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1.2 billion illegal music downloads in 2010 a record Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 29th December 2010
  #241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
You know intimately the immediate environment you're operating in. But working in one sector of an industry doesn't magically give you an in-depth understanding of all of the factors affecting that industry. Spending a month in the executive offices of a large record company will give you a quite different view. Or in the accounting office, or in rights management... I haven't done it at a record company, but I have at a software company. The phrase "blind men describing an elephant" comes to mind.
I associate at various times with people in various aspects of the industry, although not as much as I used to.

However, my lawyer (Barry Simons), one of the top music business attorneys on the West Coast, does, in fact, deal with people across the industry on a daily basis, from the heads of record companies to indie musicians playing local clubs, from touring stars to the owners of bars, from accountants (LOTS of accountants) to rights management specialists, from promoters big and small to other lawyers and you know something? His take is that the entire industry has been utterly ruined by internet piracy. His specific words to me were "You know there's no industry left."

If there's anyone with an eagle's eye view of the entire industry it's him.
Old 29th December 2010
  #242
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Sorry Don, but you are becoming one of the worst culprits.
Firstly, you aren't in the industry, and yet you take almost every opportunity to question the validity of our argument here. From what basis in real world experience?
From my experiences as a "wage slave", middle manager and running my own small business. Note that I don't tell you how to write or play music. I don't even tell you how to develop software, which is something I did profitably for several years. I just comment where I see things differently than you do. Make of it what you will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
So I'd give your above post 0/10 for accuracy and contribution I'm afraid
Thank you. I'll strive to do better.
Old 29th December 2010
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm sorry but this is once again bollox borne out of inexperience in the subject we are talking about.
Bollox? It never happened? You then go on to say you have personal knowledge that it did happen. You also say that it's pretty much unknown nowadays, and I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I mean you guys are literally living in the 70's still!
If that were the case, I wouldn't have prefaced my remarks with "In the old days". The 70's were a good period for me, but with the benefit of hindsight I see no reason to want to return there.
Old 29th December 2010
  #244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
In the old days "you" (the generic "you") never complained that you never saw a cent from your record because it was all swallowed by record company advances. They may have been the good old days, but they were the bad old days too.
Some artists are/were stupid. That's their own damn fault, not the fault of the record company or the "industry".

Boo-hoo for the poor artist who doesn't understand the difference between "advance" and "gift".........
Old 29th December 2010
  #245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
The question was, if a given number of illegal downloads had been blocked, how many more legal downloads would there have been in the same period? The 1.2 billion figure was used as an example because it was cited in the thread title, but the actual number is not required to answer the question.
Well, if sales are down by 60% and 80-90% of illegal downloading was blocked then one could expect that close to that missing 60% would return, because the remaining downloads would almost certainly represent die-hard pirates who wouldn't be customers anyway. In fact, due to market growth I'd actually expect sales to increase a bit MORE than the missing 60%. In fact there's a good chance you'd see that gain if significantly less that that number od downloads were blocked, but that's just conjecture because it depends on what the tipping point is for piracy not to be attractive to the potential customer and just how large the number of downloads attributable to die-hard pirate "collectors" actually is. If, as I suspect, a disproportionately small number of "collectors" are responsible for the overwhelming majority of downloads which do not represent lost sales, then you'd see restoration of most, if not all lost sales much sooner, perhaps if as few as 40-50% of illegal downloads were blocked.

Quote:
Even if piracy is stopped tomorrow, the old days aren't coming back. Which you can live with, provided something viable replaces them. I don't have an answer. I wish I did, so I could get rich...
I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. There would certainly be a lot more money available for artist development and tour support.

As far as "getting rich" goes, the only ones who actually get rich in the music biz are the ones who have a good accountant and investment broker.
Old 29th December 2010
  #246
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
For those who are intellectually dishonest, or intentionally obtuse due to personal bias there will never be an argument good enough to connect these two data sets - despite it being clearly obvious that one is effecting the other.
And then:

From John:
Quote:
Any "studies", especially those based on size limited sample respondents or subjective questionnaires/interviews are beside the point; they might have some limited sociological interest in gauging people's attitudes, but they don't actually reflect any FACTS.
From Chris:
Quote:
Hmm, like I've said about ten times now. Look at the scientific methodology. You say it like it's a worldwide study with vast resources and a wide body sitting on the peer review board.
No, its a few economics post graduates studying a couple of thousand students from the same university. Not super scientific IMHO.
In "lives for Fuzz" case:

Quote:
really? there's scientific proof that is conclusive?
So yea, I'll agree about the "intellectually dishonest" thing. heh

Always a million excuses why the studies are not accurate... yet nothing specific. Again, if you have better data, bring it.

I'm still waiting for better data... hmm.... should I hold my breath?
Old 29th December 2010
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
...
However, my lawyer (Barry Simons) ...
If there's anyone with an eagle's eye view of the entire industry it's him.
Does he have a blog, or a regular client newsletter? Pure curiosity, I try to read as many different views as I can.

To clear the air:
- I accept that copyright infringement is having a serious and maybe fatal impact on the music production industry. I do not accept either side's figures on the actual amount of the infringement and its significance in relation to other possible causes of the decline.

- Copyright infringement is making it harder for me to find music that I like, on the media I prefer. I can see myself having to change my music buying habits, just as I feel the music production industry will have to find new viable models for producing and selling their product.
Old 29th December 2010
  #248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Bollox? It never happened?
OK, so I have to spell it out....
Yes it has happened, and it happened more about 30+ years ago.
I think we are talking about the now, certainly talking about piracy with the hindsight of the last 20 or so years.
!980's onwards perhaps, at least some reality after the punk, new wave and independent label revolution came along.

No, I'm not telling you how to do your business, but you (and others) are claiming I don't understand my own business, and I'm only seeing one tiny aspect of it (the ants view). Come on. It's wrong and rather rude I'd say.

Have any of you guys been in a signed band, privy to the discussions on advances and how they get spent?
Have any of you played on more than one young band's debut recording, and sat in the studio control room while they chat amongst themselves, chat with the producer, with their manager and A&R person?
Really, I think it's clear some of you who think you know more than you do.
Old 29th December 2010
  #249
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Always a million excuses why the studies are not accurate... yet nothing specific.

Can you get more specific than 412 university students polled to understand a global issue?
Can you get more specific than a study of Napster and another study of CD sales ten years ago being irrelevant to the piracy debate in 2011?

All you're doing is making childish tit for tat points back at us, but you just can't admit (maybe even to yourself) that these studies are utterly worthless.
If it's such relevant data for you, please tell us how a study of defunct Napster, CD sales in 2001, and of 400 American students is so important. Pleeeese.

What was that SF radio station again, I must have missed that post?
Old 29th December 2010
  #250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post

- Copyright infringement is making it harder for me to find music that I like, on the media I prefer.
'Harder'?
Seems like there's more available now than there ever was.
I certainly remember people searched for years to find rare or out of print albums 10 or 20 years ago.

I'd love to be sympathetic to your cause, but I find the tactic of claiming we are biased and/or unaware of the realities in our music business rather lame.

(you cause being the collective 'your')
Old 29th December 2010
  #251
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
All you're doing is making childish tit for tat points back at us, but you just can't admit (maybe even to yourself) that these studies are utterly worthless.
Please Chris. Worthless?? Good lord, you proved my point for me.

Quote:
What was that SF radio station again, I must have missed that post?
Ya, you must have.

I must have missed all that new evidence you have provided. heh
Old 29th December 2010
  #252
So I see silly points are the order of the day.
I just wanted to ascertain that you really do value these old studies that are often researching defunct aspects of the business (Napster and arguably CD's).

As always, my resume and daily workings are out there for anyone who wants to know, but when you put forward your radio experience in SF as equal music biz experience, you are very vague, and dodge the opportunity to fill in the details at least three times.
So what are we to make of that?
Old 29th December 2010
  #253
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
And then:

From John:


From Chris:


In "lives for Fuzz" case:



So yea, I'll agree about the "intellectually dishonest" thing. heh

Always a million excuses why the studies are not accurate... yet nothing specific. Again, if you have better data, bring it.

I'm still waiting for better data... hmm.... should I hold my breath?
Man, are you frustrating! I could hold a fish in front of you and you'd swear it's a cow!

Your "studies are not accurate because:

1.)The methodology involved was screwed, in a variety of ways depending on the study,

2.)The data sets involved are too small

3.)The data is out of date

4.)At least one of the "studies was a study of other "studies", not real research at all

5.)The subjects in several of thew studies had clear motives for being less than forthright

6.) It's impossible to prove the premise on the basis of the data collected, even if all the other problems didn't exist.

7.) Whatever other problems I forgot. 6 is enough, anyway.

As far as "better data" we've been holding it under your nose and slapping you upside the head with it and you still refuse to acknowledge it.

Piracy is up - 1.2 billion downloads in the UK alone, lord knows how many more in the USA.

Sales are down by more than 60% relative to pre- piracy levels.

What other DATA do you need?

It appears that the only "data" you'll accept is "data" that has been pre-digested and massaged to fit your preconceptions. That's not data. That's spin, as in "spin doctor".

You want "data" that fits your preconceived "facts". You're not willing to accept FACTS that fit the raw, undoctored DATA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso
All you're doing is making childish tit for tat points back at us, but you just can't admit (maybe even to yourself) that these studies are utterly worthless.
Please Chris. Worthless?? Good lord, you proved my point for me.
Yes, worthless. See above.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What was that SF radio station again, I must have missed that post?
Ya, you must have.
Was it KALX or KFJC?
Quote:
I must have missed all that new evidence you have provided. heh
Again, see above.
Old 29th December 2010
  #254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Does he have a blog, or a regular client newsletter? Pure curiosity, I try to read as many different views as I can.
No, he's a music lawyer, not a media queen. His statements were made to me in the course of a consultation concerning trying to get my band off the ground, as well as less formal conversations.
Old 29th December 2010
  #255
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Honestly, there's no reason to go there any more. I certainly understand where you are coming from, and you understand where I'm coming from. Sorry I disagree with you.

Yes, bring on more personal attacks.

Last edited by nuthinupmysleeve; 29th December 2010 at 09:00 AM.. Reason: no reason
Old 29th December 2010
  #256
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
From John:
Quote:
Piracy is up - 1.2 billion downloads in the UK alone, lord knows how many more in the USA.

Sales are down by more than 60% relative to pre- piracy levels.
That doesn't say how much of the impact is caused by piracy, because as I keep repeating, there are many other factors that have happened at the same time.
And as I have REPEATEDLY pointed out all of those "other factors" are either the direct result of piracy or nothing new that never affected the industry before the advent of widespread piracy on the internet.

HEY, MAN - IT'S A FISH, NOT A COW!

Man, you cling to your misconceptions like a barnacle.......
Old 29th December 2010
  #257
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
And as I have REPEATEDLY pointed out all of those "other factors" are either the direct result of piracy or nothing new that never affected the industry before the advent of widespread piracy on the internet.
Much of it happened at the same time, obviously, John. The internet itself as a new entertainment outlet happens whether piracy exists or not, as it already started to be a significant entertainment outlet before piracy. Music video on demand (the rise of which also seems to coincide with the increased speed of connections) is an obvious example. The current economic conditions (especially of a couple of years ago) obviously MUST have had an impact as well. The availability of online radio which makes much more music available that is tailored to specific tastes (last.fm, pandora, shoutcast, etc).

I know... you'll call it a cow instead of a fish, and find something else in an attempt to be insulting, right?
Old 29th December 2010
  #258
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uncle duncan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
...Yes, bring on more personal attacks.
Music piracy is a personal attack on the people who make music. Being a music piracy apologist is a personal attack on the people who make music. If you're going to personally attack an entire industry, you shouldn't be surprised at the reaction you get.
Old 29th December 2010
  #259
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
I know... you'll call it a cow instead of a fish, and find something else in an attempt to be insulting, right?
All you have is a personal hunch. then you cling to arbitrary data.
You claim you've had experiences, but they are different to mine, but your experience remains clouded in mystery, obviously because you don't want to detail it.

I think you should ask yourself why you spend so much time countering people who actually do face the piracy threat, and are actually still surviving in the business despite the piracy threat.
This idea that professionals with 20, 30, 40 years experience don't see the big picture, or are somehow stumbling through their professional lives uninformed is quite honestly laughable.
End of story.
Old 29th December 2010
  #260
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle duncan View Post
Being a music piracy apologist
Perfect. Witch hunt anyone? How dare I disagree... Why think for myself when I have y'all to do it for me?
Old 29th December 2010
  #261
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
All you have is a personal hunch. then you cling to arbitrary data.
How many 'end of stories' are there? Yet you keep going on and on.

Call it whatever you want chris. You don't have any new data. When you do, we can talk about it. End of story. heh
Old 29th December 2010
  #262
Like I've said, I'm not exactly 'going on and on'. You keep going on with your crusade and I keep jumping in on those discussions to hopefully keep them honest.
Why the focus on me having any 'new data', when you don't have any new data, or even relevant data, your not affected by piracy, you've never been in a signed band, you've never been in the music business, you have a vague unsupported role at some radio station for however long.
So why ask me for anything, when your own background doesn't support having any serious insight on piracy, let alone the weight to contradict those here who do.
Old 29th December 2010
  #263
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
I know... you'll call it a cow instead of a fish, and find something else in an attempt to be insulting, right?
No insult is intended. Seriously.

If there is any insult involved it is your utter refusal to face the facts.
Old 29th December 2010
  #264
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
How many 'end of stories' are there? Yet you keep going on and on.

Call it whatever you want chris. You don't have any new data. When you do, we can talk about it. End of story. heh
Hey psalad, I'm callin' you out. You're in the S.F. Bay Area - meet me at the Fishbowl bar, 1854 Divisadero St. on any Monday after bar trivia is over at 10:30-11 PM any Monday. I'll be the guy who looks EXACTLY like my avatar. If you can't spot me, ask the bartender for "Johnny".;

Edit: This is intended in an entirely non-threatening way - It would just be nice to be able to talk face to face instead of going around and around on the internet. First round's on me. (Thanks to Fuzz for pointing out that it could be misinterpreted.)
Old 29th December 2010
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
'Harder'?
Seems like there's more available now than there ever was.
I certainly remember people searched for years to find rare or out of print albums 10 or 20 years ago.
Reality, in my country at least, doesn't match your perception. The amount of bin space is shrinking, not growing. Shops are closing. The CD selection online is better, but the cost generally rules out buying unheard. Many older albums have been re-released but sonically destroyed by being remastered to current tastes. About the only thing that is easier is finding rare / out of print stuff, due to the world-wide market offered by the Internet. I recall scanning the lists in publications like Record Collector and arranging overseas funds transfer, and I don't care to go back there. That's irrelevant to you anyway, it's not first sale business.

- A friend of mine, a musician and record store owner for 30 years, closed his shop 2 years ago.
- Borders, shut down their CD section.
- Marbecks, been in the business over 75 years, closing out their CD section. Over the past couple of years they bought 2 other chains that were going under.
- The Warehouse, some new CDs, specialise in buying up remaindered / closeout stock and putting it in bargain bins.
- The only bright spot is JB Hifi, who make an effort to maintain a full catalogue presence. They charge full price (about US$26) for most albums, which I don't begrudge them so long as they maintain their catalogue. (It just means I buy fewer discs.)
Old 29th December 2010
  #266
Well as you said earlier, infringement is making it harder to find a varied selection of music.
Certainly piracy is doing nothing at all to encourage more record stores to open, more people to sell music by mail order (reasonably priced), and probably nothing to encourage the owners of rare albums to re-release them and see them copied onto torrent sites overnight.
Old 29th December 2010
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Well as you said earlier, infringement is making it harder to find a varied selection of music.
Certainly piracy is doing nothing at all to encourage more record stores to open, more people to sell music by mail order (reasonably priced), and probably nothing to encourage the owners of rare albums to re-release them and see them copied onto torrent sites overnight.
Nothing to argue about there, except that the horse has already bolted on the "rare albums on torrent sites". I don't see this as a bad thing in itself, people who collect rare albums tend to want the physical object, and use the downloadable content to decide if they like the album or not.

Personally, I've never used a torrent site. I prefer fan sites, where people take the trouble to review and discuss the music. I already have most of the music that I know I want, what I'm looking for are recommendations and auditions of music that I don't yet know I want. Including music from my youth, such as the stuff mentioned here:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post...just-evolution

(Tony Murdoch is the friend I mentioned earlier)
Old 30th December 2010
  #268
Often rare albums are 'owned' by poor artists in need of a buck.
If there was a secure way for them to sell, via their own website, or a small indie label (like Wounded Bird or Renascent), they'd all be better off.
I've bought previously out of print Fusion albums from a small (legal and official) online source, plus previously out of print New Wave albums.
The money goes to the artist.
The bloggers and torrenters of course are fans of the obscure albums, but aren't funding the forgotten artist.
Old 30th December 2010
  #269
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Well as you said earlier, infringement is making it harder to find a varied selection of music.
Certainly piracy is doing nothing at all to encourage more record stores to open, more people to sell music by mail order (reasonably priced), and probably nothing to encourage the owners of rare albums to re-release them and see them copied onto torrent sites overnight.
I've got news for you - they're already on the torrent sites.

Well, it probably wasn't news, was it?

So if it's already available to the public in a crappy MP3 version, why not make a little money by making it available on CD?

Actually I'm amazed by the number of rare records that have been re-released in recent years. I found 2 albums I'd been searching for for years on Amazon - "SF Sorrow" by the Pretty Things (arguably the first rock opera and a real tour de force, it didn't sell because it was so relentlessly depressing - which didn't cut it in the hippie era. Way ahead of its time....) and "Oar" by Alexander "Skip" Spence, which was one of the first albums on which one person played all the instrument and received NO push from the record company - it was remaindered after being out only a couple of months and was so rare that Skipper himself didn't have a copy.
Old 30th December 2010
  #270
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Hey psalad, I'm callin' you out.
There's no real need to "call me out" as several people on this board know who I am, I've even offered to do some free work for them (so far no takers). I've responded by PM.
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