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Let me introduce myself Condenser Microphones
Old 10th March 2014
  #1
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Let me introduce myself

Hi, I've perused these pages before and found you a likable lot, so here goes:
I'm a 51 year old poet/rhythm guitarist/bass player/construction sub-contractor with an occasional drinking problem. High strung with ADHD so I bought some drums.
I've played in several garage bands, Rock, fusion and Jazz and I'm extremely tired of three chord cover songs, insincerity and inept players and out of control egos.
My fiance also plays guitar and piano and we enjoy writing originals.
Our tastes run from Tori Amos to Frank Zappa, Genesis to Modeski, Martin & Wood. James Taylor to Muse.
We are trying to record, engineer, produce and distribute songs and videos on the internet and play small club venues. I do NOT think that time is on my side.
Building a home studio, a project that's gone on for the last 5-7 years. The drum booth is small (8' x 9'about), 85% sound proof, the live room is 12x12.
A list of equipment that I've scrounged, traded for, begged borrowed as funds are limited!
IMac 17" running 10.4.11 DAW Logic
Onyx 1620i board
Alesis QS 8.2 Keyboard
6 pc Yamaha Stage custom Standard with Paiste, Zildjian.
Otari MX 50-50 Mk III 8 Reel to reel
Yamaha AX-592 Integrated Amp
Bose 201V bookshelf speakers with Onkyo Sub woofer
Yamaha NS-10 Monitors
Tascam PO1 cassette porta studio recorder
BBE 362 Sonic maxi-miser, Behringer MX1002 sub mixer, Lexicon MX 200 & Yamaha Emp 700 Effects. F Control Adio interface
Sampson head phone Amp.
Small Carvin Vintage 16 and Marshall Combo Amps, Fender 30 bass combo, Ampeg 2x10, Carvin 15 bass cabinets
Various Guitars and Basses
Mics.: 2 Sennheiser E835, shure SM57, PG56, PG52, Sterling Audio ST31,
So that's about it, I'm planning on mic'ing the drums into the small Behringer board and going to 2 channel to the Onyx.
I'm currently attempting to get everything hooked up and communicating but I find the learning curve to be nearly straight up, so any help direction advice etc. is appreciated.
Thank you
Old 10th March 2014
  #2
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WinnyP's Avatar
If you don't have time, use home for demos and take 3-5 fully written songs to a studio to FINISH. Especially if you need them as promo material for live gigs etc. With a learning curve, lots more money on gear and dayjob it took me 2 years to finish a 6 track ep.
Old 10th March 2014
  #3
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I totally understand what you're saying.
Old 10th March 2014
  #4
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But Winny, after two years...were you happy with the product?
Old 11th March 2014
  #5
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bigdoghat's Avatar
 

Dave are you planning to record in order to get gigs or you're doing both things at the same time? Trying to get gigs and also recording on the side but one isn't linked to the other?

I'd say forget the Otari, the BBE, the Lexicon and the Yamaha FX for now and keep things as much in the box with Logic as you can. This will simplify things quite a bit. Tape is nice if you have amazing gear to put in front of it, the tape gives it the icing on the cake but looking at your gear list, using tape isn't going to make much difference to the final product so forget it for now. Logic has reverbs, you can add the Lexicon and Yamaha later - routing these in and out of a digital audio workstation is not exactly simple or intuitive and again they won't make or break your recordings, not having them, so leave those of the equation for now too. Keep your porta studio for knocking out quick ideas when you're hanging in your living room and don't want to forget something

Hook up your Onxy to the audio interface, hook up your speakers, do everything inside Logic and you're done
Old 11th March 2014
  #6
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WinnyP's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Dave View Post
But Winny, after two years...were you happy with the product?
Yes, but it was 1&half years later than planned. :-/
Old 11th March 2014
  #7
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Unclenny's Avatar
Hi. I'm a 62 year old songwriter/guitarist/bassist/keyboardist/ex-construction contractor with musical tastes similar to yours.

If you are going to self record it has to be something that you love to do rather than a chore. Have you done any recording? Did it make you want to do more?

I am a dozen years into the DAW world and I am just now starting to hear what I like.
Old 11th March 2014
  #8
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bigdoghat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenny View Post

I am a dozen years into the DAW world and I am just now starting to hear what I like.
It took me about 10 years to start liking stuff I was doing, it's definitely a long road, but can be a fun road too. You can't beat the luxury of being able to record whenever you like and not having to pay for it. But yes, patience is key in terms of being happy with the end results, it takes quite a while to get really pro sounding tracks if you're doing it yourself
Old 11th March 2014
  #9
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bambamboom's Avatar
Sell that BBE, the Bose speakers, the Otari, and the Behringer mixer! Maybe the reverbs/fx too. You can do all of that with Logic. You won't miss them!

Why do you want to submix drums when you have a 16 channel interface via your Mackie mixer that already has quite a few inputs? 2 channels of drums is very limiting, record each as a separate track or at least do something like kick, snare, and overheads in recorderman technique or similar (4 tracks)
Old 11th March 2014
  #10
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bigdoghat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
Why do you want to submix drums when you have a 16 channel interface via your Mackie mixer that already has quite a few inputs? 2 channels of drums is very limiting, record each as a separate track or at least do something like kick, snare, and overheads in recorderman technique or similar (4 tracks)
I think his audio interface only has 2 inputs, so multiple channels into the Onxy and stereo out to the interface is what I understood
Old 12th March 2014
  #11
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hi, i'm dave too. ... monthly dave, but my wife's going away for a couple weeks, see if i can change that.



working under a time constraint is the BEST way to get things done. you better hurry up and get that **** done before you die man, you only live once.
Old 12th March 2014
  #12
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bambamboom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdoghat View Post
I think his audio interface only has 2 inputs, so multiple channels into the Onxy and stereo out to the interface is what I understood
The Mackie IS an audio interface. 1620i has 16ch in via Firewire and 2 ch back out for playback.
Old 12th March 2014
  #13
Dave, time IS on your side.
there's no such thing as 'too late'.
Just keep hacking away at it, find passion and it will bring, or keep
on bringing you joy and satisfaction you can't imagine.
BE
Cheers! Looking forward to hearing some of y're stuff!
PS, I too have an alcohol-narco problem, sober now for a year; BEST ****ING YEAR OF MY LIFE!
Old 12th March 2014
  #14
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Don't sell the tape machine you will never get that sound using plugins. Regardless of quality of equipment I have known bands to use cheap equipment and record to tape and it sounds good. I would get rid of the behringer, BBE and keep the reverbs as its always good to have outboard effects units when gigging or playing live instruments. I had mackie onyx years back dont remember if if it was any good or not.
Old 12th March 2014
  #15
welcome Dave! Good to have you here!
Old 12th March 2014
  #16
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bigdoghat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
The Mackie IS an audio interface. 1620i has 16ch in via Firewire and 2 ch back out for playback.
Oh right!! Then yes, why sub mix to two channels indeed?
Old 12th March 2014
  #17
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As we're in the middle of a snow emergency, I suddenly have the time to check for replies! Thank you all!

These are exactly what I was looking for, I will try to answer in chronological order.

To try to record "broadcast ready" is a standard I'd like to achieve as I think that would be a good benchmark. I've been cursed with a critical ear. I can occasionally hear the digital "warble" in a soprano voice on a CD, most people think I'm "seeing dead people" but that's what I hear. (Side note, I went to broadcast school 30 yrs. age and doing some voice over work at home would be a way I could make some side money).

Using my space to get a few songs down and record elsewhere is probably not a Terrible idea as Mark at Mark Custom is a friend of mine but money remains an issue.

Big Dog, how to route the FX into the board was going to be my next question. Instructions are vague as to how to connect them, return cable vs. stereo.

Luiz, finally, Thank you, someday I hope to cast off my crutches but that will be a discussion for another day.

One final question, the Alesis QS 8.2 has a midi cable that has a little "printer plug" in it, I need to get to Firewire, correct?? any ideas?

UnClenny: I love playing, I hear rhythms and bass lines in my head almost constantly and I think a super tight rhythm section (Tower of Power, et al.) must be like the voice of God.

Big bang: I don't know what "Recorder man" technique is, I was only thinking of sending the drums out of the booth "in Stereo" because I guess I was being lazy...
I'm confused if Logic will record multiple audio tracks simultaneously, but I guess that would be an issue if my source was 2 channels or 4 or more. My rudimentary understanding so far is only one track at a time. When I open a "new track" I'm not prompted which channel (channels) to record.

The audio interface I own is Mono, I bought that back when I was trying to use a tower G3 to record way back whenever....

The equipment to sell/keep: I like keeping the Bose/subwoofer combo to give me a different "Mix" to differentiate from a raw monitor sound.
I will probably keep the Yamaha FX as a part of my bass gear (if I can figure out how to replace the MB-1 preamp i sold when I was totally poor)
The Otari will not be sold because I can read meters and plug directly into the tape machine, I'm also a whiz with a splicing block, in case you wanted to know.
Old 12th March 2014
  #18
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Luiz, thank you! i hope to cast off my crutches someday, a discussion for another day.

the Alesis QS 8.2 came with a midi cable that has a "printer" plug on the end. I need Midi to firewire....any ideas?

Last edited by Daily Dave; 12th March 2014 at 11:09 PM.. Reason: post got mixed up
Old 12th March 2014
  #19
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bambamboom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trevon View Post
Don't sell the tape machine you will never get that sound using plugins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Dave View Post
The Otari will not be sold because I can read meters and plug directly into the tape machine, I'm also a whiz with a splicing block, in case you wanted to know.
Sure, if the sound you're after is a bunch of hiss and crap as an effect, maybe. But a plugin like Slate VTM sounds excellent and is only $99, whereas that old tape machine has ongoing tape costs, requires calibration (have you ever aligned it and checked phase etc?), requires maintenance etc etc. It's really not worth having. Sell it now while it still works, it's not going to help anything unless you're going to record punk bands or go for a lo-fi vibe.
Old 12th March 2014
  #20
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bambamboom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Dave View Post
Big bang: I don't know what "Recorder man" technique is, I was only thinking of sending the drums out of the booth "in Stereo" because I guess I was being lazy...


Quote:
I'm confused if Logic will record multiple audio tracks simultaneously, but I guess that would be an issue if my source was 2 channels or 4 or more. My rudimentary understanding so far is only one track at a time. When I open a "new track" I'm not prompted which channel (channels) to record.
Logic will record as many simultaneous tracks as your interface will support. In your case, 16.

http://manuals.info.apple.com/en_US/...user_guide.pdf

If you don't like reading manuals, there are hundreds of youtube Logic tutorials about nearly every topic.

Quote:
The audio interface I own is Mono, I bought that back when I was trying to use a tower G3 to record way back whenever....
Why are you even using that? The Mackie board is a 16 in 2 out firewire audio interface.....
Old 12th March 2014
  #21
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bambamboom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Dave View Post
the Alesis QS 8.2 came with a midi cable that has a "printer" plug on the end. I need Midi to firewire....any ideas?
Midi to USB....

UM-1EX :: Products :: Roland
Old 12th March 2014
  #22
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bigdoghat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Dave View Post
Big Dog, how to route the FX into the board was going to be my next question. Instructions are vague as to how to connect them, return cable vs. stereo.
Sorry Dave, not quite sure what you mean. By "the board" do you mean you'd like your hardware fx returns to appear on the Onyx? And where would they go from there? And how would you send TO the fx?
Old 13th March 2014
  #23
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bambamboom's Avatar
Dave, re-reading this thread I think you need to simplify.

What I suggest will be the simplest approach and give you the best results:

Microphone into Onyx mixer
Onyx Mixer into computer via Firewire
Each mixer input recorded to a separate track in Logic
Mix in Logic, using the MANY MANY provided plugins (compressors, reverbs, delays, eq's etc)
Signal from Logic comes back to your Onyx mixer and to your speakers for control room monitoring
Use your Aux 1 and Aux2 sends on the Onyx for headphone mixes when recording.

Forget about patching in external FX etc. Trying a hybrid analog/digital approach when you are essentially a newbie is just going to be counterproductive until you have more experience. Keep it simple and work "in the box" (ITB)
Old 13th March 2014
  #24
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bigdoghat's Avatar
 

+1 on what bambamboom says, that's exactly the right way to do it. One of the most important things about recording is maintaining your energy levels and being in a good headspace. Oodles of gear hooked up in a complicated manner is going to kill the creative vibe because it's going to slow you down big-time with your level of experience and sap your enthusiasm which is not a place you want to be when you're recording. Just because you have something doesn't mean you have to use it. I have a Lexicon MX200, it's fine, that's about it. It sits in a rack that's for live sound, it's not the Holy Grail of reverbs and it'll bring nothing extra that Logic won't bring so keep it simple and streamlined and don't include it in the equation. Ditto for the Yamaha fx processor.
Old 13th March 2014
  #25
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I had plugged in the FX unit because the quick start manual told me to....

The interface is just sitting on the shelf right now as I bought it years ago before I had OS x.

I guess i am inclined to sell the tape machine primarily because of the cost of tape and what appears to be hit or miss in the quality available.

I will have some time this weekend to give your advice a try.

Thanks again.
Old 13th March 2014
  #26
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bigdoghat's Avatar
 

The other thing about tape Dave, like bamboom says above, you need to be fairly technical to keep one in good condition and at its best. Having worked with tape extensively in the past and again quite recently for a couple of years, if you're not a studio tech, chances are you won't be able to get it fully in tip top shape. Nice tape stock can certainly be bought, ATR Magnetics does great stuff but it ain't cheap. Let's not forget the $200 you'd have to spend on the calibration tape AND learn how to calibrate a tape machine itself unless you want to pay a tech to do it. And it has to be done at regular intervals. Then there's checking the azimuth, the zenith and hope that everything transport and electronics-wise is functioning too. Otherwise you'll be calling that tech again.

If it's been a long time since you used the Onyx, you might need to get new Onyx driver software for your current computer's operating system so the two of them talk, might!! Just mentioning that in case there's issues with it working with your computer, that would be the first place I'd look. Go to Mackie's website and look for "drivers" and the one that matches your OS. It should be there and should be a quick, free download
Old 13th March 2014
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
Sure, if the sound you're after is a bunch of hiss and crap as an effect, maybe. But a plugin like Slate VTM sounds excellent and is only $99, whereas that old tape machine has ongoing tape costs, requires calibration (have you ever aligned it and checked phase etc?), requires maintenance etc etc. It's really not worth having. Sell it now while it still works, it's not going to help anything unless you're going to record punk bands or go for a lo-fi vibe.
Hiss and crap is a matter of how well you keep your tape deck and the tapes. I don't have any audibly noticeable hiss in my recordings.
Old 13th March 2014
  #28
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bambamboom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trevon View Post
Hiss and crap is a matter of how well you keep your tape deck and the tapes. I don't have any audibly noticeable hiss in my recordings.
I was specifically talking about the Otari 5050. Its inputs are actually unbalanced, and at its age unless the OP is skilled in maintaining tape machines I really doubt it is sounding its best. Since the OP is budget conscious, it would be a good item to get rid of, as it has ongoing costs to keep using it.

Also, I can notice hiss in any tape machine, even well maintained "high end" decks. When properly managed you can keep it to a non-issue, but it's still audible.

You couldn't pay me to use a tape machine in a studio anymore. It's just not worth the hassle, and I can get that effect if I want it with VTM etc.
Old 13th March 2014
  #29
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BTW, I'm running Logic express 8

The Onyx and the Mac don't seem to have any problem talking to each other, I need to buckle down and figure what all the widgets do.

It will just be a matter of time and experience to get it down.
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