The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
So now that Piracy is unstoppable... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 9th January 2011
  #121
Lives for gear
As far as I'm concerned "Internet Royalties" is the only logical way to solve the piracy issue. It doesn't matter how you get the music, every play/download will be recorded/reported and PRO's should collect a certain percentage of internet access fee's from internet providers to distribute for performance royalties. This of course goes along with the idea that EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET SHOULD BE FREE. You pay a certain amount every month for the internet and anything you can access is fair game.

To be fair to the consumer... they are already paying high fee's for internet access. They browse around and find something cool, that they believe they are paying for and they download it. Not everyone sees that as stealing... Much like the prison system does not prevent crimes or reform criminals, punishing downloaders will not help the piracy issue. Claiming a moral high ground is equally (un)helpful...

If people were really concerned with stopping or helping this issue they would start looking towards the source rather than try to blame and punish offenders.

And another more drastic option is to invent a new media format that is analog by nature, but with the convenience of digital. New connectors, totally proprietary, but able to play in cars and skip tracks like a cd. At first no one will have the tools to easily rip to digital. Once something like that comes out repeat the process.

At this point the only way that the internet is going away is if society goes with it.

-Danny
Old 9th January 2011
  #122
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
As far as I'm concerned "Internet Royalties" is the only logical way to solve the piracy issue.
Could be.

Quote:
This of course goes along with the idea that EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET SHOULD BE FREE.
Already that's changing though.

Quote:
To be fair to the consumer... they are already paying high fee's for internet access. They browse around and find something cool, that they believe they are paying for and they download it.
I don't believe they think they're already paying for it.
Also, I can guarantee you Americans pay less for their internet than many others around the world. They're probably getting an amazing deal, without expecting free music for life.

Quote:
Claiming a moral high ground is equally (un)helpful...
Why? The simple fact is it's wrong and an ugly way to treat fellow citizens (creative people). What's wrong with telling it like it is? So people hate being told what they're doing is wrong, and shot-termism that'll come back to bite them. That's nothing new. People don't like to be told cigarettes will most likely kill them.

Quote:
If people were really concerned with stopping or helping this issue they would start looking towards the source rather than try to blame and punish offenders.
What is 'the source'?


Quote:
At this point the only way that the internet is going away is if society goes with it.
The internet isn't going away, no. But things inevitably change. And new things (as in the net) usually evolve.
Old 9th January 2011
  #123
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
As far as I'm concerned "Internet Royalties" is the only logical way to solve the piracy issue. It doesn't matter how you get the music, every play/download will be recorded/reported and PRO's should collect a certain percentage of internet access fee's from internet providers to distribute for performance royalties. This of course goes along with the idea that EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET SHOULD BE FREE. You pay a certain amount every month for the internet and anything you can access is fair game.
Oh DOOD! You're SOoooo 1995.

That kind of thinking has been convincingly proven not to work.

And putting a "music tax" on all traffic at the ISP level won't fly because it penalizes everybody who doesn't steal music on the internet. Business won't stand for it.

Quote:
To be fair to the consumer... they are already paying high fee's for internet access. They browse around and find something cool, that they believe they are paying for and they download it. Not everyone sees that as stealing... Much like the prison system does not prevent crimes or reform criminals, punishing downloaders will not help the piracy issue. Claiming a moral high ground is equally (un)helpful...
Stop making excuses for your criminal behavior. Don't be a wuss - If you're gonna be an outlaw, BE AN OUTLAW. Just expect to get taken down like an outlaw when your time comes.

Quote:
If people were really concerned with stopping or helping this issue they would start looking towards the source rather than try to blame and punish offenders.
And what "source" would that be, HMmmmm?

Quote:
And another more drastic option is to invent a new media format that is analog by nature, but with the convenience of digital. New connectors, totally proprietary, but able to play in cars and skip tracks like a cd. At first no one will have the tools to easily rip to digital. Once something like that comes out repeat the process.
Won't work. You can't copy protect audio no matter what you do. It's physically impossible.

And even if you could, the public would not embrace a new format simply because it allows the industry to implement DRM.

As far as analog formats go, we have two - vinyl and tape. Don't need another.

Quote:
At this point the only way that the internet is going away is if society goes with it.

-Danny
Society changes.

At the beginning of the 20th century society changed and the Wild West went away.

At the beginning of the 21st century the same is about to happen with the Wild Internet.

The Pinkerton's are comin' Sundance - time to pack up and head down to Peru. (Butch Cassidy)
Old 9th January 2011
  #124
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
As far as I'm concerned "Internet Royalties" is the only logical way to solve the piracy issue. It doesn't matter how you get the music, every play/download will be recorded/reported and PRO's should collect a certain percentage of internet access fee's from internet providers to distribute for performance royalties.

This of course goes along with the idea that EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET SHOULD BE FREE.

You pay a certain amount every month for the internet and anything you can access is fair game.
I agree, Everything On The Internet Should Be Free... when you pay $1,200 a month for access... you first...
Old 9th January 2011
  #125
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Stop making excuses for your criminal behavior. Don't be a wuss - If you're gonna be an outlaw, BE AN OUTLAW. Just expect to get taken down like an outlaw when your time comes.
MY criminal behavior? I own about 2,000 cds, some cassette tapes, vinyl, concert/documentary vhs/dvd, not to mention well over 100 band t-shirts that I've bought over the years supporting bands I like. Basically I will buy anything and everything from anyone who interests me, and have been since I was about 10. Bad assumption on your part... If someone sees things differently from you they must be a criminal? Didn't you say something to me about dated thinking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
And what "source" would that be, HMmmmm?
The source is the internet... If internet providers are charging a fee to give people access to this thing, should they not accept some responsibility for what they have access to? Say an average internet subscription is $30/month and 100 million people in the US have a subscription... If internet providers had to pay in $1/month to PRO's from every subscription, that's an extra 100 mil a month to be divided up among what gets played. Of course then the internet providers would have to soon do this for other industries affected, and they would have a huge whole in their pocket so they wont voluntarily go for this. So, instead of whining about who downloaded what, get a plan together to go to the "source" and collect the money from the people who have it, if it holds up in court.

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the "internet" is a huge industry, and providing internet service is run rather mafia-like, similar to the old music business. These are the people who now have a big chunk of the money that used to float around the music industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Why? The simple fact is it's wrong and an ugly way to treat fellow citizens (creative people). What's wrong with telling it like it is? So people hate being told what they're doing is wrong, and shot-termism that'll come back to bite them. That's nothing new. People don't like to be told cigarettes will most likely kill them.
I'm not a religious person per-say, but one thing that has always kind of struck home with me is that it is not anyone's place to judge another person. Even if it is wrong in your eyes, because unless you are omnipotent there is no way for you to know from what perspective someone else sees something. So if you choose not to do something because you have a moral issue with it, good for you, you are a good person and you will be rewarded by heaven or karma or whatever you believe in if you believe in that sort of thing. IMO it would be a wrong and ugly world where we'd rather put someone in jail (essentially ruining someones life...) than lose a few bucks.

The whole "illegal" this and "outlaw" that holds no ground with me because there have been many bull**** laws enforced for bull**** reasons. At one time in this country it was illegal to consider and treat a black person as a human being, at one time it was illegal for women to vote.

If creative people are who we are trying to protect, then maybe they should be creative about a solution for this. The problem is, most creative people find ways to adapt and deal with situations like this, instead of wasting every spare breath trying to convince people what they are doing is wrong.

None of this is an advocacy for pro-piracy, I don't support it, and I, for the most part, try to be a respectful and law-abiding citizen. I support music, but I also don't support the greedy, materialistic, capitalist society we've created, so it is a fine line to try and balance both arguments. I am just trying to be realistic about things that are changing rapidly, and trying to figure out how to adapt with it. The old folks are hanging on as long as they can to the old ways because they will be mostly irrelevant in the near future.

-Danny
Old 9th January 2011
  #126
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the "internet" is a huge industry, and providing internet service is run rather mafia-like, similar to the old music business. These are the people who now have a big chunk of the money that used to float around the music industry.
Hi Danny,

with all respect dude - you might want to educate your self on some baseline facts about the issues.

the record industry has lost 8.3 Billion dollars over 10 years with a now annual revenues (from 2009) at like 6.4 Billion annually. 100 Million a month from a PRO type system is ONLY 1.2 Billion Dollars Annually so that's not really a solution is it?

everyone who still has products that can't be pirated now have a chunk of the money that used to float around the music industry, it's not just the ISP's although I will say you are right that they are most likely profiting the most as their businesses are built on free content they don't have to pay for...

You seem like a reasonable and smart guy who wants to contribute meaningfully to the conversation but thus far you are presenting a bunch of misinformed and misguided rhetoric which has already be debonked many times.

The most likely solution to all this is people paying for what they actually consumer through a combination of changes in commerce, distribution methodology, and enforcement.

Just as the wild west wasn't wild forever, neither will the internet be... these might help you get up to speed:

Book (Great Q&A wit the author at this link as well)
Amazon.com: You Are Not a Gadget: A Manifesto (9780307269645): Jaron Lanier: Books

Book On Tape/Audible:
iTunes Store

FREE Links to Podcast Interviews/Lectures:
London School of Economics: Public lectures and events - Download free podcast episodes by London School of Economics on iTunes.
RSA Events: Audio - Download free podcast episodes by RSA on iTunes.
RSA Events: Vision videos - Download free podcast episodes by RSA on iTunes.

Old 9th January 2011
  #127
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by purple vista View Post
Hi Danny,

with all respect dude - you might want to educate your self on some baseline facts about the issues.

the record industry has lost 8.3 Billion dollars over 10 years with a now annual revenues (from 2009) at like 6.4 Billion annually. 100 Million a month from a PRO type system is ONLY 1.2 Billion Dollars Annually so that's not really a solution is it?
Please stop calling me dude...

I simply made up numbers, but the numbers I made up were for the US, the record industry is global, so when you put it that way it seems like a perfectly viable option with a look at THESE STATS, which are from 2007 so they have only increased. 66 mil in the US, just over 300 mil worldwide. Which using the $1 ratio would be at least $3.6 billion a year, just from internet subscriptions. It would not be meant to replace buying music, whether physical cds or even itunes, just an option to get some of the money lost from piracy back into the industry. Hell the public doesn't even have to necessarily know about it, I'm simply talking about charging the ISP's a fee for allowing access to this stuff. Maybe if they have to pay back some of the money they've earned from piracy, they will look for better long term solutions to avoid it.

It would also not be penalizing anyone who buys music, because you pay an internet fee anyway and all streaming media is now free instead of free to access but illegal to do so. If you are a music fan you still have the option to go buy the cd, and many will, I still do. A local record store has buy 1 get 1 free used cds every year on new years day. I go every year, and it is always packed. I got 12 cds this year, and there were plenty of people with shopping baskets full.


Quote:
Originally Posted by purple vista View Post

everyone who still has products that can't be pirated now have a chunk of the money that used to float around the music industry, it's not just the ISP's although I will say you are right that they are most likely profiting the most as their businesses are built on free content they don't have to pay for...

You seem like a reasonable and smart guy who wants to contribute meaningfully to the conversation but thus far you are presenting a bunch of misinformed and misguided rhetoric which has already be debonked many times.

The most likely solution to all this is people paying for what they actually consumer through a combination of changes in commerce, distribution methodology, and enforcement.
Well I only chimed in, because I felt I was reading a bunch misguided rhetoric blaming all the worlds problems on piracy and making criminals out of yet another (no matter how unfortunate) whole generation. They are not all bad people, just raised in a different world. This is a world with the internet: "all the information in the world coming soon to your fingertips...". I was not even presenting a solution per-say, I have not put any thought into this previously as far as developing a plan and what I said was just pretty much off the top of my head. I don't know the solution, but I do think that the approach people have been taking is all wrong, and not realistically effective at this point in time.

Anyway, I agree with the last part. Any idea of what those new changes will actually be? What (if any) new technology will be introduced? Who is paying for it? That's the hard part and the thing that people need to focus on rather than worry about the immediacy of who is downloading stuff right now. Everyone knows people download stuff for free off the internet. Whether it is right or wrong doesn't matter, what matters is an effective strategy to stop it, and how that will affect the publics attitude towards the music industry.

Back to my thoughts on the ISP's... this is what people choose to spend their money on now. If you go back to how much money the music industry has lost over the last 10 years, also take a look at how much ISPs have made over that time. I don't know the numbers, but it would be naive to not acknowledge there is only so much money in the world, and especially in economies like the US. It is regulated, and when this relatively new, massive multi-billion dollar industry pops up and starts reporting earnings like that, simple math will tell you there is not enough money to go around like it used to. And since I believe they, if anyone, should be held responsible for piracy, I see no reason not to look in that direction as a solution.

So yes, I am trying to contribute some productive food for thought to this conversation, because I too would like to see the issue taken care of, but all I was proposing is to stop trying to do the same thing and expect different results. The current anti-piracy standpoint is not offering a solution. Making examples of people to set precedents is not a solution. If the suggestion to try something new is "misinformed misguided rhetoric" then I guess I can not contribute anything to this discussion, and you are free to continue the crusade.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, I am all for a heated intelligent debate, and I, like anyone else, get frustrated by this. That is why I am trying to be a little more drastic and outside the box when thinking about this from now on. I don't want to sink with the box, and would hate to see it happen to others in the industry, especially the ones who have been doing this for years and have helped contribute meaningful music to peoples lives..

-Danny
Old 9th January 2011
  #128
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
Please stop calling me dude...
sure thing bro! (jus kidding...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I simply made up numbers,
that's obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
but the numbers I made up were for the US, the record industry is global, so when you put it that way it seems like a perfectly viable option with a look at THESE STATS, which are from 2007 so they have only increased. 66 mil in the US, just over 300 mil worldwide. Which using the $1 ratio would be at least $3.6 billion a year, just from internet subscriptions. It would not be meant to replace buying music, whether physical cds or even itunes, just an option to get some of the money lost from piracy back into the industry. Hell the public doesn't even have to necessarily know about it, I'm simply talking about charging the ISP's a fee for allowing access to this stuff. Maybe if they have to pay back some of the money they've earned from piracy, they will look for better long term solutions to avoid it.
I think it's unlikely to be able to charge people for something without them knowing about it. I also think that there are several problems with this - first being the most obvious.

How do you track consumption for the fair distribution of the revenue? Ok, now that you can fairly track consumption, why not just simply charge people for that consumption on a per unit basis?

the second issue is, this goes way beyond music... what about movies, video games, software, ebooks, etc - does a dollar per house hold, per month, really cover all of that illegal consumption?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
It would also not be penalizing anyone who buys music, because you pay an internet fee anyway and all streaming media is now free instead of free to access but illegal to do so. If you are a music fan you still have the option to go buy the cd, and many will, I still do. A local record store has buy 1 get 1 free used cds every year on new years day. I go every year, and it is always packed. I got 12 cds this year, and there were plenty of people with shopping baskets full.
But why would a person choose to pay for the same product twice if they are now allowed to take what ever they want for their one dollar a month fee?

Or are you saying piracy is still illegal and people can be prosecuted for stealing despite paying the one dollar a month for unlimited access?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
Well I only chimed in, because I felt I was reading a bunch misguided rhetoric blaming all the worlds problems on piracy and making criminals out of yet another (no matter how unfortunate) whole generation. They are not all bad people, just raised in a different world. This is a world with the internet: "all the information in the world coming soon to your fingertips...". I was not even presenting a solution per-say, I have not put any thought into this previously as far as developing a plan and what I said was just pretty much off the top of my head. I don't know the solution, but I do think that the approach people have been taking is all wrong, and not realistically effective at this point in time.
we'll have to agree to disagree - it's unrealistic and grossly immature to think that everything that has even been created, with investments in millions (and millions) of dollars should be free for the taking, against the will of those who created it, and without consequence.

I don't really see it as a generational problem, I see it as a human problem. If people (of any generation) can steal without consequence, they will - and this is what we are seeing, and piracy is that problem.

the wild west wasn't wild forever, and it's naive to think to the internet will be either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
Anyway, I agree with the last part. Any idea of what those new changes will actually be? What (if any) new technology will be introduced? Who is paying for it? That's the hard part and the thing that people need to focus on rather than worry about the immediacy of who is downloading stuff right now. Everyone knows people download stuff for free off the internet. Whether it is right or wrong doesn't matter, what matters is an effective strategy to stop it, and how that will affect the publics attitude towards the music industry.
again - it's not really about the music industry - it's about ALL of the content industries (music, movies, software, video games, ebooks, live sports streaming, etc) - it's a mistake to think that piracy is a problem that only effects the record industry, although it has probably effected the record industry the worst.

here's what we're looking at going into the new year:
5 New Anti-Piracy Strategies

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
Back to my thoughts on the ISP's... this is what people choose to spend their money on now. If you go back to how much money the music industry has lost over the last 10 years, also take a look at how much ISPs have made over that time. I don't know the numbers, but it would be naive to not acknowledge there is only so much money in the world, and especially in economies like the US. It is regulated, and when this relatively new, massive multi-billion dollar industry pops up and starts reporting earnings like that, simple math will tell you there is not enough money to go around like it used to. And since I believe they, if anyone, should be held responsible for piracy, I see no reason not to look in that direction as a solution.
we agree:
Who's Really Destroying Music? Take a Closer Look...

like I said, you seem like a smart guy and there are plenty of threads around here in the music business and piracy forums with a lot of information (and opinions) about these topics and their current states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
So yes, I am trying to contribute some productive food for thought to this conversation, because I too would like to see the issue taken care of, but all I was proposing is to stop trying to do the same thing and expect different results. The current anti-piracy standpoint is not offering a solution. Making examples of people to set precedents is not a solution. If the suggestion to try something new is "misinformed misguided rhetoric" then I guess I can not contribute anything to this discussion, and you are free to continue the crusade.
I've provide links above to two threads that may be of interest to you.

Again - you would benefit from being up to speed on the issues - individual lawsuits have been stopped by the RIAA in favor of Top Down rather than Bottom Up solutions. The cases on the books, particularly Tenenbaum and Thomas provide all the precedents that are needed, it is theft, there are consequences.

I guess we'll see how Hadopi plays out in France as well. Efforts are being focused at the highest levels of government. Check out the links in my sig as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I mean no disrespect to anyone, I am all for a heated intelligent debate, and I, like anyone else, get frustrated by this. That is why I am trying to be a little more drastic and outside the box when thinking about this from now on. I don't want to sink with the box, and would hate to see it happen to others in the industry, especially the ones who have been doing this for years and have helped contribute meaningful music to peoples lives..

-Danny
That's great to hear and I appreciate your contributions - again, I think a little of getting up to speed on current events might help shape your perspective a bit.

I think more people coming forward like this couldn't hurt either.

YouTube - MIKE LOMBARDO SMACKDOWN

Old 9th January 2011
  #129
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
Well I only chimed in, because I felt I was reading a bunch misguided rhetoric blaming all the worlds problems on piracy and making criminals out of yet another (no matter how unfortunate) whole generation.
Danny,
The laws that protect musicians have been very hard fought for.
We've basically been taken advantage of for hundreds of years, only in the last few decades have we seen a shift to a more fair playing field. That was until people started to take our work without paying.
I can't see how you feel 'wrong' is so subjective under those circumstances.
The people who pirate are abusing ordinary musicians, it's a simple as that.
I'm sure if you asked anyone they could come up with a list of 'bull**** laws' from their own perspective. If everyone in society was allowed to cherry pick their own legal standards, this law is ok, that one is bull****, we'd live in anarchy. What we actually live in is a democracy. You think there are bull**** laws, get out there and persuade a lot of people you're right.
Until then, if you don't follow the law, you're in the wrong. And you are wrong to pirate from musicians. So I see no moral, or legal grey area at all.
What I and a few others on this forum are doing is informing Gearslutz members what the reality for ordinary creative people is. The reality is also framed by the laws and working conditions everyone else in our society enjoys, and musicians should be no different.
It's a shame you seem to think that amounts to 'misguided rhetoric'.
Old 9th January 2011
  #130
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
MY criminal behavior? I own about 2,000 cds, some cassette tapes, vinyl, concert/documentary vhs/dvd, not to mention well over 100 band t-shirts that I've bought over the years supporting bands I like. Basically I will buy anything and everything from anyone who interests me, and have been since I was about 10. Bad assumption on your part... If someone sees things differently from you they must be a criminal? Didn't you say something to me about dated thinking?
Oh, my bad - you're merely the MOUTHPIECE for criminals - kinda like a defense attorney......

Quote:
The source is the internet... If internet providers are charging a fee to give people access to this thing, should they not accept some responsibility for what they have access to? Say an average internet subscription is $30/month and 100 million people in the US have a subscription... If internet providers had to pay in $1/month to PRO's from every subscription, that's an extra 100 mil a month to be divided up among what gets played. Of course then the internet providers would have to soon do this for other industries affected, and they would have a huge whole in their pocket so they wont voluntarily go for this. So, instead of whining about who downloaded what, get a plan together to go to the "source" and collect the money from the people who have it, if it holds up in court.

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the "internet" is a huge industry, and providing internet service is run rather mafia-like, similar to the old music business. These are the people who now have a big chunk of the money that used to float around the music industry.

If a road is the conduit for goods, licit and illicit, to be brought into a city is it the road's responsibility if it is used by smugglers?

I don't think so.......

Quote:
I'm not a religious person per-say, but one thing that has always kind of struck home with me is that it is not anyone's place to judge another person. Even if it is wrong in your eyes, because unless you are omnipotent there is no way for you to know from what perspective someone else sees something. So if you choose not to do something because you have a moral issue with it, good for you, you are a good person and you will be rewarded by heaven or karma or whatever you believe in if you believe in that sort of thing. IMO it would be a wrong and ugly world where we'd rather put someone in jail (essentially ruining someones life...) than lose a few bucks.
So we have no right to judge Jeffrey Dahmer or Bernie Madoff? How about Adolf Eichmann or Idi Amin? How about Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling?

If somebody's greed ruins my life, many others lives, and destroys an entire industry don't they deserve to be punished and have their life ruined too?

Quote:
The whole "illegal" this and "outlaw" that holds no ground with me because there have been many bull**** laws enforced for bull**** reasons. At one time in this country it was illegal to consider and treat a black person as a human being, at one time it was illegal for women to vote.
So you see no difference between supporting human rights and destroying the livelihood of thousands of innocent artists? Buddy, you've got you head screwed on backwards. Time to grow up.

Quote:
None of this is an advocacy for pro-piracy, I don't support it, and I, for the most part, try to be a respectful and law-abiding citizen. I support music, but I also don't support the greedy, materialistic, capitalist society we've created, so it is a fine line to try and balance both arguments. I am just trying to be realistic about things that are changing rapidly, and trying to figure out how to adapt with it. The old folks are hanging on as long as they can to the old ways because they will be mostly irrelevant in the near future.

-Danny
How old are you, sonny?

Do you support yourself or are you still at home or in school?

Have you ever gone out and experienced "reality" for yourself?

What do you do for a living?

Do you play music?

Do you play music for money?

Have you ever made a real record?

Quote:
I support music,
Evidently you don't, actually.

You support the people who rip off the people who make music.

That's not supporting music.

Telling me I should make a career of selling t-shirts is not supporting music.
Old 9th January 2011
  #131
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
IMO it would be a wrong and ugly world where we'd rather put someone in jail (essentially ruining someones life...) than lose a few bucks.
Let's all ruin a few musician's lives for the sake of a few bucks?
Old 9th January 2011
  #132
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Let's all ruin a few musician's lives for the sake of a few bucks?
Naw...... Let's all ruin LOTS of musicians' lives for the sake of a few bucks!
Old 9th January 2011
  #133
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Evidently you don't, actually.

You support the people who rip off the people who make music.

That's not supporting music.

Telling me I should make a career of selling t-shirts is not supporting music.
DOOD, I never said I support people who rip off music. I never said I agree with, encourage or participate in any illegal downloading, because I don't. I own way more music than I even listen to. I never said you should make a career out of selling t-shirts, I simply said I buy t-shirts as well as cds from bands I like.


If you would like a short history: I'm 25, I play music "full time on a part time salary". I've played shows with bands such as Gary Jules, Bayside, All Time Low, Circa Survive, Strike Anywhere, Bigwig, Tsunami Bomb, Over It, The Queers, Pistolita, Recieving End Of Sirens, Say Anything, others I forget. The band I was in is no longer together, but you can go HERE if you would like to hear some recordings we did. I graduated from an audio trade school about 2 years ago, and I have my associates. I want to go back to school, though I don't know if I want to get a bachelors in music theory even though thats what I've studied, I just don't know if I want to be a teacher and I don't need any more degrees that wont get me a job. I'm not a seasoned pro, I'm just finally starting to get some recognition in my area for some of the things I'm good at. I'm young and I'm learning still and always. I've more or less given up on the "band" thing, and I like writing and recording much more than playing live, so I'm putting my efforts towards composing. Currently I am recording an EP for someone, and writing a wedding march and "first dance/wedding song" which I will be getting paid to do. I'm also trying to focus on licensing, because in case you didn't know, it's hard to sell cds. I live at home because, well that doesn't cut it. How about a donation for the poor musician? Paypal is fine.

I don't have a back up plan, but at least you could go into politics if this industry completely fails.
Old 9th January 2011
  #134
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I don't have a back up plan, but at least you could go into politics if this industry completely fails.
thumbsup

Welcome to the piracy forum! Good luck with that.
Old 10th January 2011
  #135
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I like writing and recording much more than playing live, so I'm putting my efforts towards composing. I'm also trying to focus on licensing, because in case you didn't know, it's hard to sell cds. I live at home because, well that doesn't cut it. How about a donation for the poor musician? Paypal is fine.
Good luck to you friend.
I can relate. I've done a lot of touring and prefer writing and recording too.
I can't quite see how it'll be possible to earn a living just recording, if recordings become a freely shared item for everyone, and for good.
Maybe there is an answer. I can't quite see it.
I think what some of us here are hoping for is a way to hold onto the benefits many musicians have enjoyed in recent times, specifically - being able to earn money by recording, being able to earn money as a composer, NOT having to live at home.
People like us support the musician advocacy groups that have drawn a line in the sand and said the profession is threatened by widespread theft, and we should look at changing the conditions that allow widespread theft before we look at changing the conditions for dedicated musicians.
We are for people like you 100%! I know I certainly am.
Old 10th January 2011
  #136
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Good luck to you friend.
I can relate. I've done a lot of touring and prefer writing and recording too.
I can't quite see how it'll be possible to earn a living just recording, if recordings become a freely shared item for everyone, and for good.
Maybe there is an answer. I can't quite see it.
I think what some of us here are hoping for is a way to hold onto the benefits many musicians have enjoyed in recent times, specifically - being able to earn money by recording, being able to earn money as a composer, NOT having to live at home.
People like us support the musician advocacy groups that have drawn a line in the sand and said the profession is threatened by widespread theft, and we should look at changing the conditions that allow widespread theft before we look at changing the conditions for dedicated musicians.
We are for people like you 100%! I know I certainly am.
Thanks. I didn't mean to get off on the wrong foot here, I want things to be fair just like everyone else. I just have a problem when I'm attacked and accused of saying things that I never actually said (not by you..), by someone who is supposed to be "looking out for the best interest of people 'like me'". I have been busting my ass for 10 years trying to be a serious independent musician. I'm no pro nor am I anywhere near the most experienced or knowledgeable person on this forum, and I will never pretend I am. But I am not a clueless little kid who has no idea what the world is like either. Doing what I've been doing has allowed me to experience some stuff that I thought was pretty neat and meet a lot of really talented people who are in a similar position as I am. It's draining at times but I wouldn't have it any other way really. I've done my research, I've made my decisions and I've chosen the path I feel is best for me. I also have some convictions I try to stick to, one of them is never let money take the fun out of music.

-Danny

ps. Best of luck to you as well. I hope everyone has an eventful and promising year!
Old 10th January 2011
  #137
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
I also have some convictions I try to stick to, one of them is never let money take the fun out of music.
That's a good one.
I have another one; never let yourself be taken advantage of.
Whether that's by being underpaid by a label or club owner, or by being not paid at all by someone who consumes my music.
Old 10th January 2011
  #138
Lives for gear
 
razorboy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple vista View Post
the wild west wasnt' wild forever and neither will the internet be...

If it is in fact working there, it might be looked at more seriously by other countries. I'm glad the French still have respect for the creative class.

The internet is indeed in the Wild West period of its evolution. Anyone who thinks that the status quo is here to stay, is incorrect. Law is just beginning to get with it. People will not be ripping off other people with impunity forever on the www.

Obama Administration Reportedly Plans to Create Internet ID for All Americans - FoxNews.com
Old 10th January 2011
  #139
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
That's a good one.
I have another one; never let yourself be taken advantage of.
Whether that's by being underpaid by a label or club owner, or by being not paid at all by someone who consumes my music.
I see your point. I went through a phase for about 2 years where I was the booker for all my own gigs, and was also booking gigs for countless others as well as hosting an open mic that was very popular. Being taken advantage of is ultimately why we stopped hosting the open mic. Staying independent is the reason I've never pursued a label. When it comes to the music though, I would rather someone care enough to steal my music than ignore it. Especially if it is digital, where the product they "steal" didn't cost me anything to make essentially. Of course it did in reality, but... I would do it if no one was listening or buying. So the real payoff to me is someone that cares. Money will never be before that, and if it was I would no longer call myself an artist.
Old 10th January 2011
  #140
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
When it comes to the music though, I would rather someone care enough to steal my music than ignore it.
Yeah, this is a fundamental difference between me and you, and one or two others here who share your view.
Does someone care about my work when they steal it?
My first reaction is no. If they cared they'd 'pay forward'. It's so cheap to buy a song, they'd at least hand over the price of a cup of coffee to support my endeavors.
Also, if you believe many on this forum, pirates often don't care what they download. They just download 'cos they can, and much of it music they neither like or care about.
With regards to my music software, I think it's the fact they care about owning and using it that makes them steal it.
That's simply taking advantage of me, and taking advantage of the many honest people who buy the product.
I have some self esteem. If I put a product out with a price attached, I only want people to buy it. That's a clear demonstration 'they care'. If they steal it, I don't really know why they've done it. All I know is they've virtually slapped me in the face and had a virtual chuckle as they walked away.
Old 10th January 2011
  #141
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yeah, this is a fundamental difference between me and you, and one or two others here who share your view.
Does someone care about my work when they steal it?
See... that difference, I don't see it as "stealing". Simply listening. That's also a major reason why I learned how to record myself. If I had to pay top studio rates for every song/musical idea I had then yeah, I'd probably see it differently. Now I have the ability to record music that is an artistic release, that has to live up to no expectations, as well as work on more "commercial" sounding 'jingle' type things all from the room where I spend most of my time.
Old 10th January 2011
  #142
If someone owns my music and they didn't buy it from me, it's not 'listening' it's stealing. How else am I going to sell anything?
I also have home recording.
In any case, you don't value your time or your unique ideas?
Your music isn't just the cost of a commercial studio.

I can't have any respect for someone who doesn't respect me.
Taking something without permission is showing a huge lack of respect.
Do I want those kind of people as fans? No.
Old 10th January 2011
  #143
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
If someone owns my music and they didn't buy it from me, it's not 'listening' it's stealing. How else am I going to sell anything?
I also have home recording.
In any case, you don't value your time or your unique ideas?
Your music isn't just the cost of a commercial studio.

I can't have any respect for someone who doesn't respect me.
Taking something without permission is showing a huge lack of respect.
Do I want those kind of people as fans? No.
Man I am not disagreeing with you. If you figure out how to accomplish all this while still maintaining the integrity of people who actually understand your music, then please send me a PM and explain.

The main problem I see, as a "so-called-artist", is that PEOPLE WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND UNIQUE IDEA'S (at first)... that is what makes them unique... There are still people out there that still care about unique ideas and artistic expression. Sometimes they may not have the money to buy your cd, but they will always appreciate your music, and will buy it when it is practical for them to do so. I just think we should cater to those people rather than try to forced feed it to a much larger group of people who may never 'get it'. As you've stated, those people don't care... why worry about them. It is time to build something new where people DO care.

-Danny
Old 10th January 2011
  #144
When I say 'unique ideas' I'm talking about all your recordings - as long as they aren't copied from other artists.
Every decision you make is unique to you - which guitar to use, what the drum part should be, how long the intro should be, the vocal melody, the lyrics etc....
If we both sat down to write a 3 minute song at 120bpm, 99.9 times my song would sound radically different to yours.
Not only that but you're not going to do the same thing twice.
Say you write the next 'Eleanor Rigby' which becomes a huge and sensational hit all over the world, and is still played everyday 20 years after you wrote it.
If you gave it away, you gained zero from that one unique idea, an idea (composition) you'll never be able to repeat.
That's why you should respect yourself and treasure your unique ideas.
Old 10th January 2011
  #145
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
Sometimes they may not have the money to buy your cd, but they will always appreciate your music, and will buy it when it is practical for them to do so. I just think we should cater to those people rather than try to forced feed it to a much larger group of people who may never 'get it'.
Like I keep saying, one of my neighbors has a great job, a nice home and a new car, and yet he downloads music illegally. Music he likes too.
Old 10th January 2011
  #146
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
See... that difference, I don't see it as "stealing". Simply listening. That's also a major reason why I learned how to record myself. If I had to pay top studio rates for every song/musical idea I had then yeah, I'd probably see it differently.

Now I have the ability to record music that is an artistic release, that has to live up to no expectations, as well as work on more "commercial" sounding 'jingle' type things all from the room where I spend most of my time.
see that's the thing... you can work in a shoe store and make all the art/music you want... that's cool.

but at some point in your life your going to have to figure out how to pay the bills... my guess is from your posts that you'd rather do that making music, than selling shoes, and that requires that people actually pay for the music they consume.

a lot of people here in these forums without having ever done so themselves, have a lot of things to say about those who actually pay their bills by being professionals

when paying your bills is dependent upon people paying for your work, you care a bit more whether they pay or not.

how much money are you willing to invest into your music career and let everyone else just take the benefit of your labor and investment?

I'm honestly curious how it makes sense in your head.
Old 10th January 2011
  #147
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
See... that difference, I don't see it as "stealing". Simply listening. That's also a major reason why I learned how to record myself. If I had to pay top studio rates for every song/musical idea I had then yeah, I'd probably see it differently. Now I have the ability to record music that is an artistic release, that has to live up to no expectations, as well as work on more "commercial" sounding 'jingle' type things all from the room where I spend most of my time.
Ande that's where you and I differ. If they don't want to pay for my work, fine. Don't listen to it except on prepaid channels like radio of ad supported streaming.

But if you want a copy of it to listen to on your own terms, pay me for it.

Is that so much to ask?

Don't take it without permission - that's STEALING.

Yeah, I know - that word made me uncomfortable too until I'd spent months and months debating freetards and trying to be nice while they just spouted more and more self-justifying crap.

If you want to give YOUR stuff away for free that's fine. But I'd advise against it. It gives the impression that your work has no value.
Old 10th January 2011
  #148
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitymusic View Post
Man I am not disagreeing with you. If you figure out how to accomplish all this while still maintaining the integrity of people who actually understand your music, then please send me a PM and explain.

The main problem I see, as a "so-called-artist", is that PEOPLE WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND UNIQUE IDEA'S (at first)... that is what makes them unique... There are still people out there that still care about unique ideas and artistic expression. Sometimes they may not have the money to buy your cd, but they will always appreciate your music, and will buy it when it is practical for them to do so. I just think we should cater to those people rather than try to forced feed it to a much larger group of people who may never 'get it'. As you've stated, those people don't care... why worry about them. It is time to build something new where people DO care.

-Danny
Are you kidding? Music is so cheap now that anyone who wants to buy your CD can afford it. A full album costs the same as a couple of burgers at McDonald's. Or one burger at many boutique burger joints.

Who said anything about "force feeding" music to anyone? You can't do that - they simply won't listen.

You have some very peculiar ideas.
Old 10th January 2011
  #149
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post

Don't take it without permission - that's STEALING.

Yeah, I know - that word made me uncomfortable too until I'd spent months and months debating freetards and trying to be nice while they just spouted more and more self-justifying crap.

If you want to give YOUR stuff away for free that's fine. But I'd advise against it. It gives the impression that your work has no value.
Just to make this clear... I was never justifying "stealing" music, for anyone else and certainly not myself. Just trying to brainstorm for new perspectives and ideas of how to make the best of a bad situation.

You've done an awful lot of implying that I am a criminal or somehow endorse this type of criminal behavior, when I am essentially on the same side as you. I am just at a different place in my life and career than established professionals so I have a different viewpoint of how it is really effecting me and what I can do about it. This most likely has no relevance to you, or anyone else that pays all their bills from music and has been doing so for years. I don't have the option of jumping on the same ship as all of you guys because that ship already sailed. Everyone is waiting for a new ship, but no one knows when it is coming or what it will be like. I am sure there will be opportunities for artists that arise out of something totally new in the near future. People who are new to the industry have to start watching out for those types of things, or creating them. I apologize if it offends you that piracy is not my biggest concern and I don't want to burn offenders at the stake nor preach to them. I see bigger problems, such as major record labels being too willing to sell people the same formula over and over again. IMO, that is devaluing music more than people downloading for free.

No one here is really trying to understand how I see it, I feel like I have a bunch of people standing at my door trying to convert me to seeing the light of god. That's fine, but, at least understand that I don't have to agree with you either.

-Danny
Old 10th January 2011
  #150
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Who said anything about "force feeding" music to anyone? You can't do that - they simply won't listen.

You have some very peculiar ideas.
By calling people thieves and seeing the whole issue in black and white, you are trying to force feed a monetary value you placed on music. It is sad that people don't value music anymore, but you have to help them to want to, not force them to.

I am a peculiar person.
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Rick Sanchez / Post Production forum
152
syoreed / Music Computers
43
mac black / Downloads, the future - Q+A forum with expert guests from CD Baby, Tunecore and Nimbit
15

Forum Jump
Forum Jump