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Berlin Studio Build
Old 26th April 2013
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Berlin Studio Build

Hello, I'm starting construction on my studio here in Berlin in a couple of weeks time - I'm still tweaking the plans and budgeting and re-budgeting the work, but I feel it's getting somewhere at last!

It's a 70m2 workshop on the ground floor in the back yard of a big old Berlin townhouse. It has 3.9m ceilings, very thick walls, and to me the layout should work very well as a studio. There is a solid concrete/brick 12m2 raised area in one corner of the main room which I intend to turn into a raised control room (should be able to get around 2.4m ceiling height in there), I've always loved studios where you have a birds-eye view of the proceedings!

The space also has a large bathroom/shower area, and being an echo chamber fanatic, with a bit of tiling/lacquering I think it has potential to sound immense!

There's a small through lobby between the main room and the bathroom, which I think would be perfect as a little booth/amp closet.

I have been renovating houses and doing carpentry work for 10 years or so to supplement my sometimes meagre musical earnings so I don't think I'll have too much trouble with the construction. And hopefully the lure of a kibbutz style, beer and currywurst fuelled working holiday to Berlin might entice a few of my handier pals over here during the build!

My main concern right now is that the space has a false ceiling fitted, presumably as some sort of soundproofing for whatever was happening in the space previously (I'm guessing some sort of machinery by the looks of the place, perhaps printing?), so the existing ceiling construction is a bit of a mystery.

The building really is incredibly solid, it's well over 100 years old, the walls are thick and massive, so I don't see that the ceiling should be too different. I'm not assuming that the ceiling is made out of concrete/brick too, it's currently covered completely by the soundproofing, so I won't know until I get in there and start work in 2 weeks time, but I will be very surprised if it isn't pretty hefty.

I'm encouraged by the ropiness of the existing soundproofing too. It's tongue and groove wooden cladding with loft insulation above, but it has a good 3 inch gap all the way around the edge. So I figure that if that was good enough to placate the person living upstairs at the time, then some well thought out proper soundproofing should work just fine for my purposes.

I've used Rod Gervais' excellent book as my guide for how to construct the walls etc. but I'm unsure of a few details which I'd be very grateful if anyone had any ideas about before I start. Also I'd really appreciate any general comments on the design which anyone feels compelled to offer!

This is the space as it looks now:

And this is the current plan, with proposed wall construction, studs roughly marked for material estimation:

And another with the ceiling joists:

My first question concerns the beam I'm going to put across the live room ceiling. I'm unsure as to whether a wooden beam (i.e bolted double 2X10) or a steel would be best from a soundproofing standpoint. My instinct say the wood would be better, but I'd like to be sure.

Secondly, would it be of any benefit to the system for me to bond insulation to the ceiling before I construct the wood frame etc. Thereby making the new ceiling and old ceiling section: Triple plasterboard>Wood frame w/insulation>Air gap>Insulation>Existing ceiling mass:

Also in the above image, would plasterboard/firecaulk/rockwool firestops implemented as shown be sufficient?

I'm also debating whether or not to have green glue inbetween all three layers of plasterboard. I'm sure it will help, but I'm estimating €1400 per layer of GG and I'd be interested to hear if anyone thinks it would make enough of a difference to be worth doing.

Last one! As you can see in the photos the space has beautiful big windows down one side, naturally I'd like to keep as much daylight as possible, so I'm planning to make the existing windows as airtight as i can and then have as thick a piece of laminated glass as I can afford in each window alcove as part of the freestanding wall structure. As far as I understand from what I read in Rod's book and here on Gearslutz, that will keep it a double leaf system and should offer me decent isolation.
My question is will there be much difference if the new piece of glass is 8" from the original window or 14"?

Peace and LG

Old 26th April 2013
Lives for gear
gullfo's Avatar

looks like a nice space! on the beam question - base it on the structural needs - presumably the steel beam will provide the necessary support over that span then you should use it. assuming the beam will be supported on your inner isolation walls, there should not be an isolation impact. with all this - make sure you get input from a structural engineer - the new rooms will be heavy. on the windows - the wider air gap would be preferred.
Old 26th April 2013
Lives for gear
DirkB's Avatar
Very cool space.

My advice: hire a professional to design the rooms. The result will be much better, especially on the acoustics side and it will save you money - really.

Anyway, best of luck.


PS I'd make the control room a lot bigger...
Old 27th April 2013
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Thanks very much for your replies chaps, and for the sound advice. Glenn, I will certainly be involving a structural engineer, I suppose I've been trying to go as far as I can on my own just to get some costs together, but I'm sure German building regs will insist on that!

Dirk, it would be great to get some input from a studio designer. I've got a very limited budget for this, I think I assumed that it would be prohibitively expensive to do so. Maybe I could find someone who would be happy to act as consultant for an hourly rate?

I'll see if I can find someone!


Old 6th April 2014 | Show parent
Here for the gear
schubertstudio's Avatar

From Studio Designer

HI, my name is Alexander Schubert. If you still need studio designer in Berlin, I would like to help with studio praning & building, if I'm not too late now). I'm sound engineer but last 4 years working as acousic engineer, found my own small busines with acousic diffusers and other panels production.
I'm moving to Berlin in this month or may, I have plan to build studio there and so I'm looking for partner in studio work. I would talk about it via email. I have website but now it's in translating stage. I attach some pistures .[email protected]
All the best , Alexander
Attached Thumbnails
Berlin Studio Build-img_6542.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-img_6546.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-img_6533.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-img_6549.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-img_8166.jpg  

Old 13th January 2015
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Hello, it has been a while.. well, the space at the beginning of the thread ended up falling through at the last minute.. on my way to sign the contract I got a call from the agent saying the owners had changed their minds and no longer wanted a musician in the space.. uggh..

Ah well, I kept looking and have now found and signed a 10 year lease on an even bigger place.

It's a ground floor workshop, with a separate room which also has it's own entrance. I'm renting that to a friend who is going to soundproof it and then occasionally use my main room when he needs to record live instruments. I'm thinking about building a booth between him and me, so he can record an amp if he needs to, add an extra layer of soundproofing between him and me, and allow me to have live vocals if I'm doing a big band session for example.

I initially planned to soundproof the entire space, but I have had 2 acoustic engineers come around now - The first guy who came around immediately started talking about floating concrete slabs etc.. I think he was a bit high end for me really. He said €70k.

The second guy was talking about metal stud walls with floating ceilings hanging from the existing brick ceiling.. he also described his method of wall construction which I could only see would result in a triple leaf setup. Basically it would be (inside to out): double plasterboard | 100mm metal stud with 75mm semi rigid insulation | double plasterboard (fixed to the same metal stud) | 50mm air gap | metal stud w/insulation | double plasterboard. I tried to say that I had seen countless times that that was understood to be less efficient isolation than a double leaf system but he didn't agree.. He said his system relied on using some kind of rubber compound at the top of the wall to 'glue' it to the ceiling, and sylomer pads along the bottom, so that basically the wall was decoupled from the floor and ceiling and therefore it would achieve damping characteristics. It just seemed really complicated to me, so I have since decided to stick to what I know and build out of timber, following the guidelines in Rod's book and on here..

This will not be a commercial studio, it will be only for projects that I work on myself, so I figured I could potentially design something which shouldn't cost a fortune and allow me to use the space with a few compromises. I have a budget of around €20k, can do a lot of the work myself, and have friends who will work for a good rate when I'm unavailable.

There is an artists studio upstairs, he is a really nice guy (for now), and assures me that during the day he is completely fine with music in the main live room beneath him.. I mainly do 50s/60s/70s kind of stuff anyway, real instruments, horns/strings etc. so hopefully it shouldn't be too bad.. It has a really nice atmosphere as it is with the columns and brick ceiling.. I'll see how it goes, if I need to soundproof the ceiling in a couple of years time then I should have some more money together by then.

For now, I'm going to do a serious overhaul of the ceiling, cementing up/acoustic caulking any gaps/cracks I can find etc, generally make it as solid as I can, and see how it goes. I'll focus my soundproofing efforts on the control room and booth, that way I should be able to record drums etc at more unsociable hours if I need to.

I just wanted to put my current plans up here, to invite any comments/criticism/ideas etc.

My main thoughts are to do with the control room 1, it's kind of the best way I could come up with to have a symmetrical design, and also a decent size.. I know it's still not huge but it feels like it could work. I'm just unsure of how to measure for modes etc. with a weirdly shaped room like that.. do I go off the longest 2 measurements or some kind of average? I guess it's probably very hard to say actually! Does it look okay?

I'm planning on 2x6's on 60 cm centres for the control room and big booth stud walls as they will be supporting the new ceilings in those rooms. I figure 2x4's will be sufficient for the outer and partition walls in the rest of the space as they will not be load bearing.

I was also planning on doing a 'poor man's floating' floor in the control room and booth along the lines that Rod Gervais suggests in a few threads on here.. slabs of rigid insulation with double plywood/gg on top.. my question is if I am going to do this, should I be building my stud walls on top of neoprene/rubber? Here in Germany there is a product called Sylomer which the 2nd acoustic engineer said I really needed under the walls. It's really expensive and I'm unsure whether I need it or not.

If I do put something under the walls, can I just sit the new box on top? Surely putting fixings through to the floor would negate the point of it being there?

I understand that usually on a concrete/ground floor slab it would be unnecessary to treat the floor, but there is a cellar underneath the half of the space which has the control room/booth. It's just full of junk, and no one will ever be there, but I wanted to try and minimise impact transmission from, say a drum kit in the booth, out into the live room or into the control room. The existing floor is a reinforced concrete slab, feels very solid, but if I stamp on it at that end of the room I can hear some hollow resonance..

I would massively appreciate any feedback from anyone!

Thanks very much in advance.
Attached Thumbnails
Berlin Studio Build-hochhorns.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-_7005596.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-_7005605.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Studio Plan Jan 13.pdf (322.3 KB, 339 views)
Old 14th January 2015
Gear Maniac

Hi - Nice design.

Forget the 2nd guy.

But I'd be a bit worried about the twin angled windows in the control room but it's a neat idea but acoustically you are essentially bouncing the sound off the glass right at the 'sweet stop' by the desk - not ideal!
Old 14th January 2015
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Hi Jon, thanks, glad you think it looks okay..!

I guess I should expect a more high-spec approach from engineers here in Germany.. It seems people really don't use timber for studwork here so much any more..

I was thinking that maybe a steep angle on those windows might reflect everything down into the back of the desk? Hmm.. needs some thought, maybe I could make them a bit narrower and move them along the wall a bit.. so you think not to go for the rubber under the walls?
Old 14th January 2015
Gear Maniac

Hi - Well I'd use timber - 6x2 for the stud work. These walls are supporting your ceiling so they need to be strong. Timber is also easier to cut and form odd angles etc and double up for headers etc etc. Just rest your floor plates on Sill Seal (thin foam used in the building industry) . No need for rubber IMHO.

You could bolt the floor plates to the floor - you are not trying to decouple the wall from the slab. The Sill Seal just close's any gap between the timber and concrete. You don't need hundreds of bolts - just say every meter or so. The structure will be massive (several tonnes) so it's unlikely to move anyway. The bolts are just to make sure!

Yes by all means do a 'poor mans' floating floor...

Green glue is a waste of money as you are building a room within a room. Add another layer of plasterboard if you need more isolation, altough I doubt you will if you build it well.

Re: the window - the bigger the air gap the better - I'l go for 14" if you can.

BTW - Your doors and HVAC are going to eat up a lot of your budget - be prepared!

Happy to advise more on an hourly bases - just PM me.


Old 14th January 2015
Gear Addict
Toni-P's Avatar
Awesome to see another place in Berlin being build!
Where are you located? We are in the same building as Noisy Music in the Warschauerstrasse.
Old 14th January 2015
Lives for gear
Dutchy15's Avatar
Wow, finally a medium to large size non-USA build on GS! Looks like you might want to hire Rod Gervais himself, or another acoustician. If you have accurate dimensions of your room and a simple measurement system (REW or Smaart) available, it might be possible to get advise and a design without the acoustician even visiting the room. Here's a couple of guys/company's that designed stuff for studio's on this forum; Jeff Hedback, Rod Gervais, Northward Acoustics, John Brandt.

If you are still planning on doing a "kibbutz style, beer and currywurst fuelled working holiday to Berlin", consider sending me a PM
I was born and raised in a small city near the German border (about 90km west of Osnabrück) and I am currently studying audio engineering in The Hague (a Tonmeister-like course). Although I'm no professional construction worker, I am a DIY guy and I like the construction stuff, building things out of wood etc. I'm in school until July, but if you need help during the summer, count me in!

Old 14th January 2015 | Show parent
Here for the gear
schubertstudio's Avatar

Acoustic Diffusers and Designing

HI, first of all - congratulations! You finally start building your studio. I wuld like to recomend you some of my product such as diffusers and give some advices about how soundproof the walls spending less money, could you send some detailed plan with dimmentions.? possibly direct to my email , I update my website Schubert Studio Akustik Berlin can find there some products you might be interested and projects we did with budgets. As sound engineer and acoustic designer I 've got such question about reducing expences really often, so finily we've got impressive results just with 2 persons and 3 k $ budget for all, while building just 12 sq.m control room and 4 sq.m vocal cabine. last project we realised with 7 Euro it was 50 sq.m room with soundproof and 30 diffuser panels. But first of all there was good planning and calculation work first done by me. Don't hesitake to ask questions. Good luck!
[quote]Schubert Studio Akustik Berlin
Old 14th January 2015
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Hi Jon, timber is definitely the way to go for me.. I already have all the power tools/bandsaw/mitre saw etc so it makes sense.. I'll look into the sill seal..

I have a idea for the ventilation - I'm not planning on going down the full air-con route, too expensive and an absolute killer for my sinuses I'm planning on just some simple inline fans in and out of each room, each leading to the foyer via some baffle boxes.. if it gets super hot in the control room then I'll get a portable air con unit which I can switch on and off when I need to.. not totally ideal, but probably the best my budget allows.

Hopefully I can source some reasonably priced fire doors somewhere and then make a bunch of the super-doors outlined in Rod's book.. been to Poland a couple of times in the last few weeks, only an hour away, getting materials prices etc.. pretty cheap for a lot of things actually..

Thanks for all the other advice!

Hi Toni, it's right next to Humboldthain station.. come and say hello sometime!

Dutchy, thanks for all the information.. it would be amazing to get at least an opinion from Mr. Gervais, I have read his book about 10 times, it's a very useful thing indeed. I was hoping that maybe he'd cast his wisdom over my plans at some point.. let's see!

Hopefully I'll be finished by July, have to be out of my current place by the end of April, need to get going with this asap, but if you fancy a long weekend jaunt to Berlin between now and then, always good to have an extra pair of hands - if you like, send me a message and we can try and work it out..!

Nice one chaps!
Old 14th January 2015
Lives for gear
Dutchy15's Avatar
Hmm, our schedule usually takes all 5 days, but if I can find a long weekend I'll see if I can spend a weekend in Berlin

Old 19th January 2015 | Show parent
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
Hmm, our schedule usually takes all 5 days, but if I can find a long weekend I'll see if I can spend a weekend in Berlin

Nice one Dutchy, you would be very welcome!

Ahhhh I should finally be starting the build this week, hopefully ordering the timber tomorrow, first job is to go through the whole place repairing any holes/cracks in the existing structure - especially in the ceiling, there are a few holes here and there where there were evidently pipes/cables running before. Also a place where an old vent used to run through the wall. I'm planning on packing as much mortar as I can into the big holes, with small temporary formers screwed up to keep the mortar in, then going over it all once it's dried with some acoustic caulk for the smaller cracks/holes etc.

Been researching a lot into insulation/plasterboard too..

I don't know if this will be of any use to anyone, but I found a company in Poland called SIG who seem to be middlemen for the big building materials companies. Seeing as I'm going to be buying palletloads of materials, I think I've got some good prices from them..

Their website has manufacturers pricelists on it, all in Polish, but with a bit of detective work etc, think I've settled on something called AKU-Line by Rigips for the plasterboard. Think it's made especially for the polish market, it's 12kg/m2, pretty big boards, 3000 x 1200, 12.5mm thick, but I can get it for approx 1,30€/m2 which I think is a pretty good price..

and I can get the insulation from them too, Isover/Rockwool etc. Think I'm going to go for Isover Uni-Mata, it has the right density I think (12 kg/m3) and it's around 2,50€/m2.

Still trying to find an equivalent for OC703 for bass traps, under floating floor etc... I'm still not sure I've cracked it, but I found a guy who spoke english at Isover Poland and he recommended Stropoterm.. Likewise a very helpful guy at Rockwool Poland confirmed that they make a version of Rockwool RW3 (recommended elsewhere on GS), called ProRox SL 930CZ which seems like it might be do the job..

Dear gearslutz, what do you think?
Attached Thumbnails
Berlin Studio Build-photo-1.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-photo-2.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-photo-3.jpg  
Old 26th January 2015
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Well, I ended up ordering the timber from Germany, despite valiant efforts from my Polish connection, it turned out to be a very complicated affair.. dealing with sawmills, arranging for the timber to be dried etc. In the end I got a pretty good price from a local Berlin firm, so it arrives tomorrow!

I have been searching for days for some cheap fire doors that I could use to construct some Gervais style super doors.. in Germany fire doors seem to be mostly made from metal, and the 'MassivHolzTüren' I've found all seem to be pretty expensive..

So I started thinking, as I understand it, the job of a studio door is to replace the mass that is lost by putting the door opening in the wall.. so what if you made some very simple panel doors, and filled them with the same amount of plasterboard that you removed..

I'm thinking a simple frame made from 50x50 softwood, a 9mm mdf panel front and back, with 4 layers of plasterboard encapsulated within. It will be damned heavy, around 100 kg, but it should do the job I think, and I should be able to make them for under 100€ a piece..

A quick sketch is at the bottom of the page.. what do you think?
Attached Thumbnails
Berlin Studio Build-door-idea.jpg  
Old 26th January 2015
Gear Maniac

Hi - I would not use dry wall in a door - simple as that. I think long term it will fail given the constant opening and closing - even if it's sealed with MDF.

Try and source a SOLID CORE door and beef that up with extra MDF or Plywood - Or even screw two together. I can't believe Germany do not use them! Maybe 'Fire Door' sent you in the wrong direction.

All you are trying to do is match (or exceed) the mass of your door with the mass of you wall.

Old 26th January 2015
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Hi Jon, thanks for a quick reply! I'm pretty confident in being able to build a very strong frame, and the drywall would be tightly packed in there, no movement, tons of glue on the frame, panels etc, I can't see, other than structural failure of the frame, which I feel would be unlikely, how the drywall would be doing anything other than be taken along for the ride in it's wooden case.. It wouldn't be doing anything structural, even if it was slammed around a bit and cracked, it wouldn't have anywhere to go.. I'm planning on fitting automatic door closers to the doors so there shouldn't be many impact stresses on the doors/construction. I take your point that it would be better to get a solid wood door, but they just seem to be so expensive here, even without the lead etc.. this way I think maybe I wouldn't even need the lead.. Hmm... I know I'm being stubborn!
Old 26th January 2015
Gear Maniac

OK - but are think you are making more work for yourself - but I wish you all the best and look forward to seeing the build progress.

Old 26th January 2015
Gear Maniac are going to have to lip the door with wood - ideally hard wood so you can plane it to fit...or re-fit it once it has expanded or warped - moved or settled.

Old 26th January 2015
If you want a solid heavy door just make it from 3 sheets of 22mm Viroc and trim the edges with wood.

Viroc - Investwood - Advantages

Old 29th January 2015 | Show parent
Originally Posted by Morceror View Post
Well, I ended up ordering the timber from Germany, despite valiant efforts from my Polish connection, it turned out to be a very complicated affair.. dealing with sawmills, arranging for the timber to be dried etc. In the end I got a pretty good price from a local Berlin firm, so it arrives tomorrow!

your room looks great! I am from Berlin myself and always had a hard time finding proper timber and wood beams, which at least are straight... would you be willing to share your source?

Let me know when you are free for visitors!

Old 30th January 2015
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Hey Dirk, I went with Nordholz in Pankow, they were the cheapest I found within Berlin area, pretty friendly, the wood came in 2 deliveries, the first lot was beautifully straight and a joy to work with, the 2nd lot had a few more stragglers lumped in there, but still pretty good.. basically I bought them out of 2x6 with the first lot and they had to source some more.. not sure who from, but someone slightly less fussy about their wood it seems!.. Anyway it's still all fine, and looks like I probably overordered so I should be able to return the crooked lengths. I would recommend them, if only so to avoid repeated drives to Poland to try to work out if the wood you're ordering is going to be any use to you.
And now we have been building with it for a week, I am pretty happy at having spent the extra 1000€ because it has been a piece of cake to work with, super fast and everything uniform dimensions.. I keep imagining doing the same thing with less good quality wood and it would be an absolute nightmare, studio building is hard enough as it is, need to make it easier on yourself..
Always free for visitors, will be there on and off next week, but all day Thursday and Friday, maybe Wednesday too.. Some more pics tomorrow! And more questions! Ventilation etc.
Old 1st February 2015
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

New Photos

I took some photos last night, it's starting to look like something.

I also have an idea for the ventilation, replacing the top pane of the exterior window with a plywood panel with ventilation baffles attached, housing fans which push fresh air in from outside, controlled by variable speed controllers, for the control room and booth.. I can just about squeeze 2 each of in and out baffle boxes, the fans contained within the in-boxes.

The air will then be carried to the booth and control room where it meets another baffle box before being pushed back out through a second vent, through another baffle box on the window panel and finally outside.. Any thoughts?
Attached Thumbnails
Berlin Studio Build-dsc01447.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-dsc01450.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-dsc01451.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-dsc01453.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-dsc01456.jpg  

Berlin Studio Build-dsc01457.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-dsc01459.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Studio Plan Crop.pdf (849.9 KB, 220 views) File Type: pdf Studio Plan Vent.pdf (740.1 KB, 193 views)
Old 2nd February 2015
Gear Head

Nuisance, do you have any examples of the Viroc doors you mentioned?

It looks like an interesting product for a flush mounted speaker wall. Very industrial looking.
Old 3rd February 2015
Awesome stuff man!
Old 13th February 2015
Gear Addict
Toni-P's Avatar
Saw the place in person a few days ago and the pictures don't do it justice. It's a lot bigger and the ceilings are a lot higher than the pictures show.
Very excited to see this place come to live over the next few weeks!

Good luck Robbie!
Old 13th February 2015
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Thanks Toni, was lovely to meet you guys.
Old 20th February 2015
Gear Head
Morceror's Avatar

Pretty much finished with the wood.. just the last section of wall by the entrance, which I'm leaving until the plasterboard is in. Control room floor is pretty much level now, went for self levelling compound in the end, not too bad.. the amp/vocal booth is built and feels very good, went for a slightly bigger space in the end.

Setting about getting going with the wiring in the next few days.. still looking for the elusive guy to offer some above board electrical expertise to the project.. so far I've been completely ripped off by a local guy who charged me 180€ for disconnecting a few cables from the consumer unit, plus very helpfully tore out the power to my water heater, so no hot water anymore.. ach..

What I'm really looking for is someone who can advise somewhat, then let me lay all the cable, come along at the end, connect it all up, and sign a certificate.. without feeling the need to charge me slick big business rates.. I really could do this all myself, I've done a lot of wiring in the past, but I'm trying to do it above board.. why is it so difficult to find someone!!

Anyway, plasterboard coming next week, here's some new photos:
Attached Thumbnails
Berlin Studio Build-dsc01485.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-dsc01487.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-dsc01494.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-dsc01495.jpg   Berlin Studio Build-dsc01496.jpg  

Berlin Studio Build-dsc01503.jpg  
Old 21st February 2015
yeah, finding good labourers in Berlin is a tuff one.
have you tried MyHammer | Handwerker finden mit Profil.
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