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Analogue Baby Studio Liverpool Consoles
Old 5th January 2012
  #1741
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bassjam's Avatar
 

Door 2 on and swinging!







Old 5th January 2012
  #1742
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**** the mice are big in Liverpool !!!

keep up the good work boys looks like there light at the end of the tunnel soon
Old 5th January 2012
  #1743
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Analogue Kid's Avatar
 

Classic dude

A GS member with a sense of humour !!!!!!!!!!

Wonders never cease ;-)

Cheers bro


Andy



Quote:
Originally Posted by emearg_s View Post
**** the mice are big in Liverpool !!!

keep up the good work boys looks like there light at the end of the tunnel soon
Old 5th January 2012
  #1744
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Kid View Post
A GS member with a sense of humour !!!!!!!!!!

Wonders never cease ;-)

Cheers bro


Andy
Hey Andy, to own a recording studio these days...you NEED a sense of humour !

Got the new 4 bay rack installed today behind the console. Week-end of installing equipment and soldering XLRs...love the fumes...
Old 5th January 2012
  #1745
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Analog baby doors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Kid View Post
A GS member with a sense of humour !!!!!!!!!!

Wonders never cease ;-)

Cheers bro


Andy
Hey Andy

Cheers Mate

Doors are amazing! I think they should both open out to there respective side, sort of speak.. I think you might be happier that way.. and less prone to accidents..I have built several Hidley rooms with sound trap doors...

Say Hello to Robin for me please

MicAngelo
THE MIX PALACE STUDIO RECORDING
Old 5th January 2012
  #1746
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bassjam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
Hey Andy

Cheers Mate

Doors are amazing! I think they should both open out to there respective side, sort of speak.. I think you might be happier that way.. and less prone to accidents..I have built several Hidley rooms with sound trap doors...

Say Hello to Robin for me please

MicAngelo
THE MIX PALACE STUDIO RECORDING
The sound lobby doors both open out towards the fire exit. They are like that to meet fire regulations. The doors are different widths and have vision portholes to prevent them being opened onto someone entering from the other direction. We followed the RA plan.

G
Old 5th January 2012
  #1747
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Your grounding

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassjam View Post
The sound lobby doors both open out towards the fire exit. They are like that to meet fire regulations. The doors are different widths and have vision portholes to prevent them being opened onto someone entering from the other direction. We followed the RA plan.

G
Hey Greg

On 1 of your posts, Did I see you guys do a seperate technical earth for your studio NOT tied to your AC neutral bonding point in your incoming service panel?

MicAngelo
Old 5th January 2012
  #1748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
Hey Greg

On 1 of your posts, Did I see you guys do a seperate technical earth for your studio NOT tied to your AC neutral bonding point in your incoming service panel?

MicAngelo
That would be correct yes, do you have a question about it?

Greg
Old 5th January 2012
  #1749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassjam View Post
The sound lobby doors both open out towards the fire exit. They are like that to meet fire regulations. The doors are different widths and have vision portholes to prevent them being opened onto someone entering from the other direction. We followed the RA plan.

G
Are the doors also connected so that they open with one push in sync? That's what we did and it works like a charm.
Old 5th January 2012
  #1750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassjam View Post
That would be correct yes, do you have a question about it?

Greg
In my studio I did a deep earth ground, whereby I drove 80 ground rods 100 ft ,Yes 100 feet deep into the earth to get a true 1.7 ohms to true mother earth!

I been studing grounding for some 15 years and here is the results of my research:



0v and chassis grounds need to be grounded and it does get better when they combine at a "star" before seeing ground.. This was also confirmed with my SSL, when I moved the star right under the producer desk!

All test sounded the best when all grounds return ed to the Neutreal bonding point in the incoming mains panel.

When I did a technical earth wherby I used one of my deep earth ground rods (2 ohms) and connecting the studio star system directly to it , but leaving the wire from all the rods on it, (referencing back to the neutreal bond) the results were NOT as good..

When I did a completely seperate ground system for the studio(not referenced to the mains AC ground bond) results were terrible...

I think this closes the chapter on all of this for me.. I am convinced any deviation from this is just going to change the sound and I do understand in the hifi world, this could be percienved as "more musical" due to a more compressed or softening effect on the music..

variations from the perfect ground system also seemed to "Tube up the sound" sort of speak..

I do understand if a facility has a dirty ground, ie water pipe, any deviation will help clean up the ground floor. but will still compromise ultimate performance.....!

Conclusion I seperate ground system (not tied to the village water mains) but tied to AC neutreal bonding seems the only way to get best performace in any installation!

If you are interested, I can show you how to do a deep earth ground. and remember 1 rod only 10-20 feet is only 30 ohms or more. Most electricians do not have the proper meter to measure earth resistence properely.
Old 5th January 2012
  #1751
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bassjam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demor View Post
Are the doors also connected so that they open with one push in sync? That's what we did and it works like a charm.
No they are not, how did you do that? Electronic door opener? Sounds expensive!
Old 5th January 2012
  #1752
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
In my studio I did a deep earth ground, whereby I drove 80 ground rods 100 ft ,Yes 100 feet deep into the earth to get a true 1.7 ohms to true mother earth!

I been studing grounding for some 15 years and here is the results of my research:



0v and chassis grounds need to be grounded and it does get better when they combine at a "star" before seeing ground.. This was also confirmed with my SSL, when I moved the star right under the producer desk!

All test sounded the best when all grounds return ed to the Neutreal bonding point in the incoming mains panel.

When I did a technical earth wherby I used one of my deep earth ground rods (2 ohms) and connecting the studio star system directly to it , but leaving the wire from all the rods on it, (referencing back to the neutreal bond) the results were NOT as good..

When I did a completely seperate ground system for the studio(not referenced to the mains AC ground bond) results were terrible...

I think this closes the chapter on all of this for me.. I am convinced any deviation from this is just going to change the sound and I do understand in the hifi world, this could be percienved as "more musical" due to a more compressed or softening effect on the music..

variations from the perfect ground system also seemed to "Tube up the sound" sort of speak..

I do understand if a facility has a dirty ground, ie water pipe, any deviation will help clean up the ground floor. but will still compromise ultimate performance.....!

Conclusion I seperate ground system (not tied to the village water mains) but tied to AC neutreal bonding seems the only way to get best performace in any installation!

If you are interested, I can show you how to do a deep earth ground. and remember 1 rod only 10-20 feet is only 30 ohms or more. Most electricians do not have the proper meter to measure earth resistence properely.
80 ground rods, 100 feet deep in 8 different locations...! I am more grounded than some substations..LOL
Old 5th January 2012
  #1753
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bassjam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
80 ground rods, 100 feet deep in 8 different locations...! I am more grounded than some substations..LOL
I don't just have a clean earth, it's a fully isolated clean supply. The clean earth is bonded to the bottom leg of the output side on the open delta isolating transformer. This gives a perfect 0V refrence neutral at the same potential as the clean earth.

In order to conform to 17th edition, this is how the system has to be! You can't bond a derived neutral to the TN-C-S neutral therefore you can't bond the clean earth to the PME earth.

Also, I don't see what you are achieving by bonding your earth to the PME earth? The PME will always have a lower imedence than your earthing rods. So arnt you just contaminating the PME earth? I'm not positive and I'll dig out my 17th edition tomorrow but I'm pretty sure your not allowed to bond your own earth to the PME!

Also, if your grounding rods are X deep, they are ment to be 2X apart, are your 100m rods 200m apart? They are 2X apart to reduce EM inductance.

G
Old 5th January 2012
  #1754
Lives for gear
 

Hi
Granted it is very well earthed for the safety aspect but unfortunately as ALL conductors are aerials resonant at some frequency your studio will be earthed as well as an airship in the sky.
The aerial of your mobile is only a matter of a few inches so in some respects your desk will not be earthed at all at these frequencies.
Happy days.
Matt S
Old 5th January 2012
  #1755
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassjam View Post
I don't just have a clean earth, it's a fully isolated clean supply. The clean earth is bonded to the bottom leg of the output side on the open delta isolating transformer. This gives a perfect 0V refrence neutral at the same potential as the clean earth.

In order to conform to 17th edition, this is how the system has to be! You can't bond a derived neutral to the TN-C-S neutral therefore you can't bond the clean earth to the PME earth.

Also, I don't see what you are achieving by bonding your earth to the PME earth? The PME will always have a lower imedence than your earthing rods. So arnt you just contaminating the PME earth? I'm not positive and I'll dig out my 17th edition tomorrow but I'm pretty sure your not allowed to bond your own earth to the PME!

Also, if your grounding rods are X deep, they are ment to be 2X apart, are your 100m rods 200m apart? They are 2X apart to reduce EM inductance.

G
If you like to chat on the phone more on this, I would be more than glad.. 516-489-6177 USA
Old 5th January 2012
  #1756
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
If you like to chat on the phone more on this, I would be more than glad.. 516-489-6177 USA
There should be ONLY 1 ground point in a entire building! this is also code!
Old 5th January 2012
  #1757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
Granted it is very well earthed for the safety aspect but unfortunately as ALL conductors are aerials resonant at some frequency your studio will be earthed as well as an airship in the sky.
The aerial of your mobile is only a matter of a few inches so in some respects your desk will not be earthed at all at these frequencies.
Happy days.
Matt S
Matt your response indicates you know nothing about grounding.. so take a walk
Old 6th January 2012
  #1758
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bassjam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
Granted it is very well earthed for the safety aspect but unfortunately as ALL conductors are aerials resonant at some frequency your studio will be earthed as well as an airship in the sky.
The aerial of your mobile is only a matter of a few inches so in some respects your desk will not be earthed at all at these frequencies.
Happy days.
Matt S
That's why I used SY cable and sunk it to the PME earth. That way the RF is induced into the shield and not the cable core. Because the PME is the "dirty" earth it isn't a problem!

G
Old 6th January 2012
  #1759
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bassjam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
There should be ONLY 1 ground point in a entire building! this is also code!
Sorry but you are wrong on that! Check the 17th edition on TT earth systems. You can have more than one earthing system in the building as long as there is adequate RCD/RCBO protection and that there is no way that they can be bridged by an inhabitant. Which in my instillation, it can't. You also have to have each earthing point clearly labelled. You also have to have a plan of the system in the consumer unit cupboards.

G
Old 6th January 2012
  #1760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassjam View Post
Sorry but you are wrong on that! Check the 17th edition on TT earth systems. You can have more than one earthing system in the building as long as there is adequate RCD/RCBO protection and that there is no way that they can be bridged by an inhabitant. Which in my instillation, it can't.

G
Its all good, I really just want your console to sound its best.. Since the 88R was generally not well recieved in the US, to my ears, I believe it was because of bad installations..

I would strongly suggest you experiment before you open,.. since your sound will be the main selling point in this business and word spreads like a fire in a dry forest!

Did you measure your new ground? and what was its ohm to earth?
Old 6th January 2012
  #1761
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bassjam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
Its all good, I really just want your console to sound its best.. Since the 88R was generally not well recieved in the US, to my ears, I believe it was because of bad installations..

I would strongly suggest you experiment before you open,.. since your sound will be the main selling point in this business and word spreads like a fire in a dry forest!

Did you measure your new ground? and what was its ohm to earth?
Not well received in the US??? It is used in every major scoring facility in the UK and the US! Not to mention Alan Sides saying that is the best sounding console available!

Our clean earth impedance was less than 6 ohms, but again, remind me why it's important when you have a perfect 0V derived neutral? The audio gear derives it's reference from the neutral, which is at the same potential as the independent earth. In a star network earth using the console as the primary node, there can be no induced PD, I or RF between the earth and the neutral regardless of the earth impedance.

G
Old 6th January 2012
  #1762
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassjam View Post
Not well received in the US??? It is used in every major scoring facility in the UK and the US! Not to mention Alan Sides saying that is the best sounding console available!

Our clean earth impedance was less than 6 ohms, but again, remind me why it's important when you have a perfect 0V derived neutral? The audio gear derives it's reference from the neutral, which is at the same potential as the independent earth. In a star network earth using the console as the primary node, there can be no induced PD, I or RF between the earth and the neutral regardless of the earth impedance.

G
Lets discuss this on the phone, if you want..
Old 6th January 2012
  #1763
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emearg_s View Post
**** the mice are big in Liverpool !!!

keep up the good work boys looks like there light at the end of the tunnel soon
Maybe I should have said there light at the end of the mouse hole ?

And I do get your point about lack of sense hummer on GS there million's of way to do things but for some if you don't do there way your wrong !!

"We are the sum of our decisions and as long as you're happy that's all that matters." Antigone Morris

And you can't say you have put your money ware your mouth is try to make a amazing place

Ps I still think look like psychedelic brothel (but I love that)
Old 6th January 2012
  #1764
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassjam View Post
Not well received in the US??? It is used in every major scoring facility in the UK and the US! Not to mention Alan Sides saying that is the best sounding console available!

Our clean earth impedance was less than 6 ohms, but again, remind me why it's important when you have a perfect 0V derived neutral? The audio gear derives it's reference from the neutral, which is at the same potential as the independent earth. In a star network earth using the console as the primary node, there can be no induced PD, I or RF between the earth and the neutral regardless of the earth impedance.

G
How deep is the rod you measured 6 ohms about?
Old 6th January 2012
  #1765
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bassjam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
How deep is the rod you measured 6 ohms about?
Its a star node earth grid, 3 tape connected rods 10m deep 20m apart from eachother retrospectively.
Old 6th January 2012
  #1766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassjam View Post
Its a star node earth grid, 3 tape connected rods 10m deep 20m apart from eachother retrospectively.
Nice!
Old 6th January 2012
  #1767
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
Since the 88R was generally not well recieved in the US, to my ears, I believe it was because of bad installations..
Happily our lads have gone with an 88RS which was well received everywhere!
Old 6th January 2012
  #1768
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bassjam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Happily our lads have gone with an 88RS which was well received everywhere!
Happily, there are guys like Trev on this forum! Mate, let me know when you want to drop by! You will be well received! You would be well revived anywhere!

G
Old 6th January 2012
  #1769
Quote:
Originally Posted by bassjam View Post
Sorry but you are wrong on that! Check the 17th edition on TT earth systems. You can have more than one earthing system in the building as long as there is adequate RCD/RCBO protection and that there is no way that they can be bridged by an inhabitant. Which in my instillation, it can't. You also have to have each earthing point clearly labelled. You also have to have a plan of the system in the consumer unit cupboards.

G
We had quite a few discussions with both our electrical engineer and our electrical installer, and they both argued that in the US code requires a single bonding point for ground/neutral connection. I honestly don't understand how the hell that's supposed to work with our separated power (balanced, dirty, and HVAC), but our balanced/clean power is a star ground which heads back to the Main Distribution Panel, where it bonds with the dirty and the HVAC grounds, which then head off to our series of grounding rods. It took us a few times adjusting the grounding rods before we got measurements that made sense.

Grounding is a damn tricky problem, and every installation presents its own unique set of problems to diagnose and correct.
Old 6th January 2012
  #1770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clueless View Post
We had quite a few discussions with both our electrical engineer and our electrical installer, and they both argued that in the US code requires a single bonding point for ground/neutral connection. I honestly don't understand how the hell that's supposed to work with our separated power (balanced, dirty, and HVAC), but our balanced/clean power is a star ground which heads back to the Main Distribution Panel, where it bonds with the dirty and the HVAC grounds, which then head off to our series of grounding rods. It took us a few times adjusting the grounding rods before we got measurements that made sense.

Grounding is a damn tricky problem, and every installation presents its own unique set of problems to diagnose and correct.
It's unfortunate that your wiring regulations differ so drastically from ours! What do yours say about having a power link to a boat? A boat basically has a TT system with an isolating transformer. That's essentially how we have the two earths in our building. How can your regulations allow boats to have power hook-ups but then say the same principle can't be used in a building? Crazy!!!
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