The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
What is the REAL cause of the music industry downturn?? Channel Strip Plugins
Old 30th December 2010
  #1
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

What is the REAL cause of the music industry downturn??

A good read here: The recession in the music industry – a cause analysis « Music Business Research I've posted this in another thread, but the information deserves a thread of its own.
Old 30th December 2010
  #2
I dissected it in the other thread.
Again, largely (and sadly) derived from data sources small (1200 Canadians phone polled) and pre 2005.
If anyone thinks there has not been a revolution in downloading over the last 5+ years, they need to do more research.

For me the clear leader in the downturn of sales is piracy.
Competing interests such as electronic gadgets, social networking, general global recession and some over supply have all contributed.
If piracy wasn't occurring, the music industry would be doing it tough (in the way it has occasionally in the past), with piracy we're seeing a c change in the way musicians can earn a living - with the successful musos stepping down a level, and the lower levels dropping out of the system.
Old 30th December 2010
  #3
A: the REAL cause of the music industry downturn is PIRACY... duh.

dude, you're funny that you would post this is the piracy forum and not the music business forum... I think this is the same goofball who reported that "piracy increases sales"... unfortunately, there's ZERO data to support that one!

here's some info...
Dispute Over File Sharing's Harm to Music Sales Plays Again - Wired Campus - The Chronicle of Higher Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
A good read here: The recession in the music industry – a cause analysis « Music Business Research I've posted this in another thread, but the information deserves a thread of its own.
the cause, is piracy and no amount of propaganda will change that.

BPI: 1.2 billion illegal music downloads in 2010 a record

but more to your point specifically...

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
If you read the link, you would see a clear impact on music in the worldwide economic recession of late 70's. Funny, though, as you are the first one to accuse others of only seeing what they want to see..
it's a non-issue, I'll chart those numbers against the graph below and we'll see how it looks... there's a brief two year dip, and then a massive rebound, and that's before the introduction CD's...

here's your numbers... where exactly is that 60% drop again prior to the year 2000?



something tells me what we're experiencing now is unprecedented and the numbers provided there will bare this out. looks like that 60% drop starting in 2000... along with expanding illegal downloading...



and of course if we're talking about economics now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Continuing on... taking your belief that the music industry is immune to global economics, have a look at this:

Continuing after the graph:

Pretty interesting stuff.
this is interesting as well... prior to piracy the record industry was largely immune to economic downturns, and some genres even grew (metal & punk for example)

let's look at the robust stability of low cost items during a recession.

songs are 99 cents, less than ONE dollar, less than the cost of a candy bar in many cases.

low ticket items are the most recession proof, the larger ticket items take the hit first, and remain effected - housing, cars, durable goods like appliances... etc.

hershey's stock price has almost doubled in the past 10 years... the music industry has lost half it's revenue, guess which one is being pirated and which one is not?

Hersey Stock Nov 8 2000 = 26.00
Hershey Stock Nov 8 2010 = 48.46

music, cheaper than a candy bar and last's a lifetime...

Also if we were to look at the share price and market cap of Apple over the last decade we would also find an increase and not a decrease of those high ticket priced products which are also not pirated and distributed as easy as a Google search.

The economic truth is, the money is out there if the product is not available illegally free, and consequence free.

Funny thing is, if you look at who's REALLY been making money in the last decade, they seem to be profiting from the availability of free content to drive their goods (Apple) and services (ISP's, Google, Etc).

Who's Really Destroying Music? Take a Closer Look...
Old 30th December 2010
  #4
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

So many words but so little to say. OK.

You: DUH! Napster and the industry downturn happened at the SAME TIME so of course they are related!!

Quote:
However, the figures also showed that the Japanese market, the second most important market in the world, already suffered an 8.2% loss of CD sales between 1997 and 1999, but that it was up by 7.9% in 2000. In Japan sales were in decline even before the onset of NAPSTER, which industry representatives would probably explain by pointing to the emerging practice of ripping and burning CDs. For the French market no such simple explanations work. In 2001, an historic high of CD sales was measured before the recession startet in 2002, when the hype around NAPSTER was already history. However, since it is not very realictic to assume that French music consumers had not been aware of how to obtain music for free over the net until 2002, it can safely be assumed that they used NAPSTER as avidly as did consumers in other countries. Similarily, it cannot be explained why the UK-market – after a minus of 17.7% from 2000 to 2001 –was able to hold its sales level in subsequent years, despite the emergence of new P2P-filesharing systems. From 2003 to 2004 one could even observe an increase of 4.4%. In the UK, the first strong sales slumps took place only in 2007. Thus, there are empirical anomalies that put the “filesharing-thesis” into question.
Nothing you have posted explains why this is incorrect.

You: The music industry is largely unaffected by economic downturn.

Quote:
The continuing boom in the phonographic industry in nearly all markets came to a sudden end in the late 1970s. Especially the UK-market was hit particularly hard. Between 1977 and 1980, sales of recorded music decreased by 26.4%. In the United States the units sold declined 10.4% from 1978 to 1979, which amounted to a value-based sales drop of 11.0%. In France 8.3% less recorded music was sold between 1978 and 1980. Only in Germany and Japan sales declines were moderate with 3.4% (1978-1980) and 2.2% (1977-1978), respectively. But the recession hit the middle and small markets particularily hard. In Denmark, the sales of recorded music slumped 29,4% in 1980 compared to the previous year. In Austria the decline in sales was also serious with a minus of 13.8% from 1978 to 1979. There was hardly a country in the Western Hemisphere where recorded music sales decreased by less than 10% (Table 1).

At the time, reports blamed the decline in recorded music sales on the world-wide recession triggered by the second oil crisis as well as the competition with other media on the one hand and, on the other hand, on privately copying music onto audio cassettes. But even contemporary authors considered these explanations insufficient. Thus, Pekka Gronow suspected in 1983 in a scientific paper in the journal of Popular Music: “Explanation has been sought in the general economic recession, the influence of private copying, and competition from other media. But perhaps records, as a mass medium, have now reached the saturation point.” (p 72). He made the point pretty well, as can be demonstrated by the subsequent analysis of sales figures for the global market of recorded music.
No 60% of course... maybe because the economic recession wasn't as bad as today?

You: Piracy is the biggest factor in the downturn

Quote:
But the ability to offer music tracks online over the Internet rendered this business model obsolete. The figures show that in recent years the album market turned back into a single market. While in 2008 global CD sales had already declined below the level of 1993, single-sales, due to exploding digital downloads, prospered while sales of digital albums grew slowly. Since 2004, when digital sales were reported for the first time, single sales more than quadrupled (!) to 1.5 billion units, whereas the amount of digital albums sold in the same year only comes to 113 million units. If we now compare all long-play formats (excluding music videos) with the single formats, we can see that as many long-play products (1.51 billion units) were sold as single products (1.49 billion units).

It is clear that you cannot earn the same revenue with the same number of single units than with long-play units sold. Therefore the drop in sales is due to the conversion of an album to a single market. File-sharing can be interpreted in this context not as a cause but as a symptom of the digital revolution in the music industry. However, it should not be overlooked that the current developments (a cultural paradigm shift in the music industry and not only there) go well beyond the question of file-sharing or single- vs. album market conversion. Thus, one should not commit the error to replace one simplified explanation (blame file-sharing for the decline in record sales) with another (pointing to the transformation of the album- to a single market), because the paradigm shift is much more complex than the suggested explanations (see Tschmuck 2006). However, the “single market”-thesis contributes a much better explanation for the declining sales in the recording industry than the “filesharing” thesis.
I would love it if you would look at the above and debunk the logic.
Old 30th December 2010
  #5
Well firstly, and in the main, most of the research on which he bases the blog is completely out of date and quite irrelevant (again!).
He credits these research papers time and time again in his blog, including at the end.
Seriously - this is remarkable research based on studies from 2004/2005 and a phone poll of 1200 Canadians?

I think the research into CD sales is a complete red herring. Research into album sales is also largely redundant.
Yes, of course people buy single tracks (not 'singles') these days.
Are people buying as much, and spending as much? That is the true question.
It's not my experience they are. Likewise it doesn't make sense to me either. If large amounts of single tracks are available free (illegally), why would large amounts of people buy them.
Tschmuck (unfortunate name), mentions several times the claim that illegal downloads lead to increased sales. I haven't seen any evidence to prove that, other than polls of downloaders who say they buy more. Well they would have an interest in claiming to buy content wouldn't they.
Old 30th December 2010
  #6
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Red herring, and besides you're not paying attention to the argument. The recession is in the '70s so newer data wouldn't help. The napster argument is from the late 90's and early 00's so again, newer data is not relevant.

Finally, the data he used includes one study from 2009 and two from 2007.

There is no possibility of you actually agreeing with ANY data that contradicts your belief, I get it.
Old 30th December 2010
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post

Finally, the data he used includes one study from 2009 and two from 2007.
You are NOT reading your own propaganda. Yes, the study from 2009 is relevant and welcome, although as I posted in your other thread they admit there are something like 7+ downloads for every track paid for in The Netherlands, then this study goes on to claim downloads are fueling music sales, based I think on what the downloaders told them when asked.

The two 2007 studies are solely based on data from 2004/05!!!!!!

Quote:
Oberholzer and Strumpf (2004), actually 2002!
Quote:
conducted on a file sharing server, described in more detail later in the paper, over 11/23/02-12/2/02. 159 users completed the survey.
Next up Tschmuck cites 'Blackburn'
Quote:
In this study, Neilsen SoundScan applied what amounts to a difference-in-differences estimator to measure the changes in music sales
between 1997 and 2000 in areas around college campuses.......
Next up Andersen and Frenz.
Their charts all date to 2005
Old 30th December 2010
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post

There is no possibility of you actually agreeing with ANY data that contradicts your belief, I get it.
There is NO DAAAAAAATA!
Old 30th December 2010
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Red herring, and besides you're not paying attention to the argument. The recession is in the '70s so newer data wouldn't help. The napster argument is from the late 90's and early 00's so again, newer data is not relevant.

Finally, the data he used includes one study from 2009 and two from 2007.

There is no possibility of you actually agreeing with ANY data that contradicts your belief, I get it.
dude - stop it already, you look foolish enough...

here's your data, plotted and graphed...



the years correspond to excel row numbers, the graph represents 36 years of data 1973 - 2008.

Excel graphed the years as follows:

1973 is plot point "1"

1979 is plot point "7"

2008 is plot point "36"



so it looks like the "economy" really isn't that big of a factor after all, looking at 36 years of data...
Old 30th December 2010
  #10
Lives for gear
 
lord_bunny's Avatar
 

Piracy and competition from other entertainment sources.

When my dad was a kid the most immersive experience at home was headphones and rock and roll albums. You had to go to the movies to watch a movie and at home he had only a handful of channels.

Now Paramore has to compete with Avatar and xbox360.... so it's not just piracy.

Look at how many albums we're released in North America in 1977 and compare that to now. So much of the "industry" isn't accounted for because it's so fractured and the mainstream part of the industry's share of the market keeps decreasing while indie stuff is becoming a super monster long tail where nothing sells in quantity but the sheer number of releases keeps increasing.

It's all three factors and more. It's not just piracy, but such a huge part of it is.

I honestly can't wait until publishing, movies, music and everything else suffers to the point where we can actively persue a consistent legal detterance... it boggles the mind that I can't go to my convenience store and just walk out with an arm load of goods, and yet people get to do it everyday online. I know so many people young and old who legitamately have no shame in pirating and feel entitled to every bit of culture they can steal.
Old 30th December 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Neenja's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_bunny View Post
Piracy and competition from other entertainment sources.

When my dad was a kid the most immersive experience at home was headphones and rock and roll albums. You had to go to the movies to watch a movie and at home he had only a handful of channels.

Now Paramore has to compete with Avatar and xbox360.... so it's not just piracy.

Look at how many albums we're released in North America in 1977 and compare that to now. So much of the "industry" isn't accounted for because it's so fractured and the mainstream part of the industry's share of the market keeps decreasing while indie stuff is becoming a super monster long tail where nothing sells in quantity but the sheer number of releases keeps increasing.

It's all three factors and more.

Don't forget the effect of falling catalog sales. How many times are people going to be willing to buy DSotM before they've hard enough?
Old 30th December 2010
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
There is NO DAAAAAAATA!
Unfortunate choice of smiley there, Chris.

I'm in the "anti-piracy" camp. I'm bringing up my children the same way. It helps that they both know people in, and have some small experience in, the creation of music and films. They can see their friends affected by piracy.

So I'm "on your side", although it doesn't always seem like it. But when you make statements like the above, with what looks like a "one eyed" icon, I just shake my head and move on to the next post.
Old 30th December 2010
  #13
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

LP sales:

1977 - 898 million
1978 - 942 million
1979 - 896 million
1980 - 878 million
1981 - 1140 million

Obviously, the recession of the 70's doesn't compare with the recession of today.

I'd love to look back at earlier recessions, but I don't have the data.
Old 30th December 2010
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_bunny View Post
Now Paramore has to compete with Avatar and xbox360.... so it's not just piracy.
in the 80s music was competing with VHS, Beta, Home Video and Video Games and sales grew - these were new introductions to the market place and could have caused the same disruption.

in the 90s music was competing with DVDs, More video games, Cell Phones, Personal Computers and new charges for internet services and sales grew - these were new introductions to the market place and could have caused the same disruption.

piracy is by far and away the #1 cause of the decline in pre-recorded music sales everything else maybe totals 10% combined...
Old 30th December 2010
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

What a dumb topic.

99% of what gets radio play is crap.

Dumb love songs by kids who aren't old enough to have fallen in love.

Anything that's mildly political or critical of the status quo won't get touched by mainstream media.

But we'll hear tired country songs about the the hard working family man ad nauseum.

the Beatles are finally on iTunes!!! Who gives a crap?!?!?!

Radio stations are run by accountants. Record labels are run by accountants.

The only thing not run by accountants are small. smaller venues to hear live music. Run by people who love music. Small recording studios. Run by people who love making music. Local music festivals where bands are invited by the quality of their music alone.

Guess where quality music is still happening. In your local clubs and coffee houses.
Old 30th December 2010
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
LP sales:

1977 - 898 million
1978 - 942 million
1979 - 896 million
1980 - 878 million
1981 - 1140 million

Obviously, the recession of the 70's doesn't compare with the recession of today.

I'd love to look back at earlier recessions, but I don't have the data.
this is what I see from the data you provided - looks like pretty steady growth until the turn of the century.



and again - it looks like the "economy" really isn't that big of a factor after all, looking at 36 years of data...
Old 30th December 2010
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_bunny View Post
It's all three factors and more. It's not just piracy, but such a huge part of it is.
I couldn't agree more.

Quote:
I honestly can't wait until publishing, movies, music and everything else suffers to the point where we can actively persue a consistent legal detterance...
I do believe they already are suffering enough.
Creative people rarely want to get involved in politics though. Journalists and photographers want to report the story, not b the story.
I think everyone is looking at each other and hoping someone will dive in to the fray.
Old 30th December 2010
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatgtrguy View Post
Guess where quality music is still happening. In your local clubs and coffee houses.
I certainly hope so.
I've got to say my local clubs and coffee houses play recorded music, or more likely show sports on big screen tv's. Not a lot of real musicians visible.
Old 30th December 2010
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Unfortunate choice of smiley there, Chris.
But when you make statements like the above, with what looks like a "one eyed" icon, I just shake my head and move on to the next post.
The one-eyed icon is there because I have posted that there is no reliable data dozens of times this year. I've specifically posted that in response to Psalad, who continues to cherry pick his data, preferring his blog based text (usually dating from 2005 or earlier) over industry data.
I think you misrepresent me, because in saying there is no reliable data, I'm admitting the industry data can be questioned (due to it's lack of transparency in method) as well as the data Psalad loves, characterized by small samples dating back more than 5 years.
I fail to see what's so despicable about the position I hold.
Old 30th December 2010
  #20
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

The point in ALL of this isn't to say piracy isn't a problem, I'm not saying I agree with all this data exactly as presented.

I'm saying, regardless of your insistence that everything is OBVIOUS, that piracy is 100% responsible for the downturn, that piracy is the MAIN reason for the downturn, etc, the point is THERE ARE other opinions that are equally valid. There are other factors, whether you guys agree with the numbers or not. This isn't about me, as much as you want to make it personal.

The beautiful thing about this for Chris is this guy has specialized in analyzing the music industry. I'm sure it's still not good enough... but really.. whatever, right?

For the record Don, I'm in the anti-piracy camp as well. Everyone pays for their content in my house.
Old 30th December 2010
  #21
soulstudios
Guest
2009:
"The empirical reality of file sharing is described
using data collected during interviews with heavy file sharers as well as data from a
representative survey of 1,500 internet users in the Netherlands."

I'm sorry, but ASKING people what their habits are is not, in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, 'empirical research'. Empirical research would be analyzing their download and music buying patterns without prior knowledge, ie. so they don't consciously or subconsciously modify their behaviour in relation to being studied.


2007:
"Among Canadians who engage in P2P file-sharing, our results suggest that for every
12 P2P downloaded songs, music purchases increase by 0.44 CDs."

... by that logic the sales of CDs should be close to infinity by this point in time. Why do people never do the Math?

(can't read the other 2007 one as it's pay-per-view, but it appears to be based on the faulty logic of the 2004 papers)
Old 30th December 2010
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
T
I'm saying, regardless of your insistence that everything is OBVIOUS, that piracy is 100% responsible for the downturn, that piracy is the MAIN reason for the downturn, etc, the point is THERE ARE other opinions that are equally valid.
Maybe one or two people are saying piracy is 100% responsible. Not me, nor the many well known musicians campaigning against illegal downloads.

Quote:
The beautiful thing about this for Chris is this guy has specialized in analyzing the music industry. I'm sure it's still not good enough... but really.. whatever, right?
I'm not knocking it off without doing the leg work though mate.
Please tell me why a blog based almost entirely on research pre-2005 is good enough? Please tell me, specific analysis, not excuses.
Old 30th December 2010
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by soulstudios View Post

I'm sorry, but ASKING people what their habits are is not, in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM



... by that logic the sales of CDs should be close to infinity by this point in time. Why do people never do the Math?

(can't read the other 2007 one as it's pay-per-view, but it appears to be based on the faulty logic of the 2004 papers)
Bingo. thumbsupthumbsup
Thank you. Someone gets it.
Old 30th December 2010
  #24
I walk into my local convenience store to buy a cup of coffee and there's a big screen over the counter, blaring some kind of "news" reporting... I stop to get gas on the interstate, the same thing at the gas pumps, a screen with perky weather anchors and animated ads for coffee at the nearest convenience store...

I try to explain to my kids this is all new, the fact they can hop onto the Internet and find the world at their fingertips... and I say one thing that's really different is: when you used to see something "printed," like in a font and all, it was something "official," like a newspaper headline or a billboard or an advertising flyer, it had gone through some kind of review or some kind of channel-- but nowadays, anyone can type anything into their computer and presto-chango, it appears in a font of your choice and there is no "system" to make its way through, no "approval process" and no "gatekeeping."

And I think this is a useful metaphor for the plague of piracy-- the systems of old have been subverted by this technological revolution we've been witnesses to-- and trying to re-establish the controls of old, that everyone took for granted and accepted as part of life on Earth... that's the challenge right there.
Old 30th December 2010
  #25
Lives for gear
 
lord_bunny's Avatar
 

I talked to a friend who had worked in Toronto in publishing. I can't believe how fast piracy of books has spread already. We both ended up back in Sarnia to do our thing. It's really hard to board the titanic while it sinks.

I can see the point that there has always been competition for everyone's entertainment dollar and that we can see that piracy is hitting ANYTHING that can be stolen digitally but I feel that any content that isn't tied to a gizmo will be pirated and that because people can pirate, the sales of these gizmos has flourished as a result. Not everyone would have an xbox360 if they had to pay for every record they had.

So it's a circular argument in one sense, but in another sense.... my cell phone, television and internet package is stupid expensive. I could buy at least 20 albums a month if I didn't have those expenses. Anyone have the data on what basic cable and a land line cost per month in 87?

So these expenses have gained traction as part of our daily lives because part of our daily lives has also become stealing T.V., books, music etc... It's all connected.

I think it was Joel P who said it was like Christmas every god damned day. I think this also has something to do with it. We are exposed to SO MUCH good stuff on a constant basis that people are numb, numb to a good song, numb to the reality of what it costs to put a good production together etc.

If we could get the experience of driving a fast car for free from the net, fast cars would be considered worthless as well. But it's rareified. So it isn't.

Music for me is like heroin, but I'm like an old junky now... it's hard to find a good vein. I think most North Americans feel the same. Even if it isn't all crap it just all feels like crap because of the embarassing abundance of content.

The only way to get people to pay for it again is to take it away from them, and that isn't going to happen. Governments love spending money on the war on drugs... it's hard for people to get away with growing their own weed and anyone caught by their neigbours is likely to get reported.

I don't see how you can ever make content rarefied ever again. I hate Ayn Rand, but I do forsee an "Atlas Shrugged" point where people just stop bothering to create content for anyone else's consumption.
Old 30th December 2010
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_bunny View Post
I don't see how you can ever make content rarefied ever again.
Widely available and over saturated music we can take. Yeah, it's evolution.
Widespread theft........ no.
It creates an unfair situation when competing with other interests.
Old 31st December 2010
  #27
On the other hand, the sale of Santa Claus lawn ornaments may well hit record highs...?
Old 31st December 2010
  #28
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I certainly hope so.
I've got to say my local clubs and coffee houses play recorded music, or more likely show sports on big screen tv's. Not a lot of real musicians visible.
That's because the videos / sports are cheaper and less trouble for the owners. (how come there's no "unhappy /depressed" smilie available?)
Old 31st December 2010
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
The point in ALL of this isn't to say piracy isn't a problem, I'm not saying I agree with all this data exactly as presented.

I'm saying, regardless of your insistence that everything is OBVIOUS, that piracy is 100% responsible for the downturn, that piracy is the MAIN reason for the downturn, etc, the point is THERE ARE other opinions that are equally valid. There are other factors, whether you guys agree with the numbers or not. This isn't about me, as much as you want to make it personal.
there are two data sets that are pretty consistent regardless of source:

1) the staggering volume of illegal consumption ranges from 10x's to 20x's that of paid consumption

2) the staggering 60% drop in revenue/sales of paid legitimate music consumption during the same time frame

A reasonable person would conclude that these two factors are in fact related, that when there happens to be a growth in illegally free, there happens to be a corresponding drop in legally paid.

There is really no scientific way to find the exact number of sales that are lost except to look at the exact number of sales that are factually declining during this period. Those are real numbers, real losses.

For those who are intellectually dishonest, or intentionally obtuse due to personal bias there will never be an argument good enough to connect these two data sets - despite it being clearly obvious that one is effecting the other.

Everyone can pretty much see that because the illegal consumption is so staggeringly beyond the scope of what paid consumption ever was it's mostly likely the case that every illegal download is not a lost sale.

But I also believe that it's fairly obvious, that sales should have either remained flat or seen modest growth due the unprecedented size, scale and opportunities of legitimate digital distribution not the least of which is 500+ Million points of sales (Since 2007), instant availability to the largest music inventory ever, and at the lowest price point per album in history for frontline product, and even the ability to consumer songs at 99 cents each.

Intellectually dishonest staw man arguments and red herrings ultimately do not change any of these facts that are reported from sources as varied as The Wall Street Journal, CNN and Torrentfreak... lol.
Old 31st December 2010
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
...
I fail to see what's so despicable about the position I hold.
Point accepted. To be fair, I should point out that psalad's "it isn't current, but it's the best we have" elicits the same response in me.
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
smccarthy945 / Music Business
1
ecsound / So much gear, so little time
9

Forum Jump
Forum Jump