this line instead.

I never mentioned your name in anything. You're the one who chose to make it public instead of just asking me about it.
Old 16th January 2015
  #98
Gear Head
 

Lee, I didn't know you were being as awful as you were until I saw this new thread and the many responses of my fellow engineers who've come forward to call you out on your methods. Please leave. Don't come back here.
Old 16th January 2015
  #99
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
I'm still waiting for him to answer the points I've raised with him, just as I did with the points he raised against me (even though he's never worked with me).
What I was trying to point out is that your conduct and way of expressing yourself gives a certain impression. If you don't want to be misunderstood then say what you mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
Having listened to all the options, I'm going to go with dariva's version. It sounds incredible, but thanks again to everyone else who put themselves forward.
That's pretty unambiguous. This is in this thread, which is about ADR as you pointed out, and you're saying that his version sounds incredible. Of course both he and us will think that what he has created is done. "incredible" is not ambiguous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
The work wasn't finished and the follow-up lines for additional work somehow sounded even worse than they were originally supplied.
See this is where it looks murky. You have several people try to fix your problem, with only one promised to get paid for doing the work. It looks like you've found your man - since the work "sounds incredible" - so of course he should be paid. As he described, as you implied, and as you have yet to deny, you then not only added more work to it ("follow-up lines for additional work") but the "incredible" lines now according to you are not what you wanted. How do you go from "incredible" to not what you wanted?

If what you both say is true then you're sitting on at least some ADR that he made that you're not using because you never paid him either because it's not good enough while simultaneously being "incredible", or because you thought the additional work wasn't up to par, in which case you could still just pay him for the "incredible" work and have someone else do the rest.
Old 16th January 2015
  #100
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
What I was trying to point out is..
I've no idea who you are, and you and I have never worked together. You are going off the select words of other people on this thread, almost all of whom I've not worked with either. In doing so, you made accusations that didn't stand up and then responded with this instead of saying "Okay, I commented and got those facts wrong."

I addressed every point you made, which I'm assuming you would've wanted unless you were just jumping on a bandwagon of the select few snarky individuals who enjoy having a pop at an amateur. If you want me to do the same to the above (including how I emailed dariva at the time and said that we should work something out so he could still get paid, which he didn't respond to) then I can.

But if you're still trying to throw whatever at me and see what sticks, then that's only perpetuating what's been said already and only giving me more to defend against. Which I have, and which I will continue to do so, because it isn't true.
Old 16th January 2015
  #101
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmore View Post
Lee, I didn't know you were being as awful as you were until I saw this new thread and the many responses of my fellow engineers who've come forward to call you out on your methods. Please leave. Don't come back here.
You didn't know I was being as awful as that before? Scott, you've literally just proven that what you said about having a similarly awful experience was untrue.

You didn't have a bad experience, in fact quite the opposite - you've openly stated you felt insulted because we didn't work together again. If I was being awful, at all, and doing half of what was accused, you wouldn't have offered to work with me again, especially on any future projects completely of your own volition and when there wasn't even money on the table, too.

And you didn't come back to complain about my alleged working practices, you came back to publicly complain that I didn't take you up on that offer - that doesn't sound very awful to work with now, does it? Otherwise, I didn't and wouldn't have disparaged you - and given that this thread was solely about two lines of ADR, instead of the wider piece you'd worked on, it didn't even say your work wasn't up to scratch the first time. If you're aggrieved, be aggrieved about what you're really aggrieved about instead of trying to turn it into something it isn't. It's not true.

All this is a side issue compared to the below though, so let's get to the very heart of it:

This proves exactly why I'm right to be defending myself against what you and others are saying and will continue to do so - firstly, you claimed:

Quote:
It really is "good enough" now.
..so you're saying I was nitpicking but then:

Quote:
Many have tried to fix this audio and the result is always the same: video with noticeable audio deficiencies.
The thing is, I very clearly asked for the deficiencies not to be noticeable from the start. Realistic or not, that was the job, that was exactly what I asked for and exactly what I put my money up for. As such, I don't need, care about or should have to pay for anyone's time spent on anything else. You're now openly stating that the deficiencies were and are still noticeable.

So what you've just done is show that you expected to be paid knowing that you hadn't done the job, and/or took on a job that you knew couldn't be done.
Old 16th January 2015
  #102
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
If you want me to do the same to the above (including how I emailed dariva at the time and said that we should work something out so he could still get paid, which he didn't respond to) then I can.
You didn't like that I took quotes from a bunch of different places. I thought it illustrated the impression you give people, you thought it was all incorrect, so I now thought in my previous post that perhaps I just focus on one instance then to make it clearer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
The thing is, I very clearly asked for the deficiencies not to be noticeable from the start. Realistic or not, that was the job, that was exactly what I asked for and exactly what I put my money up for. As such, I don't need, care about or should have to pay for anyone's time spent on anything else. You're now openly stating that the deficiencies were and are still noticeable.

So what you've just done is show that you expected to be paid knowing that you hadn't done the job, and/or took on a job that you knew couldn't be done.
Well here is where some of us would interject some anecdotes and wisdom from years and years of experience with trying to match ADR to production dialog. At this point I don't really think you care to listen or comprehend, but I'll say anyway just for the record:

I can't tell you how many times I've worked on ADR and gotten it to a point where it really matches quite well, but not perfectly, only to have a client still have an issue with it, spending even more time on it, whereas two minutes later in the program material two shots of production dialog sound more different from each other and less good - only to not be noticed at all!

When people (working on the project) ADR they will from that point on be aware that some dialog is 'fake' and some is production. That can never be undone. So even if it sounds fine to the engineer and the audience it'll 'sound' different to the director because the brain knows that it is different. Heck, I've even had shows where there's been enough ADR cut in with production sound that the director lost track of what was what (good, since he couldn't hear the difference) but then wanted to tweak the ADR which turned out to be production sound - with no real difference, just a different performance from the talent because it came from a different take/shot - and where whatever caught their ear was suddenly fine as soon as they understood it wasn't ADR but production sound. Obviously it's hard to fix performance under a deadline, but it's nevertheless a good example that the 'ear' can be 'fooled' quite easily, and that there's not only "demo love" but "demo hate".

And just for the record: I'm absolutely NOT saying that we shouldn't strive for perfection, but there's a reality outside of the studio, and in that reality people need to work and get paid so they can pay their bills. That's probably why I've heard way more egregious ADR and dialog editing in some 'big' TV shows that are scripted, with audiences in the millions, compared to the little lifestyle show in which we agonized over ADR for far too long, relatively speaking.

So my point here is a) that you may never get what you want because you know it's ADR and there's therefore a chance you'll always find it "noticeable". If this is the case then it's entirely unrealistic and unfair to ask engineers to work on something that will never be good enough for reasons that have nothing to do with audio itself, and b) that you'll always have an 'out' here. If you can't or don't want to pay, then you have an 'out' by simply saying that it's still noticeable to you. We can't argue with that of course, because it's entirely subjective.
Old 16th January 2015
  #103
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
You didn't like that I took quotes from a bunch of different places. I thought it illustrated the impression you give people, you thought it was all incorrect, so I now thought in my previous post that perhaps I just focus on one instance then to make it clearer.
I'm perfectly fine with you taking quotes from a bunch of different places. I'm not perfectly fine that you wrote a list of things you'd claimed I'd done and got it all wrong then instead of admitting it, just sulked about it. I think that's pretty reasonable, so liking doesn't really come into it. Can you tell me whether or not you're still saying that what you said was accurate, please? It's not really right of you to say that I'm not interested in listening or comprehending, when you miscomprehended the situation, and now won't listen to me trying to pin you down on it.

Quote:
Well here is where some of us would interject some anecdotes and wisdom from years and years of experience..

<snip a lot of where you've said that as the director I'll never be happy or unbiased>

..you have an 'out' by simply saying that it's still noticeable to you. We can't argue with that of course, because it's entirely subjective.
Oh, I know that's possible. That's why I did focus tests to counter it and they all noticed it too. Except now, one of the people you were trying to support in saying I'm unreasonable has said that it still has issues too, and always would.

So as much as I would ordinarily respect your advice and experience, it more feels like you're just trying to exercise some authority over me with it now since, to your surprise, everything I've said has actually held up.
Old 17th January 2015
  #104
Deleted 7f9cade
Guest
Can we lock this thread now please?

This thread is saturated with negative energy. It appears as if the OP just sits in wait like a cat about to pounce at EVERY response to this thread. His only contribution to this tread and site is to defend himself with ruthless (and unfounded) self indignation.

This has been the case for almost FOUR MONTHS.

He states that he is not an audio professional nor a film professional. It appears that he only visits gearslutz to make trouble in this particular thread.

Please close this thread mods and make it disappear. I think that is the healthiest thing for everyone involved.

Thank you
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Old 17th January 2015
  #105
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JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio View Post
Please close this thread mods and make it disappear. I think that is the healthiest thing for everyone involved.

Thank you
OR

We could start posting more gifs

Old 17th January 2015
  #106
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio View Post
It appears as if the OP just sits in wait like a cat about to pounce at EVERY response to this thread. His only contribution to this tread and site is to defend himself with ruthless (and unfounded) self indignation.

It appears that he only visits gearslutz to make trouble in this particular thread.
Quote:
This thread is saturated with negative energy.
Irony much?

If you want me to stop responding to the unfounded sh*t I'm being given, you just have to stop giving me unfounded sh*t to respond to. I actually just get an email notification every time sometimes does that, but then you know that anyway.

Your version just sounds sexier, doesn't it?
Old 18th January 2015
  #107
Deleted 7f9cade
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
Irony much?

If you want me to stop responding to the unfounded sh*t I'm being given, you just have to stop giving me unfounded sh*t to respond to. I actually just get an email notification every time sometimes does that, but then you know that anyway.

Your version just sounds sexier, doesn't it?
Only about an hour or so before you arrive to grace us with a response, just like I predicted. : )

You get an email notification, but that doesn't force you to come here and act like a child, you do that all by yourself and of your own choice. Im sick of seeing this thread in the post forum. I wasn't even involved in the thread and i'm sick of it.

If you are getting emails about posts go to the settings tab under the USER CP button on the left of the top tool bar. You can change your email notification preferences there so you will not get an email every time someone comments.

Or,,,,, per your words, since you are neither an audio nor film professional you could just delete your account. I don't have a 69 mustang therefore I don't post on 69 mustang owners forums. Even if I did post on a mustang forum with out owning one I wouldn't behave the way you are.

To conclude, Despite what I said, I believe you will not take either of these steps to remove yourself from this thread. I believe you will continuing to respond and defend yourself when zero people here really knows who you are. I believe you actually enjoy coming here and acting like a child and hacking people off.

This is a professional discussion forum. Posters here have worked on some of the biggest movies and television shows that exist. Your behavior and presence is just detracting from this site.

Ive said my piece, I won't contribute to this again.
MODS PLEASE LOCK THIS.

Last edited by Deleted 7f9cade; 18th January 2015 at 12:06 AM..
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Old 18th January 2015
  #108
Lives for gear
 

I'll second that motion- this appears to have just been a bad situation for everyone involved, and although valuable lessons can be learned from reading the thread, I don't see what good can come of leaving it open.
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Old 18th January 2015
  #109
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 7f9cade View Post
Only about an hour or so before you arrive to grace us with a response, just like I predicted. : )
He said, responding within an hour.. Again, irony much?

And predicting that people will respond on forums doesn't win you any prizes.

So: Thirded. I'd be more than happy if this thread was locked. It'd leave me alone from it and stop the bitter minority that inhabit here from taking out their frustrations.
Old 19th January 2015
  #110
I know thread was already locked but....

Can I second the request to just get it out there? most people aren't going to notice poor audio, especially over youtube or whatever. Many professionals are never completely happy with what they've done.

It's ALWAYS a learning curve. Be proud of what you've achieved. You've made a film - my first mixes weren't perfect by a long stretch either.
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