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Interesting read on piracy and the non-decline of the music biz...
Old 5th October 2011
  #1
Interesting read on piracy and the non-decline of the music biz...

You guys would know better than I about the assumptions, numbers and facts herein, but I found it entertaining nonetheless. Not yet sure whether I agree or disagree with it, so don't shoot the messenger, I simply present it for your consideration...!

Pop Didn't Eat Itself: Why Piracy Didn't Destroy the Music Industry
Old 5th October 2011
  #2
80425
Guest
I was just about to post this and found your thread. Definitely spot on
Old 5th October 2011
  #3
"entertaining" is about the right response as it's complete nonsense, and it won't stop the march to better legislation like the Protect IP Act...

even the authors of that opinion piece recognize the truth of the situation:

Quote:
Don’t get us wrong, piracy is a problem in the sense that yeah, if somebody downloads a track instead of paying for it, the record companies are losing money.
not to mention that the people writing the opinion piece don't work in or understand the economics they're actually commenting on (which is typical of these types of pieces).

here's a few charts and graphs that pretty clearly show the truth...









the years correspond to excel row numbers, the graph represents 36 years of data 1973 - 2008.

Excel graphed the years as follows:

1973 is plot point "1"

1979 is plot point "7"

2008 is plot point "36"



so it looks like the "economy" and other factors are not really that big of a factor after all, looking at 36 years of data...

Add to that each decade also saw it's own added consumer competition... The 70s saw the initial release of vcrs and video cassettes as well as video game consoles and cartridges, the 80s say home video boom as vhs matured, cable tv boomed, new types of youth sports took hold, the 90s saw the introduction of dvds, home computers became household items, people started paying for internet service, and cell phones began to be common place...

And yet through each one of those decades (without rampant online piracy) sales grew steadily until p2p and broadband reach ubiquity at the turn of the century...

Then, the sales plummet.

People can choose to ignore this like they can choose to ignore a train crossing or a stop sign, but it's foolish and irrational to do so.
Old 5th October 2011
  #4
the core point of the article is that single song downloads and not piracy caused the decline...

the problem with that is, Itunes didn't launch UNTIL late 2003 so there's FOUR FULL YEARS of declining sales PRIOR to the launch of the Itunes store....

In that light, the itunes is just a transitory format also effected by piracy.
Old 5th October 2011
  #5
This article is total bullsh*t.

Quote:
Wrong. First of all, a fun little fact: that $6.3 billion figure is only album sales. Not ringtones, not licensing rights, not merchandise sales, none of that is included. Why don’t they include that? Because then you’d know they’re still making between $9 and $10 billion.
This is utter nonsense. First, those factors were not included in the figures before, adding them now is deliberately misleading. Second, those things have little or nothing to do with THE MUSIC BUSINESS - merchandizing is not the music business. Third the claim that the figure only reflects album sales is a baldfaced lie. The figure includes album and single song sales, both digital and hardcopy.

Quote:
This kind of finagling of the facts is nothing more than par for the course for the last ten years.
So who is REALLY "finagling the facts"? Hint: It's NOT the music industry.
Old 5th October 2011
  #6
You know there's nothing in that article that hasn't been said before a thousand times - it's pretty much a litany of piracy apologist's excuses.

I wonder if psalad/deepthoughts has a new job?
Old 5th October 2011
  #7
80425
Guest
Those charts aren't the full picture not to mention the boom of album sales in the 90's and it inevidble demise on a system that was corrupt anways.

Speaking of the ringtones, which i already feel is passe- they have app's on the android where you can chop up any part of a song that is on your phone and make it a ring tone- if the labels had their way then they'd make these illegal and whine about how they're losing profits on that too.
Old 5th October 2011
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami Uni View Post
Those charts aren't the full picture not to mention the boom of album sales in the 90's and it inevidble demise on a system that was corrupt anways.
No more corrupt than any other business and a hell of a lot less corrupt than most.

Wise guys like you always whine about the "corrupt music business" while you condone theft that has cost thousands of people their jobs. If you want to see "corrupt" I suggest you look in a mirror.
Old 5th October 2011
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami Uni View Post
Those charts aren't the full picture
they look pretty full to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami Uni View Post
not to mention the boom of album sales in the 90's
what about it, all it shows is that in the absence of piracy, record sales grow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami Uni View Post
and it inevidble demise on a system that was corrupt anways.
funny thing is, the "corrupt" music business has produced most of the best music ever recorded, invested in the lives of millions of artists, and created millions of jobs around them... not to mention tens if not hundreds millions of dollars donated to charitable causes...

the pirates however, simply steal, and contribute nothing...

you have a strange way of looking at the world.
Old 5th October 2011
  #10
Lives for gear
 

One interesting thing, according to statistics published by the RIAA, those numbers reflect value as determined by suggested retail price.

http://76.74.24.142/548C3F4C-6B6D-F7...5E2AB93610.pdf

Since the MSRP has indeed dropped, that could help explain why the total 'value' is dropping faster than the total 'units'. If you look at 2009 to 2010, the total value has dropped 10.9%, while the total units has only dropped 6.8%.

Not that this indicates that there is no decline, or no problem, because there obviously is.
Old 6th October 2011
  #11
I've got to admit I gave up after a couple of paragraphs.
I thik of you want to make a serious point, it helps not to frame your argument in terms of 'they had it coming'.

Personally, I'm actually not interested in the major labels, so much as I'm interested in the workers affected.
I actually see more creative people in strife, than I see those rejoicing in continued sales and heaven forbid, increased sales and financial security through apps, ringtones and digital downloads.
One of the big errors the anti-music business lobby make is focus their ire on the label system, while completely ignoring the reality for those who actually make the product and want to sell it so they can continue to make the product.

In the end, that's what annoys me about these articles. It's not that I feel they mislead, it's that they are part of a phoney war between consumers and Sony, Virgin, Universal, etc, etc....
It's a smokescreen that appeals to the masses.
I know a lot of musicians who are struggling to keep going on.
They've never relied on a major label. They heavily promote through social media, they have their own websites, the sell their music as cheaply as they can, they give away free music, they offer online demos etc......
But you can't get around the fact a good proportion of their customers will take the product without returning any money whatsoever.
No income..... no musician.
Old 6th October 2011
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami Uni View Post
Those charts aren't the full picture
No? Then please show us what isn't there.

Facts and figures, not lies and propaganda.

Hint: You'd better read the rest of the forum before answering. It would save everyone a lot of typing.
Old 6th October 2011
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
One interesting thing, according to statistics published by the RIAA, those numbers reflect value as determined by suggested retail price.

http://76.74.24.142/548C3F4C-6B6D-F7...5E2AB93610.pdf

Since the MSRP has indeed dropped, that could help explain why the total 'value' is dropping faster than the total 'units'. If you look at 2009 to 2010, the total value has dropped 10.9%, while the total units has only dropped 6.8%.

Not that this indicates that there is no decline, or no problem, because there obviously is.
Of course in the 2009-2010 time frame most of the damage had already been done.

What's really interesting in the stats from the last two years is the significant INCREASE in sales immediately after Limewire was shut down. If I recall it was around a 6.9% increase, just from shuttering that one service.
Old 6th October 2011
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
One interesting thing, according to statistics published by the RIAA, those numbers reflect value as determined by suggested retail price.

http://76.74.24.142/548C3F4C-6B6D-F7...5E2AB93610.pdf

Since the MSRP has indeed dropped, that could help explain why the total 'value' is dropping faster than the total 'units'. If you look at 2009 to 2010, the total value has dropped 10.9%, while the total units has only dropped 6.8%.

Not that this indicates that there is no decline, or no problem, because there obviously is.
But see here's the thing, the net profit per unit hasn't changed - digital distribution does not have all the overhead costs of physical distribution, like manufacturing, returns, packaging and shipping costs to name a few.

Ultimately the genius of apple was to reverse engineer the retail math so that labels made the same out of net revenue per unit from itunes as they did from physical CDs double the list price.

the problem has nothing to do with list price, and everything to do with reduced volume which is a direct result of piracy.
Old 6th October 2011
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
In the end, that's what annoys me about these articles. It's not that I feel they mislead, it's that they are part of a phoney war between consumers and Sony, Virgin, Universal, etc, etc....
It's a smokescreen that appeals to the masses.
I know a lot of musicians who are struggling to keep going on.
They've never relied on a major label. They heavily promote through social media, they have their own websites, the sell their music as cheaply as they can, they give away free music, they offer online demos etc......
But you can't get around the fact a good proportion of their customers will take the product without returning any money whatsoever.
No income..... no musician.
very well stated.
Old 6th October 2011
  #16
You know, every time I see this lying propaganda claiming the decline of the music industry doesn't exist it reminds me of the historical revisionists who claim that the holocaust never happened and that men never walked on the moon.
Old 7th October 2011
  #18
The piracy debate mirrors quite closely the climate change debate.
Fact is, there is never 100% evidential proof in life.
It's notable to me the beliefs of ordinary people coincide with their financial needs.
Do they want to pay more for carbon? No.
Do they want to end free music, whatever they want and whenever? No.
Old 9th October 2011
  #19
Gear Head
 

It is funny for me to read about piracy. Just wondering if any of you think about ADVERTISING ?

I'm in contact with numerous Djs and artists, living in Miami for the past 20 years, home of the winter music conference (WMC).

How good is it to keep an album in your closet? Sometimes "sharing" over the internet just promote the next one!

Sure, you may lost some royalty.... but, when did you get some? and if so, just "beep" your creation, or cut the end....

You all know how the system work; creation, pool, media, Dj, Radio, Tv.... then stores, Itunes and money!

So, think again, and look around. how many of you sends production to record pool for free? or the Dj of your favorite radio station?


"Piracy" do you really think Justin Bieber care about it? He is too busy to work on studio to make the sound.... heh

Internet is a great promotional tool !!! internet is YouTube, Facebook, P2P, Chats, and networks.....


This not only apply to music but also software, you can get the version X when the version X2 get out !
Old 9th October 2011
  #20
NOne of which really has anything to do with music consumers consuming music without paying for it.
Sure, the internet is a great promotional tool.
Did we get free McDonalds after tv advertising was invented?
Old 9th October 2011
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrickmmiami View Post
It is funny for me to read about piracy. Just wondering if any of you think about ADVERTISING ?

I'm in contact with numerous Djs and artists, living in Miami for the past 20 years, home of the winter music conference (WMC).

How good is it to keep an album in your closet? Sometimes "sharing" over the internet just promote the next one!
Giving away your work for free for "promotion" or "exposure" are the biggest scams in the entertainment industry. You give away this one to "promote" the next one. Then you give away that to "promote" the one after that. And so on and so on.

There's a word for people who do that. They're called "amateurs". And nobody pays much attention to them. Why should they? They don't value their own work so why should anybody else?

Quote:
Sure, you may lost some royalty.... but, when did you get some? and if so, just "beep" your creation, or cut the end....
If you give it away to the public you never get any money. Why should they pay for something that doesn't cost anything?

Why should they value something that you don't value yourself?

Quote:
You all know how the system work; creation, pool, media, Dj, Radio, Tv.... then stores, Itunes and money!

So, think again, and look around. how many of you sends production to record pool for free? or the Dj of your favorite radio station?
Sending out promo copies to professional industry promotional outlets isn't the same thing as having your product available to the public for free. And in case you weren't aware of it, it is illegal for those promo copies to be sold or given away without specific written permission. I'm told that some companies are now watermarking promo copies sent to DJs so if a DJ gives it away it can be traced and the DJ cut from further promo.

Quote:
"Piracy" do you really think Justin Bieber care about it? He is too busy to work on studio to make the sound.... heh
Of course he does. But you know who cares more? Indie acts that don't have any income because it's all stolen. Smaller acts are hurt much worse by piracy than the big stars.

Quote:
Internet is a great promotional tool !!! internet is YouTube, Facebook, P2P, Chats, and networks.....
The internet is a terrible promotional tool unless you have a serious, highly paid promotional team that can push your stuff to the top of the public's perception. Everything else sinks in the morass of dreck that floods the internet. It was MUCH easier for acts to self-promote when there was still a regional print music press. But you're not old enough to remember that, are you?

And P2P is not a promotional tool at all.

Quote:
This not only apply to music but also software, you can get the version X when the version X2 get out !
Chris, I believe that's your cue?
Old 10th October 2011
  #22
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrickmmiami View Post
It is funny for me to read about piracy. Just wondering if any of you think about ADVERTISING ?
...
How good is it to keep an album in your closet? Sometimes "sharing" over the internet just promote the next one!

Sure, you may lost some royalty.... but, when did you get some? and if so, just "beep" your creation, or cut the end....
If it's your choice to give away your stuff for free, that's your choice. That choice ends, though.. when you start giving away my stuff.

"just to promote the next one"
the next one that is taken and/or given away for free?
Usually one would use revenues from the previous so that there COULD be a 'next one'.
There's plenty... MORE than plenty legal outlets to audition new music. There's absolutely Zero excuse to steal. Only pirates trying to rationalize their theft will use the "i'm just auditioning" excuse.
Old 12th October 2011
  #23
Lives for gear
 
tvsky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Giving away your work for free for "promotion" or "exposure" are the biggest scams in the entertainment industry. You give away this one to "promote" the next one. Then you give away that to "promote" the one after that. And so on and so on.

There's a word for people who do that. They're called "amateurs". And nobody pays much attention to them. Why should they? They don't value their own work so why should anybody else?
thats funny because all I see these days are "professionals" giving away their work as promotion . On youtube , websites , embedded in "news" stories about what said professional is wearing to some particular award show. All for free.

I guess if they don't value their work why should anybody else?
Old 12th October 2011
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvsky View Post
thats funny because all I see these days are "professionals" giving away their work as promotion . On youtube , websites , embedded in "news" stories about what said professional is wearing to some particular award show. All for free.

I guess if they don't value their work why should anybody else?
really how many free albums is Jay-Z giving way? Rhianna? is the new wilco album free? the new radiohead? coldplay? adelle?

tell me how much of this stuff is legally free, right now:
Apple - iTunes - Browse the top album downloads

hmmmm....
Old 12th October 2011
  #25
+1.
I had to laugh.
I'm seeing a few artists, giving away selected music.
Only one artist I enjoy is giving anything away free. All the other artists I like I'm listening to because I bought the record.
Old 12th October 2011
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvsky View Post

I guess if they don't value their work......
The truth is they do.
Old 12th October 2011
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrickmmiami View Post
It is funny for me to read about piracy. Just wondering if any of you think about ADVERTISING ?
I think artists and labels PAY for ADVERTISING to PROMOTE their music...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrickmmiami View Post
I'm in contact with numerous Djs and artists, living in Miami for the past 20 years, home of the winter music conference (WMC).

How good is it to keep an album in your closet? Sometimes "sharing" over the internet just promote the next one!
unlikely... if you've convinced yourself of the above, your a hobbyist and not a professional, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrickmmiami View Post
Sure, you may lost some royalty.... but, when did you get some? and if so, just "beep" your creation, or cut the end....

You all know how the system work; creation, pool, media, Dj, Radio, Tv.... then stores, Itunes and money!
ah... how about I get paid for my work, and then I can CHOSE where I reinvest my money to promote my career... how about that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrickmmiami View Post
So, think again, and look around. how many of you sends production to record pool for free? or the Dj of your favorite radio station?
when the pirate bay generates as many sales as radio airplay, call me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrickmmiami View Post
"Piracy" do you really think Justin Bieber care about it? He is too busy to work on studio to make the sound.... heh
his lawyers and his label do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrickmmiami View Post
Internet is a great promotional tool !!! internet is YouTube, Facebook, P2P, Chats, and networks.....
we really haven't seen that to be true, if so the unsigned bands on reverbnation would be charting here, but they're not:
Apple - iTunes - Browse the top album downloads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrickmmiami View Post
This not only apply to music but also software, you can get the version X when the version X2 get out !
you are grossly misinformed on these issues.
Old 12th October 2011
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvsky View Post
thats funny because all I see these days are "professionals" giving away their work as promotion . On youtube , websites , embedded in "news" stories about what said professional is wearing to some particular award show. All for free.

I guess if they don't value their work why should anybody else?
Stop playing with semantics.

Promotional use is not "giving away your work for free". No more than having it played on the radio. In the case of Youtube and the news shows the use is in fact paid*. On websites some artists do give away one or two songs from a new album as a "teaser", but they never give away the entire album or the songs being promoted as hits.

No professional gives all their stuff away. A couple of utopian acts did attempt "pay what you like" promotions, but ended them when it became obvious that in those circumstances what most people like to pay is nothing. The offers were withdrawn and have not been repeated, and for good reason.

You know very well what my point is - playing with words just makes you look like a high school kid.


*- Youtube doesn't pay a hell of a lot and if you're not a name act you may have trouble getting it but they do pay. An increasing number of artists on Youtube have their own channel or a channel sponsored by their label and you can bet those people are getting paid.

Some indies are as well. I understand that Pomplamoose has made a fair amount off YT plays and they aren't on any label. __________________
Old 12th October 2011
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrickmmiami View Post
It is funny for me to read about piracy. Just wondering if any of you think about ADVERTISING ?
Giving your work away is not promoting it.

Giving your work away is sabotaging your own career.

I have a stack of free CDs that I've never listened to.

In fact the only free CDs that I ever do listen to are those that artists that I know personally have given me and which they are SELLING to other people for money.

Most other people I know are the same way.
Old 12th October 2011
  #30
Lives for gear
 
tvsky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Stop playing with semantics.

You know very well what my point is - playing with words just makes you look like a high school kid.
I do and I am not . If you give away all your content to me totally free , whether you get paid a pittance or not to do it is of no concern to me the consumer . I got it free , whenever and wherever I want it with no restrictions.

The desire to pay for the same content that was just given away for free is now greatly reduced.

Artists are giving away their entire discographies on youtube to consumers for free , getting 10 thousands of a cent in payment and you really think that is not having an effect on sales?

We just gave away all the content for free!!!!!!!!

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