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How to make kids (and others) understand?? Condenser Microphones
Old 31st December 2010
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathawkes View Post
My point isn't that theft of music is good, it is that free information is good.
You do understand that the original quotation (by Stewart Brand) was profoundly misappropriated by the freetard contingent? No? Well it was.

The original context of the quotation concerned academic/technical knowledge - educational material - not art, not software, not commercial products.
Old 31st December 2010
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Because that's not the logical result-- the logical result is that music becomes much more hobby than occupation. And the quality of it, as ever, is in the eyes of the beholder-- and the digital revolution has made technical quality perfectly achievable to anyone, anywhere. That, in this observer's eyes, is the real root of the problem-- the fact that it doesn't take a huge complex and an army of engineers and techs to make a "great" record anymore. I.e., the "cost" of creating great music is very, very minimal in this world in which we live in.
Joel, as a professional recordist who gets paid for his expertise you know as well as I do that that's simply not true.

Granted, in your specialized niche the technology involved is a great deal simpler than it is for making records in the popular genres, but still you must realize that proper recording methodology is not something that Joe Schmoe can pick up by buying an M-Box and a couple of 57s at Banjo Center and subscribing to SOS magazine. That's good enough for hobby stuff (hobbyist audio has never been better) and adequate for making demos and non-commercial YouTube vids but it simply isn't commercial quality and never will be.

The cost of creating "OK" music is minimal, and that's fine. The cost of creating GREAT music is not minimal and never will be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
I agree Joel.

On topic... I tell my kids (and people who ask me to rip my CDs) that people pay for music they want to own. If you don't want to own it, then there are plenty of places to listen to it for free, radio, pandora/last.fm/whatever, online radio, youtube, the artist's own site, etc.
You do understand that Joel makes his living by doing location recordings of school musical ensembles, which are then pressed and sold to the proud parents, relatives, and friends of the student musicians, not by doing any sort of commercial music, right?
Old 31st December 2010
  #33
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Social engineering combined with legal sanctions. Every one of the areas you cite has a legal component.
...
Well, yeah. In this thread, could we take it for granted that there will be a stick for each carrot? The legal component is pretty well represented in other threads.
Old 31st December 2010
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
The cost of creating "OK" music is minimal, and that's fine. The cost of creating GREAT music is not minimal and never will be.
unfortunately, there are many here who will disagree with you on that...
The Cost of Creativity, The Price of GREATNESS...
Old 31st December 2010
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
And where do we drop this nugget of insight: in 1987, this conversation would be conducted in the letters section of Mix magazine, and would be drawn out over months and months, and we would in all likelihood have to maintain a paid subscription to participate... nobody needs to pay dues to Gearslutz to be a part of it now.

The modern world has been cruelly abusive to some people and things, and has conferred unimaginable benefits on others. That's the thing I can't help noticing.
Very true.....
Old 31st December 2010
  #36
And, my biographer, surely you've noticed my recordings getting airplay on classical radio stations... if you want to say the "commercial" world is dying and a new "entrepreneurial" world of independent operators is swinging in to take its place, and you want to use me as its symbol, by all means, go ahead.
Old 31st December 2010
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
And, my biographer, surely you've noticed my recordings getting airplay on classical radio stations...
Good luck to you. I think you are fortunate and obviously up to the job. thumbsup

However, you chiefly have one paying client (according to your website), and they fund the recordings with online sales (not give aways).
So your business model is hardly anything new.
I had a friend ten years ago who recorded school choirs on ADAT, then the school sold the CD's to fund the choir.
Old 31st December 2010
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

I think you can persuade people that brushing and flossing have value. teeth are tangible. There's a real downside to not having teeth.

I think you can persuade people that changing your oil every 3000 miles has value. A car is tangible, there's a real downside to your engine seizing in the middle of nowhere.

I think it's much harder to convince people that there's tangible value in a 3 minute song.

And in more concrete terms a cup of coffee is more than four times more valuable than a song these days.

You can't dictate values. You can only try to understand where the culture's value system currently exists and work within it.
Old 31st December 2010
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
I see an ever-expanding universe of music online, in the "free" system, because the access is completely unhindered. We can probably agree that the internet is flooded with it, good, bad and indifferent, but the trendline is like the spiking of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere-- relentless and skyrocketing. I saw John Eppstein say in another thread that "great music is expensive," and it was declared, like he was reading from a stone tablet. To which I say... What? Phenomenally exquisite gear is dirt cheap! In the Old World of 1977, great music was expensive, because it required a whole behemoth-hood of customized buildings and monstrously complicated electronics-- that just isn't true anymore, not even slightly. Some kind of DAW, an ART interface, a few Avant mics... and you're in Peter Frampton territory. There really is no debating this point, it's just true.
No, Joel, it's just not. I only wish it was, then I could give up maintaining my Studer and just use a cheap computer and interface, but unfortunately I can't, because the differences are glaringly obvious. My voice sounds good on the Studer. It sounds like crap recorded digitally, even through the same analog console with the same mic. In fact it sounds better on the Studer with an SM58 than it does digitally with a 1970s vintage U87 that was just gone over by Neumann.

Now I will grant you that phenomenally exquisite gear is dirt cheap, but these things are relative - I paid $5000 plus another couple of grand in refurbishing and countless hours of labor for a tape machine that cost well over $100,000 new in the '80s - probably the equivalent of 200 grand now. I paid 6 grand for an analog console that originally cost over 10 times that. But somehow I don't quite think that's what you meant. (And it's not exactly like Joe Schmoe would know how to operate it, either......) I think you were talking about cheap "prosumer" grade gear from Banjo Center and I'm sorry, it just doesn't come close. Maybe it's OK for your recordings of school kids, but that's not exactly a professional market now is it?

Incidentally, exactly what kind of gear DO you use for those location recordings? I'd wager that it probably isn't prosumer grade stuff from Banjo Center, is it?

Yes, there is digital gear that is of acceptable professional quality (although it still doesn't sound like a Studer.) I'd be quite happy with a Radar Nyquist rig and I'd probably be just fine with a nice pile of Benchmark gear. I'd love 24 tracks worth of Lavrey Black.

But that's not exactly the same as a $200 el cheapo interface from Banjo Center, is it? Or even a "professional" Digidesign rig, for that matter.

And it would actually cost me more than my vintage analog gear.

Quote:
Less music software? Geez, I dunno... I sort of wished someone had strangled the inventors of Auto-tune in their cribs, myself.
On this we are in perfect agreement.
Old 31st December 2010
  #40
Nothing "new" but in every way tuning into the times... I would like to think... now that you mention it... the "bands" I work with are all generally pro bono affairs, which I track and mix solely because I like them and wish them well...

These guys are getting a bit of airplay themselves, as retro an act as you could imagine, an acoustic blues duo...

Naughty Song -- Holly & Evan.mp3 - 4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download

So no wonder I don't fit into your guys' paradigm, everything I do is exactly the opposite of the way things used to work.
Old 31st December 2010
  #41
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Great music is expensive. It is expensive to create, it is expensive to record properly, and it is expensive to perform at a high level of professionalism.
It is not expensive to create and record great music. It is more expensive to create great recordings, yes, but even that is cheaper now.

All it takes to record great music is a mic and a recorder, and someone talented performing.

It doesn't take a lot of money to write great music. Talent is free, though practice takes time.

Quote:
Amateur music is free because it's not worth buying.
Most amateur music I buy is not free. And it's worth buying, because I buy it.

Quote:
Very few amateurs put in the work to become professional, because it's intense and you don't get paid for a long time.
Or because their music is far outside of the mainstream where there is no possibility of earning a living.

Quote:
Because of this, and the leeching of the financial lifeblood of the music business by piracy, fewer and fewer people are willing to put out the effort required.
I'm not sure I understand.. I'm seeing more music released than ever before, both by pros and amateurs.
Old 31st December 2010
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
...

Incidentally, exactly what kind of gear DO you use for those location recordings? I'd wager that it probably isn't prosumer grade stuff from Banjo Center, is it?

...
I do not want to be the one to shatter your preconceptions, and if I was wedded to vintage, expensive stuff, was used to its quirks and only comfortable in its presence, and convinced that nothing else would do, then that would be a resounding that. Except for the troubling that... when me and a zillion cats like me find radio programmers perfectly happy with our "oh my God you are kidding!" equipment lists, then, well, that's just then.

Nearly everything goes through Syteks onto an HD24, mixed down in Digital Performer. Most expensive mics are a pair of Earthworks QTC-30's. I know you read this... please, just stop weeping!
Old 31st December 2010
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
unfortunately, there are many here who will disagree with you on that...
The Cost of Creativity, The Price of GREATNESS...
Yes, but those people generally either don't know what they're talking about or have some sort of axe to grind or hidden agenda.

Not many people who actually have experience creating professional quality recordings, even ones like Kenny who work entirely ITB, would disagree.

Most of the ones who disagree are people who have bought into the whole digital home recording thing and fervently believe that they can be just like CLA if only they buy the right plugins. Most of the ones who are left have a vested interest in selling, writing about, or creating those plugins and/or the systems they run on.
Old 31st December 2010
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
And, my biographer, surely you've noticed my recordings getting airplay on classical radio stations... if you want to say the "commercial" world is dying and a new "entrepreneurial" world of independent operators is swinging in to take its place, and you want to use me as its symbol, by all means, go ahead.
Are you getting airplay on classical stations? If so that's great - I'm genuinely happy for you.

That still doesn't mean that your experience in your niche market - classical location recording - has any bearing at all on any of the more popular genres. (For the purposes of this discussion we'll lump acoustic jazz in with the classical market....)
Old 31st December 2010
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Yes, but those people generally either don't know what they're talking about or have some sort of axe to grind or hidden agenda...
Do you ever feel like someone who was on the wrong side at the fall of Rome?

You can lump every computer-based project, from pre-teen in a basement on up, dismiss them all as deluded and worthless, and cling to a very particular tried-and-true methodology, no one is going to breathe a word to try to convince you otherwise... but there may and might be a new world coming, the one we've had visions of, coming in peace, coming in joy, coming in love.
Old 31st December 2010
  #46
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
... My voice sounds good on the Studer. It sounds like crap recorded digitally, even through the same analog console with the same mic. ...
Record your voice, simultaneously onto tape and digitally. Level match and burn both copies to CD, and play them to people who know you personally (have heard you face to face). Ask them to say which track number sounds more like you. Not which one sounds "better", but which one sounds more like you.
Old 31st December 2010
  #47
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Record your voice, simultaneously onto tape and digitally. Level match and burn both copies to CD, and play them to people who know you personally (have heard you face to face). Ask them to say which track number sounds more like you. Not which one sounds "better", but which one sounds more like you.
Hell, ask 'em both questions. I'll bet they can't even tell the difference in a/b/x testing, assuming good gear all around.
Old 31st December 2010
  #48
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Chris Parsons's Avatar
 

How can kids be expected to care about laws so insignificant as piracy when they are shown daily examples by our society and government that much more important laws are meaningless? This problem is much bigger than the music industry. If we are ever able to return to simpler times when the law meant something than this problem will work itself out.

How about some irony...A 16 year old kid "steals" a rap CD that glorifies stealing, gangs, breaking the law, etc.... I can't believe some of the "artists" on the Top 40 that are only a step above bags of trash on the side of the road. It's time for some better role models.
Old 31st December 2010
  #49
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
No. I'm not leaving this thread now because axioms 2 and 3 are utter bullshyte.
Well then, you're just too cool to party.........
Old 31st December 2010
  #50
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathawkes View Post
It's really hard to put a price tag on something that can be so easily acquired at the push of a button. Someone made a good point earlier that the purchase of music should be made easier than the theft of music.
Downloading torrents is a little more involved than the push of a button. There is no preview or anything, so you have to already have searched out what you want to steal somewhere else and then go find a torrent, then download it to your client software, THEN you can listen to it for free.

There are a dozen good sites, including artists webpages where you can preview the music on that page and download it literally with the click of a button.

Try again, this is a sh!tty argument.
Old 31st December 2010
  #51
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
but to spin a scenario that "quality music will end" because of it is really sort of preposterous
I agree.
This is about the only thing that Chris and I disagree on in the debate.
Old 31st December 2010
  #52
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Parsons View Post
... I can't believe some of the "artists" on the Top 40 that are only a step above bags of trash on the side of the road. It's time for some better role models.
You may recall your parents (or their parents) saying the same thing about rock'n'roll.
Old 31st December 2010
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatgtrguy View Post
I think you can persuade people that brushing and flossing have value. teeth are tangible. There's a real downside to not having teeth.

I think you can persuade people that changing your oil every 3000 miles has value. A car is tangible, there's a real downside to your engine seizing in the middle of nowhere.

I think it's much harder to convince people that there's tangible value in a 3 minute song.

And in more concrete terms a cup of coffee is more than four times more valuable than a song these days.

You can't dictate values. You can only try to understand where the culture's value system currently exists and work within it.
That's funny. Ha-ha-ha. You should try for a career in standup.

People saw plenty of value in 3 minute songs until assholes started ripping them off and distributing them for free over the internet.

Nobody would buy a cup of coffee if thieves were giving them away on every street corner.

People value music or they would not download it. People value music A LOT. People do not steal things they don't value. People ignore those things.

For example, people do not usually steal sand, because they don't generally value it. Howerver when somebody is repairing a concrete floor in a restaurant kitchen in the middle of the night (because the restaurant has to be open in the daytime) and they run out of sand they might actually steal sand out of the sandbox in the park playground across the street because suddenly that sand has value. And they can't buy any because the hardware stores are closed. Don't laugh too hard, I've actually seen that happen.

If a thief steals a bicycle it's not because the bicycle has no value. It has value - to its owner and to the thief.

If there's a riot and the rioters break into a shoe store and steal all the jogging shoes it doesn't mean the shoes have no value. The rioters don't pay for them but they're not worth any less.
Old 31st December 2010
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
but there may and might be a new world coming, the one we've had visions of, coming in peace, coming in joy, coming in love.
I honestly agree with much of what you write.
My one disagreement stems from the fact you seem to see being lucky enough to have a regular client, and doing work on spec, hoping to get paid at some point - is a new business model, or even the future.
I was doing that 10, 20 years ago.
You 'track and mix' bands because you like them and want to wish them well. Then you go on to conclude:
Quote:
no wonder I don't fit into your guys' paradigm, everything I do is exactly the opposite of the way things used to work.
Seriously, that's the way it's always been when you have no power in a relationship.
When I wanted to get into bands in 1980, I did plenty of free gigs, sometimes even free recordings. Of course I preferred it if I loved the music, loved the people (and wanted to wish them well in fact). If you don't do those things, you don't do much at all. I suspect that's your situation.
When I wanted to pack in touring and write music for film & television, i worked on numerous projects pro-bono, in fact flat out free. I needed experience, and i needed a showreel with clients and music to show others.
I regularly do work now for free. Usually for long time friends who I know couldn't afford to pay me anyway. That's my choice, not a reality forced on me by market forces (for example piracy).
Someone somewhere is going to make money out of music, whether it's the composer, the label, the illegal website, the tech company like Apple. If the future is pro-bono then most of us are being played for chumps.
Musicians fought for years for a fair share of music income.
Piracy has bypassed that 'paradigm' somewhat, but money is still being made off our backs...... by tech companies, isp's, mp3 and cell phone makers.
Old 31st December 2010
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundrick View Post
I agree.
This is about the only thing that Chris and I disagree on in the debate.
I said less quality, LESS.
Old 31st December 2010
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Nothing "new" but in every way tuning into the times... I would like to think... now that you mention it... the "bands" I work with are all generally pro bono affairs, which I track and mix solely because I like them and wish them well...

These guys are getting a bit of airplay themselves, as retro an act as you could imagine, an acoustic blues duo...

Naughty Song -- Holly & Evan.mp3 - 4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download

So no wonder I don't fit into your guys' paradigm, everything I do is exactly the opposite of the way things used to work.
Nice song. Could have been a lot better with a professional producer to get a great, rather than merely a competent, performance out of the singer.

Which perfectly illustrates my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
It is not expensive to create and record great music. It is more expensive to create great recordings, yes, but even that is cheaper now.

All it takes to record great music is a mic and a recorder, and someone talented performing.

It doesn't take a lot of money to write great music. Talent is free, though practice takes time.
See my comments to Joel above.

It's very good. It could have been great.
Old 31st December 2010
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
It is not expensive to create and record great music. It is more expensive to create great recordings, yes, but even that is cheaper now.

All it takes to record great music is a mic and a recorder, and someone talented performing.
It really depends on the music.
Obviously great music is great music. The actual recording is a different entity.
I've seen potentially great music dumbed down by budget constraints.
This happens all the time in film & tv.
TV production companies have become used to the virtual musician and sampling, and cut their music budget to reflect that.
In the end you have a show that's been edited to Mozart, Steve Reich and Radiohead. Then you're given a couple of thousand dollars and a couple of weeks to do something so similar the show doesn't suffer.
The VST string orchestras, the VST drum programmes and the plug-in guitar simulators are getting better, quite amazing in fact, but they also quite obviously don't sound like the real thing. Nor does a solo operator working at home have the benefit of a real guitarist, or drummer, or orchestrator inputting their advice and improving the music as a result.
I've sat in an audio suite and been told we need a trumpet and flute sequence for the show. I've replied there is no money in the budget to pay for two real musicians and been told I should find something on my midi keyboard that sounds similar to trumpet and flute. This is one of the reasons I got out of film & tv. The artistic compromise was just way too big, at least on the lower end projects where I mostly worked.
You'll note that the flagship BBC projects all feature real orchestral scores (the BBC Concert Orchestra). Would they bother to do that if VST's were a no compromise, no discernible difference option?
So I can see both sides.....
Essentially yes, great music will and has been recorded in a bedroom on a stereo cassette machine. On the other hand, as a business reality, recording on lower budgets in compromised spaces will often yield less great results, if the music as written requires a different method of recording.
In short, we shouldn't resort to one type of music that can survive the one mic, home recording budget, just because piracy forces us to.
Old 31st December 2010
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
I do not want to be the one to shatter your preconceptions, and if I was wedded to vintage, expensive stuff, was used to its quirks and only comfortable in its presence, and convinced that nothing else would do, then that would be a resounding that. Except for the troubling that... when me and a zillion cats like me find radio programmers perfectly happy with our "oh my God you are kidding!" equipment lists, then, well, that's just then.

Nearly everything goes through Syteks onto an HD24, mixed down in Digital Performer. Most expensive mics are a pair of Earthworks QTC-30's. I know you read this... please, just stop weeping!
Not exactly entry level gear. Not super expensive, but definitely not entry level. HD24 isn't bad for an inexpensive location rig. It is, however, not a prosumer converter box from Banjo Center and to equate it with such is a bit disingenuous...... and Earthworks mics are head and shoulders above anything entry level - and lots of stuff that isn't. And surely you don't pretend that Systek makes prosumer gear? They do Neotek, fer chrissake!

The main drawback to the HD24 is the sample rate, which is limited to 44.1 and 48kHz. Is yours the XR version? I wouldn't mind picking up an HD24XR for a location recorder.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Do you ever feel like someone who was on the wrong side at the fall of Rome?

You can lump every computer-based project, from pre-teen in a basement on up, dismiss them all as deluded and worthless, and cling to a very particular tried-and-true methodology, no one is going to breathe a word to try to convince you otherwise... but there may and might be a new world coming, the one we've had visions of, coming in peace, coming in joy, coming in love.
Oh, god..... we went through the whole peace, joy, and love thing in the '60s and look how that turned out........
Old 31st December 2010
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Record your voice, simultaneously onto tape and digitally. Level match and burn both copies to CD, and play them to people who know you personally (have heard you face to face). Ask them to say which track number sounds more like you. Not which one sounds "better", but which one sounds more like you.
I recommend to you the quotations by the late Dr. Richard Heyser of JPL, known as the father of modern audio measurement contained in this post.

The Womb - View Single Post - Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

The comments by the poster concerning Ethan are beside the point for our purposes here.

And we're getting pretty far off topic, anyway.
Old 31st December 2010
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundrick View Post
I agree.
This is about the only thing that Chris and I disagree on in the debate.
Again - I refer you to the recording Joel posted - beautiful song, obviously talented singer, lackluster performance that could have been so much better with the help of an experienced producer.

Sad, really.
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