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Why won't drummers use electronic kit live?
Old 21st November 2013
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypticghost View Post
I think I'm going to add my opinion into this thread.

First of all, so many of you seem to have this negative association towards electric drumkits. I hear many of you saying that the sounds suck. That's true. On a $300 electric kit.
the cymbal sounds suck on any electronic kit at any price. The money is not the reason, the complexity of cymbals has not been 'modeled' and furthermore the sound of cymbals coming out of a SPEAKER is not the true sound of cymbals. Or the true sound of drums for that matter.


Quote:
and even a kit such as this would require hours of tuning, replacement of heads to sound good.
tuning ones instrument is the FIRST responsibility of a musician. If that is "too much" for you, you are not really a musician.
Quote:
A gigging musician should put the money into their rig. Guitarists spend upwards of 4-5 grand on a head + cab.
this money ends up making their instrument sound better and more enjoyable to play. Why should I spend extra money to make myself play something I don't enjoy as much and makes it sound fake?


Quote:
Has the use of keyboards with 'fake' piano sounds been used for convenience or sound factor?
convenience. The sounds sound "pretty good" until the instant that you A/B them against a real piano.

Quote:
they just want to see the artist that they payed money for live
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and the more we play THAT kind of music, the more we contribute to a trend that ends up with nobody but the singer and some DJs on stage. No drummer at all is where this is headed. How can you people not see this? Artistic suicide. I won't be joining you in this race to the bottom.

Quote:
There were days before you guys where people laughed at the idea of even using a standard acoustic kit..
when exactly were those days?
Old 21st November 2013
  #212
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Joeq there are so many bands that use edrums for live and studio.

A quick google search will show you that.
Each to there own....but.... I think you would be surprised by what bands you may have seen live who use triggers and samples as part of there main sound without you even realising it.
Old 22nd November 2013
  #213
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As an owner of both an ekit and an acoustic kit, my two cents would be this - probably in this order:

1. Price barrier - to get anything sounding remotely good, you are staring down a barrel of an ekit that's probably worth more than your car. On the other hand, you can buy an acoustic kit for a few hundred dollars and if you know what you're doing, you can do a few modifications to suit your style that make it sound a few thousand dollars better.

2. Cheese factor - If you are a weddings or covers band, of course it doesn't matter. But for an original rock / organic sounding group, ekits look and sound silly. An acoustic drum kit is a beautiful object and enhances the whole stage.. particularly in a smaller venue.

3. PA power - When you're using an ekit, the WHOLE drum sound is going through the PA. From the deepest oomph of the kick right through to the sizzle of the cymbals. Not many venues in the 200 patron range have a PA that is capable of reproducing that kind of sound on top of all of the other competing instruments and the vocals. With an ekit, there is far less room available out of the PA for the vocals, so if you're playing in a venue so small that the actual room sound of the drums is drowning out the vocals, you will have no hope with an ekit, the PA will likely have to be set to a volume so low that you will be competing with the sound of the sticks hitting the mesh pads.

4. Sound quality - They just don't sound good yet! Particularly through what is probably a sub standard PA. The absolute top-of-the-range ones are starting to sound okay now, but unlike a keyboard which takes up a relatively small part of the harmonic spectrum, the drums are just so noticeable when they are synthesized. Cymbals sound repetitive and cheap, and open hi-hats in particular are just a mess.
Old 22nd November 2013
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielPapak View Post
As an owner of both an ekit and an acoustic kit, my two cents would be this - probably in this order:

1. Price barrier - to get anything sounding remotely good, you are staring down a barrel of an ekit that's probably worth more than your car. On the other hand, you can buy an acoustic kit for a few hundred dollars and if you know what you're doing, you can do a few modifications to suit your style that make it sound a few thousand dollars better.

2. Cheese factor - If you are a weddings or covers band, of course it doesn't matter. But for an original rock / organic sounding group, ekits look and sound silly. An acoustic drum kit is a beautiful object and enhances the whole stage.. particularly in a smaller venue.

3. PA power - When you're using an ekit, the WHOLE drum sound is going through the PA. From the deepest oomph of the kick right through to the sizzle of the cymbals. Not many venues in the 200 patron range have a PA that is capable of reproducing that kind of sound on top of all of the other competing instruments and the vocals. With an ekit, there is far less room available out of the PA for the vocals, so if you're playing in a venue so small that the actual room sound of the drums is drowning out the vocals, you will have no hope with an ekit, the PA will likely have to be set to a volume so low that you will be competing with the sound of the sticks hitting the mesh pads.

4. Sound quality - They just don't sound good yet! Particularly through what is probably a sub standard PA. The absolute top-of-the-range ones are starting to sound okay now, but unlike a keyboard which takes up a relatively small part of the harmonic spectrum, the drums are just so noticeable when they are synthesized. Cymbals sound repetitive and cheap, and open hi-hats in particular are just a mess.
What kind of e-kit do you have?
Old 22nd November 2013
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
the cymbal sounds suck on any electronic kit at any price. The money is not the reason, the complexity of cymbals has not been 'modeled' and furthermore the sound of cymbals coming out of a SPEAKER is not the true sound of cymbals. Or the true sound of drums for that matter.



tuning ones instrument is the FIRST responsibility of a musician. If that is "too much" for you, you are not really a musician.


this money ends up making their instrument sound better and more enjoyable to play. Why should I spend extra money to make myself play something I don't enjoy as much and makes it sound fake?



convenience. The sounds sound "pretty good" until the instant that you A/B them against a real piano.

.
and the more we play THAT kind of music, the more we contribute to a trend that ends up with nobody but the singer and some DJs on stage. No drummer at all is where this is headed. How can you people not see this? Artistic suicide. I won't be joining you in this race to the bottom.



when exactly were those days?
I get the feeling you don't approve of a lot of things in life. I am sorry you don't appreciate all the many facets of music and it is obvious you are from a dying breed. You seem cut about where music is going but I can assure you that live music won't die because of technology, it just evolves. The problem is not all people like change but it will happen whether you like it or not. Do you use tape or do you record straight to hard drive? Does it make you angry because people mix in the box? Are we loosing our artistic integrity because we don't have that analogue mojo? E-kits will become better and better, that's a fact, that's life but I think that no matter how good they become some people like you will always despise them. Among other things I bet.
Old 22nd November 2013
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
I am sorry you don't appreciate all the many facets of music
I fail to understand how my rejection of what I consider inferior tools makes you think I don't appreciate the "many facets of music". The fact is, the only musical genres that actually require 'non-imitative' sounds are not the styles that also require a live human player. I am generally a happy guy. I just happen to be very articulate when expressing my dislike for things that are not very good.

Quote:
and it is obvious you are from a dying breed
here it is 2013, e-drums have been around since the 70's and they still are only 5% of the market. And so many of those kits sold are cheap sets for low-volume practice. You can't claim to be the "new breed" until you reach something approaching a majority. I see young musicians playing drums all the time. I don't see any of them using an e-kit live. Not a one. These are mostly guys in their early 20's - someone needs to warn them THEY are a dying breed!!


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The problem is not all people like change but it will happen whether you like it or not.
Wow, call me crazy, but I like change when it is an improvement, and I dislike change when things get worse.

Here, you like "change"? Why don't you show up for your gigs like this:

How about it, Mr "Change"? Face it, once you are electronic, you are triggering sounds by impulses. You can use your fingers. Any pianist will tell you, you can play more notes, and faster with ten fingers than with two sticks. Surely you are not going to give us the old "feel" argument? Or it "it looks lame argument"?

This is the logical outcome of the future you are advocating because there is nothing about electronic drums that require you hit them with a stick! . You can simply "stand there" tapping your fingers. And talk about ease of transport! And because these are triggered samples, it will sound EXACTLY the same as your e-kit coming out of the speakers. EXACTLY. Tap your fingers! Come on, it's exciting! The audiences 'don't care'!

So why aren't you showing up to your gigs with just an MPC or a Zendrum and tapping on them with your fingers? Samples are samples, after all. It's more 'modern'! It weighs less! It sets up quicker! Why are you still using "Old-Fashioned" bulky, expensive, e-drum sets that require you to sit down and hit large round pads with a stick? Doesn't that make You also part of the dying breed? Look to where the road you are on is leading.

Quote:
E-kits will become better and better, that's a fact
wake me up when they can do cymbals...using future improvements as an argument is an admission that they are currently not 'there' yet.

Most rock bands with e-kits don't want any interesting new sounds anyway, sounds that have never be heard before. They all want to trigger the "Paramore Snare"! As long as this is true, they will always be the step-child. A wannabee instrument.
Old 22nd November 2013
  #217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drum Bum View Post
Joeq there are so many bands that use edrums for live and studio.

A quick google search will show you that.
Each to there own....but.... I think you would be surprised by what bands you may have seen live who use triggers and samples as part of there main sound without you even realising it.
As PART of their main sound... Sure. As THE MAIN sound.... Hardly anyone. Seeing some extra electronic pads with an acoustic kit is fairly common, but an e-kit as your main kit is pretty rare. Please tell us who... Seriously, I would like to know because I can't think of anyone offhand. But I am happy to learn.

The main question is:

What style/genre of music is an e-kit the first choice for?
Old 23rd November 2013
  #218
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Joeq, while I agree with a lot of what you say, you are a bit too dismissive. One example. I remember an interview with Adrian Belew when he went on band on about how awesome his vdrum kit was. I think you are too narrow minded. To most of the rest of us, it's not a religious argument.
Old 23rd November 2013
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Joeq, while I agree with a lot of what you say, you are a bit too dismissive. One example. I remember an interview with Adrian Belew when he went on band on about how awesome his vdrum kit was. I think you are too narrow minded. To most of the rest of us, it's not a religious argument.

well what do you think Adrian Belew will say to my idea of taking those EXACT SAME SAMPLES and triggering them on an MPC or a Zendrum with his fingers? All the "arguments in favor" of an e-kit remain in place. It's convenient, it weighs less, you can switch the sounds and use any library, the soundman can't screw it up, its easier to control the volume.

Any argument against tapping little pads with your fingers is equally applied to e-kits in general - the feel, the visuals, the dorkiness factor.

I have no 'religious' stake in this either, but what is true, is true. When somebody quotes me and argues my point, I will argue back if I think they are wrong. The sound is inferior and they do not FEEL like real drums. All attempts at defending these instruments have failed to address these 2 critical concerns.

And when someone says that my rejection of what I consider inferior tools is an indicator that I don't "appreciate music" or that it makes me part of a "dying breed" well, they should EXPECT to get a somewhat "dismissive" reply.
Old 23rd November 2013
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
well what do you think Adrian Belew will say to my idea of taking those EXACT SAME SAMPLES and triggering them on an MPC or a Zendrum with his fingers? All the "arguments in favor" of an e-kit remain in place. It's convenient, it weighs less, you can switch the sounds and use any library, the soundman can't screw it up, its easier to control the volume.

Any argument against tapping little pads with your fingers is equally applied to e-kits in general - the feel, the visuals, the dorkiness factor.

I have no 'religious' stake in this either, but what is true, is true. When somebody quotes me and argues my point, I will argue back if I think they are wrong. The sound is inferior and they do not FEEL like real drums. All attempts at defending these instruments have failed to address these 2 critical concerns.

And when someone says that my rejection of what I consider inferior tools is an indicator that I don't "appreciate music" or that it makes me part of a "dying breed" well, they should EXPECT to get a somewhat "dismissive" reply.
I was getting bad attitude from you a dozen posts before I said that. You know, I actually thought I was talking to someone that actually had given a high end e-kit system a fair go but just didn't like them until you started doing the comparisons between a quality e-kit(all I have ever addressed) and a MPC or Zendrum. You haven't given them a fair go have you. The differences are a universe apart. "The hate is strong in this one".
Old 23rd November 2013
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
you started doing the comparisons between a quality e-kit(all I have ever addressed) and a MPC or Zendrum. .
The sounds coming out of these devices can be from the EXACT SAME LIBRARY as the "good libraries" you claim make all the "difference". If someone is sitting in the audience with his eyes closed, he will hear the same sounds.

Anything you say about "playability" or "nuance" of a Zendrum vs an e-kit can be equally applied to an e-kit vs a real kit - obviously you don't want to go there - so you dismiss the whole thing with a blanket statement about my experience with e-kits.

anything you say about the "image" or "stage presence" of a Zendrum or an MPC will have the exact same potential for blowback to your original argument, so again, you dare not address them on this basis either.

In conclusion, I would like to say that Zendrums are 'getting better all the time' and it won't be long before they 'surpass' the old-fashioned e-drum sets played with sticks.
Old 24th November 2013
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
The sound is inferior and they do not FEEL like real drums. All attempts at defending these instruments have failed to address these 2 critical concerns.

And when someone says that my rejection of what I consider inferior tools is an indicator that I don't "appreciate music" or that it makes me part of a "dying breed" well, they should EXPECT to get a somewhat "dismissive" reply.
An electric guitar doesn't feel like an acoustic guitar. They are essentially different instruments. From what I understand about Belew, he used vdrums as another creative tool.

They are a legitimate creative tool that many of us use. Sorry you don't have the same opinion, but at the end of the day I will go on using them as a creative tool regardless of what you or anyone else says. I've give you legitimate reasons why they work for me, some pretty specific examples. Some of those involve using them for creative reasons, some of them for more imitative.

It's just your all or nothing approach that gets a bit tiresome. Because you haven't experienced the use of the in a working context, you come out with this all or nothing response. I disagree with you.
Old 24th November 2013
  #223
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Also, I have experience with zen drums. They are another cool creative tool as well. . Not sure why you see to want to rag on them too.
Old 24th November 2013
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
An electric guitar doesn't feel like an acoustic guitar. They are essentially different instruments. From what I understand about Belew, he used vdrums as another creative tool.
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but electronic drums are not an 'instrument in their own right' like an electric guitar or a fender rhodes piano. IMO, this is an inaccurate analogy

nobody uses an electric guitar to replace an acoustic guitar or much less because its more convenient much less because they need to play quietly

nobody loads an electric guitar with dozens and dozens acoustic guitar samples and brags about how it can sound like 'any acoustic guitar you want'

an electric guitar still has physical strings that generate the sound, not switches that trigger previously stored samples

I am not actually "ragging" on Zendrums. I am using them as an example to make a point. The point that once you go electronic with your drums there is no need to have a device that uses sticks. My point is that any arguments in favor of e-drums apply just as well to any little box you tap with your fingers. The sounds that come out are exactly the same. I think many of the drummers who use e-kits will 'draw this line'.. I believe many of them may well cringe at the very thought!

Any arguments someone might make against them are the same arguments I make against e-kits. The same playability and the same cringe factor arguments. Finger-button drums are just the next logical step in this progression. I see no reason to believe that if e-drums DO take over that they will retain the current form-factor of a 'drum set' or that they will require sticks to play them.
Old 24th November 2013
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
but electronic drums are not an 'instrument in their own right' like an electric guitar or a fender rhodes piano. IMO, this is an inaccurate analogy

nobody uses an electric guitar to replace an acoustic guitar or much less because its more convenient much less because they need to play quietly

nobody loads an electric guitar with dozens and dozens acoustic guitar samples and brags about how it can sound like 'any acoustic guitar you want'

an electric guitar still has physical strings that generate the sound, not switches that trigger previously stored samples

I am not actually "ragging" on Zendrums. I am using them as an example to make a point. The point that once you go electronic with your drums there is no need to have a device that uses sticks. My point is that any arguments in favor of e-drums apply just as well to any little box you tap with your fingers. The sounds that come out are exactly the same. I think many of the drummers who use e-kits will 'draw this line'.. I believe many of them may well cringe at the very thought!

Any arguments someone might make against them are the same arguments I make against e-kits. The same playability and the same cringe factor arguments. Finger-button drums are just the next logical step in this progression. I see no reason to believe that if e-drums DO take over that they will retain the current form-factor of a 'drum set' or that they will require sticks to play them.
You don't do any research on current technology before you let fly do you. Two technologies that guitarist use for playing electric guitars to emulate acoustic guitars are the Line 6 Variax and the Roland GR-55. Both these technologies allow the guitarist to use acoustic guitar patches in any tuning they require which is great live. And yes, these have a volume setting. First, being able to have the required tuning in an instant for a song- awesome. Second, using an acoustic live tends to have feedback issues which both these systems negate. Third, using an electric as your main guitar and having acoustic options is a godsend, not ideal, but awesome for the average gigging musician.

You have such strong opinions yet you don't do enough research, which let's your reasoning down. Even a novice drummer would never compare a small pad controller setup to a Roland TD30KV or Yamaha DTX950, ludicrous. You say your a drummer but if you couldn't get a great performance out of my Yamaha DTX950 when so many good drummers are(just do some research.....)what does that really say? The more you write the more you seem uninformed, un-experienced with modern technology and modern music genres. None of us have ever said you will get the same nuances and feel from an e-kit but do the high end e-kits deserve the distain you give them? No, to you we are all wrong all of the time. A great craftsman has all the tools, not just a Phillips screwdriver.

As soon as you compared a pad controller finger pad's sensitivity to a Roland mesh pad or a Yamaha silicon pad's sensitivity it said a lot about your judgement to anybody who reads your statements. Even other drummers that aren't keen on edrums will read that opinion and wonder if you have ever used a Zendrum or a high end E-kit.
Old 24th November 2013
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
As soon as you compared a pad controller finger pad's sensitivity to a Roland mesh pad or a Yamaha silicon pad's sensitivity it said a lot about your judgement
not really. There is no reason on earth why a finger pad's sensitivity MUST be "worse" than a mesh pad's sensitivity. This is simply a matter of design and manufacture. Someone could build it tomorrow.

Some of the greatest drummers on the planet play with their fingers. They are called Tabla drummers. So the human factor will not be a limitation.

Zendrums are getting better all the time! you don't want to face it because you know where this is leading. Down the rabbit hole taking your sit-down e-kit with it. Your response to the logical progression that electronic drums will be taking is just to cite specific models of today and criticize my "research" .

You have no answer to my actual premise: that if e-drums become the "new standard", your old-fashioned sit-down drum set will a thing of the past - mesh pads or no mesh pads. Just like the old fashioned sit down acoustic kits.
Old 24th November 2013
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumbo View Post
I have spoken to many drummers about this.... However, they all seem unwilling to change. It feels better, it just seems right... They seem like the only musicians who aren't willing to change their setups, even though it poses great short comings incertain situations.
did you ever talk to guitaristst suggesting they should use a midi-guitar and a sampler with perfect guitar sounds? no? go, try ...
Old 24th November 2013
  #228
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The future will be the hybrid setup! I've only been drumming around 32 years but I started youngish, I started using vdrums 13 years ago using them on some tours so learnt the hard way but It was worth it! Tbh electronics opened up a whole new universe of possibilities that a conventional drum kit cannot match fact! I use an acoustic kit sometimes and in a conventional way can be satisfying but I feel more expressive as an individual when I use my hybrid kit which is a combination of real bass drum & snare with triggers real cymbals coupled with vdrum pads for toms plus SPD SX & HPD15, with this setup I can cover so much more than with a standard acoustic kit!
Old 24th November 2013
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
not really. There is no reason on earth why a finger pad's sensitivity MUST be "worse" than a mesh pad's sensitivity. This is simply a matter of design and manufacture. Someone could build it tomorrow.

Some of the greatest drummers on the planet play with their fingers. They are called Tabla drummers. So the human factor will not be a limitation.

Zendrums are getting better all the time! you don't want to face it because you know where this is leading. Down the rabbit hole taking your sit-down e-kit with it. Your response to the logical progression that electronic drums will be taking is just to cite specific models of today and criticize my "research" .

You have no answer to my actual premise: that if e-drums become the "new standard", your old-fashioned sit-down drum set will a thing of the past - mesh pads or no mesh pads. Just like the old fashioned sit down acoustic kits.
And how do you set up your hi hat variations on your Zendrum? At least on a quality E-kit you have the ability to set up the hi hat with variable control. You are so far down that rabbit hole of yours it's hard for you to know where fact ends and hallucination begins

Did you notice how that bit of information that I provided you on guitar technology was totally ignored by yourself. Still waiting for your slannnnnnt on that. Should be interesting. Can't wait to see your new Zendrum video on youtube.

It's pretty hard to criticise your research when it's obvious you don't do any. Quite a few of your opinions come from an ignorant position and it's obvious keeping up with modern gear technology isn't high on your list of priorities. I just hope for your sake some guys from the vdrum forum don't read some of your posts. It would be like a sheep's carcass being devoured by a school of piranhas.
Old 24th November 2013
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
And how do you set up your hi hat variations on your Zendrum?
I see cats playing a Zendrum with a pedal. This is usually because they are converting from 'real' drums and want the pedal for kick. But with 10 fingers you could play the kick with one or more buttons and reserve the pedal for the hi-hat. And still stand up!


Quote:
Did you notice how that bit of information that I provided you on guitar technology was totally ignored by yourself.
The analogies about guitars are still weak. Digital pianos vs real pianos is a better analogy. I do not feel I need to refute your every point about guitars in order to NOT LIKE electronic drums.

Quote:
It's pretty hard to criticise your research when it's obvious you don't do any.
I have played enough of these "good" electronic kits and seen enough "good" electronic kits including some of the models you cite, to know I DON'T LIKE THEM. Not as a drummer, not as a teacher, not as a recording engineer, not as a drum teacher. You can toss out your model numbers, and "threaten" me with the other V-drum Forum members, , I have seen and heard what you are talking about and I still think it SUCKS.

What is arrogant is YOU, continually harping on the ridiculous concept that if only I did more "research" or got more "exposure" to the "good stuff" that I would change my mind. I have HAD exposure to your "good stuff". Somehow. incredible as it may seem to you I was not converted.

Get back to us when the cymbals stop sounding like dog****.
Old 24th November 2013
  #231
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You guys should really give this up already.
Old 24th November 2013
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
but electronic drums are not an 'instrument in their own right' like an electric guitar or a fender rhodes piano. IMO, this is an inaccurate analogy

nobody uses an electric guitar to replace an acoustic guitar or much less because its more convenient much less because they need to play quietly
Seriously?

An electric guitar was created to make a louder acoustic guitar. Period.

It evolved over the years to be a different instrument.

Quote:
nobody loads an electric guitar with dozens and dozens acoustic guitar samples and brags about how it can sound like 'any acoustic guitar you want'
No, probably because there is no circumstance where you can not hear a clear and obvious difference. However, in certain styles of music and under certain circumstances, vdrums vs. acoustic drums are almost indistinguishable.

Quote:
I am not actually "ragging" on Zendrums. I am using them as an example to make a point. The point that once you go electronic with your drums there is no need to have a device that uses sticks.
It's a bad argument. Why use a MIDI guitar either?

It doesn't matter that you can use an alternative method to trigger drum samples. You can use an alternative method to trigger a piano sound as well.

Quote:
My point is that any arguments in favor of e-drums apply just as well to any little box you tap with your fingers.
Except for the most OBVIOUS one. You play it in a way you already KNOW if you're a drummer. You have to adjust your playing, sure, but the mechanics are the same. Again, it's a silly argument you are making IMHO.

Quote:
Finger-button drums are just the next logical step in this progression. I see no reason to believe that if e-drums DO take over that they will retain the current form-factor of a 'drum set' or that they will require sticks to play them.
I don't care either way. Ask futureman what he thinks. I know a guy who can play amazing drums on a keytar live. No, it's not the same thing. Neither are electric and acoustic guitars. You're so caught up in your preconceived notions of the way things are "supposed" to be you (IMHO) just can't see the forest through the trees.

Let it go. Others have legitimate (to them) reasons why they want to record analog, or use v-drums, or whatever.

Next thing you're gonna yell at me to get offa your lawn. Funny thing I'm probably older than you.
Old 24th November 2013
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
You have no answer to my actual premise: that if e-drums become the "new standard", your old-fashioned sit-down drum set will a thing of the past - mesh pads or no mesh pads. Just like the old fashioned sit down acoustic kits.
If that is true, then why haven't alternative controllers like the hotz botz or marimba lumina replaced the keyboard? Probably because that's the way keyboard players learned how to play... and the way they still learn.

Same with drummers. A v-kit can be instantly played by a drummer who has learned on acoustic kits. Try doing that with a zendrum.

I don't think e-drums will be a new standard anymore than an electronic keyboard has become a new standard. It's a usable tool in many circumstances, but guess what? In many circumstances people still prefer pianos or organs! Why is that? Because it's not all or nothing!

The moment you let go of your preconceived all-knowing position, the more you can accept... there are legitimate reasons why someone buys a plastic keyboard controller rather than a grand piano or even an upright. Same with a e-kit.
Old 25th November 2013
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Seriously?

An electric guitar was created to make a louder acoustic guitar. Period.
Well according to the OP at least, the e-drums were created to make a SOFTER drum set.

All personal taste aside, you "can" play (for example) heavy metal music with either a real drumset or a v-drumset. But you cannot seriously play heavy metal with an acoustic guitar. e-drums are just a 'substitute' not an instrument in their own right, because there is no genre where acoustic drums would not work just fine. e-drums have not made a penetration into any style so heavily that the style has evolved around e-drums, the way rock music has evolved around the electric guitar.

What "genre" of music would a sampled digital piano be preferable to a well cared for acoustic ? None. Because "Weighs less" is not a "genre"!
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However, in certain styles of music and under certain circumstances, vdrums vs. acoustic drums are almost indistinguishable.
You left out the qualifier: "not counting the cymbals". Also there is a difference between indistinguishable to the audience and indistinguishable to the player. Blindfold me and sit me down at an acoustic kit or an e-kit. I am pretty sure I will be able to 'distinguish'.


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Except for the most OBVIOUS one. You play it in a way you already KNOW if you're a drummer. ...Again, it's a silly argument you are making IMHO.
But how is it you already know this technique? Oh, you learned it on a set of acoustic drums? Well in case you have not heard, old-fashioned "acoustic" drums are going the way of the land-line phone, the film camera and the manual typewriter. The 'floor tom' is no bigger than the 'rack tom'. When "acoustic" drums are firmly "in the past" as we are promised, there is nothing silly about the distinct possibility that the form factor will continue to shrink.

If a student just starting out asked my advice and said he wanted to play only triggered samples, I would send him to Futureman for Zendrum lessons. Seriously.

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Next thing you're gonna yell at me to get offa your lawn. Funny thing I'm probably older than you.
you might be wrong there!

When I was in High School, which was a long time ago, believe you me, my friend made me a stone-age electric drum device. There were erector-set switches that closed contacts to open up a channel. A tape loop of white noise recorded at high and low speeds was the hi-hat and snare. Capacitors firing directly into speakers made the toms and kicks. When samplers came along, I got an S900 and triggered samples off my acoustic kit. I bought an Octapad when they were new. I have played on the "high end" pad kits at sessions, in stores, and a few very weird gigs. I have always been 'in touch' with electric drums.

But none of it compares to a real drum set. Not in sound, not in expressiveness and not in cool factor. Still, in 2013 it does not measure up. And because it is really just a sample-player it will probably never become an instrument in its own right. And to me, the OP's goals to use electronics are for the worst reasons: to "tame" the sound and to "sound just like a recording".
Old 25th November 2013
  #235
Lives for gear
 
mdoelger's Avatar
When I see a drummer with an e-drumset on stage, playing any genre except for maybe EDM, I think to myself what a d**che.

Maybe the most expensive e-drums start to sound ok lately, but come on, where is your pride as a musician? lol

It just looks fu**ing weird and most of all stupid. Of course maybe the audience don't notice or don't care about the sound, but after all they'll care if you as a musician do care.

Think rockband with e-drums. THEY WILL NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY THE AUDIENCE. Period. At least not as much as they would if they used an acoustic set. As soon as you perform in front of others you're selling yourself, your artistry, your vision. Your vision is d**chebag.

Thats about the looks. But what about the sounds? Why do you think that if in STUDIOS they use e-drums only for the drumhits and not for the top set? BECAUSE CYMBALS AND HATS ARE JUST NOT THERE YET. And I think they'll never will. The sound of cymbals being hit with a stick or smashed together is such an organic sound, always different from hit to hit and especially when hit often in a row.

Sure you can use e-drums for demos and such. OK. Fast and inexpensive in terms of recording. However, for a real recording there's almost never e-drums being used. Guess why.
Old 25th November 2013
  #236
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Well according to the OP at least, the e-drums were created to make a SOFTER drum set.
But you know better... right?

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e-drums are just a 'substitute' not an instrument in their own right
I'm not going to get in a semantic argument. I think you are wrong and just looking for small points to "win" the argument.

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What "genre" of music would a sampled digital piano be preferable to a well cared for acoustic ? None. Because "Weighs less" is not a "genre"!
A genre of music where they use a layered piano sound. You know... new age, ambient, R&B for example.

You make my point for me. There are lots of reasons why one would reasonably choose a weighted controller and samples other than weight. Not to mention audio isolation too.

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You left out the qualifier: "not counting the cymbals". Also there is a difference between indistinguishable to the audience and indistinguishable to the player. Blindfold me and sit me down at an acoustic kit or an e-kit. I am pretty sure I will be able to 'distinguish'.
As a player, of course, same with a piano. But I was referring to the end recording. Plenty of genres where you and I can't hear a difference.

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there is nothing silly about the distinct possibility that the form factor will continue to shrink.
You're being silly again. Much like piano is still taught on an electronic keyboard, drums will still be taught on an e-kit if not an acoustic kit.

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When I was in High School, which was a long time ago, believe you me, my friend made me a stone-age electric drum device.
Cool!

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But none of it compares to a real drum set. Not in sound, not in expressiveness and not in cool factor.
Just like that electronic keyboard.

But.. people still choose a keyboard or e-kit. Life is full of compromise and creative choices.

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And to me, the OP's goals to use electronics are for the worst reasons: to "tame" the sound and to "sound just like a recording".
I'm only arguing there are plenty of good reasons to use an electronic keyboard or e-drum. I'm not judging the creative choices of others.
Old 25th November 2013
  #237
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoelger View Post

Think rockband with e-drums. THEY WILL NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY THE AUDIENCE. Period.
Most non musicians (the great majority) won't even notice!! You can't be serious.. Maybe an indie rock band or jam band, but say a cover band? Nobody notices.

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your vision. Your vision is d**chebag.
I, personally, don't care about image. I care about the result. If an e-kit worked, I'd use it.

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Thats about the looks. But what about the sounds? Why do you think that if in STUDIOS they use e-drums only for the drumhits and not for the top set?
Considering most pop and rock drums use drum replacement for at least augmentation, the sound might not be as different as you think. Those same samples are available to a e-kit user. Hi-hat and cymbals are a bit more of a challenge, but they are getting closer every day.

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The sound of cymbals being hit with a stick or smashed together is such an organic sound, always different from hit to hit and especially when hit often in a row.
True! It's only when they are squashed beyond belief and close miked and gated/etc as in a lot of pop music then an e-kit can compete.
Old 25th November 2013
  #238
I'll tell you why. Because some rinky dink bars use cabinets as monitors for the drummer. And set them up right next to the snare drum. And create a living hell
Old 25th November 2013
  #239
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Life is full of compromise
that it is!
the question in the thread title is

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Why won't drummers use electronic kit live?
the answer is: "because its a compromise"

In the OP is not the drummer himself who is seeking this 'convenience' or 'sonic palette' or 'volume control' or whatever the trade-off is supposed to be.

The stubborn drummers in the thread title are being asked to switch, not choosing this compromise on their own. If a gig was a great fun gig, with good money and large enthusiastic audiences, it might be reasonable to expect a drummer to make these sorts of compromises if he was asked.

If the gig is corporate schlock-rock for an audience of old fogies who are complaining about the volume, for a control-freak bandleader who admits he would PREFER it if he could just go out there and sing over a tape, it is hardly surprising that he is having difficulty finding someone willing to go out and purchase a $3000 - $7000 instrument (plus library? plus monitor?) that he doesn't even enjoy playing.

I wonder what the bread is?
Old 25th November 2013
  #240
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
the answer is: "because its a compromise"
Ya, life is a compromise.

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In the OP is not the drummer himself who is seeking this 'convenience' or 'sonic palette' or 'volume control' or whatever the trade-off is supposed to be.
Ya, I can't say I really get it.

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I wonder what the bread is?
I dunno but your numbers are way off. You're much better using a laptop and a copy of BFD/etc rather than using the built in sounds. Then you don't need a top of the line e-kit. Assuming you already have a computer and audio/MIDI interface.. that's a lot cheaper.
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