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Why won't drummers use electronic kit live?
Old 11th November 2013
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
] You pulled apart my post
You made the analogy that real drums/e-drums was the "same" decision for the performing musician as real piano/digital piano. It was a poor analogy and deserved to be pulled apart. A real drum set weighs 50 lbs more than an e-kit. A real piano weighs half a ton more than a digital piano.

There is nothing "unquantifiable" about the weight of a musical instrument. Its weight is measured in pounds and never varies regardless who is doing the weighing.


Quote:
If anyone ever enjoyed their own brand of chocolate more than you I would be surprised..
while I am not shy about expressing my preferences, I never have gone so far overboard as to imply that people who have a different opinion only hold that opinion because they are "uneducated" and that they would change their minds the minute they used the "good stuff".

It is one thing to have your preference and to argue your case. It is another thing to say that those who do not share your preference WOULD agree with you if only they knew "as much" as you know.
Old 11th November 2013
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
You made the analogy that real drums/e-drums was the "same" decision for the performing musician as real piano/digital piano. It was a poor analogy and deserved to be pulled apart. A real drum set weighs 50 lbs more than an e-kit. A real piano weighs half a ton more than a digital piano.

There is nothing "unquantifiable" about the weight of a musical instrument. Its weight is measured in pounds and never varies regardless who is doing the weighing.




while I am not shy about expressing my preferences, I never have gone so far overboard as to imply that people who have a different opinion only hold that opinion because they are "uneducated" and that they would change their minds the minute they used the "good stuff".

It is one thing to have your preference and to argue your case. It is another thing to say that those who do not share your preference WOULD agree with you if only they knew "as much" as you know.
So you obviously believe that if a person has never used or had any experience and thus uneducated with a particular piece of equipment they should be able to bag something into the ground which is one of the biggest pet hates of members on GS. You have implied this twice by your reaction to my opinion that "unless you have had experience with a quality e-drum system you are uneducated and by spending time on such a kit may develop a newfound respect for them". Now you may or may not have played a e-kit system that is comparable to mine but that doesn't mean everyone else has had experience with a high end e-kit system before bagging one. As for your unquantifiable ratios and percentages you have forgotton to factor in the fact that keyboard players need a amp monitor( preferably stereo weighing approx 80lb ), some keyboard players use computers with sample libraries too and there is a huge difference between the weights and setup logistics of acoustic kits depending on the style of music and skill level of the drummer. Then take into consideration that an e-kit packs down to a lot smaller volume than an acoustic kit. Also you don't like the feel of e-drums and that's OK but a lot of piano players don't like the feel of digital pianos either. Would you have been happier if I compared a high end e-kit to a digital calculator? Why don't you just tell the truth and admitt than your just one of these people that start seeing red and have smoke come out your ears as soon as electronic drums are mentioned. And then explain your solution for drums with different genres of music where acoustic drums aren't ideal or don't you respect those styles of music?
Old 11th November 2013
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
So you obviously believe that if a person has never used or had any experience and thus uneducated with a particular piece of equipment they should be able to bag something into the ground which is one of the biggest pet hates of members on GS. You have implied this twice by your reaction to my opinion that "unless you have had experience with a quality e-drum system you are uneducated and by spending time on such a kit may develop a newfound respect for them".
This is exactly what I am talking about! Your assumption that people who disagree with you do so only because they have no experience. Who has said that in this thread? Who has said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobody in this thread ever
I have never used an ekit but I think they suck
your posts are implying that everyone who slags off e-drums WOULD NOT DO SO "if only" they had the benefit of your experience with "quality systems". This is bull.

Many of us have had such experience and we remain unconvinced, and we resent the label of 'uneducated' - as if some amount of further experience with something we don't like is going to make us turn around and like it.

There is another reason that people don't like e-drums besides 'never having encountered the good stuff'... and that is that they simply don't like them.

It is not possible that every single person who dislikes e-drums is "uneducated".
Old 11th November 2013
  #184
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shreddinator's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
This is exactly what I am talking about! Your assumption that people who disagree with you do so only because they have no experience. Who has said that in this thread? Who has said:



your posts are implying that everyone who slags off e-drums WOULD NOT DO SO "if only" they had the benefit of your experience with "quality systems". This is bull.

Many of us have had such experience and we remain unconvinced, and we resent the label of 'uneducated' - as if some amount of further experience with something we don't like is going to make us turn around and like it.

There is another reason that people don't like e-drums besides 'never having encountered the good stuff'... and that is that they simply don't like them.

It is not possible that every single person who dislikes e-drums is "uneducated".
As if I haven't had drummers come in and go " oh an e-kit, but aren't they toys? Then an hour later you still can't get them off it. And yet you still won't broach the subject - what drum kit would you use for music genres where an acoustic kit wont suit the style? And don't act like your not aggressive with your opinions. I suppose you can just put e-drums in that pile of things you don't like but could you please just answer my question before you go? What would you use if the musical style doesn't suit acoustic drums? I really do want to hear your educated opinion.
Old 12th November 2013
  #185
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Can't believe this thread is still going?? Joeq, you still at it? Fellas, All live instruments have evolved... Once upon a time traditionalists even said that electric guitars were a fad and will never become a staple part of live band music? Double bass' evolved to electric bass, piano to keyboards, even accordions have evolved to midi synthesized accordions....not to mention electric violins... And you really think that drums will be the only instrument to remain acoustic?? And you think it's sound will not be replicated to a decent level that the audience accepts it as a drum sound? There is a new breed of Generation Y who are not used to having to work hard at anything. This breed of new drummers will not want to carry a heavy kit, let alone get all the mic leads out, and mic stands, mic a kiting, move microphones around, eq it, fiddle with faders.... No, this new breed will want to turn up, turn the damn thing on and press a few buttons and wallah.

If you think that it will never happen because somehow an acoustic kit in its design alone holds the key to you remaining relevant and needed... Just go back to the early 90's when the new wave of drum machines came on the market, and scores of drummers lost their jobs to the Japanese automatic drummer. I remember those days.
Old 12th November 2013
  #186
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Nothing is held sacred anymore.... Everything evolves, and yes your drum kit will evolve... The acoustic kit will eventually become just like an acoustic guitar.... Used live for certain situations, but not exclusively.
Old 12th November 2013
  #187
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shreddinator's Avatar
I'm just waiting for joeq to answer my question. Pretty hard to "skirt" around it.
Old 12th November 2013
  #188
For me, its a dynamics issue. Electronic drums just don't have the dynamic sensitivity to pick up all the nuances of acoustic drums. That, and the sounds don't even compare. I have an Alesis DM10 Studio kit that only gets used in practice and pre-production settings. Like guitar amps/modelers, there is simply no substitute for vibrations pushing air, especially in percussion.
Old 12th November 2013
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumbo View Post
Seems like such a battle to control just the levels of an acoustic kit and keep it balanced with the rest of the band. Particularly in smaller venues. Also, acoustic kits are a pain to mic up, and only have one sound that can't be interchangeable for different songs.

Why is it that drummers refuse to move with the times, as I suggested our drummer get an electronic kit with a volume control! Got flamed straight away... Who cares about how it feels as a musician, it's the whole band and sound that matters. Me being a Pianists, I would love to play a grand on stage, as it feels right, and sounds like the real deal....but have moved on to keyboards as the most viable option....and as such can use different sounds to compliment each song....why can't drummers do the same?
More and more of us are going for hybrid setups.

Sent from my GT-I9300
Old 13th November 2013
  #190
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Because they sound crap and all sound the same.

And also, if the drummer uses an electronic drum kit then it's a lot harder to hear for the other musicians on stage.

I don't really understand why electronic drum kits exist.
Old 13th November 2013
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxadax View Post
Because they sound crap and all sound the same.

And also, if the drummer uses an electronic drum kit then it's a lot harder to hear for the other musicians on stage.

I don't really understand why electronic drum kits exist.
But Madadax you just posted, in another thread, a photo of your small bedroom setup that uses a Korg Electribe MX drum machine as it's centrepiece. First joeq bagging e-drums but not answering the big question, now you bagging what you obviously use. Welcome to GS.
Old 13th November 2013
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxadax View Post
Because they sound crap and all sound the same.

And also, if the drummer uses an electronic drum kit then it's a lot harder to hear for the other musicians on stage.

I don't really understand why electronic drum kits exist.
They don't all sound the same especially with the option to use ssd 4 etc triggered from a ekit theres loads of options for crafting the sound you want.

What makes it harder for others to hear on stage ?
Do you not use stage monitors or iems ?

Sent from my GT-I9300
Old 13th November 2013
  #193
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by jumbo View Post
Seems like such a battle to control just the levels of an acoustic kit and keep it balanced with the rest of the band. Particularly in smaller venues. Also, acoustic kits are a pain to mic up, and only have one sound that can't be interchangeable for different songs.

Why is it that drummers refuse to move with the times, as I suggested our drummer get an electronic kit with a volume control! Got flamed straight away... Who cares about how it feels as a musician, it's the whole band and sound that matters. Me being a Pianists, I would love to play a grand on stage, as it feels right, and sounds like the real deal....but have moved on to keyboards as the most viable option....and as such can use different sounds to compliment each song....why can't drummers do the same?
I am not going to give you that "digital will never sound as good" speech, but for most drummers, it is a matter of feel. And I mean, the way they beat on the drums, the sensitivity and dynamics of their playing is heavily influences by the type of kit that they are using. An electronic kit with some badass samples might be able to repro a real acoustic kit really closely, but it won't be able to simulate the real hardware, in terms of how a musician relies to it.

It's a matter of being comfortable enough for the instrument, to make the best out of it :-)

ps. it's not uncommon for bands to mix acoustic kits and electronic pads, it works quite well, depending on the genre
Old 14th November 2013
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
What would you use if the musical style doesn't suit acoustic drums? I really do want to hear your educated opinion.
this is a hard question, but not hard in a way that supports your argument

what musical style doesn't suit acoustic drums? I mean really where you say: "acoustic drums? you can't use those here!" There are not that many. And we must first eliminate all situations where the e-drums are being used to "imitate" acoustic drums, or where e-drums are used because they are more 'convenient' which really doesn't leave much.

IOW, if you ask 'in what style of music does FAKE acoustic drums sound better than REAL acoustic drums', the answer has to be none. Fake is fake. Now you can make your arguments for Convenience, but convenience is not sound. If bringing your acoustic drums is a "hassle" and micing them up properly is "time consuming" that does not make e-drums sound better.

They only sound better than a half-assed effort at tuning and micing and playing a real kit.

They don't sound better than a well-done real kit because what they are trying to do is COPY real drums. Trying and falling short. So the only thing that can 'count' is a style where it is supposed to sound obviously fake.

I just mixed a jazz album where the pianist is credited with playing piano, and Rhodes piano. He also owns a digital stage piano and we have one at the studio as well.

Now everyone knows the Rhodes is not a copycat piano, it is an instrument in its own right. But the Digital Piano did not appear on the record. Because it is NOT an instrument in its own right. It is a copycat instrument whose convenience has made it popular. This pianist had access to all three, a Yamaha grand piano, a Rhodes, and a digital piano. To nobody's surprise, he did not bother playing the digital piano! Why the hell would he? He had a Yamaha C7 there, miked up and ready to go!!

It wasn't like there was some song where a fake acoustic piano was going to be more appropriate than a real acoustic piano! It's the same with real drums and fake real drums. This is why your question is 'hard'. Because it's a pretty narrow window once you take your precious convenience out of the equation and just look at sonics and feel.



So what is left as a musical style that 'doesn't suit' acoustic drums? Metal? sorry, no matter how many samples I stick on the kicks and snare, I want my cymbals, my overheads and my room mics in there. All stuff the e-kit doesn't do well or doesn't do at all. And I don't want to play the performance on pads. And I don't have to- I can send my close mics to the triggers.

I am trying to count the number of metal concerts I have seen where the drummer played an e-kit. Still have quite a few fingers left on my first hand. I can make the same statement about ANY genre. There is no such thing as a musical Style where most of the drummers play e-kits.

So the only thing that justifies electronic drums would be drums that actually SOUND electronic. Who uses electronic sounding drums? Well Hip-Hop, Techno, Dubstep maybe.

One problem, these styles of music are based on drum machines. They are rarely performed by a drummer. Live or in the studio, the "beats" are programmed in. You can draw them in with a mouse most of the time. You don't need an e-kit to make a rap beat with an 808 kick, hi-hat, and snare. How many rap concerts have I seen where there was a drummer playing an e-kit? Still getting it all on the fingers of one hand.

The only other thing I could come up with as a music style that maybe "doesn't suit" acoustic drum would be cover bands doing corporate gigs where the bandleader insists that copping the sound of the record exactly is more important than the energy of the live performance.

None for me thanks.

And as I said in several places throughout the thread, it is economic and artistic suicide to accept this premise. You will NEVER cop the record exactly compared to how well a DJ will "cop" the record. If you go down this road, you might as well hand the DJ's card to the employer right now, and say "forget about us - this guy is who you want".
Old 14th November 2013
  #195
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The only thing I would add to this discussion is there are times when circumstances make a v-drum kit playing quality samples a better option, but they are very specific. For example, a low/no budget session where an entire band is playing together in a single small room but will require vocals to be replaced later. There is no way I know of to have all those open mic's isolated enough. So a v-kit makes a lot of sense. That is a studio example, yes. The only reason I can see for using an electronic kit live is if you're an industrial band triggering otherwordly non-drum sounds. Maybe in church where there are extreme volume limitations? I don't know. I don't see a lot of times I'd use them live.
Old 15th November 2013
  #196
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Joeq rather agressively makes his poitn but makes it well, I can't personally say I'd disagree with him.

The only application for edrums I can think of is maybe in a small church band or similar setting where volume & acoustics can be difficult problems with an acoustic kit. Unfortunately you're also looking at a low-budget scenario where your edrums will sound crap, better to get a cajon & mic that instead!
Old 15th November 2013
  #197
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
this is a hard question, but not hard in a way that supports your argument

what musical style doesn't suit acoustic drums? I mean really where you say: "acoustic drums? you can't use those here!" There are not that many. And we must first eliminate all situations where the e-drums are being used to "imitate" acoustic drums, or where e-drums are used because they are more 'convenient' which really doesn't leave much.

IOW, if you ask 'in what style of music does FAKE acoustic drums sound better than REAL acoustic drums', the answer has to be none. Fake is fake. Now you can make your arguments for Convenience, but convenience is not sound. If bringing your acoustic drums is a "hassle" and micing them up properly is "time consuming" that does not make e-drums sound better.

They only sound better than a half-assed effort at tuning and micing and playing a real kit.

They don't sound better than a well-done real kit because what they are trying to do is COPY real drums. Trying and falling short. So the only thing that can 'count' is a style where it is supposed to sound obviously fake.

I just mixed a jazz album where the pianist is credited with playing piano, and Rhodes piano. He also owns a digital stage piano and we have one at the studio as well.

Now everyone knows the Rhodes is not a copycat piano, it is an instrument in its own right. But the Digital Piano did not appear on the record. Because it is NOT an instrument in its own right. It is a copycat instrument whose convenience has made it popular. This pianist had access to all three, a Yamaha grand piano, a Rhodes, and a digital piano. To nobody's surprise, he did not bother playing the digital piano! Why the hell would he? He had a Yamaha C7 there, miked up and ready to go!!

It wasn't like there was some song where a fake acoustic piano was going to be more appropriate than a real acoustic piano! It's the same with real drums and fake real drums. This is why your question is 'hard'. Because it's a pretty narrow window once you take your precious convenience out of the equation and just look at sonics and feel.



So what is left as a musical style that 'doesn't suit' acoustic drums? Metal? sorry, no matter how many samples I stick on the kicks and snare, I want my cymbals, my overheads and my room mics in there. All stuff the e-kit doesn't do well or doesn't do at all. And I don't want to play the performance on pads. And I don't have to- I can send my close mics to the triggers.

I am trying to count the number of metal concerts I have seen where the drummer played an e-kit. Still have quite a few fingers left on my first hand. I can make the same statement about ANY genre. There is no such thing as a musical Style where most of the drummers play e-kits.

So the only thing that justifies electronic drums would be drums that actually SOUND electronic. Who uses electronic sounding drums? Well Hip-Hop, Techno, Dubstep maybe.

One problem, these styles of music are based on drum machines. They are rarely performed by a drummer. Live or in the studio, the "beats" are programmed in. You can draw them in with a mouse most of the time. You don't need an e-kit to make a rap beat with an 808 kick, hi-hat, and snare. How many rap concerts have I seen where there was a drummer playing an e-kit? Still getting it all on the fingers of one hand.

The only other thing I could come up with as a music style that maybe "doesn't suit" acoustic drum would be cover bands doing corporate gigs where the bandleader insists that copping the sound of the record exactly is more important than the energy of the live performance.

None for me thanks.

And as I said in several places throughout the thread, it is economic and artistic suicide to accept this premise. You will NEVER cop the record exactly compared to how well a DJ will "cop" the record. If you go down this road, you might as well hand the DJ's card to the employer right now, and say "forget about us - this guy is who you want".
Well said. End of thread.
Old 15th November 2013
  #198
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Yard View Post
Well said. End of thread.
Not really.

He is definitely right about most things, but as I said above there are other reasons one might use electronic drums based on economics, room layout, etc. I admit they might not be all that common... and certainly I agree it's better most of the time to use acoustic drums. But reality gets in the way.
Old 15th November 2013
  #199
Registered User
In my experience it's because electric drums suck! I've seen a lot of churches use them for Praise and Worship and it's usually a joke.

When the musician doesn't have feel, the music doesn't either.

I'd rather have no drums then electric drums... Seriously.
Old 15th November 2013
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Not really.

He is definitely right about most things, but as I said above there are other reasons one might use electronic drums based on economics, room layout, etc. I admit they might not be all that common... and certainly I agree it's better most of the time to use acoustic drums. But reality gets in the way.
true but my "challenge", was those musical styles which "did not suit acoustic drums". To my way of thinking, there are not many.

if convenience makes you compromise, that's still a compromise. I was only looking to address musical reasons where e-drums would be actually 'better' in the sense of more musically appropriate.

If you were doing a jazz-fusion album, an electric bass guitar might be more appropriate than an upright bass, for example. But you would still find 99% of jazz-fusion bands using an acoustic drumset.

('economics' I think actually favors acoustic drums, especially if you are leaning on the idea that you need to have "the good stuff" to appreciate e-drums.)
Old 15th November 2013
  #201
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
true but my "challenge", was those musical styles which "did not suit acoustic drums". To my way of thinking, there are not many.
Fair enough.

Quote:
('economics' I think actually favors acoustic drums, especially if you are leaning on the idea that you need to have "the good stuff" to appreciate e-drums.)
It can but you are making too broad of a statement. In the case of making a full record and not being able to afford too record in a studio, and not having a space and/or the right gear to record drums, buying an inexpensive electronic kit can be a reasonable choice and a better economic choice... especially if it's used in a demo/woodshedding/jamming and writing scenario. It's especially a better economic choice if you are in a major metro area where getting a room suitable for recording drums is VERY expensive (NYC/SF).

Again.. I think in most cases acoustic is a better choice, but there are lots of reasons why one might choose electronic.

To the guy who says no drums are better, that's your choice. Many people won't record unless they get top of the line signal chains too. Personally I think creativity is more important than anything else, but we can agree to disagree.
Old 16th November 2013
  #202
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hi I think acoustic drums are just so awesome in a live setup, but I like electronic drums to so a mix of both I think is the go. Peace
Old 17th November 2013
  #203
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shreddinator's Avatar
If you do a little research joeq you will see e-kits are used live by a lot of famous professional musicians. Your strong...... opinions are not shared by everybody, especially some very famous and technically proficient musicians. Hybrid kits are being used by a large percentage of drummers and by your own admission you use samples as well while mixing???? What's with that anyway? Kind of goes against your grain doesn't it. That was a statement not a question. My opinions are based on hours and hours of research, listening to plenty of other peoples experiences mixed with my own, not just my own.... When I suggested to people that they try a high end e-drum system it was as much to offset jaded views towards e-kits as it was to say, hey if you haven't tried it, don't knock it. So yours is the jaded view and that's your right but just because you feel so strongly don't make it right. And a hybrid kit is still part e-kit and if it's good enough for Neil Peart and a lot of other greats, it's good enough for me. As far as you stating that acoustic drums cover pretty much every style or genre of music I have one question for you. How many different styles of music do you listen to live?
Old 17th November 2013
  #204
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Maxadax's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
But Madadax you just posted, in another thread, a photo of your small bedroom setup that uses a Korg Electribe MX drum machine as it's centrepiece. First joeq bagging e-drums but not answering the big question, now you bagging what you obviously use. Welcome to GS.
Nope
Old 17th November 2013
  #205
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G-Sun's Avatar
Too loud drums and el.guitar are for me a huge problem regarding live shows.
And then some sound techs join the loudness-war..

Personally I'm thinking alternative drumsets, like cajun or something
Old 17th November 2013
  #206
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
If you do a little research joeq you will see e-kits are used live by a lot of famous professional musicians. Your strong...... opinions are not shared by everybody, especially some very famous and technically proficient musicians. Hybrid kits are being used by a large percentage of drummers and by your own admission you use samples as well while mixing???? What's with that anyway? Kind of goes against your grain doesn't it. That was a statement not a question. My opinions are based on hours and hours of research, listening to plenty of other peoples experiences mixed with my own, not just my own.... When I suggested to people that they try a high end e-drum system it was as much to offset jaded views towards e-kits as it was to say, hey if you haven't tried it, don't knock it. So yours is the jaded view and that's your right but just because you feel so strongly don't make it right. And a hybrid kit is still part e-kit and if it's good enough for Neil Peart and a lot of other greats, it's good enough for me. As far as you stating that acoustic drums cover pretty much every style or genre of music I have one question for you. How many different styles of music do you listen to live?
Regardless of whether I like them or not, e-kits are hardly ever used as an artistic choice over acoustic kits. Perhaps an economic choice or a practical choice because of sound levels (eg in a theatre). There is no style of music where they are the artistic choice. Drum machines, yes. Techno, electronica etcetera etcetera all rely on programmed drums, but not e-kits.

As far as hybrid setups, I agree these are fairly common. However, usually the main part of the kit is acoustic and the electronic drums are supplementary. I've personally never seen a hybrid setup which is primarily the e-kit with a few acoustic bits added on. Maybe there are some but it must be very rare. If you can show us the top professional drummers who use e-kits live or hybrid setups which are mainly electronic then I am happy to learn.

I'm not being 'jaded' as you put it as I have not discussed what my feelings are about this, just what common practice is.
Old 17th November 2013
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
As far as you stating that acoustic drums cover pretty much every style or genre of music I have one question for you. How many different styles of music do you listen to live?
I listen to every style of music live. From rock to metal to punk to blues to jazz to classical to country to Haitian Voodoo drumming, to traditional Irish music, to Flamenco, to Salsa, to Klezmer, to Indonesian Gamelan, to Eastern European brass ensemble, to avant-garde art songs, to hippie meditation music, to Jamaican Steel Pan Hip Hop. And I am sure a dozen other styles I can't think of right now.

I can count on the fingers on one hand the bands that use e-drums as their primary percussion live on stage. And most of those bands IMO would have been better off using real drums. The sound really sucked - especially the cymbals. As The Famous Yard just said. The decision to use electronic drums is almost always for 'convenience', 'safety' and occasionally economics. Though lord knows they are not cheap.

The only band I saw using an e-kit where I did not think real drums would have been more appropriate was an electronica trio where the other two musicians played "lead laptop" and "rhythm laptop"


Quote:
And a hybrid kit is still part e-kit and if it's good enough for Neil Peart and a lot of other greats, it's good enough for me.
Peart's e-drums are a small fraction of his entire kit sitting in a little rack BEHIND him. Is that the position your electronic drums are in?

Quote:
hey if you haven't tried it, don't knock it.
I have tried it and I feel perfectly within my rights to knock it!

I don't like e-kits as a drummer
I also don't like e-kits as a drum teacher
I also don't like e-kits as a sound engineer
I also don't like e-kits as an audience member
Old 17th November 2013
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Too loud drums and el.guitar are for me a huge problem regarding live shows.
And then some sound techs join the loudness-war..

Personally I'm thinking alternative drumsets, like cajun or something
In my experience no human flesh-and-blood drummer can keep up in volume with a couple of Marshall stacks a GK bass rig, and a big house PA system. Indeed, in all but the smallest venues, the drums are miked up.

Once the drums are miked, if the acoustic drums are "too loud", that can hardly be blamed on the type of drums themselves!

Just turn those mics down.

If a situation is so low-volume that the drummer is the loudest thing in the band, then certainly alternatives are reasonable. But those alternatives can include a drummer with control, rods, brushes, muffling the drums, or as you suggest, hand percussion. E-drums are not the only possible solution and IME the fake sound of them tends to clash with those coffeehouse styles of music that require lower volumes overall.
Old 18th November 2013
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

Once the drums are miked, if the acoustic drums are "too loud", that can hardly be blamed on the type of drums themselves!

Just turn those mics down.
Yes, but in the case of FOH some percussion going through the speakers are sonically preferable, so the perc. blends well with the other miced instruments.
Not much needed though.

Of course nothing beats a purely acoustic concert (imo) but that's not always easy to accomplish.
Old 21st November 2013
  #210
Here for the gear
 

I think I'm going to add my opinion into this thread.

First of all, so many of you seem to have this negative association towards electric drumkits. I hear many of you saying that the sounds suck. That's true. On a $300 electric kit. But the same is applicable to any $300 acoustic set, and even a kit such as this would require hours of tuning, replacement of heads to sound good.

A gigging musician should put the money into their rig. Guitarists spend upwards of 4-5 grand on a head + cab.
On that note, I think the OP is right when he states that music is changing. Early rock n roll wasn't electric bass or hardly electric guitar, but now look at it. Has the use of keyboards with 'fake' piano sounds been used for convenience or sound factor? IMO, the sounds are pretty damn good, especially in a live setting.

Good electric kits will give you nuance in sounds, and you don't have to go get a 10 grand roland kit to do so; anything in their slightly lower/used range will still give you use of multiple stick sounds and even timbre changes depending on where you hit.

Backing tracks/extra stage musicians, lights, IEMs, digital modellers, e-kits, etc. are the way of the live performance (particularly with big bands with record deals). I know that many of you on GS say that you want to hear 'real' music live, but I don't think many people care in the audience if they hear a synth or two not played live on the stage... they just want to see the artist that they payed money for live.

I find it funny reading posts from people here stuck in the old days with tube amps and acoustic kits, etc. There were days before you guys where people laughed at the idea of even using a standard acoustic kit..
I do think e-kits will be used more in the future, and I believe that's a positive thing. It gives drummers a way to change the sound of their kit between songs and opens up the possibilities of multi-mix/sounding kits depending on the song. This puts the drums in the same perspective of electric guitars, keys and even bass guitar. It opens up a whole new world of live music. IMHO...
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