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Everything's ****, and I'm cynical
Old 9th March 2019
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UKMK00 View Post
Why is "Crazy" non diatonic?

Every chord in it is based in the C melodic minor mode.

Same with "Happy"

Cept its its in F melodic minor...
Crazy has the unexpected major I chord, which is non diatonic (otherwise it is natural and/or harmonic minor, not melodic)

Check the chorus of Happy- there are no Db's is in F melodic minor or Fmaj chords.
Old 10th March 2019
  #62
Deleted 47d171f
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Agree! The music and artists today are poisoned. The culture and society os poisoned. With sigs. Club life. alk. all party. all beats. Life ain t notin but a party...so on..Not like it was back in the 60`s I think. I don`t know but. Society is bad now.

I just deleted all my house songs/Because it is not gods work. It is evil and wrong. You know what is right! Simon & Garfunkel ...


Song for the asking
More than glad to change my ways...

I want to tell this to someone. I can see things/Feel invisible things. I just deleted all my bad house songs and I felt my whole head pull to the side or drei. The songs are of course connected to the head and also soul. I have come to the conclusion that music vibrations. Synth vibrational sounds and big drums and beats are dangerous.

I am going to make some of gods music now...Softness goodness.
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Old 10th March 2019
  #63
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Poopypants's Avatar
 

I'm 55 years old. A month away from 56. You all sound like my mom when I was 13.
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Old 10th March 2019
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jammate View Post
Glad I read this post. I learned about The Lemon Twigs', worth it!

I agree that the "music business" is pumping out cookie cutter music but it always has.
Not really, at least not to the extreme degree it does now, and even when it was playing "cookie cutter" at least a fair # of interesting, quality cookies were in the mix and people actually knew how to play their instruments and singers knew how to sing. Music is in big trouble, across all genres. This "same as it ever was" thing is wishful thinking, a common fallacy IMO that simply doesn't hold up when you examine what's coming out now, on the whole. Repeat, on the whole. Obviously there has always been good and bad, but that's such a huge oversimplification it's meaningless.

Totally hear you OP. It's not old age. It's reality. Hope that you can still find that "vibe" in your music at least and take satisfaction in that. Try not to let all the garbage out there drag you down.
Old 10th March 2019
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Overall I agree-

On this point, I do see where you are coming from, but it always has seemed weird to me to look at mainstream music as a place to find harmonic complexity.

There have always been outliers, Like "Sir Duke" which was a Billboard number one and has some pretty interesting harmonic action. But in more recent times "Crazy" by Gnarls Barkley or "Happy" by Pharrell are both pretty interesting, non-diatonic and also Billboard #1 's. Stevie's more complex stuff, say "You & I" never made it to the radio (the end of that song is crazy!).

The 80s had a lot of songs that had interesting chords on the bridge, like "Every Breath You Take" for example...but most of the hits were still pretty I-V-vi-IV or vi-IV-I-V etc for the choruses (There are 16 derivations if I, IV, V, and vi and you find them in most hit songs of any era). "Africa" is a great example, very well written and smart, the key change to the chorus is very cool and the way it gets hinted at in the verses, but the hook is still straight vi-IV-I-V.

But meanwhile Jazz is standing by saying "excuse me, we have everything from Art Tatum to Brad Mehldau if you are interested in harmonic complexity"...And Gospel too, especially for those who favor more vocal/song forward songs. Like this (late 80s)-



From the perspective of being harmonically interesting, and still melodically catchy and accessible for a layperson, this is a pretty incredible piece of writing. Pretty hard to put A-ha or Cocteau Twins next to that on a compositional level.

Don't get me wrong, writing/producing a simple, mainstream masterpiece is incredibly difficult and a skill that takes a lot of work too. People tend to overlook that in these types of threads...
Yes to all the above! And of course writing a simple song is underrated to say the least and very difficult, most pop today relies on the melodic flow over a four bar chord sequence for which this generation has become very creative, both melodically and rhythmically!

I don't want to go down the theory route in this thread as I'm not sure that's what the OP intended...

I teach Music Theory at University and it becomes increasingly difficult to teach the value of borrowed chords, secondary dominants, modal interchange, parallel major/minors etc to students and to make them see the value of knowing that in their songwriting and how that is healthy knowledge to express the feelings they are trying to convey in their songs when all they hear around them are diatonic progressions for the most part! So trying to show current examples of what I'm teaching in practice without reaching back becomes increasingly challenging. Of course there are exceptions even today!
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Old 10th March 2019
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UKMK00 View Post
I did check the chorus of happy.

They are Bb minor 7 chords, not Db. The bass is playing Bb on those so called Db chords. Of course there are Db in F Melodic minor!!

On the descending side of the melodic minor scale it is natural minor.


Since Melodic minor encompasses both minor and major, and natural minor modes of the minor scale, my analysis is correct.

The C major chord at the beginning of the 2nd and 3rd verse is an episodic modulation, and does not change the "diatonic nature" of the song...
Interesting, this seems more like semantics than anything. The way I was taught, diatonic means only part of the whole note scale, I see in the wiki page some definitions include common western heptatonic scales-

Diatonic and chromatic - Wikipedia

But including both ascending and descending seems strange to me in that it's 9 notes all together (so not hepatonic). Also the way I was taught, "episodic modulations", secondary dominants, N6, borrowing from minor etc are all non-diatonic.

I guess by the definition you use "Sir Duke" is also diatonic as the "diatonic nature" of the song doesn't change (always Bmaj). To be more precise I should have used "whole note scale" instead of diatonic.

In any case my point was merely that mainstream music really never has been a great place to look for a whole lot of complexity. And while there are some non-whole-note-scale outliers, they haven't been earth-shattering in any era.
Old 10th March 2019
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz View Post
So trying to show current examples of what I'm teaching in practice without reaching back becomes increasingly challenging. Of course there are exceptions even today!
Yeah that makes sense, where is a modern "here there and everywhere" eh?

My feeling is that modern production creates a lot of musical inertia. So it becomes hard to steer the boat without losing passengers or just crashing all together. So the focus has gone to other areas as you mentioned.

It's interesting to consider that all the unison detuning with synths is adding complexity to the harmonics if not 'harmonic complexity' in the songwriting . The same could be said for distorted guitars...5ths with guitar distortion vs 10ths with unison detuned synths. The power chord dejour I guess.
Old 10th March 2019
  #68
Deleted be25781
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Man there is still awesome stuff being made today, you just have to look harder. But to me everything is too digital and sterile these days. Just avoid radio, that's just a bunch of idiots selling products 24/7.

There are guys like me who are hitting 30 and building old school studios with a cutdown SSL 4000 and modern recall system, also Studer machines and a handful of 1176s. I even have old Sony converters. I do this out of rebellion against all digital music. Call me crazy.. call it a waste of money because the plugins get you there 99 percent. I call it the joy of being an actual engineer, I can't do music on a computer. But people usually go for the easiest and cheaper route these days, because they buy into marketing I guess. It's reflected in music today. Home recording also has ruined A LOT.

At least I can mix tracks the way I want to and make everything sound like it used to do back in the eighties and nineties.

You can't do grunge on a Pro Tools rig and Steven Slate drums.. Yes it's harder to get things done, I don't care.

My love of music is only growing because I have this ultimate goal that I want to achieve in making my studio public and leaning on that idea of "let's make music like the records you grew up with" Or "remember the actual album sound"?

Once I got into the engineering side of things my appreciation for recorded music only grew. Pre Pro Tools engineering that is, I'm living inside a bubble where there is no mixing with the masters bull****. "Which plugin is the best?".. or "why don't my drums sound like Metallica's Black album?"

I'm the only cat in town who is doing it old school, already some musicians want to have their tracks mixed in here because they hear and know the difference. But that's only a small margin of musicians, I'd rather deal with those people anyway!

Last edited by Deleted be25781; 10th March 2019 at 12:53 PM..
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Old 10th March 2019
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz View Post

I teach Music Theory at University and
But schools ruin everything. Your better off standing alone. This IS the everything sucks thread.
Old 13th March 2019
  #70
Deleted be25781
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Everything has been done.

True, unless we come up with a totally different instrument just like when synthesizers came out. Would be cool to have a totally new wave of different music, but that´s not going to happen because we have reached our limits.

Take a look at a band like Greta Van Fleet, that´s the sixties/seventies blues rock thing again. People are going crazy over this band beause they sound like this old band from yesteryear. We all love familiar sounds that´s true, and we keep wanting those type of sounds. I give them credit for recording as much analog as they can though they tracked to Pro Tools. Good band, but everything now is just going to be a knockoff.

No more Deep Purples alas.
Old 13th March 2019
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius1 View Post
Everything has been done.

True, unless we come up with a totally different instrument just like when synthesizers came out. Would be cool to have a totally new wave of different music, but that´s not going to happen because we have reached our limits.

Take a look at a band like Greta Van Fleet, that´s the sixties/seventies blues rock thing again. People are going crazy over this band beause they sound like this old band from yesteryear. We all love familiar sounds that´s true, and we keep wanting those type of sounds. I give them credit for recording as much analog as they can though they tracked to Pro Tools. Good band, but everything now is just going to be a knock off.

No more Deep Purples alas.
I' say Greta Van Fleet are more of the Led Zeppelin 'Rutles' rather than '60s/70s influenced.

There is being influenced by a genre or even by a band.....and then there is just blatantly ripping a band off, GVF fall into the latter.

What makes it worse is that they don't have the decency to credit Led Zeppelin as even being an influence.
Old 13th March 2019
  #72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius1 View Post
Everything has been done.
Thank you for that statement.
And this is exactly the situation - there is a limited amount of combinations between notes and rhythm that sound "good" to our ears.

So with every new song, somebody knows a preexisting one with at least a lot of similarity in the melody.

Does that mean we should stop making new music at all?
(Rhetorical question)

Last edited by PitW; 13th March 2019 at 12:22 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 13th March 2019
  #73
Deleted be25781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clump View Post
I' say Greta Van Fleet are more of the Led Zeppelin 'Rutles' rather than '60s/70s influenced.

There is being influenced by a genre or even by a band.....and then there is just blatantly ripping a band off, GVF fall into the latter.

What makes it worse is that they don't have the decency to credit Led Zeppelin as even being an influence.
He even does Robert Plant´s hand gestures. I like them, but they don´t have the flair, or the originality I think. Stuck on one formula that might die out fast.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PitW View Post
Thank you for that statement.
And this is exactly the situation - there is a limited amount of combinations between notes and rhythm that sound "good" to our ears.

So with every new song, somebody knows a preexisting one with at least a lot of similarity in the melody.

Does that mean we should stop making new music at all?
(Rhetorical question)
Let´s not stop making music because I heard better guitarists than Jimi Hendrix himself in the last 10 years. That motivates me to keep looking for stuff.
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Old 13th March 2019
  #74
Gear Addict
 

Von Fleet are a really bad copy of the Zep... On recordings it's kind of, maybe oke-ish, but once you see live clips of them it becomes apparent they are hollow and really just hipsters.
On the other hand the Lemon Twigs kick le butta ESPECIALLY live.

At least this is MY opinion...
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Old 13th March 2019
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioloud View Post
Von Fleet are a really bad copy of the Zep... On recordings it's kind of, maybe oke-ish, but once you see live clips of them it becomes apparent they are hollow and really just hipsters.
On the other hand the Lemon Twigs kick le butta ESPECIALLY live.

At least this is MY opinion...
I agree 100%
Old 13th March 2019
  #76
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Old 13th March 2019
  #77
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There will always be new ways of twisting things. Leave it to the current generation to think that after hundreds and maybe thousands of years we’ve SUDDENLY hit that point where there’s nothing else new.

OTOH yeah. There are only so many ways to arrange 12 notes. But through that there was Gregorian, Bach, Mozart, Chinese opera, gamelan, delta blues, 12 tone rows, bebop, swing, hip hop, punk, fusion, Brazilian, Cuba, marching band and military music, folk of countless cultures, musicals of the 20s, 30s, 40s etc, Metal and it’s vario sub genres, funk, Motown, gospel, country, electronic, — I mean it goes on. Limited only by the imagination.
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Old 13th March 2019
  #78
We're holding onto some of the best technology that humankind has produced and were cynical? Kings and vassals could only dream, and then it wasnt even a possibility they could dream of !!!! Just imagine all the sonic possibilities, I think cyncism/stasis is born of sameness and we have to revolt and be different from everyone. Find your own voice! We are all like snowflakes and if we can't find a unique way (non-PC?) to express music then that's Our problem! That's the Worlds problem, it's being "smart" this or "smart" that. Well then I'm stupid! Glory be to all the stupidity and wonder of being stupid and stupidness and disharmony and dysfunctional sounds, distortion, noise so be it. I think we all need a kick in the pants by someone whose enthused and who hasnt lost the zest for life and says what is wrong with all you people!!! Liven up! Cheer up! We're all human and we're failing but so what! THE problem is everything sounds the same because everyone is trying to hit the perfect notes, perfect rhythm, and it no longer sounds like the sunshine, springtime to me! I think we need to loosen up, allow things to be disharmonant until they are. It's the way it goes.
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Old 13th March 2019
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geob View Post
We're holding onto some of the best technology that humankind has produced and were cynical? Kings and vassals could only dream, and then it wasnt even a possibility they could dream of !!!! Just imagine all the sonic possibilities, I think cyncism/stasis is born of sameness and we have to revolt and be different from everyone. Find your own voice! We are all like snowflakes and if we can't find a unique way (non-PC?) to express music then that's Our problem! That's the Worlds problem, it's being "smart" this or "smart" that. Well then I'm stupid! Glory be to all the stupidity and wonder of being stupid and stupidness and disharmony and dysfunctional sounds, distortion, noise so be it. I think we all need a kick in the pants by someone whose enthused and who hasnt lost the zest for life and says what is wrong with all you people!!! Liven up! Cheer up! We're all human and we're failing but so what! THE problem is everything sounds the same because everyone is trying to hit the perfect notes, perfect rhythm, and it no longer sounds like the sunshine, springtime to me! I think we need to loosen up, allow things to be disharmonant until they are. It's the way it goes.
Good post.

Sex has also been around forever, but I don't hear of many people getting cynical about that.

Though the words "I love you" have been used in all possible variations, it's still unique and special when a loved one expresses them to us.
Old 13th March 2019
  #80
Gear Nut
 

Can't agree with the "everything's been done" thing. Do you happen to know of everything that can be done such that you could verify that everything has been done?

But I relate to some of your feelings. I watch documentaries and biopics about people from earlier in the music industry's history sometimes and marvel that they actually made a decent living from music. No way! Perhaps if I was born earlier, the things I was actually not **** at would be valued and I wouldn't feel like the waste of space that I do. Also, anhedonia is a real thing and you should do some research/talk to someone about what you can do about it.
Old 13th March 2019
  #81
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Words are noise, spoken or typed. edit 'school is a choice'

I liked Zappa. His take on the benefits of experimental music is under investigated. Gone too soon. There are so few to speak intelligently about the music business. You need to know how to confront the problem. Zappa handles this well, for the times really well.

Nobody is gonna follow a bunch of rules that the 'others' make up. I don't feel the way they do. That civil bull**** that is not that civil.

If you know you are right , cause you are the victim, the lies dont amount to anything.

It will always be that those stolen lines lie unforgiven. I'm old now too.

I'm watching some of the Smokey Robinson story , how they just stick it to you..
Old 13th March 2019
  #82
Deleted 2915a84
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Totally absurd.

If you’re listening to derivative garbage like this Greta band, that is blatantly copying zep, then no wonder you’re hopeless. They’re a high school band.

The Twig band? Utter crap. High school band.

The Y generation is a deranged piece of the population. They have no sense of time. The past, present and future are compressed into a permanent eternity that is, was and always will be ... until the next moment. Their minds are glued to screens. Sick people by and large.

At different times in history this “lost generation” appears. Usually at the Fin de Siecle We are at the end of a cycle.

This crowd doesn’t know what nostalgia is. It’s lost on them. In the way some people with autism can’t identify happy or sad or angry etc They confuse them. It’s just sameness.

Most of them are waiting for catastrophe. They are predetermined. Fated. Inevitable. A Faustian bargain that looks more like Sartre’ No Exit.

Once this sick generation fades into irrelevancy, the next generation, that is already rejecting this nihilism, will blow the world away with renaissance.

The west is a sick old man like the USSR and Ottoman Empire once were. The East is sick, too. Same disease.
Old 14th March 2019
  #83
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyacier View Post
The Y generation is a deranged piece of the population. They have no sense of time. The past, present and future are compressed into a permanent eternity that is, was and always will be ... until the next moment. Their minds are glued to screens. Sick people by and large.
I started making inventing music with your words

Mind are glued
to to
s c
R R
R R
are we?
Old 14th March 2019
  #84
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GearFiddler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guyacier View Post

Most of them are waiting for catastrophe.

Man...it's gonna be rough when the lights go out, the autotune and beat detective can't be powered up, and there aren't any prefab chunks to collage with.
The woman shaped box with the sharp pointy steel thingy at one end is for digging potatoes...right?


Old 14th March 2019
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopypants View Post
I'm 55 years old. A month away from 56. You all sound like my mom when I was 13.
48 here. Yes. They do...

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Old 14th March 2019
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guyacier View Post
Totally absurd.

If you’re listening to derivative garbage like this Greta band, that is blatantly copying zep, then no wonder you’re hopeless. They’re a high school band.

The Twig band? Utter crap. High school band.

The Y generation is a deranged piece of the population. They have no sense of time. The past, present and future are compressed into a permanent eternity that is, was and always will be ... until the next moment. Their minds are glued to screens. Sick people by and large.

At different times in history this “lost generation” appears. Usually at the Fin de Sicle’. We are at the end of a cycle.

This crowd doesn’t know what nostalgia is. It’s lost on them. In the way some people with autism can’t identify happy or sad or angry etc They confuse them. It’s just sameness.

Most of them are waiting for catastrophe. They are predetermined. Fated. Inevitable. A Faustian bargain that looks more like Sartre’ No Exit.

Once this sick generation fades into irrelevancy, the next generation, that is already rejecting this nihilism, will blow the world away with renaissance.

The west is a sick old man like the USSR and Ottoman Empire once were. The East is sick, too. Same disease.
oh dear
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Old 14th March 2019
  #87
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mark1971's Avatar
 

Eh, this IS the everything sucks thread.

The more of the Smokey Robinson story I hear, the more I feel sorry for the guy. Its because of other people with no clue , are making rules for you. That you probably arent even aware of. He played music, not chose going to school to be a lawyer.
Old 14th March 2019
  #88
Deleted be25781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guyacier View Post
Totally absurd.

If you’re listening to derivative garbage like this Greta band, that is blatantly copying zep, then no wonder you’re hopeless. They’re a high school band.

The Twig band? Utter crap. High school band.

The Y generation is a deranged piece of the population. They have no sense of time. The past, present and future are compressed into a permanent eternity that is, was and always will be ... until the next moment. Their minds are glued to screens. Sick people by and large.

At different times in history this “lost generation” appears. Usually at the Fin de Sicle’. We are at the end of a cycle.

This crowd doesn’t know what nostalgia is. It’s lost on them. In the way some people with autism can’t identify happy or sad or angry etc They confuse them. It’s just sameness.

Most of them are waiting for catastrophe. They are predetermined. Fated. Inevitable. A Faustian bargain that looks more like Sartre’ No Exit.

Once this sick generation fades into irrelevancy, the next generation, that is already rejecting this nihilism, will blow the world away with renaissance.

The west is a sick old man like the USSR and Ottoman Empire once were. The East is sick, too. Same disease.
Heavy as f*ck
Old 14th March 2019
  #89
Deleted be25781
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You know when a band like Greta breaks through, we should just be happy that they are bringing old school rock back to the charts. For once these Kanye West kids get a chance to explore a sound that comes from a decent heritage. Maybe they will get to know the old stuff because of this band because they keep hearing "they sound like Zeppelin". They are never going to be Zeppelin, there is no room for that because it´s simply not made up of the elements that make a mainstream pop band, what 16 year old is going to sit through Stairway to Heaven? There are only a few.

It´s the instant Youtube click-through gradification thing. Bands need good singles now, the album days are gone.

It has to be a Katy Perry type Led Zeppelin, you know good looking dudes with long hair who look kinda artsy with cowboy vests and raccoon tails hanging out their jeans. You gotta get all the young women in the front row because they pay for this stuff, my girlfriend bought both their cds. She wants to see them live soon, I bet the place will be packed with women.

Yes they do look like thrift store hipster hobbits.
Old 14th March 2019
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guyacier View Post
Totally absurd.

If you’re listening to derivative garbage like this Greta band, that is blatantly copying zep, then no wonder you’re hopeless. They’re a high school band.

The Twig band? Utter crap. High school band.

The Y generation is a deranged piece of the population. They have no sense of time. The past, present and future are compressed into a permanent eternity that is, was and always will be ... until the next moment. Their minds are glued to screens. Sick people by and large.

At different times in history this “lost generation” appears. Usually at the Fin de Sicle’. We are at the end of a cycle.

This crowd doesn’t know what nostalgia is. It’s lost on them. In the way some people with autism can’t identify happy or sad or angry etc They confuse them. It’s just sameness.

Most of them are waiting for catastrophe. They are predetermined. Fated. Inevitable. A Faustian bargain that looks more like Sartre’ No Exit.

Once this sick generation fades into irrelevancy, the next generation, that is already rejecting this nihilism, will blow the world away with renaissance.

The west is a sick old man like the USSR and Ottoman Empire once were. The East is sick, too. Same disease.
As you read this, try to imagine it's the preacher in the Footloose clip, in his voice and cadence. Amen!
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