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Should the Industry Bi*ch & Mo*n Less and Instead be More Pro-Active?
Old 29th July 2011
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyc View Post
Trying something that didn't work and then giving up hardly seems like a much of an effort. Thomas Edison would be appalled.
It's physically impossible.

I've gone over this innumerable times, please read the forum before posting you pie-in-the-sky, pipe dream, Sci-fi nonsolutions. It's just wasting our time with nonsense.

Incidentally, Thomas Edison was a thief and a lousy inventor. The only thing he actually invented himself was the wax cylinder phonograph. Oh, and the idea of signing hi employees to work-for-hire contracts so he could claim their inventions (including the light bulb) as his own. Which was the genesis of the feud between him and Nicola Tesla, the greatest inventor of the Age of Electricity.

Edison was an evil man.
Old 29th July 2011
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyc View Post
I think anyone on this forum who is a serious musician/engineer is or will be impacted by piracy. So given the current climate how can profits still be effectively made? I see very few "solution" threads. And yes I am interested and looking for an effective solution.

For example: some say Google sucks and they are supporting piracy. Fine it feels good to get it off your chest. But instead why not circulate a petition, perhaps a simple website that explains why they are a problem. Circulate it to your clients and friends, eventually getting enough people to complain to google and stop using them until they listen. Will it work? I don't know but it is certainly a proactive step forward.

Example #2: Mp3s are pretty much free through piracy. Ok how do we use free as a business model? Is it possible? Can we add value to the mp3 experience that pirate sites can't?

I'm not saying there are easy solutions, I just see a disparity between complaints vs possible solutions. More of the latter would be more effective.
Please read the forum before posting stuff that we've run over so often that you can see light through it.

You think you're such a genius that you've thought of sometime we haven't discussed before?

The primary reason that some of us seem so hard line line is that we've already gone over this stuff over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over - and over.... and it gets REALLY OLD!
Old 29th July 2011
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by frawnchy View Post
If any one person had "THE SOLUTION", they'd become very, very rich. App-albums like Bjork's 'Biophilia' and Radio Soulwax's new podcast series are innovative though. Great value, very interesting ideas.
I have the solution and it's not gonna make me rich.

The solution, sadly, is enforcement. Sorry, I don't really like it either but it's the only way.

It's the only thing that's been proposed that I can't logically shoot down.

Quote:
App-albums like Bjork's 'Biophilia' and Radio Soulwax's new podcast series are innovative though.
but utterly impractical for the vast majority of artists - and if everyone started doing it the novelty would be gone and the arists would just be stuck with extra production costs on a product that wouldn't sell. What's cool and novel once is old and boring by the third time around.
Old 29th July 2011
  #34
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

When i'm not writing, recording, engaging in buisness, i like to stop for a few minutes at this and other forums to take a break.
I've written several personal letters to Congress, and keep writing them.

Guess what... i'll bet many of the people that visit this part of the forum do so as well (at the VERY least!). There's been a sea-change in the visibility of our and other creative industry in the eyes of Congress. Action is being taken, more will come.

Once piracy is down to managable levels again, you'll likely not see me or others here "bitching and moaning" about it anymore. Until that day comes, you have two choices;
1) understand where we're coming from, or state your own views
2) don't visit this part of the forum...
Old 29th July 2011
  #35
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
Once piracy is down to managable levels again, you'll likely not see me or others here "bitching and moaning" about it anymore. Until that day comes, you have two choices;
1) understand where we're coming from, or state your own views
2) don't visit this part of the forum...
Fair enough, but honestly I'd suggest people here band together and take direct action as well... you have a group of people here who obviously have passion about the issue and some time on their hands.
Old 30th July 2011
  #36
I just received this email back from Sen Dianne Feinstein a couple days ago:

Quote:
Dear Mr. Eppstein:

Thank you for your letter regarding the "Preventing Real Online Threats to Economic Creativity and Theft of Intellectual Property Act," commonly known as the "PROTECT IP Act." I appreciate knowing of your support for this legislation.

America's copyright system is an important economic engine, and I believe copyright owners should be able to prevent their works from being illegally duplicated. The protection of intellectual property is particularly important to California's thriving film, music, and high-technology industries.

I am an original cosponsor of the "PROTECT IP Act" (S. 968), which would give both copyright and trademark owners, and the U.S. Department of Justice, the authority to take action against websites dedicated to selling pirated materials. This bill would provide powerful tools to combat rogue websites, who have profited from nothing more than stealing the creative works of others. Therefore, I am pleased to let you know that, on May 26, 2011, the "PROTECT IP Act" was reported favorably out of the Senate Judiciary Committee. It is currently awaiting action before the full Senate.

Throughout my career as a United States Senator, I have supported strong intellectual property protection. For example, I was an original cosponsor of the Prioritizing Resources and Organization for Intellectual Property Act of 2008, which President George W. Bush signed into law on October 13, 2008 (Public law 110-403). This Act strengthened civil and criminal intellectual property laws, increased the resources available to federal and local law enforcement agencies to combat the theft of intellectual property, and created the Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator in the Executive Office of the President.

I will certainly be mindful of your views as the Senate considers these issues in the future. Should you have additional questions or concerns, please feel free to contact my staff in Washington, D.C. at (202) 224-3841.


Sincerely yours,

Dianne Feinstein
United States Senator
Further information about my position on issues of concern to California and the Nation are available at my website, Feinstein.senate.gov. You can also receive electronic e-mail updates by subscribing to my e-mail list. Click here to sign up. Feel free to checkout my YouTube Page.
Old 30th July 2011
  #37
Lives for gear
I think the solution is everything. Sometimes technology was too ahead of it's time. I think DRM was one of those technologies, personally.

Now with smart everything, it's much more easier to manage your license. In 1998, even 2006 it was awful.

The newton flopped. The ipad won. If the ipad came out in the climate of the newton, it would've still flopped.

Eventually if you apply enough ideas with enough force whenever you think it can be used, something will stick to the wall. At least, that's apparently the way they do business these days.

Another problem is format wars. In digital audio, we have over seven different digital formats. That's asinine.
Old 30th July 2011
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post
I think the solution is everything. Sometimes technology was too ahead of it's time. I think DRM was one of those technologies, personally.

Now with smart everything, it's much more easier to manage your license. In 1998, even 2006 it was awful.

The newton flopped. The ipad won. If the ipad came out in the climate of the newton, it would've still flopped.

Eventually if you apply enough ideas with enough force whenever you think it can be used, something will stick to the wall. At least, that's apparently the way they do business these days.

Another problem is format wars. In digital audio, we have over seven different digital formats. That's asinine.
DRM for audio is physically impossible.

I don't care what time it is, it simply won't work.

The reason is that audio is a simple two dimensional stream that must be decoded to analog in order to be useful (unless you've invented a William Gibson style means of jacking directly into the brain - in which case you're gonna be really rich!)

Once the audio signal is in analog mode it's trivial to tap it with a line out cable - or a set of clip leads on the speaker terminals - and re-encode it to an unprotected digital format for distribution.

It's so simple a chimp could almost do it. Certainly any bright 8 year old could.

So give it up. It's a Sy-Fy channel pipe dream. And while you're at it, please pass the bong over here!

(DRM works for video because it ISN'T a simple 2 dimensional stream and it's much more difficult to do an analog copy, as any old time analog tech will tell you. (yeah, worked in that as well...) It's not technically impossible but with the sync issues the average lay person can't do it.)
Old 30th July 2011
  #39
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
DRM for audio is physically impossible.

I don't care what time it is, it simply won't work.

The reason is that audio is a simple two dimensional stream that must be decoded to analog in order to be useful (unless you've invented a William Gibson style means of jacking directly into the brain - in which case you're gonna be really rich!)

Once the audio signal is in analog mode it's trivial to tap it with a line out cable - or a set of clip leads on the speaker terminals - and re-encode it to an unprotected digital format for distribution.

It's so simple a chimp could almost do it. Certainly any bright 8 year old could.

So give it up. It's a Sy-Fy channel pipe dream. And while you're at it, please pass the bong over here!

(DRM works for video because it ISN'T a simple 2 dimensional stream and it's much more difficult to do an analog copy, as any old time analog tech will tell you. (yeah, worked in that as well...) It's not technically impossible but with the sync issues the average lay person can't do it.)
95% of the human population can't figure out how to use the extended functions on their microwave ovens, let alone wire a cable correctly and in phase. Have you ever worked in tech support or any type of support?

This is actually what people have to do!

Old 30th July 2011
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post
95% of the human population can't figure out how to use the extended functions on their microwave ovens, let alone wire a cable correctly and in phase. Have you ever worked in tech support or any type of support?

This is actually what people have to do!

Cute video. Nice try for a Red Herring. Next time I prefer my herring in Sour Cream sauce.

Now, back to reality.

All it takes is ONE GUY.

And considering how many half baked "audio engineers" there are around these days......

Audio DRM is physically impossible.

Ya wanna hit of this nitrous tank?
Old 30th July 2011
  #41
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Cute video. Nice try for a Red Herring. Next time I prefer my herring in Sour Cream sauce.

Now, back to reality.

All it takes is ONE GUY.

And considering how many half baked "audio engineers" there are around these days......

Audio DRM is physically impossible.

Ya wanna hit of this nitrous tank?
Yeah, but you can be guaranteed that it would go back to like how it used to be and that ONE GUY would charge for their work on copying, even if it's a dollar a disc or a dollar per album. It would also be receded to the major artists. That's where you trap the big fish who decide to try.

Pirate Bay imploded on itself, and I know this for a fact. Sure they still got people on there, but most pirates have switched to subscription based pirating. It's getting to where it's not even worth their time, risk, or bandwidth to seed so they're turning towards profit.

Making it that much harder to copy, no matter what does nothing but protect your work from dumb people and push the pirates into breaking the highest legislated piracy laws in history. Not even the EFF can save them then.

The ones who see it and need a new "movement" have all gone to anon.
Old 30th July 2011
  #42
here's an overview of the industries history with DRM and how we got to where we are now...
How the RIAA failed the recorded music industry...
Old 30th July 2011
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
here's an overview of the industries history with DRM and how we got to where we are now...
How the RIAA failed the recorded music industry...
That article totally misses the point.

The point is that even if Apple had shared Fair Play with the rest of the industry it would not have done any good for the reasons I've already explained. In fact it would actually have been worse, because all the people who resent copy protection on their music - about 99% of the listening public - would have been driven to piracy. It would have been a friggin' disaster. Losing copy protection on downloads was probably the ONLY smart thing the industry did in the entire digital screwup.
Old 30th July 2011
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
That article totally misses the point.

The point is that even if Apple had shared Fair Play with the rest of the industry it would not have done any good for the reasons I've already explained. In fact it would actually have been worse, because all the people who resent copy protection on their music - about 99% of the listening public - would have been driven to piracy. It would have been a friggin' disaster. Losing copy protection on downloads was probably the ONLY smart thing the industry did in the entire digital screwup.
perhaps, but I'm also of the mind that as the industry evolves into 100% digital distribution, the majority of consumers are not, and were not unjustly encumbered by Fairplay which allowed:

- the same playlist to be burned 10x's
so you could make 10 CDRs of one album

- all music shared on up to 5 computers
how many people are really using more than 5 personal computers at once?

- UNLIMITED use on IPOD devices
so the every piece of music you've ever purchased can be used on any and all ipods, iphones, ipads, etc you will ever own as long as that device is registered to you

I think the Fairplay DRM was the best balance one could hope to achieve in a DRM policy. I do think it was a major mistake to not:

1) have an industry standard / licensed digital file format
2) have an industry standard DRM format

sure, some people would crack it, but so what - all that's needed for 90% of the population is a "good enough" solution... which is all we'll get from law enforcement and legislation anyway...
Old 31st July 2011
  #45
Gear Addict
 
frawnchy's Avatar
 

Should the Industry Bi*ch & Mo*n Less and Instead be More Pro-Active?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear
...all that's needed for 90% of the population is a "good enough" solution... which is all we'll get from law enforcement and legislation anyway...
Deciding what's good enough for 90% definitely isn't a great standard to carry across any medium. 10% of any population is very powerful. If you decided arbitrarily that 10% of any sub-population in any dispute shouldn't get a say, you'd be the subject of unheard-of amounts of abuse.
Old 31st July 2011
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by frawnchy View Post
Deciding what's good enough for 90% definitely isn't a great standard to carry across any medium. 10% of any population is very powerful. If you decided arbitrarily that 10% of any sub-population in any dispute shouldn't get a say, you'd be the subject of unheard-of amounts of abuse.
perhaps, but I don't know of much that's designed for 100% of the population... murder laws don't work on 100%... there's always going to be outliners, and there's generally not much you can do about them.

the idea is more about keeping honest people honest than it is about try to stop thieves... and it's been that way for a looong time...
Old 31st July 2011
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
sure, some people would crack it, but so what - all that's needed for 90% of the population is a "good enough" solution... which is all we'll get from law enforcement and legislation anyway...
You're missing my point.

The point is that it doesn't require anybody to crack it. All it needs is a line out cable and a digital recorder. Any idiot can do it, you don't need to crack the protection. It's like wearing paper armor to a gunfight - the illusion of protection but no real protection at all.

It's like the Maginot line. After WWI the French built a massive line of fortifications to prevent an invasion from Germany. They covered the entire German border with impenetrable (by land) fortifications. So when WWII came the Germans didn't bother trying to crack the line. They simply went around it and invaded through Belgium while sending the Luftwaffe over in the air.

Audi DRM is like the Maginot line - it's not protection and it's not a solution. It does, however, have the potential for being a colossal waste of effort and money.

It's better to put the effort into something that has a chance of working.
Old 31st July 2011
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
perhaps, but I don't know of much that's designed for 100% of the population...
Agreed. Life is one big compromise. To suggest otherwise is a nonsense.
Old 31st July 2011
  #49
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
perhaps, but I'm also of the mind that as the industry evolves into 100% digital distribution, the majority of consumers are not, and were not unjustly encumbered by Fairplay which allowed:

- the same playlist to be burned 10x's
so you could make 10 CDRs of one album

- all music shared on up to 5 computers
how many people are really using more than 5 personal computers at once?

- UNLIMITED use on IPOD devices
so the every piece of music you've ever purchased can be used on any and all ipods, iphones, ipads, etc you will ever own as long as that device is registered to you

I think the Fairplay DRM was the best balance one could hope to achieve in a DRM policy. I do think it was a major mistake to not:

1) have an industry standard / licensed digital file format
2) have an industry standard DRM format

sure, some people would crack it, but so what - all that's needed for 90% of the population is a "good enough" solution... which is all we'll get from law enforcement and legislation anyway...
Agreed 100%.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
You're missing my point.

The point is that it doesn't require anybody to crack it. All it needs is a line out cable and a digital recorder. Any idiot can do it, you don't need to crack the protection. It's like wearing paper armor to a gunfight - the illusion of protection but no real protection at all.

It's like the Maginot line. After WWI the French built a massive line of fortifications to prevent an invasion from Germany. They covered the entire German border with impenetrable (by land) fortifications. So when WWII came the Germans didn't bother trying to crack the line. They simply went around it and invaded through Belgium while sending the Luftwaffe over in the air.

Audi DRM is like the Maginot line - it's not protection and it's not a solution. It does, however, have the potential for being a colossal waste of effort and money.

It's better to put the effort into something that has a chance of working.
Sure. I'm just saying that you give people more credit than what they're capable of. In fact, the only reason why paid for digital media works as well as it does today is because much of the population can't even figure out how to use torrents.

It's always been reserved for the technical niche. The difference is the technical niche is growing. However, I believe that two minutes vs 80 minutes is a good trade off. Even if you were adept enough to copy that record, you would never be able to achieve the same amount of records. The time spent on non automated information gathering would destroy a great majority of the world's freetard pirates. Pirates put a huge value on FLAC files, and if you've never noticed... Places like what.cd, etc are not free they're subscription and invite only. If you are not a paid subscriber and you leech, you get your downloading privileges revoked.

People are going to pay a price for higher quality, people are going to pay a price for things that take time. Whether it's pirated or not, that's just the name of the game.

In fact, this can be proved by economic means. Apple got the success it did because it provided a "toaster" way of handling computers. In fact, the toaster theory is the first thing you learn in modern computer science. Nobody cares as long as toast comes out. Most hackers can't even be bothered to find their own exploits. It's actually something that Lanier touched on a bit watching his videos, etc. You could compare it with the masses who just search something and get a wiki link.

Once you take away the toaster, people either will not eat toast or figure out how to do it on their own. They're more likely to open a restaurant.

On the other side of the spectrum, the people that have to sell the product have to create a functioning toaster or they lose. This is why DRM lost. The infrastructure now allows it to take place. It helps that the computer industry is driving more towards services rather than giving you the reigns and giving support.
Old 31st July 2011
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
You're missing my point.

The point is that it doesn't require anybody to crack it. All it needs is a line out cable and a digital recorder. Any idiot can do it, you don't need to crack the protection. It's like wearing paper armor to a gunfight - the illusion of protection but no real protection at all.

It's like the Maginot line. After WWI the French built a massive line of fortifications to prevent an invasion from Germany. They covered the entire German border with impenetrable (by land) fortifications. So when WWII came the Germans didn't bother trying to crack the line. They simply went around it and invaded through Belgium while sending the Luftwaffe over in the air.

Audi DRM is like the Maginot line - it's not protection and it's not a solution. It does, however, have the potential for being a colossal waste of effort and money.

It's better to put the effort into something that has a chance of working.
I understand John - we just see this one a little different. I'm having success on a record right now, and somewhat unexpectedly... the reason is the demographic for the record is 35-50, and itunes #'s have exploded... mainly because that demo is gonna buy from itunes before they try any kind of piracy first, like rapidshare, megaupload or torrents.

I understand about pissing people off, I just didn't really hear a lot of complaining about Fairplay the half decade it was in existence. The industry cut off it's nose to spite it's face by trying to thwart Itunes dominance by opening Amazon as DRM Free.

The only reason the industry did that is because there was no chance of the Amazon store having any success if it required it's own DRM and Hardware players (as Microsoft found out).

Apple, with or without DRM is, was, and will be for as long as we can see the dominant market player.

Adding insult to injury is that Itunes files STILL only play natively on idevices more/less ensuring no other hardware competitors. Add to this, the coming "imatch" system which will replace your "open/compatible" MP3 with a nice clean Apple Only Compatible file of the same song...

The Trojan Horse is the icloud... Apple needs hardware dominance to maintain it's market position.

So DRM is effectively gone, but Apple is still a proprietary and closed system... it's the worse of both worlds... IMHO... you'll probably disagree... Apple get's it's protection, but the industry get's none...

Steve Jobs is a genius... evil, genius.
Old 31st July 2011
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
So DRM is effectively gone, but Apple is still a proprietary and closed system... it's the worse of both worlds... IMHO... you'll probably disagree... Apple get's it's protection, but the industry get's none...

Steve Jobs is a genius... evil, genius.
I don't own any Apple products. The only Apple thing I use is Quicktime because I can't avoid it.

I've hated Jobs ever since he screwed over Wozniak.
Old 31st July 2011
  #52
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I've hated Jobs every since he screwed over Wozniak.
XD

I wish we were still in Microsoft days personally.

In a perfect world, Paul Allen would've got the company and Steve Ballmer would've got the Seahawks.
Old 31st July 2011
  #53
For me, if it wasn't Jobs it would be someone else.
Not a fan of Jobs myself, but I assume most of the Apple design team and board are right behind him 100%.
Old 31st July 2011
  #54
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
For me, if it wasn't Jobs it would be someone else.
Not a fan of Jobs myself, but I assume most of the Apple design team and board are right behind him 100%.
I don't know, it's pretty common knowledge that Jobs micromanages a lot. I'm sure he has a few like him in the company by now, but whatever.

I personally think a lot of tech companies are misguided. I'm not really sure where to go from here, but it's the one thing that drives me to go study computer science.

In many of the different views, my BS-O-Meter goes way up. However, I understand the reasons.

If you are interested in tech and economics I suggest you read The Lights in the Tunnel. It's probably the most interesting, non motivational view, that touches on all of these different movements but actually applies some economics, data, and math rather than intellectual craziness or intellectual bias...
Old 31st July 2011
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post
I don't know, it's pretty common knowledge that Jobs micromanages a lot. I'm sure he has a few like him in the company by now, but whatever.

I personally think a lot of tech companies are misguided. I'm not really sure where to go from here, but it's the one thing that drives me to go study computer science.

In many of the different views, my BS-O-Meter goes way up. However, I understand the reasons.

If you are interested in tech and economics I suggest you read The Lights in the Tunnel. It's probably the most interesting, non motivational view, that touches on all of these different movements but actually applies some economics, data, and math rather than intellectual craziness or intellectual bias...
thanks for the book recommend, I'll check out! you need to read "you are not a gadget" as well...
Old 31st July 2011
  #56
I probably need to read both.
Will I slit my wrists afterwards?
Old 31st July 2011
  #57
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
thanks for the book recommend, I'll check out! you need to read "you are not a gadget" as well...
Yeah, it's worth the read and it's on my list. I've watched all of the videos and got the gist of the material, I just hope that it goes more in depth to the problem, rather than a biased solution. You have to be careful applying history to modern problems.

Especially to chrisso, that book debunks quite a bit of the east asian outsourcing you seem to be fond of addressing. It's essentially unsustainable.

In fact, the common ground may be both of these scenarios, Lanier's and Ford's.
Old 31st July 2011
  #58
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'd ask a slightly different question.....
What motivates people who aren't impacted by piracy and typically have a nice lifestyle through non music based means to come on this forum and complain about those discussing an important issue?
Do you go on athletic forums and complain bitterly that members are discussing the doping issue?

*Like*
Old 31st July 2011
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
So DRM is effectively gone, but Apple is still a proprietary and closed system... it's the worse of both worlds... IMHO... you'll probably disagree... Apple get's it's protection, but the industry get's none...

Steve Jobs is a genius... evil, genius.
I don't own any Apple products. The only Apple thing I use is Quicktime because I can't avoid it.

I've hated Jobs ever since he screwed over Wozniak.
Old 31st July 2011
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I probably need to read both.
Will I slit my wrists afterwards?
you are not a gadget is a must read, lucid and insightful from a person with not only an insiders view, but also a forward thinking perspective to the long view.
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