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Why Game Software Publishers Don’t Fear Piracy = why the music biz fails. Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 5th September 2011
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackaleks View Post
it's only in the console world where you have to get DLC from official sources, you can still get pirate versions of content and unlocks.
ah but you're missing the major point. There ARE pirate versions out there - but nowhere near as prevalent as downloading a CD from a torrent. Or even emailing an Itunes none DRM file!!

ALL modern video games now look to connect to the parent company - there are so many extra features and bolt ons.... this is only going to become more and more common. Whilst video games DO indeed suffer some piracy it isn't as wide spread as music. It has nothing to do with standards or content - it is entirely to do with how easy it is to just darn download it.

As for "it's only in the console world" - the console world is 90% of the revenues of video games. When was the last time a PC game sold 9 million units? The PC platform for games is such a small sector of the market as to be largely ignored by all marketeers except those targetting hard core gamers. Hard core gamers don't make the biz worth $60billion dollars !!

Social media games are big on numbers - but small on revenue.

Finally - you're actually making my point! I wasn't saying there IS a solution for the music industry within these grounds. I was saying "if only"... the problem is the very nature of what music is makes this a redundant feature. Music piracy (and it's only one part of what hurt the industry - actually video games is another!) cannot be fought by technology without strong legislation. Games don't need such strong legislation as the future of games is being connected to you service provider (EA or Ubi etc etc).
Old 5th September 2011
  #62
I think the extra features with games actually enrich the activity and enjoyment of the game.
The truth about enhanced content with music is that people just didn't want it.
Or at least not enough of them.
Sometimes you just love one pop hit.
I'm not going to pay for extra content like backstage interviews and t-shirts when I just happen to really like one song.
Old 5th September 2011
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Finally - you're actually making my point! I wasn't saying there IS a solution for the music industry within these grounds.
my bad, i thought you were talking about some kind of DLC/linked content for music downloads combatting piracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Music piracy (and it's only one part of what hurt the industry - actually video games is another!)
i was having a conversation with a couple of mates about the games we wanted to buy when all the big November releases come up, we were budgeting the best part of £200-250; that's enough money to stop me buying anything else so i'll end up listening to Soundcloud for a few more months instead of buying CDs. i guess that's the same argument pirates are going to use...
Old 5th September 2011
  #64
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Totally. That's where people are now - they have so many options. The industry isn't in total collapse (as far as sales go) but it is getting a major downsize and MOST of it is to do with people having more options.
Old 5th September 2011
  #65
without the "option" of illegally free without consequence, I think the numbers would be very, very different.

That's the only "option" that is really making a difference. I've heard every other argument for the last 30 years, and up until 1999 sales grew steadily for the three decades prior to the turn of the century.

the only thing that is truly new, is illegally free without consequence and as easy to access as a google search.

this is quiet simply a legislative problem that has gone unchecked to the benefit of big tech for well over a decade.
Old 5th September 2011
  #66
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Music piracy ... it's only one part of what hurt the industry - actually video games is another!
I don't believe that for a minute.

There have always been "competing" forms of entertainment - including video games from the mid '80s onward (If I only had all the quarters I pumped into arcade games) (and before that there was pinball), but none of that ever effected music sales. Sales of recorded music BOOMED through all that. What killed recorded music sales was one thing - piracy. It shows in the sales figures - when Napster made online music piracy a mass phenomenon was the exact point in time when music sales started to tank. The drop in sales exactly tracks the growth in piracy. When something - like the Limewire case - happens that causes a decrease in piracy sales show an immediate increase.

This "competing entertainment" excuse is hogwash. Before video games we had movies* (including drive-ins - remember drive-ins?)), pinball, pool**, bowling, miniature golf, Skating rinks (roller and ice), local amusement parks*** and small carnivals, professional sports, etc, etc, etc, all of which "competed" for the entertainment dollar And if anything competed more effectively because music was at least 3 to 4 times more expensive (in adjusted dollars) back then.

Recorded music co-existed with all of this and thrived.

People just don't remember.

* - People went to see a LOT more movies back in the '50s, '60s, and '70s. In the '50s and '60s especially people would often go to several movies a week. There were neighborhood movie theaters all over in cities and every suburb or town of any reasonable size had at least one drive-in, often several, which comprised the primary leisure activity of most teenager and young adults who were old enough to drive.

** - every small town used to have it's pool hall and its pinball arcade - cities had scads of them. Now pool halls are a rarity even in cities and pinball/videogame arcades are pretty much extinct except in tourist areas like boardwalks and San Francisco's Fisherman's Wharf.

*** - Most areas had a small local amusement park that featured Ferris wheels, a small roller coaster, a carousel, a "tunnel of love"/"tunnel of horrors", bumpercars, and various other games and carny type attractions like shooting galleries and ball/ring/horseshoe pitching. Admission was a couple of bucks and most rides cost a quarter or so. These were open at least during the summer on a daily basis and were often open year round (weather permitting) on weekends. Now the only remaining amusement parks in most places are things like Disney World that are essentially vacation destinations, not general recreation facilities.
Old 5th September 2011
  #67
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Totally. That's where people are now - they have so many options. The industry isn't in total collapse (as far as sales go) but it is getting a major downsize and MOST of it is to do with people having more options.
No. As I pointed out above, people have ALWAYS had more options, but they have not affected music because music does not actually compete with those "options", it co-exists alongside. If anything, people had MORE options in the past.

There is only one real option that affects music sales - the option to steal musical content without paying for it. That compets directly with music sales.

The reality of the situation is that people are now actually consuming FAR MORE personal music than they did in the past, not less. They're just not paying for it because they don't have to. If you stop enforcing the law against shoplifting see how long the retail industry lasts before a major economic problem develops. It's the exact same thing.

I'm really surprised a a person who is normally as astute as yourself does not recognize this.

The whole "competing options" thing is a piracy apologist excuse.
Old 5th September 2011
  #68
To continue - If you look at the other entertainment options I elucidated in my previous post you'll find that the other entertainment options of the past actually competed and conflicted MORE with the consumption of music than video games, not less. This is because the majority of those forms of entertainment were not home based and were difficult or impossible to do accompanied by personal music. OTOH videogames (which have in fact competed with and largely supplanted those other entertainment forms) are played primarily at home and many gamers listen to their own musical selections while playing at least part of the time.

Video games (and whatever other "new options" you might care to name) do not compete with music, they compete with movies, television,and sports and have pretty much destroyed the commercial participatory sports, arcade, and small amusement park industries and have put quite a dent in the movie industry which has only been offset by raising prices.

At the same time in between home listening and the new mobile devices, consumption of personal music is greater than ever, possibly by as much as an order of magnitude. People are using MORE music, not less. But they're stealing most of it.

My personal estimate is that only 10% of the music being consumed in the current market is actually paid for.
Old 5th September 2011
  #69
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Nah they haven't John.... had more options that is.

When you and I were young men there was the cinema, records and perhaps - once a month - a club. Then we got VHS.

Now we have; affordable holidays, people go to gym, people buy brand new cars with all the hobby activities that brings (customisation etc etc), A culture of going out to restaurant (I go four times a week!), DVDs + Blu ray, More movies than ever, a massive games industry (bigger than movies and music added together), pay TV channels, far more bands - and music is more disposable, lots of cool sports - that eat money....etc etc

Basically there are many many more accessible things fighting for your spare quids and dollars. That has been the biggest changer - the last ten years has seen myriad opportunities.... but opportunities is choice - and choice means competition.... I mean - c'mon - just for a whim I often catch a flight to somewhere in Europe just for a weekend. In real terms it's so much cheaper to do many things than ever before - but the equation doesn't balance....

Add to that - music isn't as rebellious or sexy as it used to be, we've all heard it all before, more and more product chasing diminishing dollars ALONG with piracy and the distractions the internet brings and "poof"... lower margins and less money in sales....

Oh - and whether people are USING more music has no bearing on it. We can only look at the market. If piracy disappeared tomorrow you wouldn't find a great upsurge in margins or sales.... it'd be marginal. And being astute is why I'm aware of piracy being a dunker - but only part of the problem. My company is far more than just the sector I run - it's a research resource for the ents industry as a whole.... and right now - it's App based games and the emerging FB games (it'll be short lived).

Your examples are well founded - but music has now become one of the past horses to bet on!! I make money from music - always have done, always will do. But HOW I make money has changed enormously!!
Old 5th September 2011
  #70
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackaleks View Post
i was having a conversation with a couple of mates about the games we wanted to buy when all the big November releases come up, we were budgeting the best part of £200-250;
HMmm... That's less than I've spent on CDs in the past month... Of course that's not an average month for me but just sayin'.....

Quote:
that's enough money to stop me buying anything else so i'll end up listening to Soundcloud for a few more months instead of buying CDs. i guess that's the same argument pirates are going to use...
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Totally. That's where people are now - they have so many options. The industry isn't in total collapse (as far as sales go) but it is getting a major downsize and MOST of it is to do with people having more options.
But that's the same way it ALWAYS has been - you've always had to choose what you spend your money on. This hasn't changed. The only thing that's changed is the perception that somehow you have the "right" to take music instead of paying for it.

Back in the '50s, '60s, and '70s the choice might have been between buying albums and putting money into your car or spending it at the pool hall or going to the movies or any of a zillion other things.

If anything, the competition for your entertainment dollar has actually DECREASED, as many of those old forms of entertainment aren't around much anymore.

God, cars - it used to be that a major pastime for a large number of young American males* was hotrodding and customizing their cars. They used to spend phenomenal amounts of money on this. Nowadays it's illegal in most places to do most of those alterations yourself - you have to pay through the nose to a licensed builder if you want a real hot rod - and guys content themselves with playing automotive video games for a fraction of the cost.

Which is why only guys like Jay Leno can afford real hotrods anymore.......

*- probably roughly equivalent to the number of serious gamers today....
Old 5th September 2011
  #71
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Sure - but the costing was different. Music was the backbone to many of that scene. IT's now an also ran!! Music is part of everything - and there are soooo many releases every week. Market segmentation in music alone has changed things. Even GS itself - look how many people are on here MAKING music. There is a "professional" scene in the UK involving 100s or thousands of people (so they label themselves)!

In short - it's just a different world!! Aspirations are different.....
Old 5th September 2011
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcoman
Now we have; affordable holidays, people go to gym, people buy brand new cars with all the hobby activities that brings (customisation etc etc), A culture of going out to restaurant (I go four times a week!), DVDs + Blu ray, More movies than ever, a massive games industry (bigger than movies and music added together), pay TV channels, far more bands - and music is more disposable, lots of cool sports - that eat money....etc etc

Basically there are many many more accessible things fighting for your spare quids and dollars. That has been the biggest changer - the last ten years has seen myriad opportunities.... but opportunities is choice - and choice means competition.... I mean - c'mon - just for a whim I often catch a flight to somewhere in Europe just for a weekend. In real terms it's so much cheaper to do many things than ever before - but the equation doesn't balance....
Right, but... people don't have to "Choose" when it comes to music. THey just take it, and choose between the other things.
If they actually HAD to pay for music to obtain it, there'd be a balancing act between what they did this week/month to the next. (ie, i want the new album, and i want that new game.. but can only afford one.. some will buy the album, some will buy the game <<< ONLY IN THIS senario is games competing with music. It's not competing with music if they go to TPB or similar...)

I totally disagree with you on:
"If piracy disappeared tomorrow you wouldn't find a great upsurge in margins or sales.... "
This is just not based on the reality when A (single!) big pirate site is taken down, music sales go up considerably immediately afterwards. If all pirate sites were taken down, and/or there was percieved consequences to stealing... you bet your a** music sales would rise expodentially.
Old 5th September 2011
  #73
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They went up 6% from memory. A nice amount - but the diverse and huge amount of low margin products make that figure a poop hut!!

The thing is - with so much more product and MORe people wanting in on the scene, even if we still had 900million CD sales a year the margins would be down.
Old 5th September 2011
  #74
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Nah they haven't John.... had more options that is.

When you and I were young men there was the cinema, records and perhaps - once a month - a club. Then we got VHS.

Now we have; affordable holidays, people go to gym, people buy brand new cars with all the hobby activities that brings (customisation etc etc), A culture of going out to restaurant (I go four times a week!), DVDs + Blu ray, More movies than ever, a massive games industry (bigger than movies and music added together), pay TV channels, far more bands - and music is more disposable, lots of cool sports - that eat money....etc etc
You are kidding, aren't you? Cars? People don't hotrod cars like they used to - it's illegal in most places. In California you can't even replace an engine with a different size and type from what came in the car anymore - unless you have a custom builder's license. About all you can do is put on fancy rims and paint and maybe a cheesy fake spoiler. You can't even do real custom bodywork now that cars are mostly not steel.

More movies than ever? Sorry, no. When I was in school kids often went to movies several times a week. (I didn't get to go, my parents were a real pain - but all my friends did.) There were many times more movie theaters than there are now. The Hollywood B movie industry hardly exists anymore. Back then it was booming - many, many more releases every month for both top features and B movies.

When was the last time you saw a functioning drive-in movie? The only drive-ins around here have been converted to flea markets - they don't even have the speakers anymore, all been stolen and I doubt the projectors work - if they're even still there.

There's no more bowling, pool, or miniature golf. Now a major city might support one or two bowling alleys and maybe one or two real poolhalls - that's the number an average small town had in the '60s. Miniature golf? When was the last time you saw a miniature golf course? That wasn't on an old movie or TV show?

Restaurants? There have ALWAYS been restaurants. I haven't really cooked for myself (or had a girlfriend cook for me) since the early '70s.

Quote:
Basically there are many many more accessible things fighting for your spare quids and dollars. That has been the biggest changer - the last ten years has seen myriad opportunities.... but opportunities is choice - and choice means competition.... I mean - c'mon - just for a whim I often catch a flight to somewhere in Europe just for a weekend. In real terms it's so much cheaper to do many things than ever before - but the equation doesn't balance....
Again, are you serious? As various people around here are fond of pointing out, a song costs about the same as a candy bar, lasts a lot longer, and isn't bad for your teeth.

As far as vacations are concerned, I dunno - my parents kept a house in Maine that we spent every summer in. We didn't fly though - we drove 3,300 miles each way from Oklahoma - but still, maintaining 2 houses on my dad's professor's salary......

Quote:
Add to that - music isn't as rebellious or sexy as it used to be, we've all heard it all before, more and more product chasing diminishing dollars ALONG with piracy and the distractions the internet brings and "poof"... lower margins and less money in sales....
And the primary reason that music isn't as rebellious, sexy, or interesting is that piracy has eliminated the development budget for any but the most mainstream, stereotyped acts. That's a consequence of piracy, not a separate factor in the demise ofr the industry. That's also exacerbated (at least in the US) by the consolidation of media into corporate monoliths that no longer promote anything that doesn't fit their focus group model.

Quote:
Oh - and whether people are USING more music has no bearing on it. We can only look at the market. If piracy disappeared tomorrow you wouldn't find a great upsurge in margins or sales.... it'd be marginal.
And that's where you're absolutely, utterly dead wrong. There would, in fact be an immediate and continuing upsurge in sales. That was demonstrated by the noticeable increase when Limewire went down.

Music is a basic human need on a very deep rooted, instinctive level. Anthropologists are coming to believe that the need for music actually predates civilization. If people don't have the option to steal it for free they WILL buy it.

Quote:
And being astute is why I'm aware of piracy being a dunker - but only part of the problem. My company is far more than just the sector I run - it's a research resource for the ents industry as a whole.... and right now - it's App based games and the emerging FB games (it'll be short lived).

Your examples are well founded - but music has now become one of the past horses to bet on!! I make money from music - always have done, always will do. But HOW I make money has changed enormously!!
Well, I'm glad you do - but the problem is how MUSICIANS will make money from music. If you happen to be a musician it's not a question of "what horse to bet on", it's a question of survival.

Or you can always get a job tending bar.
Old 5th September 2011
  #75
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Well we'll just have to partially disagree then !!
Old 5th September 2011
  #76
here we go again...

every other contributory factor existed prior to piracy, including but not limited competition from rival consumer products, the economy, etc. And taking that all into account sales climbed steadily for three decades until the onset of massive online digital piracy...




the years correspond to excel row numbers, the graph represents 36 years of data 1973 - 2008.

Excel graphed the years as follows:

1973 is plot point "1"

1979 is plot point "7"

2008 is plot point "36"



so it looks like the "economy" really isn't that big of a factor after all, looking at 36 years of data...

add to that each decade also saw it's own added consumer competition... the 70s saw the initial release of VCRs and Video Cassettes as well as video game consoles and cartridges, the 80s saw home video boom as VHS matured, cable tv boomed, new types of youth sports took hold, the 90s saw the introduction of DVDs, home computers became household items, people started paying for internet service, and cell phones began to be common place...

and yet through each one of those decades (without rampant online piracy) sales grew steadily until P2P and broadband reach ubiquity at the turn of the century...

then, the sales plummet - it's just that simple.
Old 5th September 2011
  #77
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
Right, but... people don't have to "Choose" when it comes to music. THey just take it, and choose between the other things.
If they actually HAD to pay for music to obtain it, there'd be a balancing act between what they did this week/month to the next. (ie, i want the new album, and i want that new game.. but can only afford one.. some will buy the album, some will buy the game <<< ONLY IN THIS senario is games competing with music. It's not competing with music if they go to TPB or similar...)

I totally disagree with you on:
"If piracy disappeared tomorrow you wouldn't find a great upsurge in margins or sales.... "
This is just not based on the reality when A (single!) big pirate site is taken down, music sales go up considerably immediately afterwards. If all pirate sites were taken down, and/or there was percieved consequences to stealing... you bet your a** music sales would rise expodentially.
excellent post.
Old 5th September 2011
  #78
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Not saying piracy hasn't had it's effect!!! Just saying - the reasons the music industry is SO fekked (and I mean the sales apart because the rest of it is pretty healthy) is because it's had more to deal with than just piracy. It grew as disposable income grew - and now disposable income gets spread further.....

John made some excellent points about previous about previous competitors of music - but things were cheap "back in the day" The cinema these days is more than pocket money yet STILL people go. Or buy DVDs or etc etc and muchos muchos.....

Heck - even my internet ISP costs!!

As for custom car, John , I didn't mean hot rods etc - but a lot of kids spend their money on all manner of "car goods" in the UK.


Here's the thing though: as a business owner making turnover from music (which is what I is!!) one has to look beyond the common perception. I look at the dollar going into other areas and have found various ways of bringing those dollars back into my business. I haven't fought piracy, I didn't instigate any protective outlay on our software products as the economics don't work. I DID get some of the inflight ents budgets from cheap flights, I DID invest in PA hire to car festivals (like the various VW fests in the UK), I AM investing in musical releases that are disinterested in digital media (market music to 50 year old women for example!!) which is bringing enough of a return on the two artists involved to create waves and therefore land them more syncs.....

You have to THINK in this biz. If you wanna make money selling music? Think about using the value of music to make money instead (the distinction is subtle)...... I've always hated piracy, and I've ranted on here for years an years about how to fight it and its effects..... then I looked at, and understood, the bigger picture.

The graph above is very illuminating - it's one I've been aware of a long time. It shows, quite rightly, the biggest sales were at the end of the 90s. However - the biggest MARGINS are over ten year earlier. Label margins went DOWN with growth in sales towards the end of the 90s. The point? The point is the issue is never a simple as single data sets. It's a complex issue with myriad problems and outcomes.....
Old 5th September 2011
  #79
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Sure - but the costing was different. Music was the backbone to many of that scene. IT's now an also ran!! Music is part of everything - and there are soooo many releases every week. Market segmentation in music alone has changed things. Even GS itself - look how many people are on here MAKING music. There is a "professional" scene in the UK involving 100s or thousands of people (so they label themselves)!
You're right about one thing - there is a glut of mediocre to horrible music flooding the internet - which makes the internet a godawful promotional medium for serious commercial music.

There is relatively little good music being released and a fair amount of that fails to get the attention it deserves - it's a serious problem.

One of the main factors in this is that piracy has reduced the involvement of the larger labels in any music that deviates from their formulas for what produces quick sales or any music that requires a substantial upfront investment in development. It used to be that the labels were gatekeepers of quality to some extent. Now not only are they not performing the gatekeeping function, the gates are gone and the fence has been knocked flat.

This situation must change. We need a new generation of labels that can be looked to as arbiters of quality. And this can only happen if piracy is brought under control.

The problem is not that there are hordes of people making music - there have ALWAYS been hordes of people making music, most of it not noteworthy. The problem is that now these people have the same access to the public that serious professionals do.

Quote:
In short - it's just a different world!! Aspirations are different.....
Nope. Same world. And aspirations have not changed at all. Everybody still wants to be a star, nobody aspires to flip hamburgers.

What has happened is the the engines for promotion and distribution have been knocked skiddlywompus and that piracy has more than decimated the label system. (Decimation properly refers to killing one out of ten. Piracy has killed 9 out of 10 sales.)

If you look at the actual figures there is ONLY ONE factor that correlates directly to the decline in music sales - the increase in internet music piracy.
Old 5th September 2011
  #80
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
They went up 6% from memory. A nice amount - but the diverse and huge amount of low margin products make that figure a poop hut!!
6% immediate result - when there were still a myriad of alternate pirate sources available.

Given that most music pirates simply switched sources that's actually pretty huge.

Quote:
The thing is - with so much more product and MORe people wanting in on the scene, even if we still had 900million CD sales a year the margins would be down.
Not true - because the vast, vast majority of that crap isn't worth buying.

However we do need to develop new promotional avenues to replace the now dysfunctional broadcast radio and the virtually extinct music press.
Old 5th September 2011
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
If you look at the actual figures there is ONLY ONE factor that correlates directly to the decline in music sales - the increase in internet music piracy.
That correlate? As a mathematician I could show you several actually!!

I'm not arguing against what you say - you are right in piracies terrible effect.... but it's just bigger than that as well! Even Simon Cowell has had a negative effect.... reality TV where everybody feels entitled to fames.... the world has changed!!

Making music? Not until the home recording revolution did so many make so much superficially professional music! Man you should see the number of CDs we get for potential syncs!!! Literally hundreds a week!!


...as for new promotional avenues.... haha!! That's ma boys!!
Old 5th September 2011
  #82
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Here's the thing though: as a business owner making turnover from music (which is what I is!!) one has to look beyond the common perception. I look at the dollar going into other areas and have found various ways of bringing those dollars back into my business. I haven't fought piracy, I didn't instigate any protective outlay on our software products as the economics don't work. I DID get some of the inflight ents budgets from cheap flights, I DID invest in PA hire to car festivals (like the various VW fests in the UK), I AM investing in musical releases that are disinterested in digital media (market music to 50 year old women for example!!) which is bringing enough of a return on the two artists involved to create waves and therefore land them more syncs.....

You have to THINK in this biz. If you wanna make money selling music? Think about using the value of music to make money instead (the distinction is subtle)...... I've always hated piracy, and I've ranted on here for years an years about how to fight it and its effects..... then I looked at, and understood, the bigger picture.
I'm not a haberdasher. I don't sell clothing.

I used to run a PA company but you know something? That INTERFERED SERIOUSLY with my actual music career - if I'd stuck to playing music instead of doing tech I probably would have a bunch of records to my name* instead of trying to jumpstart a performing career in today's climate at the age of 61. (Yes, I'm crazy.)

Quote:
The graph above is very illuminating - it's one I've been aware of a long time. It shows, quite rightly, the biggest sales were at the end of the 90s. However - the biggest MARGINS are over ten year earlier. Label margins went DOWN with growth in sales towards the end of the 90s. The point? The point is the issue is never a simple as single data sets. It's a complex issue with myriad problems and outcomes.....
The primary reason that margins went down is that retail prices of music failed to keep place with the rate of inflation - probably because music was doing so well that nobody really noticed.


* - I feel confident in saying this because two of the guys I'm playing with - who I've known for around 30 years - do in fact have a bunch of records to their names.
Old 5th September 2011
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post

Not true - because the vast, vast majority of that crap isn't worth buying.
aye - but it still costs to make and , more importantly, market!!
Old 5th September 2011
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I'm not a haberdasher. I don't sell clothing.
.
Sure. Neither am I. The only thing I actually do is produce and mix score and records. I use this loss leader (well - it's not a loss leader, but it is the highest profile but smallest earning part of what we do!!) as my way into meetings to get my core company at the forefront of it's many entrepreneurial areas! I don't rent PAs myself, for example - but one of my companies does!


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
The primary reason that margins went down is that retail prices of music failed to keep place with the rate of inflation - probably because music was doing so well that nobody really noticed.
Totally. And remember what people used to say about CD prices!! People are cocks!!
Old 5th September 2011
  #85
Gotta go to a Labor Day barbecue now - be back later tonight......
Old 5th September 2011
  #86
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have fun!!
Old 6th September 2011
  #87
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Nevermind my ugly english Its my 3rd language.

There's only 2 ultimate solutions:

1. Advertising. Nothing to be earnt here. Cause the market for ads, placed around music, is very limited.

2. Taxation.
You have to get money from:

- Buyers of playing devices by imposing a tax on every sold playing device.
or
- People in general by imposing a "mediacontent-tax" on every household. Actually this is the way germany funds its public television and radio system. Taxes are also the way drama theater or classical music is fundet, though not directly (cities subsidize every sold ticket, sound engineers working in operas ore public TV-stations are "civil servants")

But, I feel like the whole idea of taxes is not too popular. Espacially in the US.

Also there are a few problems with the whole "tax-idea":

- The music industry effectively prevents the fair distribution of such taxes. Such a system would make "labels", as we know, obsolete. The "label" of the future then, is the company, that hosts the server and manages transnational cash flow.

- There is no political will to address our misery. Not to many musicians among them voters.

- The music industry has no lobby, because it's members (the people not the companys) don't have a political representation. No solidarity, No Rock-Star-Union, that can call for a strike

Of course you could make the Computer-OS the chokepoint for collecting money, if there was no linux.


And mind the history.
Making money with music by monopolizing its technical reproduction, is just a short episode in music history. It's not some "natural state". It's actually usury by exploiting a technological failure, that is overcome with the invention of the internet, the mp3-codec, the AD-DA-converter, the ASIO-Soundcard and the ASIO/VST-DAW.



What is the coclusion?
Nothing will happen!
No Steam for music, no DRM, no "better service"...
Just nothing.

Now go, starve ... or get a job.

Well, as long as you don't live in Europe. You won't starve here, because the social system will save you. And then they make you get a job So it's the same really.
Old 6th September 2011
  #88
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

yup
Old 6th September 2011
  #89
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
No, you don't.
The Supreme Court do. Did you bother to read their honours' opinions in the referenced case, or are yours somehow superior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
There was recently a case where a person copied a movie and put it out on Bittorrent and was convicted in federal court.
How does this disprove what I said? Making available for downloading, particularly when it can be shown that the number of downloads were significant, is well over the quantitative thresholds described in the aforesaid opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Furthermore there were a number of cases in the late 80's/early '90s where federal agents raided pirate BBS systems and obtained felony convictions against the operators and in some cases brought charges against people acting as co-sysops. Penalties against the operators involved jail time and heavy fines.
Same situation as the Bittorrent case above. Similar distinctions are made in other areas. Consider the difference in penalties and enforcement between "possession" and "possession for supply".

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Furthermore, the Dowling case which you cite does not deal with online copyright infringement, but actually with a case of physical bootlegging and it not applicable to the issue at hand. It involves an alleged physical "interstate transport of stolen merchandise."
Correct, and I said as much. The point is not the case itself, it's that the judges also went into considerable detail on the general topics of what is considered to be copyright infringement and how bad it has to be before it can can be prosecuted under Federal law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
As far as doing it "willfully", please explain how you could pirate something and NOT do it willfully?
You believed (and could show proof leading you to this conclusion) that the work was "legally available". For example, a spoofed record company website offering music from one or more of their artists as a "limited time promotional" offer. You know it happens a lot, for all sorts of products and services.

Pssst... wanna buy sony-music.com?
Old 6th September 2011
  #90
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

@ Don,
the problem with that argument is, well, the current state of piracy.
If we were talking about people making mix tapes or emailing their buddy a few songs.. this section of the forum wouldn't exist.

The scale of most of the piracy sites are staggering. You can't argue that there's no 'intent' on ANY of them, and they're making money hand-over-fist.. not that that even matters. They don't even try to appear 'legitimate'. Their intentions are known by everyone, hidden by none.

If there were sites that sprung up and had a dozen downloaders then dissapeared, maybe your argument would make sense. But that's not what we're talking about, is it?
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