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How to make kids (and others) understand?? Condenser Microphones
Old 31st December 2010
  #61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
You may recall your parents (or their parents) saying the same thing about rock'n'roll.
Rock'n'roll didn't promote wholesale rape, murder, and theft.
Old 31st December 2010
  #62
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
These guys are getting a bit of airplay themselves, as retro an act as you could imagine, an acoustic blues duo...

Naughty Song -- Holly & Evan.mp3 - 4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download
Tons of potential.
Love the bass riff and sound.
Sadly there are some odd intonation issues between the bass and vocals that make me wince, and I agree with John about the vocal performance.
In the 'old days' this would be a demo.
I think that's where things have changed - I'll leave it up to you to decide for better or worse - self produced demos are now final product. Inspirational producers and productions are old fashioned.
Old 31st December 2010
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I said less quality, LESS.
fair enough
Old 31st December 2010
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Again - I refer you to the recording Joel posted - beautiful song, obviously talented singer, lackluster performance that could have been so much better with the help of an experienced producer.

Sad, really.
I'm inclined to agree with you, but there is an entire subculture of hipsters who prefer "under-produced/raw/etc..." recordings.

At the end of that argument is just folks and their opinions based on personal taste.
Old 31st December 2010
  #65
I agree.
It's a very difficult area.
I've done a lot of rough and ready projects over the years. They're usually the most interesting and most exciting.
I also got hired to replace band drummers by their album producers.
Often those records were well received by critics and fans.
I would just say two things.....
One) I think my story of the tv music scene is most appropriate in exampling John's position. Where actual artistic values are reduced to save time and money, not because we're employing modern tools.
Two) Over the last ten years I've probably worked on more disappointing projects that are spoilt by the lack of a producer, recording engineer, and over laden with virtual instruments and plug-ins. Over the previous 20 years I worked on similarly home-made, low budget productions, but I just think the lack of production/engineering experience, added to the reliance on virtual software is doing less to foster great music .
It's not unusual to sit around for hours while someone spins through 20,000 amp simulator pre-sets..... just because you can.
In the old days (), you'd just stick a guitar into an amp and you were off on the creative process.
Old 31st December 2010
  #66
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundrick View Post
I'm inclined to agree with you, but there is an entire subculture of hipsters who prefer "under-produced/raw/etc..." recordings.

At the end of that argument is just folks and their opinions based on personal taste.
I'm not talking about fancy production. I'm talking about the ability of a top producer to inspire an artist to the highest levels of their ability - and then exceed that.
Old 31st December 2010
  #67
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
In the old days (), you'd just stick a guitar into an amp and you were off on the creative process.
Heck, I don't even like amps that have too many knobs.
Old 31st December 2010
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I'm not talking about fancy production. I'm talking about the ability of a top producer to inspire an artist to the highest levels of their ability - and then exceed that.
I wonder how many artists' visions have been ruined by top producers........

It's not a catch-all solution
Old 31st December 2010
  #69
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundrick View Post
I wonder how many artists' visions have been ruined by top producers........

It's not a catch-all solution
Well, you have to match the producer to the artist.

It sometimes helps if the artist has a say in the matter.

However if you look at all the great albums of the past 50 years, you'll find that nearly all of them involved a great producer.

And you have to understand that a great producer isn't necessarily the producer who happens to be the flavor of the minute with the major labels.

Look at Sir George Martin - EMI had him stuck working with comedy acts when The Beatles walked into his life. If The Beatles were new artists today would they have received the guidance and encouragement required to blossom into the game changing act they were? If they were self recording in Pete Best's basement?

Think about it.........
Old 31st December 2010
  #70
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundrick View Post
I wonder how many artists' visions have been ruined by top producers........
Less than have helped realise the best outcome.
That's just from personal experience.
I've worked with tough producers who have wrung great recordings out of a band, also self producing artists. The former is definitely more successful IME.

I worked with one guy who was a successful pop artist and song writer.
Plenty of critical acclaim and popular songs, some self produced.
He had a song he was convinced would be a hit.
We played it on tour for at least a year. We dicked with the arrangement from time to time.
All of us had years of collective recording experience.
The studio was booked for the recording, but first the artist booked a few days of rehearsals and called in a couple of mates, a well known production team.
We played them the song and together we worked on it for a couple of days .
These guys pointed out understated parts we had that should be strongly featured. Lot's of 8 bar transitions were totally cut out or reduced to as short as possible etc....
It was fascinating to be a part of and see what they brought to the song.
The song was the biggest solo hit this artist had had to that point, and it's still the biggest hit he's had.
Old 31st December 2010
  #71
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AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

Saw this on Music Technology Policy blog, thought it was revelant. Kinda a public service annoucnement type thing:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=EUABOIe5SWo
Old 31st December 2010
  #72
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
Saw this on Music Technology Policy blog, thought it was revelant. Kinda a public service annoucnement type thing:



YouTube - Watch the Choice

It seems the piracy problem hasn't affected the movie industry quite as much as the music industry yet (if it ever will). I'd attribute this mostly to the larger file sizes (it takes longer to download) and big "event" style blockbusters in theaters. Ticket prices are less expensive for a 3 hour movie than for a 2-3 hour concert, people still regularly go out on dates to see the new romantic comedy or "tron" scale blockbuster.

It's still sad though because even in this video here you have most comments being of disguist with the commercial, and the only one I saw with a thumbs up called it "brainwashing".

And it's just like that on the anti-piracy PSAs for music. The top comments are all "I pirated this commercial" and similar things.

But in answer to the OP, I'm not sure it's possible to make the kids get it. As a college student I'm one of the few in my group of friends that doesn't illegaly download. Even when I've had discussions with them about it they tend to be in disbelief and don't want to forfeit their ability to get free music. They all hold the popular conviction that it's "new technology" and the industry needs to move on.

As a musician I'm still going to keep making music and pursue the idea of making a living off of it (sh!t, I've spent several years playing 6-10 hours a day I'm not dropping it that easy), but this whole social acceptance of piracy doesn't make it any easier.
Old 1st January 2011
  #73
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Less than have helped realise the best outcome.
That's just from personal experience.
I've worked with tough producers who have wrung great recordings out of a band, also self producing artists. The former is definitely more successful IME.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you guys that great producers can get great results, I just wanted to throw it out there that they aren't always necessary.
Specifically in the context of the discussion based on what the hipsters think is cool right now.

That being said, I just watched Daniel Lanois "Here is what is", and I must say, I already loved him as a producer, especially with Eno.
But, NOW, I think I would give my right pinkie to work with those guys.
Talk about people who "get it".
Old 1st January 2011
  #74
Old 1st January 2011
  #75
Old 1st January 2011
  #76
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
That's actually pretty good. If only someone were willing to put something like that together for musicians. Um..

Nevermind.
Old 1st January 2011
  #77
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
That's actually pretty good. If only someone were willing to put something like that together for musicians. Um..

Nevermind.
see the post above.
Old 1st January 2011
  #78
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
see the post above.
Not the same. It's OK, just not as good.
Old 1st January 2011
  #79
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
That's actually pretty good. If only someone were willing to put something like that together for musicians. Um..

Nevermind.
You're making it sound like you suddenly give a sh!t about musicians.....???

What gives?
Old 1st January 2011
  #80
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundrick View Post
You're making it sound like you suddenly give a sh!t about musicians.....???

What gives?
He's constantly having a go at me - despite saying he's sick of the agro etc, etc.....
Psalad claims what is missing is a YouTube video of ordinary (non Rock Star) musicians telling the downloaders (actual and potential) how it is.
He challenged me to make a film with him, despite the fact I don't think pirates care about what ordinary musicians say, despite the fact I have my own video equipment, and despite the fact I'm most known for enormo-stadium tours with Dire Straits and Paul McCartney, and when a neighbor recently came across my past on YouTube exclaimed "I can't believe I see you walk your dog" - like I have a dog walking servant.
Old 1st January 2011
  #81
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Psalad claims what is missing is a YouTube video of ordinary (non Rock Star) musicians telling the downloaders (actual and potential) how
Correction. I've offered my own FREE professional labor, not just to you, but also to "fuzzman." I've offered to create a proof of concept of a campaign that uses real musicians. All Fuzzman needed to do was identify a couple of musician or music industry professionals to go on camera somewhere in the SF Bay Area.

My belief is people need to hear stories from real people, not rock stars, but real people who have been impacted by the economic downturn of the industry.

I've heard Chris bring a bunch of excuses WHY it WOULD NOT work. That's fine... I'm in a communications role, so I MIGHT know what I'm talking about.. but I might also be wrong. Fuzzman seemed interested at first, we had a bunch of email exchanges and he seemed sincere. It's been, what, at least three or four months since? Nothing.

I understand we are all busy but if it's that big of a deal you would think people would be jumping at the possibility.

So whatever.

You can read about how the three blind mice want to play me, but I have always been against piracy, and have always been willing to take a stand against it (as I have in MANY cases among friends/relatives/etc). Because I disagree about the amount of impact, that MUST mean I'm a, what, "piracy apologist," right? Even though I'm willing to volunteer my OWN professional labor. Sure, makes sense to me.

"What gives", soundrick, is you have let others define and judge me because of a disagreement. Whatever.
Old 1st January 2011
  #82
MWP
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Nice song. Could have been a lot better with a professional producer to get a great, rather than merely a competent, performance out of the singer.

Which perfectly illustrates my point.


See my comments to Joel above.

It's very good. It could have been great.
Mr. Eppstein, would you please so be kind to give me/us an example of a recording that shows the difference, before and after, that a professional producer has produced a better than competent performance out of the singer. It would a least give me a reference point for the benefits of hiring
a professional producer.

Thanks,
MWP
Old 1st January 2011
  #83
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post

I've heard Chris bring a bunch of excuses WHY it WOULD NOT work. That's fine... I'm in a communications role, so I MIGHT know what I'm talking about.. but I might also be wrong.
Come on man, we seriously do know this is nonsense.
If anything, I was known as a drummer in the late 80's, early 90's.
I go into my local drumstore now, pay by credit card with my name on it and nobody cares. Why should the 23yr old in the drumstore care? Why should the 23yr old pirate care?
Why do advertising campaigns hire celebrities 99% of the time. I'm sure it's not because they could sell the same message with a no mark who would charge them virtually no appearance fee.


Quote:
"What gives", soundrick, is you have let others define and judge me because of a disagreement. Whatever.
I wouldn't tell him what to think.
He's in the industry too of course.
Old 1st January 2011
  #84
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
If anything, I was known as a drummer in the late 80's, early 90's.
Sure, those are reasons why it won't work. Now why it might work: You are not a major rock star, combine your message with a bunch of successful but non-rock stars in the industry in a campaign over a long period of time.

We've been here before, Chris, and I'll be completely frank. I like action, and I respect people who take action and try stuff. I don't have a ton of respect for someone who is always saying why something won't work. I've been in bands with people like that, and it's no fun.

You've made yourself clear, Chris, so nevermind. However, I find it pretty damn hilarious that the "piracy apologist" is the one trying to get you and others here to DO SOMETHING about the problem.
Old 1st January 2011
  #85
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWP View Post
Mr. Eppstein, would you please so be kind to give me/us an example of a recording that shows the difference, before and after, that a professional producer has produced a better than competent performance out of the singer. It would a least give me a reference point for the benefits of hiring
a professional producer.

Thanks,
MWP
I could, but generally it's not cool to post demos, especially unflattering one's on the internet.
Old 1st January 2011
  #86
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
I don't have a ton of respect for someone who is always saying why something won't work. I've been in bands with people like that, and it's no fun.
Again with the personal attacks. You really could be less rude.

Quote:
However, I find it pretty damn hilarious that the "piracy apologist" is the one trying to get you and others here to DO SOMETHING about the problem.
First I haven't said I wont do anything. Secondly why should I get involved with someone who is repeatedly rude about me (in public), and also why should I tie myself to your timeframe, ideas and agenda.
To be quite frank, if someone I respected and thought was actually sincere approached me, say a Billy Bragg, or an Anton Corbin, or a Paul McGuiness, I'd absolutely jump at the chance to get involved.
So, in response to you finding it hilarious, I find it equally funny you laugh at me heh, say I must be on crack, and tell everyone on Gearslutz I'm untrustworthy, then have the front to say I'm a fake 'cos i wont make a video with you.
Really you are failing in the most basic way when it comes to making genuine contacts and forming collaborative partnerships.
In short, I've done enough in my career to avoid working with people who are rude and dismissive to me, and tend to seek out like minded, fun people to collaborate with.
Old 1st January 2011
  #87
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Again with the personal attacks. You really could be less rude.
Fine, you're right, and I'll do better. Sometimes I let it all get the best of me. Sorry. It's no excuse that you and others have thrown the same crap at me, I should be better.

Quote:
First I haven't said I wont do anything.
My reason for repeating all of this is not to bust your chops for not doing this. It's to show that I'm actually TRYING to do something to help, in spite of you and others trying to always make me out to be the bad guy.

I respect you may have reasons why you don't want to do this, but at the same time, everyone has reasons why they shouldn't, and if nobody does it... then nothing happens.

I didn't say you were a fake, obviously that is not fair for you to say.

Quote:
Really you are failing in the most basic way when it comes to making genuine contacts and forming collaborations.
Honestly, if it was going to happen, it would have happened months ago. I've given up on the idea. At this point, any action I take is obviously not going to be with you or "fuzzman."
Old 1st January 2011
  #88
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Sorry. It's no excuse that you and others have thrown the same crap at me, I should be better.
Have I ever accused you of being on crack? Have I ever declared to the forum that you are not to be trusted?
I think the worst I've ever thrown at you is that you are not experienced enough in the industry to argue about the business with people who are experienced in the industry.
I've also frankly said how I dislike the way to talk to and talk about some other people. I think you are way off with your attitude to well know (you would call 'rock star') musicians.


Quote:
My reason for repeating all of this is not to bust your chops for not doing this. It's to show that I'm actually TRYING to do something to help, in spite of you and others trying to always make me out to be the bad guy.
Firstly, that's great, all power to you.
Secondly, I wish you no malice, I don't dislike you. I find your opposition to long time industry people and their thoughts on the digital crisis baffling, and rather over reaching for someone with little experience and nothing of their own attractive to downloaders. I get frustrated when I ask you simple questions, even if it's just to clear up in my mind where you are coming from, and you come back with the comic one liners - avoiding.

Quote:
I didn't say you were a fake, obviously that is not fair for you to say.
Well that's how I read this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
I'll be completely frank. I like action, and I respect people who take action and try stuff. I don't have a ton of respect for someone who is always saying why something won't work. I've been in bands with people like that
So you don't think I ever act on things, and you don't have 'a ton of respect' for me. And I remind you of the negative forces in the bands you've been in.
Oh..... and "will you make a video with me?"

Quote:
Honestly, if it was going to happen, it would have happened months ago.
I'm currently working (on NYE and New Years Day) on a project that's been two to four years in the planning (depending on which way you look at it).
I have another project waiting to start, because I'm too busy on project one.
Making a video next week or even next month with someone who slags me off on gearslutz at least once a week is not a priority for me.
Old 1st January 2011
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundrick View Post
Now, as another axiom, many people, including kids, steal music because they place no value in it.
That's not at all true in my opinion. People steal music because they can get away with it with no repercussions. You can't just magically guilt people into buying music without establishing any concrete penalties. The only time in the history of the world something like that has worked is when religion has convinced people to believe in supernatural penalties.
Old 1st January 2011
  #90
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Have I ever accused you of being on crack? Have I ever declared to the forum that you are not to be trusted?
I think the worst I've ever thrown at you is that you are not experienced enough in the industry to argue about the business with people who are experienced in the industry.
I don't mean you any malice, but I cannot trust the way you interpret data. I interpret it very differently. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

You have thrown plenty of crap my way Chris.

Quote:
I think you are way off with your attitude to well know (you would call 'rock star') musicians.
The only thing I've said about them is that their status as rock stars doesn't mean they are experts in the music industry. That is true.

Quote:
I get frustrated when I ask you simple questions, even if it's just to clear up in my mind where you are coming from, and you come back with the comic one liners - avoiding.
I get frustrated with what I see as your inability to follow logic, and the way you continually rephrase things that I didn't say. I also get frustrated with your inability to just let **** rest. Do you have the desire or capability to agree to disagree?

Quote:
So you don't think I ever act on things, and you don't have 'a ton of respect' for me. And I remind you of the negative forces in the bands you've been in.
Oh..... and "will you make a video with me?"
See, that's what I'm talking about. My comment was about ONE thing, the video. I didn't say YOU "never acted on things." That would be absurd for me to say.

Again, I'm over the entire idea, because I really don't like to beg people to do something that is in their best interest. I don't want to force people to accept a donation of my time. There are many other causes I can donate my time to who would be happy to have my work.
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