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So now that Piracy is unstoppable... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 4th January 2011
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by spice house View Post
The fashion industry does not care about fakes at all
You are ill informed.

Quote:
People get all excited about it but really its a just a way for people to share music they like. Its not stealing, it's not 'piracy', it's copyright infringement - there is a big difference, we all know what it is.

Remember, in the end, obscurity is a greater threat to artists than piracy.
This is the better to have been loved once, than never loved at all argument.
Classic position of weakness.
Some people are so scared they wont be known, they're willing to give their stuff away.
If you had a guaranteed audience would you be so happy to give your music away? I highly doubt it.
So the less popular, more obscure elements in the music scene are trying to convince us the only way to get known is to let people take your work without paying.
Old 4th January 2011
  #32
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AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

Quote:
People get all excited about it but really its a just a way for people to share music they like. Its not stealing, it's not 'piracy', it's copyright infringement - there is a big difference, we all know what it is.
Your right, it IS copyright Infringement...
WHICH IS MUCH MUCH WORSE than stealing it...
Old 4th January 2011
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobius.media View Post
I don't think that's the point. The point is you'd need over 4 million streams a month on Spotify to make minimum wage.

If you're in a band, you'd need 16 million streams a month to keep all band members at the income level of burger flippers.

And that's before expenses.

Obviously spotify wouldn't be your only source of income as a band, but it shows how little in direct financial royalties it can realistically contribute.
Think about how many individual listener/plays on radio you need to make minimum wage.

16 million streams/month sounds like a lot but it really isn't, in context. A radio station in a market like NYC, LA, Dallas, etc might reach a quarter to a half million listeners at peak hours, per play. So sixteen million streams would be equivalent to getting 32 to 64 individual radio plays in a major market.
Old 4th January 2011
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post

the even larger problem is when people start looking to Spotify as a replacement for Record sales as opposed to what it really is... a replacement for Radio... sorta... not really. Radio doesn't grant instant access to whatever song you want.

So even as a replacement for Radio it's still questionable math as the "on demand" part is problematic. Thus far, I'd say Pandora has the best model of internet radio by tailoring to Genre tastes, without "on demand" by song.
Pandora is more "radio like".

As far as instant access goes, it could be argued as being good for the more popular artists. Which could be a good thing, or not depending who you are.
Old 4th January 2011
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by spice house View Post
Piracy is here to stay, we all know that! But it is no threat...

Has movie pirating killed the movie industry? no they're making more every year

The Numbers - Movie Market Summary 1995 to 2010

Then why have CD sales declined? because no one wants a damn CD, thats why we have itunes. People don't spend less on music now, they have more of it thanks to piracy.

washingtonpost.com: Study: File-Sharing No Threat to Music Sales

The fashion industry does not care about fakes at all, since they (smartly) have concluded that people who buy fake bags are not their target market (they wouldn't buy the expensive bags anyway).

Johanna Blakley: Lessons from fashion's free culture | Video on TED.com

People get all excited about it but really its a just a way for people to share music they like. Its not stealing, it's not 'piracy', it's copyright infringement - there is a big difference, we all know what it is.

Remember, in the end, obscurity is a greater threat to artists than piracy.
Hogwash.

You don't know what you're blathering about.

Please read the various threads in this section before posting the same old crap we've answered a zillion times already, I have to be somewhere in 10 minutes and don't have the time to waste on you right now.
Old 4th January 2011
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
sorta, not really... again... if the argument is that Spotify is Radio (which it's not) than maybe the economics make sense - if the argument Spotify is Retail (which it's not) the economics don't make sense at all.

the problem with Spotify is it devalues content in a way which is worse than piracy, because at least we know piracy is illegal for the lack of revenue.

Spotify on the other hand, just doesn't make sense at all unless 1) you are a consumer (yay!), or 2) you are looking to lose money/go out of business as a content creator (boo).
Old 4th January 2011
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Pandora is more "radio like".

As far as instant access goes, it could be argued as being good for the more popular artists. Which could be a good thing, or not depending who you are.
the only real question is... "does on demand access cannibalize paid downloads". I believe the answer to that question is YES which is why Spotify, nor apple's "cloud" or google's "music" are live services in the USA, as yet...

Why Subscription Services Can't and Won't Work...
Old 4th January 2011
  #39
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
actually they spend less because they get more illegally free from piracy.
Honestly, if you would just admit there are other things negatively impacting music sales, you could get everyone to agree with you.
Old 4th January 2011
  #40
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Honestly, if you would just admit there are other things negatively impacting music sales, you could get everyone to agree with you.
He's mentioned many things, piracy just happens to be the one he mentions the most...
Old 4th January 2011
  #41
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Id Ridden View Post
He's mentioned many things, piracy just happens to be the one he mentions the most...
I know, and I promise I won't beat this dead horse, but... the more honest people are, the more credibility they have. I think people who make that argument would have more credibility if they didn't make it look like the entire industry downturn is due to piracy. Heck, even those of us who are skeptical about the exact breakdown would be behind you.
Old 4th January 2011
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Honestly, if you would just admit there are other things negatively impacting music sales, you could get everyone to agree with you.
Honestly, if you would just admit Piracy is by far and away the #1 cause of declining sales, you could get everyone here to agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
I know, and I promise I won't beat this dead horse, but... the more honest people are, the more credibility they have. I think people who make that argument would have more credibility if they didn't make it look like the entire industry downturn is due to piracy. Heck, even those of us who are skeptical about the exact breakdown would be behind you.
Piracy is by far and away the #1 cause of declining sales, few, if any, rational, reasonable people would dispute that...

...or do you mean the more that people agree with your version of honesty, the more credibility they have with you?

I think if you could be more honest here, you would have more credibility!
Old 4th January 2011
  #43
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
I think if you could be more honest here, you would have more credibility!
I'm not the one trying to convince the guy he's wrong...
Old 4th January 2011
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
I'm not the one trying to convince the guy he's wrong...
Yeah, but I think the guy is totally wrong and I accept there are other negative forces impacting on the health of the music industry.
As always, the bottom line is you can't have people plundering the fruits of your labour, whether you are doing ok financially, or in a less healthy state due to other difficulties.
Why not discuss the actual realities rather than argue about people's personalities? This one believes that, that one believes this.
We* all basically agree piracy is having a major impact on creative people. Other than that we have varying opinions about some other issues, like any sensible group of individuals.

*'We' being the people on this forum you usually disagree with.
Old 4th January 2011
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdss View Post
What are you gonna do?

Kids aren't gonna stop downloading music illegally.

Even if the music industry and the government worked together to crack down on piracy there's always gonna be some computer nerd out there that would risk the jail time if they could be the one to discover away around it.

Now what?
According to some theories, the people who are still making money from music nowadays are the tech companies, ISPs etc.
I think the solution also lays with technology. I reckon a worm that infects MP3 players is required. Once infected the MP3 decoder kills, scrables or otherwise renders the MP3 unplayable.
This would render the ripping of CDs useful for one play but people would still rely on their original recording. It would also get rid of inferior quality playback sources (MP3s) as the preferred medium.
Infect WinAmp, Media Players etc... anything that has a MP3 decoder.

Pay a hacker, team of worm makers. Eliminate the problem and bring back quality formats as the predominant force in music.
Old 4th January 2011
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrakarl View Post
According to some theories, the people who are still making money from music nowadays are the tech companies, ISPs etc.
I think the solution also lays with technology. I reckon a worm that infects MP3 players is required. Once infected the MP3 decoder kills, scrables or otherwise renders the MP3 unplayable.
This would render the ripping of CDs useful for one play but people would still rely on their original recording. It would also get rid of inferior quality playback sources (MP3s) as the preferred medium.
Infect WinAmp, Media Players etc... anything that has a MP3 decoder.

Pay a hacker, team of worm makers. Eliminate the problem and bring back quality formats as the predominant force in music.
piracy is damaging but resorting to tactics like that are IMO horrible and immoral and as they say two wrongs don't make a right.
Old 4th January 2011
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Honestly, if you would just admit there are other things negatively impacting music sales, you could get everyone to agree with you.
If you would just admit that's a load of crap perhaps more knowledgeable people would believe in you.
Old 4th January 2011
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrakarl View Post
According to some theories, the people who are still making money from music nowadays are the tech companies, ISPs etc.
I think the solution also lays with technology. I reckon a worm that infects MP3 players is required. Once infected the MP3 decoder kills, scrables or otherwise renders the MP3 unplayable.
This would render the ripping of CDs useful for one play but people would still rely on their original recording. It would also get rid of inferior quality playback sources (MP3s) as the preferred medium.
Infect WinAmp, Media Players etc... anything that has a MP3 decoder.

Pay a hacker, team of worm makers. Eliminate the problem and bring back quality formats as the predominant force in music.
Sadly, that's illegal.
Old 4th January 2011
  #49
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jupiter8's Avatar
 

The only thing that i've seen that even makes a dent is Spotify. You can argue all day that they pay bad but that is not the issue. That could change,it is not the problem. The thing Spotify has going for it is that it is a technically superiour alternative to piracy. People prefer it to illegally downloading mp3s and that is the only way forward. There is no other way,you must make it preferable to piracy somehow.

A few years back when i was at the University there was a computer brimful with mp3s that everyone listened to,a few years later they used Spotify instead. Why ? It wasn't because of guilty conscious because no one gave a flying **** about piracy (ironic in a bunch of aspiring programmers,i know) but because it was more convenient. That is what i'm most impressed by Spotify is that they beat the pirates at their own game. That they pay bad is a minor point and can be rectified.
Old 4th January 2011
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiter8 View Post
The only thing that i've seen that even makes a dent is Spotify. You can argue all day that they pay bad but that is not the issue. That could change,it is not the problem. The thing Spotify has going for it is that it is a technically superiour alternative to piracy. People prefer it to illegally downloading mp3s and that is the only way forward. There is no other way,you must make it preferable to piracy somehow.

A few years back when i was at the University there was a computer brimful with mp3s that everyone listened to,a few years later they used Spotify instead. Why ? It wasn't because of guilty conscious because no one gave a flying **** about piracy (ironic in a bunch of aspiring programmers,i know) but because it was more convenient. That is what i'm most impressed by Spotify is that they beat the pirates at their own game. That they pay bad is a minor point and can be rectified.
it's not that they pay "bad"... "bad" would be paying HALF of what itunes pays... but Spotify isn't really paying anything...

the bottom line is the bottom line. people need to be paid. maybe you don't need to be paid?

I don't know how much you get paid to do what you do, but could you still do it if you were paid 1 penny for every dollar you now make? Well, Spotify pays less than that... it doesn't work.
Old 4th January 2011
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
I'm not the one trying to convince the guy he's wrong...
could have fooled me but let's see, so then you are finally stopping this nonsense and admitting that piracy is the #1 cause, by far, for the decline in recorded music sales - or are you going to start trying to do some convincing of your own?

always a double standard, and always amusing.
Old 4th January 2011
  #52
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RonT's Avatar
 

It's horrible! Even for studio owners like myself. I get sessions from people that havn't got a clue as to how to mix and they have Expensive plugs strapped all over the inserts. Dude, you got a lexicon on the click?

Using DAWs like Nuendo and Radio Shack mics into a built-in sound card! WTF is wrong with that picture?

I get guys asking to pay for sessions by offering the lastest cracked software.

Salespeople at GC offering a package deal of plug-ins downloaded to DVD!?!?!?

People less and less invovled in music creation for a living becuase they know that people are just going to steel the music.

Hardly any work from labels and artist on a budget.

WTF?????? WTF?????? How do we make it?????

Seems like we are forced to bring the live experience back and work our asses off to make a dollar. We have to market, market, market. Should it be this hard? Hell no! Do we love music? Hell Yeah! What do we do? We keep making music! We just have to find other ways of making money doing it. Piracy is Piracy and it is not going anywhere anytime soon.

People do it becuase they can and are demoralized to their evil doings. Slavery was execpted by many........didn't make it right......
Old 4th January 2011
  #53
Gear Maniac
 

What do you think matters more?

Some piray in the music industry.

or

The polar ice caps melting.


Politicians have 9999999 more issues to deal with, and that's just the personal ones these days it seems!
Old 4th January 2011
  #54
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claend's Avatar
 

Some kind of service similar to Spotify could work in my opinion. No free accounts, a fair price for the consumer, wav quality, millions of users around the world and a fair pay for artists (regulated by law?).

Not saying it should be the only way of income for artists though...


Cheers
Old 4th January 2011
  #55
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jupiter8's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
it's not that they pay "bad"... "bad" would be paying HALF of what itunes pays... but Spotify isn't really paying anything...

the bottom line is the bottom line. people need to be paid. maybe you don't need to be paid?

I don't know how much you get paid to do what you do, but could you still do it if you were paid 1 penny for every dollar you now make? Well, Spotify pays less than that... it doesn't work.
That isn't the question now is it ? The question is can you still do what you do and get payed nothing ?

EDIT: Or are you saying that there's some inherent technological problem that prevents Spotify to pay the artists because i can assure you it isn't. It is entirely possible.
Old 4th January 2011
  #56
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yeah, but I think the guy is totally wrong and I accept there are other negative forces impacting on the health of the music industry.
Yes, and we are on the same page with that. My point though is being honest and objective about the industry problems (as you are above) gives you credibility. It doesn't take a genius to see that there are other factors. When it appears someone is in denial (which is obvious to just about everyone when they say it's the only factor) then they really don't have much credibility and just seems like an industry spokesperson.

Quote:
Why not discuss the actual realities rather than argue about people's personalities?
What I'm trying to do is come up with most effective positioning possible to make the arguments more compelling.

Quote:
We* all basically agree piracy is having a major impact on creative people.
Yes "we" do.
Old 4th January 2011
  #57
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by booob View Post
What do you think matters more?

Some piray in the music industry.

or

The polar ice caps melting.


Politicians have 9999999 more issues to deal with, and that's just the personal ones these days it seems!
Piracy in the music industry, obviously.... geez.

In the billions of years of this Planets so called existence are you telling me it has never, ever, ever seen climate fluctuations?? You have evidence to prove this yes?
Old 4th January 2011
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiter8 View Post
That isn't the question now is it ? The question is can you still do what you do and get payed nothing ?
can you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiter8 View Post
EDIT: Or are you saying that there's some inherent technological problem that prevents Spotify to pay the artists because i can assure you it isn't. It is entirely possible.
as far as I know greed is not a technological issue
Old 4th January 2011
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakotajones View Post
because the real money comes from concert sales.
prove it.

I guess touring isn't going to save music . . .

More... Touring is(n't) going to save music.
Old 4th January 2011
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakotajones View Post
i would imagine bands that give their albums away are doing it, because a) there's no real money in cd's and music downloads for the artist anymore - they get a small percentage compared to the record companies...and b) it's so they can get their name and music out there to more people, because the real money comes from concert sales.
There's a huge body of music created neither by bands, or by touring acts.
If the 'real money' comes from touring, we're going to end up with a musical monoculture - which is hardly progress.
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