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Old 28th July 2011
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
If you actually pay attention to what the hacktivists say you'll understand that they are, in fact the radical arm of the same anti-copyright movement that includes open source. It's much the same relationship as that between The Weathermen and SDS in the late '60s/early '70s.
You could even say that they're near direct descendants... If you look at the line of history and how it's members intertwine, you find that many from the movements of that era went into computers after they graduated, the war ended, and the "trip" (both metaphorical and in reality) was finally over. The Bay Area was a huge hot spot for all of that stuff. Berkeley (which at different times had both Wozniak and Bill Joy) and Stanford was (and still is) one of the largest/heavily funded colleges in CS dating back to the very same time period.

[joke]
I don't even think Richard Stallman realized the boat left. Case in point:



[/joke]

Heck, even Tim Leary was involved and was a spokesperson in the post 70s information revolution when it was first taking off. It's basically the one thing that made hippies a whole lot of cash. I personally like researching these different groups on my spare time, TONS of good historical perspective and the world hasn't been the same since. Especially computer science history from that time has lots of good information. Large computers to mini computers to fairchild/intel, good stuff.

(Even in music, members of DEVO went to school at Kent and Mark Mothersbaugh's brother was right in the protests when a bunch of them got shot, then apparently got disillusioned with the whole thing which might explain THEIR subversive weirdness)

Anonymous and The Weathermen is almost the same philosophy with the same tactics if you were to make a check sheet of their views and style of actions, it's just digital this time. Probably got it from the same literature, there's a bunch of it out there.
Old 28th July 2011
  #152
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post
You could even say that they're near direct descendants... If you look at the line of history and how it's members intertwine, you find that many from the movements of that era went into computers after they graduated, the war ended, and the "trip" (both metaphorical and in reality) was finally over. The Bay Area was a huge hot spot for all of that stuff. Berkeley (which at different times had both Wozniak and Bill Joy) and Stanford was (and still is) one of the largest/heavily funded colleges in CS dating back to the very same time period.

[joke]
I don't even think Richard Stallman realized the boat left. Case in point:



[/joke]

Heck, even Tim Leary was involved and was a spokesperson in the post 70s information revolution when it was first taking off. It's basically the one thing that made hippies a whole lot of cash. I personally like researching these different groups on my spare time, TONS of good historical perspective and the world hasn't been the same since. Especially computer science history from that time has lots of good information. Large computers to mini computers to fairchild/intel, good stuff.

(Even in music, members of DEVO went to school at Kent and Mark Mothersbaugh's brother was right in the protests when a bunch of them got shot, then apparently got disillusioned with the whole thing which might explain THEIR subversive weirdness)

Anonymous and The Weathermen is almost the same philosophy with the same tactics if you were to make a check sheet of their views and style of actions, it's just digital this time. Probably got it from the same literature, there's a bunch of it out there.
I was a member of SDS in the mid '60s, but quit when they didn't send me my newsletter. I also knew Mark Rudd and Bernadette Dohrn during the summer of '68 in NY when they were at Columbia.

Later, in the late '70s I knew a bunch of computer/techno radicals in Silicon Valley including the infamous John Draper (Captain Crunch)......

So when I say I know about these people I'm not kidding......
Old 28th July 2011
  #153
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I was a member of SDS in the mid '60s, but quit when they didn't send me my newsletter. I also knew Mark Rudd and Bernadette Dohrn during the summer of '68 in NY when they were at Columbia.

Later, in the late '70s I knew a bunch of computer/techno radicals in Silicon Valley including the infamous John Draper (Captain Crunch)......

So when I say I know about these people I'm not kidding......
Those would've been truly interesting times to live in. :P I remember watching a documentary on Woz and Crunch (and other phreaks/hackers) at one point. Interesting documentary. It's funny that Apple flew a pirate flag long before the pirate movement took off into a different form. I laugh when people plaster pirate stickers on their macbooks. Most of them are my age, they likely don't even know the history involved.
Old 28th July 2011
  #154
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post
You could even say that they're near direct descendants... If you look at the line of history and how it's members intertwine, you find that many from the movements of that era went into computers after they graduated, the war ended, and the "trip" (both metaphorical and in reality) was finally over. The Bay Area was a huge hot spot for all of that stuff. Berkeley (which at different times had both Wozniak and Bill Joy) and Stanford was (and still is) one of the largest/heavily funded colleges in CS dating back to the very same time period.

[joke]
I don't even think Richard Stallman realized the boat left. Case in point:



[/joke]

Heck, even Tim Leary was involved and was a spokesperson in the post 70s information revolution when it was first taking off. It's basically the one thing that made hippies a whole lot of cash. I personally like researching these different groups on my spare time, TONS of good historical perspective and the world hasn't been the same since. Especially computer science history from that time has lots of good information. Large computers to mini computers to fairchild/intel, good stuff.

(Even in music, members of DEVO went to school at Kent and Mark Mothersbaugh's brother was right in the protests when a bunch of them got shot, then apparently got disillusioned with the whole thing which might explain THEIR subversive weirdness)

Anonymous and The Weathermen is almost the same philosophy with the same tactics if you were to make a check sheet of their views and style of actions, it's just digital this time. Probably got it from the same literature, there's a bunch of it out there.
awesome post! thank you.
Old 29th July 2011
  #155
Yes, very interesting.
I've run into some of this history on a very, very minor scale and from those admittedly short exposures, and from having lived thru the end of the 60's transition to the late 70's, read a bit and watched film and tv documentary.......
the big impression I'm left with is the ideology didn't work.
Almost all the 60's radicals (barring perhaps a few leading lights), dropped back in to mainstream society and are now leading quite standard, conservative lives.
Some of the disciples of these movements now feel they were mentally and physically abused, some claim they were brainwashed.
So it was a very interesting time, with an explosion of radical ideas, but IMO at least, hasn't resulted in a great deal of positive change.
Old 29th July 2011
  #156
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yes, very interesting.
I've run into some of this history on a very, very minor scale and from those admittedly short exposures, and from having lived thru the end of the 60's transition to the late 70's, read a bit and watched film and tv documentary.......
the big impression I'm left with is the ideology didn't work.
Almost all the 60's radicals (barring perhaps a few leading lights), dropped back in to mainstream society and are now leading quite standard, conservative lives.
Some of the disciples of these movements now feel they were mentally and physically abused, some claim they were brainwashed.
So it was a very interesting time, with an explosion of radical ideas, but IMO at least, hasn't resulted in a great deal of positive change.
Yes, the ideology didn't work.

That's why I'm here.
Old 29th July 2011
  #157
That's what I thought.

Interesting tangent.
Old 29th July 2011
  #158
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Yes, the ideology didn't work.

That's why I'm here.
So you have ties to the weathermen but you're preaching to people about upholding standard moral traditions...? Irony? heh Just kidding... I think you are an appreciated source of knowledge here, as long as you can keep it in control and not let your tainted past experiences present a bias that overshadows the true information source you could exhibit.
Old 29th July 2011
  #159
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Yes, the ideology didn't work.

That's why I'm here.
it's interesting - I was on the fringe of the 90s cyberpunk culture in LA that sprouted from the pre-web internet days and the Mondo2000 crowd from SF when Leary was still the ring leader.

trippy times, I was into reading 2600 and the counter culture 'zine movement which predated what I guess is now blog culture.

a lot of big ideas, and I don't think anyone from then really saw how the web was going to turn into what it has become, but I do remember that many got disillusioned with the likes of Yahoo early on...

I kept saying, "this only works through advertising, there's really no other model" and they kept saying "no, you're wrong we just haven't gotten there yet"... we'll now the models are mainly advertising, ecommerce (mail order) and services (travel booking)...
Old 29th July 2011
  #160
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
it's interesting - I was on the fringe of the 90s cyberpunk culture in LA that sprouted from the pre-web internet days and the Mondo2000 crowd from SF when Leary was still the ring leader.

trippy times, I was into reading 2600 and the counter culture 'zine movement which predated what I guess is now blog culture.

a lot of big ideas, and I don't think anyone from then really saw how the web was going to turn into what it has become, but I do remember that many got disillusioned with the likes of Yahoo early on...

I kept saying, "this only works through advertising, there's really no other model" and they kept saying "no, you're wrong we just haven't gotten there yet"... we'll now the models are mainly advertising, ecommerce (mail order) and services (travel booking)...
I still read 2600. I like to keep informed.

And the pirates are all making money from advertising and donations from political organizations.
Old 29th July 2011
  #161
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
So you have ties to the weathermen but you're preaching to people about upholding standard moral traditions...? Irony?
And Tom Hayden is now a mainstream politician.......
Old 29th July 2011
  #162
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
it's interesting - I was on the fringe of the 90s cyberpunk culture in LA that sprouted from the pre-web internet days and the Mondo2000 crowd from SF when Leary was still the ring leader.
I went to a couple of the cyberarts international conferences in the 90's... we could have crossed paths there. I was a mondo2000 subscriber for a long time. I would say I was on the fringe as well. I was trying to get the radio station I was working on to let me do an integrated broadcast that would feature simultaneous BBS presence and cool industrial music, combined with interviews. I guess the idea was ahead of its time.
Old 29th July 2011
  #163
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepthoughts View Post
I went to a couple of the cyberarts international conferences in the 90's... we could have crossed paths there. I was a mondo2000 subscriber for a long time. I would say I was on the fringe as well. I was trying to get the radio station I was working on to let me do an integrated broadcast that would feature simultaneous BBS presence and cool industrial music, combined with interviews. I guess the idea was ahead of its time.
I dunno about that - I worked a couple of shows that did pretty much the same thing you're talking about.
Old 29th July 2011
  #164
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepthoughts View Post
I went to a couple of the cyberarts international conferences in the 90's... we could have crossed paths there. I was a mondo2000 subscriber for a long time. I would say I was on the fringe as well. I was trying to get the radio station I was working on to let me do an integrated broadcast that would feature simultaneous BBS presence and cool industrial music, combined with interviews. I guess the idea was ahead of its time.
I dunno about that - I worked a couple of shows that did pretty much the same thing you're talking about. The big problem was that the bandwidth wasn't really there to do the internet broadcast side of the equation.
Old 29th July 2011
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
And Tom Hayden is now a mainstream politician.......
I've never heard of the guy... how mainstream can he be...?
Old 29th July 2011
  #166
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I've never heard of the guy... how mainstream can he be...?
Tom Hayden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your ignorance isn't my problem.

Don't they teach history in the schools these days?
Old 29th July 2011
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Tom Hayden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your ignorance isn't my problem.

Don't they teach history in the schools these days?
I was only joking... but no, they certainly don't teach extensive activism history in schools, at least the ones I went to.
Old 29th July 2011
  #168
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I was only joking... but no, they certainly don't teach extensive activism history in schools, at least the ones I went to.
They don't teach you about The Chicago 7? That's a pretty big omission - damn revisionists......
Old 30th July 2011
  #169
Lives for gear
/me laughs

I don't know what else to say.... Maybe perhaps to deepthoughts...

You know things are bad when multiple people who have done lots of 2600 reading and used to regularly frequent those circles (no matter which generation) SAY things are bad and it didn't work.... :P

I'm not like most people, I think the singularity can happen. BUT we shouldn't prepare for it by enforcing those ideals prior, we should just let it happen because it won't just by the nature of how it's supposed to work any other way. The lack of creative incentive will actually kill it. I'm not saying post capitalist societies are a bad thing, but we better have the technology out first. It's even better that we're aware, so we don't eff it up royally when it does come.

But we're effing up the chance by not letting the transition take place and coming up with all of this political theory... That's just my view anyway.

If you let it go and ride it's course, capitalism will eat itself but we WON'T suffer the consequences. I think Kurzweil was right on the data but I don't get all this cultish junk. Lanier is right as well, I personally think it should be somewhere in the middle. I think we should let machines become part of our creative arm, much like him and his flute; rather than something to end all and be all of everything. I think everyone should have the power to create, learn, etc.

But at the same time, I notice that most humans nowadays have at least two cores. The newest computers are as fast as the whole room of computers it took to render toy story. Most people's home computers would've been a physicists, mathematicians, or scientists DREAM even fifteen years ago. Game consoles cracking hard encryption? Really? 15 years ago you were lucky to get 30 polygons on a screen. 30 years ago you were lucky to get 8 colors and a sound chip.... We all have the ability to research and do cool stuff but everyone just goes on facebook or whatever. So I can kind of get some of the frustration with that end as well. The experiment kind of had the reverse effect of what it was supposed to accomplish.

And if we get to Kurzweil's world then we shouldn't be anywhere near our world either. Anyone who wants to leave should be able to just leave. We need to learn how to be resourceful in space and in our energy gathering skills. We're more capable of going to mars now than we were when we went to the moon. I think this should be the goal of Kurzweil and his cult, because we don't need to waste this planet's environment or enforce population control.

I just don't really get it, maybe *I* missed the boat somewhere. So much crap. Meh.
Old 30th July 2011
  #170
The problem is for me.....
You're asking one small group (people who create content) to be the guinea pigs of your new economic system. It's not even that you are asking you're foisting it on us by taking our work anyway.
This is where it always comes back to punk for me.....
They didn't like the establishment, they didn't like the music, the concert venues, or the music labels.
So they created their own music, their own venues and their own labels.
No one was hurt in the process, except the establishment had to wake up from it's post orgy slumber.
What's happening now is like.....
"Hey you creative guys.... it would be really cool if you let us enjoy your work for free".
It's not a movement, it's a dictatorship (in effect) based on wanting something for nothing.
Old 30th July 2011
  #171
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The problem is for me.....
You're asking one small group (people who create content) to be the guinea pigs of your new economic system. It's not even that you are asking you're foisting it on us by taking our work anyway.
This is where it always comes back to punk for me.....
They didn't like the establishment, they didn't like the music, the concert venues, or the music labels.
So they created their own music, their own venues and their own labels.
No one was hurt in the process, except the establishment had to wake up from it's post orgy slumber.
What's happening now is like.....
"Hey you creative guys.... it would be really cool if you let us enjoy your work for free".
It's not a movement, it's a dictatorship (in effect) based on wanting something for nothing.
Yeah. I understand that...

I can explain all of that in a few sentences and this is their biggest flaw that they don't see:

Until you actually have material stored as information, you will always have to depend on a monetary type system for innovation. You can't innovate the singularity if you have no incentive to do so. The singularity, in a sense, is both the problem and the solution. You can't have both at once.

Computers gave us much more accurate ways of doing statistics, graphs, etc. We're predicting something that is going to happen in due course. Our current mistake is that we're putting too much emphasis on social preparation for something that isn't even around yet. The analogy would be like trying to ride a bike at two years old with no training wheels while reading a book on general theory of relativity at the same time.

In such a society where materials were dumbed down to ones and zeroes, people COULD create content just for the sake of creating it. Money would be obsolete, at the very least more symbolic. In 2011, it's not. In 1999 we were technologically worse off. Now we're lost in a world of maybes, what-ifs, facebook, and nobody wants to pay for anything because everyone sits wishing for the end of the world, the end of their lives, or the end of capitalism.
Old 30th July 2011
  #172
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The problem is for me.....
You're asking one small group (people who create content) to be the guinea pigs of your new economic system. It's not even that you are asking you're foisting it on us by taking our work anyway.
This is where it always comes back to punk for me.....
They didn't like the establishment, they didn't like the music, the concert venues, or the music labels.
So they created their own music, their own venues and their own labels.
No one was hurt in the process, except the establishment had to wake up from it's post orgy slumber.
What's happening now is like.....
"Hey you creative guys.... it would be really cool if you let us enjoy your work for free".
It's not a movement, it's a dictatorship (in effect) based on wanting something for nothing.
The punk movement was all about being creative.

The pirate movement doesn't create, they just take.

Exact opposites.
Old 30th July 2011
  #173
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post
Yeah. I understand that...

I can explain all of that in a few sentences and this is their biggest flaw that they don't see:

Until you actually have material stored as information, you will always have to depend on a monetary type system for innovation. You can't innovate the singularity if you have no incentive to do so. The singularity, in a sense, is both the problem and the solution. You can't have both at once.

Computers gave us much more accurate ways of doing statistics, graphs, etc. We're predicting something that is going to happen in due course. Our current mistake is that we're putting too much emphasis on social preparation for something that isn't even around yet. The analogy would be like trying to ride a bike at two years old with no training wheels while reading a book on general theory of relativity at the same time.

In such a society where materials were dumbed down to ones and zeroes, people COULD create content just for the sake of creating it. Money would be obsolete, at the very least more symbolic. In 2011, it's not. In 1999 we were technologically worse off. Now we're lost in a world of maybes, what-ifs, facebook, and nobody wants to pay for anything because everyone sits wishing for the end of the world, the end of their lives, or the end of capitalism.
You seriously need to read Lanier's book. He totally debunks all that - explains clearly why it doesn't work, why it dehumanizes people, and why the "singularity" is a crock - essentially a new religious cult and nothing more.
Old 30th July 2011
  #174
I agree with John here.
In the end, content that humans actually value is created by brain cells, fueled by blood supplies. It was so in the middle ages, and nothing has changed now.
Your confusing the technology of delivery with the actual art of imagination.
If you don't reward people who have imagination, they'll imagine less - that's just a historical reality.
At the moment, one very effective way of rewarding them is offering them a secure lifestyle through monetary gain.
Old 30th July 2011
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
You seriously need to read Lanier's book. He totally debunks all that - explains clearly why it doesn't work, why it dehumanizes people, and why the "singularity" is a crock - essentially a new religious cult and nothing more.
I understand, but at this point for me it's two sides of extremes. It was more in reflection of my above post about the fact I do believe in Kurzweil's data but I don't believe in the occultism involved.

I merely think that it (the "singularity") is a progression in time. I can back that up with historical evidence, and even some of the points of Lanier's arguments to embrace humanity more. (Bill Joy, in my opinion did a much better debunking of the singularity over 10 yrs ago, if there was anyone to debunk it)

Anyways, we did not have this stuff in the beginning. Lanier would say that we should go back to that and stay there, but I differ with his ideas because they hamper innovation by keeping things the same.

Kurzweil is too optimistic to the point that he's nuts. I could say a lot more about that, but in a nutshell that's the exact case. However, his DATA is correct. We have seen an exponential curve in technology and knowledge. It's fact, you can prove it with data spanning from primitive devices like Lanier's binary flute and the abacus all the way to modern day computers.

On one hand you got one view with good points that is too narrow and another view with good points that wants to be a god some day and live on the wire or whatever crazy crap Kurzweil really wants to do.

Now, going back to the progression in time now that I've explained clearly my stance with Kurzweil, Lanier, and the other people who have said similar things:

We did not always have this technology. We barely know what to do with all of this data, it's not even been around that long. Surely you would need more than a century. 2060 is a good realistic time. (if we last that long)

And that's my point. If you go back into history from all of the different revolutions, mindsets, ideas, etc that have come and gone it's always been a natural progression and never forced. We look at the data and not only prepare but try to live society in that way and THAT is what does not work.

It's impossible for it to work, just like it's impossible for you to skate board Marty Mcfly style before you know how to skateboard.

Computers were the progression that hit hard. And people understand the capability. Lanier understands it too but thinks it's bad *simply* because of how it's applied to this current climate. Myself I'm not worried about this current climate that much, I'm worried about the likelihood of a set of things being here five, ten, twenty years from now.

We have to GET there first. That means working with what we have, under this capitalist society, under these countries, under this money, and what we have NOW. We can't just "wait for it to come" because the graphs say so.

And I make myself clear: We currently do not live in a singularity world so we should NOT treat it like a singularity world. We should treat it like a normal world and let the singularity take place in due process. Not from force, not from these stupid political/social organizations, but like every other change has taken place. You dream to make the world a better place and you contribute and get paid until you don't have to worry about the cost of living, then you really don't give a &*$& do you?

Another analogy to the same analogy I stated before is: you don't go around installing lamp posts with light sockets if you have no light bulb....

I can tell you for a fact that each year the singularity nuts try to push for *social change* it brings it further away from the singularity. It's all backwards and screwed up, Kurzweil should've just put out the data and said nothing else.
Old 30th July 2011
  #176
Explain 'singularity'?
Old 30th July 2011
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Explain 'singularity'?
The singularity to me, is the point in time where we realize our true potential.

Where we use our technology to make things we don't have, and to use them as tools as an extension to our creativity.

Essentially the point in time where anything becomes as cheap as the rocks we stand on.

A point in time where you look at a mountain of sand and you see gold.

In other words, it's the final stage of the transition between the industrial to the post industrial revolution.

In this current climate, as far as copyright, etc John, you, rack, etc got the right idea. The people that argue against it, can site the data of the "future is now" all they want but IT"S NOT HERE YET! That's simply my point and virtually my stance on it now.

If it changes it changes, if it doesn't it doesn't. However, there is a high chance that innovation will take place.

Cotton gin, bell labs, military funded computers, they all had their place in the time line. I like to think of historical time lines like futuristic time lines. I think time and dates, moods, and atmosphere are very important, and can make or break a society. Futurists like Kurzweil and his cult try to make the future now even if it won't work in the current climate.

That's the big difference.
Old 30th July 2011
  #178
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post

Essentially the point in time where anything becomes as cheap as the rocks we stand on.

A point in time where you look at a mountain of sand and you see gold.
That doesn't really make any sense to me.
I understand a post industrial age, but that would mean things had a true cost, rather than being artificially cheap due to factory lines and abused workers.
Old 30th July 2011
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
That doesn't really make any sense to me.
I understand a post industrial age, but that would mean things had a true cost, rather than being artificially cheap due to factory lines and abused workers.
Even factory lines and abused workers are not a sustainable scenario. Eventually there will be nowhere else to outsource. Businesses will eventually sell out to any technology that will replace anything that costs money, or they will charge the user to keep the old stuff around. The recent netflix thing is the most recent example.

I can't say yay or nay to any of this or factory lines and abused workers but it happens. It's all a part of the natural process. If they get sick of it, they'll strike.

And it's already happened in many cases. Korean guitar makers striked a few years ago, the companies got all ticked and moved to laos or something. Eventually that will turn the same.

You can even go down to a macro economic scale with supply, demand, etc. Energy dependence, increased value in currency due to industrialization, etc.

Like I said in my first post, there's so many factors to the problem. It's a compounded problem, with not a simple solution. At least one that is not draconian with forcing people to use dumb terminals or whatever to make sure whatever they run has to be paid for every time they run it otherwise their machine won't run at all. Of course this will fix the problem.

But is it just as WRONG of an idea as forcing people to make everything free?

We have never seen this type of world before, I don't think I trust ANYONE with all the answers. We don't know. Even myself.

Nobody has a clue when it comes down to it. This is where I can agree with that johnny guy in that other thread. If you don't innovate, you will have no advancement.

The law will do nothing, it will only make the hackers better programmers. You only have to look at Napster using a centralized server to multiple servers coming out on the scene after it's demise to find that out. They haven't even brought out encryption that much yet.

Then you got the cyber warriors. It's a friggin mess. The whole thing, everything.
Old 30th July 2011
  #180
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post
.....
You still haven't read Lanier's book, have you?

READ THE FRIGGIN' BOOK!
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