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How to make kids (and others) understand?? Condenser Microphones
Old 1st January 2011
  #91
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
That's not at all true in my opinion. People steal music because they can get away with it with no repercussions. You can't just magically guilt people into buying music without establishing any concrete penalties. The only time in the history of the world something like that has worked is when religion has convinced people to believe in supernatural penalties.
Cool! thumbsup

Although if you would have kept reading, you would have run into this bit:

Quote:
If you can't accept these as axioms, feel free to leave this thread now...........
This discussion was meant to be based on the axioms stated, whether fact or not.
There's a dozen other threads here that are trying to establish the actual "why".
Old 1st January 2011
  #92
Uuuh, I'm gonna have to look up 'axiom' now.
Old 1st January 2011
  #93
Lives for gear
 

The only thing more futile than trying to "educate" kids about piracy is trying to dictate who can or can't reply to your thread and what we may or may not say. If you say something dumb you're going to get called on it. But go ahead and keep on tilting at windmills.
Old 1st January 2011
  #94
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
"What gives", soundrick, is you have let others define and judge me because of a disagreement. Whatever.
LOL

I'm sorry man, no one else has "defined" you. You're doing that yourself.

One doesn't even have to follow these threads, they could just look at your previous posts list and figure it out.

No sir, I think for myself, have been for quite a few years now. It's working out OK for me.........
Old 1st January 2011
  #95
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWP View Post
Mr. Eppstein, would you please so be kind to give me/us an example of a recording that shows the difference, before and after, that a professional producer has produced a better than competent performance out of the singer. It would a least give me a reference point for the benefits of hiring
a professional producer.

Thanks,
MWP
I'd like to, but most bands don't want their pre-production demos released to the public.

This is a hard one - if you haven't had the opportunity to watch a real producer work in the studio it's very difficult to communicate the benefits. Many great producers spend most of their time sitting around appearing to do nothing, but they manage to come up with just the right thing at the right time to inspire the artist to transcend himself. And a producer who is perfect for one artist may be terrible for another. Some producers aren't even there - except when they need to be. Others are more hands-on.

In Mixerman's new book "Zen and the Art of Mixing" he has some good comments about producers.

The best way to really understand it though is to get a gig as an assistant to one. Or even as a gopher for a band working with one.

If I had a chance (and I'm not a great producer, although I know a bit about the art I've mostly been an engineer) to work with the artist in the recording that Joel posted I'd bet money that I could get a performance out of that singer that would just scorch that performance to ashes. I can just hear so much that she has that she didn't give there......
Old 1st January 2011
  #96
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
This is a hard one - if you haven't had the opportunity to watch a real producer work in the studio it's very difficult to communicate the benefits.
I agree with soundrick it can be a double edged sword, but on balance I say producers help way more often than they destroy.
And I've seen artists who record themselves, 'produce' themselves, totally unwilling to edit themselves. So the guitar solo that goes on 30 seconds too long stays in. The slightly dodgy vocal passage stays in. The basic drum machine pattern the artist programmed themselves stays in, rather than the real drummer the producer might have used.
Old 1st January 2011
  #97
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
The only thing more futile than trying to "educate" kids about piracy is trying to dictate who can or can't reply to your thread and what we may or may not say.
In science, you often have to use an axiom as a starting point. I would have liked to have had a discussion about some solutions based on a given, that's all.

I only stated that to maybe deter the possibility (even slightly) of the thread going in the exact same direction as the rest of this sub-forum, where the topics usually just regress over semantics or definition of previous discussion points.

I realized it was probably a futile exercise, and I thank you for demonstrating why.
Old 1st January 2011
  #98
Lives for gear
 

I'd say stop being such a prick because some kid is downloading mp3s. If you make good enough music you can still make enough money to buy things like sports franchises an/or a slushy machine. If your musics not good enough there is always the army good pay, great benefits, and decent chow.
Old 1st January 2011
  #99
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefy View Post
I'd say stop being such a prick because some kid is downloading mp3s. If you make good enough music you can still make enough money to buy things like sports franchises an/or a slushy machine. If your musics not good enough there is always the army good pay, great benefits, and decent chow.

Old 1st January 2011
  #100
Yeah, don't go there.
Obviously 'joke of the day'.
Old 1st January 2011
  #101
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yeah, don't go there.
Obviously 'joke of the day'.
The worst part is that I actually began typing a response.......
Old 1st January 2011
  #102
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundrick View Post
Now, as another axiom, many people, including kids, steal music because they place no value in it.
Kids, being immature, place no value on anything since they've been handed everything all their lives.

It's up to their parents to instill some sense of values in them.

There is a term for kids whose parents fail to do this:

SPOILED BRATS.
Old 1st January 2011
  #103
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Kids, being immature, place no value on anything since they've been handed everything all their lives.

It's up to their parents to instill some sense of values in them.

There is a term for kids whose parents fail to do this:

SPOILED BRATS.
heh
You know..
there's labels for every generation:
Baby Boomers..
Gen-X
ect...

You may have just coined the term for the new generation!
Old 1st January 2011
  #104
Lives for gear
 
bitman's Avatar
I don't mean this post to be combative.
But:

Kids don't give a tinker's damn about an axiom.
If they see a ten spot on the ground and nobody is looking they will be very likely to pick it up. This is not limited to kids.

This is simply because of the sin nature in all of us. And can't be corrected by reason.

At all.

Ever.

Further evidence of this fact can be found in the latest scandal where the "Pure and Just" waves was found to have a Waves Studio" video using a warez copy of Cubase. - Sorry if that is old news btw, I just saw it this morning on KVR.
Old 1st January 2011
  #105
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

All the more reason to start handing out fines.
Downloaders get a $200 fine,
Uploaders get the full monty! stike


Soon as the average Joe starts seeing reprecussions to their illegal activities.. most will change their ways overnight...
Old 1st January 2011
  #106
Lives for gear
 

Iron-fisted, relentless enforcement with no mercy. Uploaders, downloaders, ISPs... hammer them all, fines, jail-time, WHATEVER IT TAKES, no ifs ands or buts. People will get the message.
Old 1st January 2011
  #107
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I'd like to, but most bands don't want their pre-production demos released to the public.
it's funny - I've been going through boxes in our storage room (an annual ritual) and came across an unmarked one. I opened it and found a bunch of old cassette demos, some from now platinum artists.

In LA in the late 80s, early 90s rock scene there was a currency of credibility of who had what demos by what up and coming unsigned bands. Big boys baseball cards. Anyone worth their salt in A&R, indie or major had the demos from Tool, Failure, Kyuss, etc. Also - as being label guy back then, I also had the pre-album demos from all of our bands - one of those bands went on to have a few top 10 hits.

You can hear from demo's if the guts of a song is there or not, and if you should be investing in expensive studio time to record it professionally or not (a lost art these days it seems as every demo is now "album quality" lol).

Anyway, I'm actually surprised more of this stuff hasn't surfaced - but one example that is commercially available are three versions of "Strawberry Fields Forever" in various states of production before the album final - I believe these are on The Beatles Anthology Series. The first of which is just Lennon belting out the basics of the song on an acoustic guitar w/ one mic.

I'm sure with the teh internets such as it is, if someone really wanted to find something they could. A year or so ago (and they still might be out there - there were like 10-14 John Bonham drum tracks outtakes).
Old 1st January 2011
  #108
Registered User
 

let me ask you this if i can go and stream katy perry any time i want on youtube online radio stations hear her in the car on the way to work etc etc etc where do I feel this big moral delima to download the track?

I don't I wouldn't at 15 and I wouldn't at 30 if its availble free its value is free thats my opinion

now give me that audio in 96k or 48k on surround sound I'll pay
give me the stereo version in cd quality ill pay

128kb download not a freakin chance in hell
Old 1st January 2011
  #109
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
All the more reason to start handing out fines.
Downloaders get a $200 fine,
Uploaders get the full monty! stike

Soon as the average Joe starts seeing reprecussions to their illegal activities.. most will change their ways overnight...
I'm a little skeptical about the news out of France, but it looks like the measures being taken there might be working, HADOPI & Vouchers.

The French Government was also said to be issuing credit vouches to citizens to purchase music from legal download sites in an effort to migrate them there.

If it is in fact working there, it might be looked at more seriously by other countries. I'm glad the French still have respect for the creative class. When you think about to contributions to society by the creatives, it's really a much larger crime for the general population to take a piss on them by stealing their work.

French Biz Continues To Grow In 2010 | Billboard.biz

HADOPI law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

France Starts Reporting ‘Millions’ of File-Sharers | TorrentFreak

Legal downloads boosted in France by La Carte Musique | finetunes
Old 1st January 2011
  #110
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doulos24 View Post
let me ask you this if i can go and stream katy perry any time i want on youtube online radio stations hear her in the car on the way to work etc etc etc where do I feel this big moral delima to download the track?
The moral issue is whether you can own the track without buying it. You can listen to it anytime you want elsewhere, that's true. In Youtube and in other areas (pandora, last.fm, etc) the artist is being compensated, and has (hopefully) authorized the use. So there's no moral dilemma, unless you decide to OWN the track yourself without buying it. Is it really that complex?
Old 1st January 2011
  #111
Quote:
Originally Posted by doulos24 View Post
let me ask you this if i can go and stream katy perry any time i want on youtube online radio stations hear her in the car on the way to work etc etc etc where do I feel this big moral delima to download the track?

I don't I wouldn't at 15 and I wouldn't at 30 if its availble free its value is free thats my opinion
As psalad pointed out there difference between legally free, and illegally free is possession. Once you possess it, you've crossed the line. Illegally Free is not the same as Legally Free. If you don't need to posses the track, because you have access to it, that works for you, great.

But, if you want more access to the track than is given, and you feel the need to posses it, personally - than you have to pay for that. It is not free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doulos24 View Post
lnow give me that audio in 96k or 48k on surround sound I'll pay
give me the stereo version in cd quality ill pay
sure you will, unless it was also illegally free and then your opinion would be " if its availble free its value is free thats my opinion"

Quote:
Originally Posted by doulos24 View Post
128kb download not a freakin chance in hell
The choice is always yours. Buy or Don't Buy. But not buying doesn't give you the right to steal it either... Understand?
Old 1st January 2011
  #112
Quote:
Originally Posted by doulos24 View Post
let me ask you this if i can go and stream katy perry any time i want on youtube online radio stations hear her in the car on the way to work etc etc etc where do I feel this big moral delima to download the track?

now give me that audio in 96k or 48k on surround sound I'll pay
give me the stereo version in cd quality ill pay
It's not only about what you want now, it's also about what you want in the future.
People who pay for music are paying forward. Someone buying the music is how artists stay afloat.
That's why there should be 'a big moral dilemma' when downloading the track. It isn't only about what you personally demand, it's paying respect to the entity that created the music you are enjoying.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #113
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
The only thing I've said about them is that their status as rock stars doesn't mean they are experts in the music industry. That is true.
While it's certainly true that Dumb Ass, drummer of Bitch Slap doesn't know crap about the music industry, would you say the same of someone like Paul McCartney? I'd say that Macca probably knows a hell of a lot about the music industry, wouldn't you? Or anybody who's been around the business on a successful level for decades. In fact a lot of these guys probably know more about it that some of the people running the companies - they certainly manage to have longer careers.....

Quote:
I get frustrated with what I see as your inability to follow logic, and the way you continually rephrase things that I didn't say.
It is utterly hilarious hearing this coming from you.

Quote:
I also get frustrated with your inability to just let **** rest. Do you have the desire or capability to agree to disagree?
Agreeing to disagree only works when there are two sides with equally valid evidence. That is not the case here, where we have hard figures on one side and bullsh*t sociology on the other. And even in cases where there has been a so-called "agreement to disagree" the question generally continues to be argued to resolution, such as the Einstein-Ritz matter in which it was proven that Einstein was correct and Ritz's theory needed modification to be reconciled to Einstein.

So no, there can be no capacity to agree to disagree here.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #114
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein
Very few amateurs put in the work to become professional, because it's intense and you don't get paid for a long time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post


Or because their music is far outside of the mainstream where there is no possibility of earning a living.

what does that have to do with it?? do they have no self pride or obtain no satisfaction from trying to excel?

i guess that is the main reason why most amateur music sucks, they don't care and they don't put the time in to make it the best it can be.

but then amateurs are always playing the Art card, but then when has Art ever been a guarantee at making money, and yet many, many artists slaved at their Art to make it the best it could be...

sooooo many hobbyists, whatever the hobby may be, take it very, very seriously, spend lots of money and time in becoming the best they can be with no thought to making money, just the self satisfaction of being the best they can...

if what you say is true, and this is going to sound really bad, but, they should not have the privilege to release music and i would go so far as to say they shouldn't even be allowed to make it... if that is their mindset they need to go find something that they will put the effort into, of course that sounds a little elitist and tyrant like, but its just frustrating seeing people clogging ish up doing stuff they don't really care for when there is a multitude of things they could be doing that would be of more benefit to them and others... maybe its just me, when i do something i want to be the best, and if im unable to put my all into it or find i don't care about it, i move on to the next thing... i don't expect others to agree with me nor would i force my opinion upon them, it's just their thinking often leaves me like

anyways minor rant off, ultimately your statement says a lot psalad...
Old 2nd January 2011
  #115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefy View Post
I'd say stop being such a prick because some kid is downloading mp3s. If you make good enough music you can still make enough money to buy things like sports franchises an/or a slushy machine. If your musics not good enough there is always the army good pay, great benefits, and decent chow.
Are you insane? Do you actually believe what you see on reality TV?

Do you actually KNOW any rock stars? I've known quite a few.

Do you have any idea what it costs to record a professional quality album and tour?

The few rock stars who actually do have money worked very, very hard for what they have and generally did not actually make their fortunes in music, they took the modest earnings they made and invested it wisely, just like other people do. A successful rock star might actually have an income comparable to a typical middle class person such as a college professor or the owner of a small business - but has to work a lot harder, spends most of his time away from home, has no benefits package, and is responsible for supporting a small army of employees.

Do you know why God created rock stars?

They make jobs for the crew.

The person who should "stop being such a prick" is you.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #116
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
While it's certainly true that Dumb Ass, drummer of Bitch Slap doesn't know crap about the music industry, would you say the same of someone like Paul McCartney?
I have no idea about his knowledge of the industry. I know, for example, as much as I don't like his music much, Russel Simmons seems to be a good businessman. So yes it's possible, which is, of course, why I wrote "necessarily."

Quote:
It is utterly hilarious hearing this coming from you.
IMHO, you are often going from sounding completely reasonable to... WTF are you thinking? So, I guess... it goes both ways.

Quote:
Agreeing to disagree only works when there are two sides with equally valid evidence.
Really? Again.. that is just freakin' crazy. I disagree with you about quite a few things, but, frankly, it's not worth going there because you're not going to change your mind. So... that's agree to disagree.

Quote:
That is not the case here, where we have hard figures on one side and bullsh*t sociology on the other.
Good god, you make me laugh. You're back to WTF land again. You don't have much hard evidence other than your biased opinion. You can count the numbers of torrents. You can't count the numbers of torrents who would have purchased. You can measure the downturn, but you can't yet measure the impact piracy has had on the downturn. The fact that you THINK you have "facts" is, again, back in WTF land. You don't.

BTW, you are one who has thrown the "facts" word around a few times, and I've proven you wrong with your "facts" at least twice. So you have frankly no credibility with me about what you CLAIM is a "fact."

Quote:
And even in cases where there has been a so-called "agreement to disagree" the question generally continues to be argued to resolution, such as the Einstein-Ritz matter in which it was proven that Einstein was correct and Ritz's theory needed modification to be reconciled to Einstein.
You completely missed it even though it was right there in front of you... you actually proved my point, thank you. Eventually, we will have evidence. You or I may be proven right... just like Einstein. In the meantime... what did they do again? Oh yea, they agreed to disagree UNTIL it was provable. Right, that's it.

Quote:
So no, there can be no capacity to agree to disagree here.
Yes, none at all with you... I get it.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
it's funny - I've been going through boxes in our storage room (an annual ritual) and came across an unmarked one. I opened it and found a bunch of old cassette demos, some from now platinum artists.

In LA in the late 80s, early 90s rock scene there was a currency of credibility of who had what demos by what up and coming unsigned bands. Big boys baseball cards. Anyone worth their salt in A&R, indie or major had the demos from Tool, Failure, Kyuss, etc. Also - as being label guy back then, I also had the pre-album demos from all of our bands - one of those bands went on to have a few top 10 hits.

You can hear from demo's if the guts of a song is there or not, and if you should be investing in expensive studio time to record it professionally or not (a lost art these days it seems as every demo is now "album quality" lol).

Anyway, I'm actually surprised more of this stuff hasn't surfaced - but one example that is commercially available are three versions of "Strawberry Fields Forever" in various states of production before the album final - I believe these are on The Beatles Anthology Series. The first of which is just Lennon belting out the basics of the song on an acoustic guitar w/ one mic.

I'm sure with the teh internets such as it is, if someone really wanted to find something they could. A year or so ago (and they still might be out there - there were like 10-14 John Bonham drum tracks outtakes).
Yeah. There's a ton of Stones outtakes and rough mixes floating around. I ran into a pre-edit version of Gimme Shelter a few months ago that was really interesting to hear all the extraneous stuff that got cut out......
Old 2nd January 2011
  #118
Quote:
Originally Posted by doulos24 View Post
let me ask you this if i can go and stream katy perry any time i want on youtube online radio stations hear her in the car on the way to work etc etc etc where do I feel this big moral delima to download the track?

I don't I wouldn't at 15 and I wouldn't at 30 if its availble free its value is free thats my opinion

now give me that audio in 96k or 48k on surround sound I'll pay
give me the stereo version in cd quality ill pay

128kb download not a freakin chance in hell
The point is that when you stream Katy Perry on Youtube she is getting paid every time you do it. Just like when she gets played on radio.

This stuff isn't actually free - the artist is paid by advertising. When you download it and play it on your ipod the artist is not getting paid.

Now if you want to download 128k MP3s, it's your choice - personally I think it's stupid and won't pay for it either. But then I don't download music - I buy hardcopy. If you care about quality I'd suggest you do the same. If I had an MP3 player - which I don't - I'd rip my own stuff and play it as WAVs or lossless FLACs. I do use Youtube for research.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #119
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
I have no idea about his knowledge of the industry. I know, for example, as much as I don't like his music much, Russel Simmons seems to be a good businessman. So yes it's possible, which is, of course, why I wrote "necessarily."
From what I've seen, could be wrong here, but you are almost certain to dismiss the views of a professional musician, every time, and seemingly without consideration.

For me the views of African musicians, a left wing socialist like Billy Bragg, and an out and out capitalist like Gene Simmons are interesting to inspect and contrast. The fact their view on the effect of piracy barely contrasts at all is significant in my view.
But in any case, if you appeared to take professional commentary on merit from time to time, as I and others have poured through your economics research, your claim to be fair minded (as in 'It's possible') would ring a little more true.
As it is, your failure to look at even half the Ari Emanuel video (which was extremely balanced, at least thought provoking in my view) and your very often repeated mantra that professionals are biased and untrustworthy leave me feeling you just don't want to know.
And if you don't want to know what one half of the debate are saying (creative professionals vs filesharers), how can you ever hope to have a fair and balanced view?
Old 2nd January 2011
  #120
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post

Now if you want to download 128k MP3s, it's your choice - personally I think it's stupid and won't pay for it either.
I do.
But then I play mp3's back on my iPhone - how good is the quality going to be anyway?
I also like to support the artists, in this case 99.9% of the time electronica artists.
I find $2-$3 per song decent value, especially when I can enjoy the music on my walk in the countryside or sitting in an airport departure lounge.
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