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So now that Piracy is unstoppable... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 2nd January 2011
  #1
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So now that Piracy is unstoppable...

What are you gonna do?

Kids aren't gonna stop downloading music illegally.

Successful musician aren't gonna do PSA's and risk looking unhip(like Metallica post Napster) especially after "respected" bands like Radiohead and NIN have practically been given the Noble Peace Prize for releasing "free" recordings.

Even if the music industry and the government worked together to crack down on piracy there's always gonna be some computer nerd out there that would risk the jail time if they could be the one to discover away around it.

Now what?
Old 2nd January 2011
  #2
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depends on who you are..do you have a catalog that has been making money and now it does not due to piracy?

or are you like me ..first objective was to get some product out that was actually worth stealing... well I think I have made it that far

now how do I get folks interested enough to go to itunes etc at all.

things have changed and are still changing rapidly AFAIC. I do believe there is a percentage of folks that will pay... I could say that piracy is the issue for me (me, not the biz in general) but my real issue is promotion and demographics... told you more than I know
Old 2nd January 2011
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdss View Post
What are you gonna do?

Kids aren't gonna stop downloading music illegally.

Successful musician aren't gonna do PSA's and risk looking unhip(like Metallica post Napster) especially after "respected" bands like Radiohead and NIN have practically been given the Noble Peace Prize for releasing "free" recordings.

Even if the music industry and the government worked together to crack down on piracy there's always gonna be some computer nerd out there that would risk the jail time if they could be the one to discover away around it.

Now what?
don't drink the cool aid. the wild west wasnt' wild forever and neither will the internet be...

anything that adds consequences is a game changer.

I'm a little skeptical about the news out of France, but it looks like the measures being taken there might be working, HADOPI & Vouchers.

The French Government was also said to be issuing credit vouches to citizens to purchase music from legal download sites in an effort to migrate them there.

If it is in fact working there, it might be looked at more seriously by other countries. I'm glad the French still have respect for the creative class. When you think about to contributions to society by the creatives, it's really a much larger crime for the general population to take a piss on them by stealing their work.

French Biz Continues To Grow In 2010 | Billboard.biz

HADOPI law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

France Starts Reporting ‘Millions’ of File-Sharers | TorrentFreak

Legal downloads boosted in France by La Carte Musique | finetunes
Old 2nd January 2011
  #4
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdss View Post
What are you gonna do?

Kids aren't gonna stop downloading music illegally.

Successful musician aren't gonna do PSA's and risk looking unhip(like Metallica post Napster) especially after "respected" bands like Radiohead and NIN have practically been given the Noble Peace Prize for releasing "free" recordings.

Even if the music industry and the government worked together to crack down on piracy there's always gonna be some computer nerd out there that would risk the jail time if they could be the one to discover away around it.

Now what?
Well, on your last paragraph I think it's very easy to make piracy less convenient. It will never dissapear obviously, but I think illegal P2P filesharing could easily be pushed below the mainstream. The whole issue is convenience really, it's just easy to steal music. If you made it not so easy for your average person, so that they couldn't just search for a torrent and select out of 10 google pages of torrent sites or just go to a "mediafire" or "rapidshare". If you did that but then provided a very convenient way to purchase digital music, I think more people would purchase.

It's the instant gratification generation afterall that tends to download, atleast in the west.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #5
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbrain View Post
I do believe there is a percentage of folks that will pay... I could say that piracy is the issue for me (me, not the biz in general) but my real issue is promotion and demographics... told you more than I know
Ya, I agree... I'm in the same boat.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #6
Here for the gear
 

In the comment section everyone sounds like a bunch of crybabies.

Several people declaring everyone in france should stop using the internet, as well as some guy declaring he is going to start distributing free copies of DVDs and CDs to everyone he knows to spite the government.

"You mean I can't have free media! Outrageous, boycott!"
Old 2nd January 2011
  #7
Gear Addict
 

Piracy is not as prevalent as you think. When a person downloads a crack, chances are they are loaded with viruses. And they usually are.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcousticsWizard View Post
Piracy is not as prevalent as you think. When a person downloads a crack, chances are they are loaded with viruses. And they usually are.
cracks of mp3's?
Old 2nd January 2011
  #9
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Gullik's Avatar
 

The key to stop piracy of mp3, is a subscribe type of businessmodel like Spotify.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbrain View Post
I do believe there is a percentage of folks that will pay... I could say that piracy is the issue for me (me, not the biz in general) but my real issue is promotion and demographics... told you more than I know
and I think that's a valid point and true of many hobbyists and part timers, but maybe they wouldn't be if investors felt there was a return on investment by financially aiding a person like yourself...

piracy makes that return on investment a much harder sell... the investor spends, you become better known, you develop an audience, and they steal the product that should be paying back the investor.

Or, you could spend/invest your own money hiring marketing people and publicists, but you would probably have to ask yourself the same question anyone else putting up that money would be asking themselves... How do I make it back?
Old 2nd January 2011
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by :-) View Post
The key to stop piracy of mp3, is a subscribe type of businessmodel like Spotify.
Spotify is worse than piracy, it's legal and it doesn't pay.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdss View Post

Successful musician aren't gonna do PSA's and risk looking unhip(like Metallica post Napster) especially after "respected" bands like Radiohead and NIN have practically been given the Noble Peace Prize for releasing "free" recordings.
First, many, many successful musicians are campaigning against piracy.
I don't think many professional musicians feel Metallica are unhip. I think many admire them for drawing a line in the sand.
Radiohead have quickly gone back to a standard sales model for their releases.
Yeah, it's great to be popular and all that, but in the end you have to stand up for what you believe in, and I think the few musos who shout "sharing is cool man" are seen as desperate to be loved, and the majority who are honest and say it's ripping off creative people, are seen as genuine.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdss View Post
What are you gonna do?

Kids aren't gonna stop downloading music illegally.
Sure they will when it's easier and safer to download legally that do it illegally.

Sure a few will continue to do it, just like some kids shoplift.

But the majority won't, just as the majority of kids don't shoplift.

As the feds crack down on the large public sites we'll see a big reduction in illegal downloads. Sure there'll be private sites, but those are, by definition, private (and relatively exclusive), and will take measures to stay that way so they don't go the way of OINK! and get shut down.
Quote:
Successful musician aren't gonna do PSA's and risk looking unhip(like Metallica post Napster) especially after "respected" bands like Radiohead and NIN have practically been given the Noble Peace Prize for releasing "free" recordings.
Uh, yeah. right. uh-huh. Funny thing, you don't see them doing it again, do you? That's because those experiments FAILED. Also, those bands could only try those experiments because they'd already made their nut by working with the established industry. That model doesn't work if you're not already famous, in as much as it works at all.

And the thing is, it's not the established musicians who are really getting killed by piracy - it's the younger entry and mid-level bands that can't make ends meet.

Quote:
Even if the music industry and the government worked together to crack down on piracy there's always gonna be some computer nerd out there that would risk the jail time if they could be the one to discover away around it.

Now what?
Sure there will - but as I've repeatedly pointed out, we don't need to eliminate every pimply faced computer geek with no life and tons of free time to devise elaborate hacks. We just need to make it sufficiently difficult/risky to discourage Joe Average. If we can reduce piracy to 1990 levels we'll be just fine. The problem is that piracy has become an epidemic free-for-all and that will be made to end.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
don't drink the cool aid. the wild west wasnt' wild forever and neither will the internet be...
Already we're beginning to see old gunslingers hangin' up the black hat and bandana and pinnin' on a badge.......
Old 2nd January 2011
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

I'll continue to live the way I feel is right, by paying for what I get. Why should I steal just because other kids are doing it? I've been putting "Please don't tape this" on my albums since about 1976. I think living by example is a good strategy.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #16
Gear Nut
 

friends of mine now that limewire is gone are buying itunes cards and really paying for music again.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juniper View Post
In the comment section everyone sounds like a bunch of crybabies.

Several people declaring everyone in france should stop using the internet, as well as some guy declaring he is going to start distributing free copies of DVDs and CDs to everyone he knows to spite the government.

"You mean I can't have free media! Outrageous, boycott!"
If everyone in France stopped using the internet that would pretty much solve the (French) online piracy problem right there.......
Old 2nd January 2011
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
Spotify is worse than piracy, it's legal and it doesn't pay.
Come again?

How can it be legal and not pay?
Old 2nd January 2011
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Come again?

How can it be legal and not pay?
ok - it pays... sorta... but the CEO doesn't know how much activity = One US Dollar and seemingly neither does anyone else...

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/stor...8vv47N0zofYV1g

Spotify Update 02-11-2010

Spotify / Streaming Update 05-07-2010

Why Subscription Services Can't and Won't Work...

this is the best we have at a calculation.

Old 2nd January 2011
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiff View Post
friends of mine now that limewire is gone are buying itunes cards and really paying for music again.
YES!!!!
Old 2nd January 2011
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
ok - it pays... sorta... but the CEO doesn't know how much activity = One US Dollar and seemingly neither does anyone else...

Sure, Streaming Is Better Than Stealing. But Not by Much... - Digital Music News

Spotify Update 02-11-2010

Spotify / Streaming Update 05-07-2010

Why Subscription Services Can't and Won't Work...

this is the best we have at a calculation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah..... Same old chart with the same old fallacy - that one instance of a stream to one listener is equivalent to one download.

But it ain't. Not even close.

One instance of a stream to one listener is equivalent to one play on the radio to one listener.

It's NOT a sale. The customer isn't "paying forward" to be able to listen to the song in the future at his own leisure. He's not "buying anything". It's a 3 minute rental.

So please let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges and not compare grapefruit to go-karts.

OK?
Old 2nd January 2011
  #22
Gear Head
 
engelen62's Avatar
Im afraid there are more evil people on our side than on the pirates side. My strategy is to find ways to survive and not worry. The times they are achanging...
Old 2nd January 2011
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by engelen62 View Post
Im afraid there are more evil people on our side than on the pirates side.
Hmm, what does that mean.... exactly?
Old 4th January 2011
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdss View Post
Even if the music industry and the government worked together to crack down on piracy there's always gonna be some computer nerd out there that would risk the jail time if they could be the one to discover away around it.

Now what?
Music will continue to feel the burn most acutely. Movies will continue to hurt as well. But as DRM based industries like games are now undermined as well (see PS3 this week), and previously impervious industries like books join the club, the rules will change.

With the massive pharmaceutical industry and brands like Nike/NFL also now joining the fight to shut down or block foreign counterfeiters, the rationale for a more strictly regulated Internet will become stronger.

I look forward to seeing how it all goes in 2011 and 2012. The conflict is only going to intensify from here.
Old 4th January 2011
  #25
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Yeah, yeah, yeah..... Same old chart with the same old fallacy - that one instance of a stream to one listener is equivalent to one download.

But it ain't. Not even close.
I don't think that's the point. The point is you'd need over 4 million streams a month on Spotify to make minimum wage.

If you're in a band, you'd need 16 million streams a month to keep all band members at the income level of burger flippers.

And that's before expenses.

Obviously spotify wouldn't be your only source of income as a band, but it shows how little in direct financial royalties it can realistically contribute.
Old 4th January 2011
  #26
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobius.media View Post
I don't think that's the point. The point is you'd need over 4 million streams a month on Spotify to make minimum wage.

If you're in a band, you'd need 16 million streams a month to keep all band members at the income level of burger flippers.

And that's before expenses.

Obviously spotify wouldn't be your only source of income as a band, but it shows how little in direct financial royalties it can realistically contribute.
The other thing about that chart was, reportedly, the chart was based on an earlier fee structure for spotify... not sure how much it changed, but I would like to see a current one.

I think it is an interesting chart, but John is right, it's comparing apples to oranges a bit.

How much does Spotify pay compared to other online outlets (radio paradise, for example)?
Old 4th January 2011
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Yeah, yeah, yeah..... Same old chart with the same old fallacy - that one instance of a stream to one listener is equivalent to one download.

But it ain't. Not even close.

One instance of a stream to one listener is equivalent to one play on the radio to one listener.

It's NOT a sale. The customer isn't "paying forward" to be able to listen to the song in the future at his own leisure. He's not "buying anything". It's a 3 minute rental.

So please let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges and not compare grapefruit to go-karts.

OK?
what do you think a 3 minute rental should charge? Five Cents? Ten Cents? One cent? A half a cent? The problem for Spotify is that even that is undefined... there is no per play fee as it's based on a ever changing rev share calculated by an algorithm.

the even larger problem is when people start looking to Spotify as a replacement for Record sales as opposed to what it really is... a replacement for Radio... sorta... not really. Radio doesn't grant instant access to whatever song you want.

So even as a replacement for Radio it's still questionable math as the "on demand" part is problematic. Thus far, I'd say Pandora has the best model of internet radio by tailoring to Genre tastes, without "on demand" by song.

On demand radio, isn't really radio - it's a cloud streaming service with a massive library - at that point - "access is ownership" which is also OK, if the math works - right now... it doesn't, not if anyone is pinning their hopes on a sustainable ROI for creators.

So before Spotify launches in the USA with a subscription streaming service I'd lay odds of seeing something similar first from either Apple or Google if not both... and neither of those are close to going live either as far as we know.
Old 4th January 2011
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
The other thing about that chart was, reportedly, the chart was based on an earlier fee structure for spotify... not sure how much it changed, but I would like to see a current one.

I think it is an interesting chart, but John is right, it's comparing apples to oranges a bit.

How much does Spotify pay compared to other online outlets (radio paradise, for example)?
if we're comparing apples to apples there are three things being compared:

1) Online Legal Download (ex; Itunes/Amazon)

2) Online Radio (ex; Pandora and Terrestrial Streaming)

3) On Demand Streaming (ex; Spotify/Rhapsody/Napster?)

#'s two and three can be either subscriber based, advertising based, or a hybrid.

how much does satellite radio pay in royalties vs spotify and satellite is not on demand - on demand streaming should pay a premium for that service verses non-on demand streaming.
Old 4th January 2011
  #29
Old 4th January 2011
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Piracy is here to stay, we all know that! But it is no threat...

Has movie pirating killed the movie industry? no they're making more every year

The Numbers - Movie Market Summary 1995 to 2010

Then why have CD sales declined? because no one wants a damn CD, thats why we have itunes. People don't spend less on music now, they have more of it thanks to piracy.

washingtonpost.com: Study: File-Sharing No Threat to Music Sales

The fashion industry does not care about fakes at all, since they (smartly) have concluded that people who buy fake bags are not their target market (they wouldn't buy the expensive bags anyway).

http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_bla...e_culture.html

People get all excited about it but really its a just a way for people to share music they like. Its not stealing, it's not 'piracy', it's copyright infringement - there is a big difference, we all know what it is.

Remember, in the end, obscurity is a greater threat to artists than piracy.
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