The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
So now that Piracy is unstoppable... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 12th January 2011
  #211
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Do you then disagree with the posts of people who have traveled to Rome, often because they are describing their experiences of being in Rome, rather than posting specific data?
If you were talking about what it's like to be in the industry, I would never dispute you.

If you're talking about what the problems are with the industry, then people inside that industry have a lot to say... as do people outside the industry. I find it foolish that you would suggest otherwise. There are analysts outside of many businesses that offer insight into an industry. None of this is unusual or unexpected. You don't OWN the facts, you don't OWN interpretation of data. Just get over it, I'm not going to stop, and I don't think anyone SHOULD stop.

The funny thing it wasn't that long ago we had an exchange where you seemed to agree that people outside an industry can provide valuable insight, now you're reverting back again.

Nothing you can say will change the fact that you, and others in the industry, are not the only people with valid opinions and observations.

Quote:
Though I wish I didn't have to to be honest.
Ya, and I wish I didn't need to explain the same thing over and over to you. You don't have to agree. It is what it is. I think you're wrong and vice versa, but you seem to really enjoy the back and forth and repetition. OK.
Old 12th January 2011
  #212
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
If you were talking about what it's like to be in the industry, I would never dispute you.

If you're talking about what the problems are with the industry, then people inside that industry have a lot to say... as do people outside the industry. I find it foolish that you would suggest otherwise.
Yeah, accept people like you tell us there is no trickle down from successful artists to the less successful.
I was a member of many such bands, but you still wouldn't be told otherwise.
People like you claim talent has been locked out of record sales.
And yet I pointed out the punk, new wave and indie label revolution. How positive it was for the smaller, less popular artists. I was there and benefited greatly myself. And yet you and others could not be persuaded.
We are constantly told by members who've never been in a band, let alone toured for more than a week, how touring is going to provide income lost from pirated record sales. When I and others post about the realities, we are derided by you and others of your persuasion.
It's not that you don't have a view, it's that your view is ill informed on several aspects, and also that you wont accept the views of others who are informed.
It's exactly like telling someone there's a great restaurant next to the Trevi Fountain in Rome, because you read it in someone's blog, you've never been there. When someone say's they've been there and the food was ghastly you say that's just an 'opinion' and you'd have to see the data.

Quote:
You don't OWN the facts, you don't OWN interpretation of data. Just get over it, I'm not going to stop, and I don't think anyone SHOULD stop.
Never said i did.
I OWN years of experience dealing with record companies. I OWN years of experience slogging it out in rehearsal rooms, and on the road, sometimes in a private jet, sometimes in a wreck of a van.
When you and others tell us what's happening inside the industry - like how so many artists are ripped off, and how Lady GaGa record sales couldn't possibly be benefitting Seasick Steve, you don't OWN that information. You picked it up somewhere.

Quote:
The funny thing it wasn't that long ago we had an exchange where you seemed to agree that people outside an industry can provide valuable insight, now you're reverting back again.
Nope, I'm clear. I was clear a few posts ago. They have a valuable insight. But when it comes to how things work IN the industry, like dealing with contracts, dealing with A&R and the label management team, the costs in making a record, the value of touring etc, their comments are less valuable, often valueless. Because they have zero experience in such matters.
Old 13th January 2011
  #213
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I had said something about older established people being out of touch with the changes that are happening, and if you go back and look at my first post in this thread you will see I was simply trying to lend a different perspective to the discussion that is not from either side. It may not offer a practical or realistic solution, but I was simply trying to be helpful. So if you would like to talk about setting the tone for a lack of respect and agenda go back and read my first post in this thread on page 5, and read John's response to me. That is where the tone was set for lack of respect as far as my position in this debate. So likewise, a little respect would go a long way if you would like people to sympathize with you.
Well, the thing is that your initial post contained various attitudes and assumptions about the music industry that are generally untrue, somewhat slanderous, and commonly employed as excuses by the pro-piracy crowd.

Not all these attitudes are spread by people who come right out and support piracy and some have been entrenched in certain circles of music journalism for quite a while because frankly it makes good copy and boosts sales to slag the record companies and talk about how they're exploiting the poor artists, even though in many or most cases the journalist writing the article knows that what he's saying is not generally true of industry practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
And I also speak my position with a little experience, because I went through a phase where I would preach to people about supporting music, and illegally downloading stuff. And while some musicians supported what I was saying, in the grand scheme of things it served only to disconnect me from fans, so I decided it is what it is and it is time to figure out a new approach. I haven't gotten far enough to figure out what that is yet, but I will remain looking and don't intend to go backwards.
I think the Mike Lombardo video is a great approach.
Old 13th January 2011
  #214
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Ditto. thumbsup

I've got to say I genuinely worry for the future of young musicians.
I also get frustrated at the posts that claim those against piracy are protecting their own incomes.
It's actually not that popular to be against piracy, nor is it necessarily selfish.
When I look at the people who come on this forum and claim piracy is way over stated, or they worry more about their net freedoms, or that the labels need punishing, or that musicians are 'entitled' in some ugly way, the vast, vast majority are hobbyists, wannabe's or part timers. You can see this by reading other posts they write around Gearslutz. Of course almost all of them have opaque screen names and no links to MySpace or website.
A "fan" who won't pay for your music isn't a fan. They just want to rip you off. What, you should give them your record for free in the hopes that they might go see your show that you'll be lucky to break even on after you factor in expenses or buy your t-shirt that costs you almost as much as you can sell it for?

Really?
Old 13th January 2011
  #215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester View Post
Thats just a bit of hyperbole to make a point. Not to be taken literally. I merely saying what any contemporary social critic/scientist type nowadays would...that the internet and technology has made everyone content providers with the world their potential audience
And that's pie-in-the-sky sociological claptrap. The fact is that the vast majority are not "content providers" and never will be. It takes talent, hard work, and investment of both time and money to be a content provider. A camcorder video of Joe Blow playing guitar in his living room is not the equivalent of a well prepared, well written, and well produced video by a professional act and production team. That's not to say that a real artist can't make an interesting video at home - but that does not make it the equivalent of your home video.

Live From Daryl's House with Daryl Hall :: Homepage

I'm sorry, but there are only so many videos of your sister playing the ukelele of your kitten riding a skateboard that people will watch. It's really not very entertaining. People want QUALITY.

Quote:
I think people will take what they can. That people will download music , I believe, is not necessarily driven by any sort of sense of value in the way you or others mean it. The value, if any, is that it can be downloaded for free..thats the value in it.
Sure, people value music to the extent that people like to have music to listen to, but that may be the extent of their investment in it.
I mean, lol, if they REALLY valued it, they'd pay for it! heh
They would pay for it if it wasn't so easy to steal. That's the whole point.
Old 13th January 2011
  #216
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yeah, accept people like you tell us there is no trickle down from successful artists to the less successful.
Interesting... I didn't think I thought that, but thanks for clarifying what I think.

I don't doubt that there is reinvestment going on in the industry, but it seems to me that reinvestment is in the next pop idol, not in musicians to develop careers.

Quote:
We are constantly told by members who've never been in a band, let alone toured for more than a week, how touring is going to provide income lost from pirated record sales. When I and others post about the realities, we are derided by you and others of your persuasion
.

Oh, right... you must be thinking of the post where I suggested touring would make up the difference... er... wait... I never said that. Hmm... 0 for 2 so far.

Quote:
It's not that you don't have a view, it's that your view is ill informed on several aspects, and also that you wont accept the views of others who are informed.
I have always accepted your perspective. I don't always agree with you, and I don't blindly trust you (for reasons I've already made clear). Accept, to you, means blind agreement it seems. Sorry...
Old 13th January 2011
  #217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Shadow View Post
Just to weigh in here - it is currently very difficult to enforce national and international internet and piracy law are on a global scale. There is no legal way for the USA or any other country/union of countries to take down an illegal web site that is not hosted on its territory.

Countries like Russia make no efforts at all to take down illegal web sites hosted on their territory. A solution would be to impose economical sanctions on countries who make no efforts to combat piracy, but I'm sure you'll understand that very few governments are willing to go that far.

Even if the US succeeds in shutting down all illegal activity on its territory, downloaders need only surf to another web site hosted on non-American soil.
Which is where domain blocking comes in. I'm not entirely in favor of it because I believe there's a great potential for misuse but it definitely looks like the COICA bill is going to be enacted as it has strong bi-partisan support.

It won't be possible to shut down ALL pirate activity, but that's not the point.

The point is to make it sufficiently inconvenient for Joe and Jane Average, who are essentially non-technical and somewhat lazy, to pirate music instead of paying the very reasonable legal price for it.
Old 13th January 2011
  #218
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
Interesting... I didn't think I thought that, but thanks for clarifying what I think.

I don't doubt that there is reinvestment going on in the industry, but it seems to me that reinvestment is in the next pop idol, not in musicians to develop careers.
As I told you before (from experience), it was very much the industry model.
You're telling me you don't think it' developed musician's careers other than creating the next pop idol, even though you haven't been involved and I have benefitted myself. You've perfectly illustrated my point.

Quote:
Oh, right... you must be thinking of the post where I suggested touring would make up the difference... er... wait... I never said that. Hmm... 0 for 2 so far.
I have always accepted your perspective.
As always, you seem to think this is a binary heh argument strictly between you and me.
No, my posts on this subject have been absolutely clear, absolutely clear.
I'm calling out all those forum members who haven't traveled to Rome, and yet tell those of us who have, what it's really like.
There seems to be a bottomless pit of amateur and hobbyist members who post that musicians would be better off selling t-shirts than signing a record deal, or that most musicians have been raped more often by record labels than by pirates, or that working musicians feel 'entitled'.
Old 13th January 2011
  #219
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
Classic John moment... false categorization combined with an attempt to insult combined with an inane term all in one line. Beautiful.
You can deny it till you're blue in the face but your every argument belies your protestations.

Sticking your tongue out. How apropos.
Old 13th January 2011
  #220
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
...I have benefitted myself. You've perfectly illustrated my point.
Yes, when was that? I'm talking about now, not ten years ago.

Quote:
No, my posts on this subject have been absolutely clear, absolutely clear.


Quote:
I'm calling out all those forum members who haven't traveled to Rome
Yes, I'm calling out arrogant industry insiders who think they know more than they do. Carry on.
Old 13th January 2011
  #221
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
Why would someone else's ignorance insult you John? That doesn't make sense.
It's not their ignorance that's the problem. It's their willful and vehement defense of that ignorance in the face of all logic, reason, and evidence that's the problem.

Quote:
It is no insult to me when you are wrong.
That's because I'm not and you know it.

And again with the tongue. How mature........
Old 13th January 2011
  #222
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
Yes, when was that? I'm talking about now, not ten years ago.
No when it came up you were talking historically. When the argument shifted to now, 'Purple Vista', John and I of course pointed out that greatly reduced income from record sales both threatened the trickle down of funds, and the labels willingness to support and nurture less potentially successful musicians.



Quote:
Yes, I'm calling out arrogant industry insiders who think they know more than they do. Carry on.
Yeah funny.
I'll reword it for you to repeat my point, the one you've been arguing about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
I'm calling out arrogant people who've been to Rome who think they know more about Rome than people who have never left the USA
Old 13th January 2011
  #223
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
How mature........
Yes, the term "freetard" is so much more mature.
Old 13th January 2011
  #224
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'll reword it for you to repeat my point, the one you've been arguing about.

Chris, it's pretty bad form to misquote me. Please correct this. Otherwise I will report the post. Thanks.
Old 13th January 2011
  #225
Report it if you like.
I made it clear and obvious I was changing the words. You ain't seen that before? It happens on Gearslutz all the time, and people add the words "here I fixed it for you".
Hey you may be able to get me banned and silence my 'industry perspective' once and for all.
Reporting me is like going to teacher. It's just a diversion from the simple fact if you ain't been to Rome, you just can't tell people who have they're biased ants.
Old 13th January 2011
  #226
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Report it if you like.
Done. This is the kind of piss-poor ethics I've grown to expect from you Chris. You've reached a new low, and that's saying something.
Old 13th January 2011
  #227
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
Yes, the term "freetard" is so much more mature.
If the foo sh*ts.....

I suppose calling them "thieves" is better.... I thought calling them "freetards" was allowing at least a little benefit of the doubt.
Old 13th January 2011
  #228
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
Chris, it's pretty bad form to misquote me. Please correct this. Otherwise I will report the post. Thanks.
Coming from you, the master at misquotation, that's farcical. And, unlike you, I don't think he meant to imply that he said that or expected anybody to believe it so.

Do you want us to start reporting every time you deliberately misquote somebody or intentionally take their words out of context so as to imply they said something other than what was meant?

I really don't think you want to go there.
Old 13th January 2011
  #229
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
Done. This is the kind of piss-poor ethics I've grown to expect from you Chris. You've reached a new low, and that's saying something.
Yeah, don't forget all the times you've personally abused me, even called me untrustworthy on a public forum.
Reporting me is one of a slew strange tactics you've employed over the years to try and derail me from my mission to keep the forum grounded in reality.
In the final analysis, you have no argument in the case: People who have visited Rome vs People who haven't.
So you've reported me.
Maybe I should have told a moderator how upset I was being called an untrustworthy ant.
But actually I was just adult about it and got over it.
Old 13th January 2011
  #230
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Do you want us to start reporting every time you deliberately misquote somebody or intentionally take their words out of context so as to imply they said something other than what was meant?

I really don't think you want to go there.
Now you're just being WTF Eppstein now. Please, report me. I have never changed a single word of text in a quote... NEVER.

When I make a mistake and misinterpret, I apologize. Yes, it happens, and I man up. You? Make apologies for your sycophant. Class.
Old 13th January 2011
  #231
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
Done. This is the kind of piss-poor ethics I've grown to expect from you Chris. You've reached a new low, and that's saying something.
And you as well.
Old 13th January 2011
  #232
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yeah, don't forget all the times you've personally abused me, even called me untrustworthy on a public forum.
You are untrustworthy. I don't believe I can trust you to interpret data. Sorry, that's the way I see it.

You also lack integrity, deliberately misquoting me without apology and refusing to correct it. Yet, you are surprised at the lack of ethics of illegal downloaders? Clean up your own house, Chris.

Quote:
Maybe I should have told a moderator how upset I was being called an untrustworthy ant.
But actually I was just adult about it and got over it.
Chris, I have no problem if you were to report each and every perceived slight. I will follow the rules here. If what I've said is out of bounds, I will follow the rules. No problem.
Old 13th January 2011
  #233
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
You are untrustworthy.
You also lack integrity, deliberately misquoting me without apology and refusing to correct it. Yet, you are surprised at the lack of ethics of illegal downloaders? Clean up your own house, Chris.
Great.
It's out there now.
As you mention 'integrity'.......
Please post your real name and a few more details about you, so at least I (Chris Whitten) am not being accused of rather shocking public behaviour by someone who hides from the same public scrutiny with anonymity.
Old 13th January 2011
  #234
Eat
Lives for gear
 

awwwright, cat fight reeeerrrrrrrrrrr
Old 13th January 2011
  #235
Yeah, it does feel rather like that.
Old 13th January 2011
  #236
if you can't make a point, make a personal attack (or a passive aggressive instigation to provoke a personal attack so that you can play victim and accuse other people of attacking you unfairly).
Old 13th January 2011
  #237
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

Why do i feel like we're trying to explain to a dog why it's going to the vet?

Just put it in the car and drive.
Old 13th January 2011
  #238
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple vista View Post
if you can't make a point, make a personal attack (or a passive aggressive instigation to provoke a personal attack so that you can play victim and accuse other people of attacking you unfairly).
That sounds exactly like your raison d'etre.... check please, good night!

BTW... I guess your resolve didn't last long.
Old 13th January 2011
  #239
Quote:
Originally Posted by determinimum View Post
That sounds exactly like your raison d'etre.... check please, good night!
Oh, my god...... "I know you are but what am I?"....... Why don't you come out and say it?
Old 13th January 2011
  #240
Gear Addict
 
rhythmic5's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Which is where domain blocking comes in. I'm not entirely in favor of it because I believe there's a great potential for misuse but it definitely looks like the COICA bill is going to be enacted as it has strong bi-partisan support.

It won't be possible to shut down ALL pirate activity, but that's not the point.

The point is to make it sufficiently inconvenient for Joe and Jane Average, who are essentially non-technical and somewhat lazy, to pirate music instead of paying the very reasonable legal price for it.
it seems like domain blocking could become quite a slippery slope though...
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Rick Sanchez / Post Production forum
152
syoreed / Music Computers
43
mac black / Downloads, the future - Q+A forum with expert guests from CD Baby, Tunecore and Nimbit
15

Forum Jump
Forum Jump