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Why won't drummers use electronic kit live?
Old 26th October 2013
  #151
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cavern View Post
Bit of a strech don't you think.Of course Zilgian and companies like that are going to cater to the e-kit market,why not its more money,good business sense.It doesn't mean everything is shifting.All i know is when i go into a music store,there are usually about 10/15 acoust. kits and 2/3 e-kits.
There's a market for e-kits, i own one but we'll see if the takover is shortlived or not.Solid state was supposed to wipe out tubes but...never happenned.
Humans crave reality so we'll see.
edrums have been around for nearly 35 years. And they haven't taken over yet.
Old 26th October 2013
  #152
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smili's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j2dafo View Post
Sometimes it's hard to tell from behind the kit. Especially if he has a dedicated monitor mix.
Based on my limited stage experience (guitar) - this is 100% true. On stage I had no idea if it sounded good out front or not. I just learned to trust the sound guy to balance the mix and kept playing - even if I couldn't hear myself or other parts of the band.

After we'd play I'd often as people if it sounded good - and only then is when I'd find out (usually the affirmative). I'd guess it's very similar for a drummer too.
Old 26th October 2013
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Format C: yes View Post
You don't see Roland and Yamaha building acoustic kits the market is clearly treading oneway.
LOL. Yeah, because Yamaha don't make acoustic drums.

Acoustic Drum Sets - Drums - Musical Instruments - Products - Yamaha United States

With comments like that maybe that is why this thread had to be moved to the Newbies forum.
Old 26th October 2013
  #154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Format C: yes View Post
I was told this at my local music store just tryed to look it up but cannot find any data....
That's what I thought. A salesman.
Old 26th October 2013
  #155
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Format C: yes View Post
Rubbish unless your band is entirely acoustic you are already down the sounds like a cd road....
.
read the OP's posts!

you may not want to go quite so FAR down the "sounds like a CD" road as he is headed!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jumbo
...Quite honestly, to answer your question, I would quite happily replace the drummer, bass player and everybody and maybe just keep the trusted guitarist if I could... One or two less headaches to worry about, and put up with....We need to get over what we define as a band....Only reason really I have a drummer for my shows is because people come in and sit down and watch ....It has happened that we have played alongside a dj at a wedding, and the crowd preferred the dj,....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Format C: yes
Ekits are being used more and more
It's a little over 5% of total drum sales. And a lot of those are going to school labs and children of disapproving parents. People are playing over tracks "more and more" and clubs are hiring DJs "more and more", too! If your band is using an ekit, that still makes them part of the exception, not the rule.

In any case, when you get rid of your drummer altogether, when your goal is to sound so tamed and compressed that what you want is just a singer and some prerecorded tracks, then you and jumbo can be said to be on the same page!

And- as I was trying to say in my post that you took as a swipe against your precious edrums - while some immediate benefit may seem to be dangled in front of you, at the END of the "sound like a record" road is Band Suicide.

When you do get to the point where you sound 'just like a CD', you will undoubtedly sound like a worse CD than the CD of the artist you are covering, because plain and simple, you are not them! So if the club owner has a decision between paying five guys to sound 'sort of' like a famous artist's CD and paying one guy to sound exactly like the famous artist's CD, guess which one he is going to choose?


This thread may have started out as: acoustic vs electronic drum kit , but the OP has since admitted his 'control' issues extend far beyond that. He has admitted he would prefer to not even have a band, just play over tracks. THAT's how much he wants to 'control' the sound.

Is that where you are coming from as well?
Old 26th October 2013
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
And- as I was trying to say in my post that you took as a swipe against your precious edrums - while some immediate benefit may seem to be dangled in front of you, at the END of the "sound like a record" road is Band Suicide.
The disconect with the people who actually give you the money.
Better yet,don't get out of bed,mail it in,f***k it.
Old 27th October 2013
  #157
Gear Nut
I think a huge difference is that if you hear a play back of a show where the drummer was using a ekit, it will sound good, but if you are actually in the venue while the show is happening, you will hear the difference between an ekit and an acoustic kit.
Acoustic drums are going to sound better in a face to face environment.
I personally prefer acoustic drums, because they just have a more natural, more open, more ACOUSTIC sound. But with that said, because I am on a budget I use superior drummer to do all of my recording with. I feel in a listening back environment samples can sound just fine, but you can not beat the sound of an acoustic kit live!
Old 8th November 2013
  #158
nog
Gear Nut
 

Usually, it's the guitar player that's too loud. Acoustics drums just LOOK and sound much better than edrums. I wouldn't want a drummer who knows about electronics anyway, haha! But seriously, I've seen a gazillion bands and there aren't that many where I felt that the drums were way too loud. If your drummer doesn't have dynamics, you should work on that with him/her.
Old 8th November 2013
  #159
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Realziment's Avatar
 

Feel has a lot got to do with it. Feel effects how a player plays the instrument. And I agree with whoever said the sounds are inferior in the best of e kits and the pianos too. I dont know how they get away with charging that much with those ****ty sounds. To me the V Piano barely has a usable sound in it. V drums where great when they first come out. Now you can get addictive drums and 500 dollar trigger kit and while it wont feel as good as v drums, the end product sounds better than stock v drums.
Old 8th November 2013
  #160
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwrmac7600 View Post
I think a huge difference is that if you hear a play back of a show where the drummer was using a ekit, it will sound good, but if you are actually in the venue while the show is happening, you will hear the difference between an ekit and an acoustic kit.
Acoustic drums are going to sound better in a face to face environment.
I personally prefer acoustic drums, because they just have a more natural, more open, more ACOUSTIC sound. But with that said, because I am on a budget I use superior drummer to do all of my recording with. I feel in a listening back environment samples can sound just fine, but you can not beat the sound of an acoustic kit live!
I'm not sure I'd agree with that at all. We've played many venues in which we were the only band using an e-kit, and from the audience feedback we were undoubtedly the best sounding mix...even from fans of the other bands.

I think the resistance to e-kits is the same as resistance to modeling amps and comes from two places...fear of the image it projects to the audience, and a lack knowledge of how to use them to get the best sound for a given song.

Bear in mind, your audience can't really tell much difference in the slight nuances of sound that most musicians fixate on. But they can tell the difference when the mix isn't right and they can't hear the singer clearly, or the guitar doesn't punch through, or the drums sound too "boomy" in the mix.

We choose to use electronic drums and modeling amps because it allows us to have better control over the entire sound of what we're doing. A jazzy song or a 50's rock and roll number will always sound better with a Rogers drum set and a Fender amp because that's what people in the audience are used to hearing on most recordings. Likewise a Rock song will likely sound better with a Ludwig and a rectified Marshall with arena style ambience. Blues...same kind of scenario. So clearly there are advantages if your playing multiple styles.

More importantly is the ability to tweek the tuning and mix of the drums and have them stay consistent in the mix performance after performance. Acoustic drums can be effected not only by the mic's, but also by the humidity, temperature, and any number of other things (including lazy drummers that don't keep them tuned). Ekits stay the same all the time once they're tuned in.

But probably the greatest single advantage is the ability for your stage sound to be more representative of your FOH sound. When you have volume control on your stage you can mix your sound naturally and there's not as many wide variations at the mixing board. The band can sound tighter because they can hear each other and blend amongst themselves, especially if you tend to use a lot of dynamics in your songs.

The trick with ekits is getting the drummer to understand the options and how to set them up and save them as presets, as he is truly in charge of the mix and sound of each drum and cymbal...same as with the guitars on modeling amps. In my opinion these technologies allow us to come closer to a recording mix in a live environment...and that makes a HUGE difference to your audience.
Old 8th November 2013
  #161
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunedindragon View Post
I'm not sure I'd agree with that at all. We've played many venues in which we were the only band using an e-kit, and from the audience feedback we were undoubtedly the best sounding mix...even from fans of the other bands.
But were you the most exciting?

Quote:
I think the resistance to e-kits is the same as resistance to modeling amps and comes from two places...fear of the image it projects to the audience, and a lack knowledge of how to use them to get the best sound for a given song.
How does it feel playing your ekit and guitar amp emulators? I think a lot of emulations/Guitar Rig etc. sound pretty good but they don't feel nice to play through. I don't think they encourage a good performance.

Quote:
Bear in mind, your audience can't really tell much difference in the slight nuances of sound that most musicians fixate on.
Exactly.

Quote:
But they can tell the difference when the mix isn't right and they can't hear the singer clearly, or the guitar doesn't punch through, or the drums sound too "boomy" in the mix.
They may be able to tell a little. They can definitely tell if they are having a good time or not. And that doesn't depend on the mix unless something truly horrible is happening at FOH.

Quote:

We choose to use electronic drums and modeling amps because it allows us to have better control over the entire sound of what we're doing. A jazzy song or a 50's rock and roll number will always sound better with a Rogers drum set and a Fender amp because that's what people in the audience are used to hearing on most recordings. Likewise a Rock song will likely sound better with a Ludwig and a rectified Marshall with arena style ambience. Blues...same kind of scenario. So clearly there are advantages if your playing multiple styles.
Not really. Because your electronic setup will always be a compromise for every style. Whereas you can jazz it up an a Ludwig kit and a Marshall. Just switch off your "arena-style ambience" and go on the clean channel. You get my drift.

Quote:
More importantly is the ability to tweek the tuning and mix of the drums and have them stay consistent in the mix performance after performance.
Consistency in sound night after night? Is that really your goal? Yes you want it sound good but every room is different. If you really want consistency you can clip the mics onto the drums so the position is always the same.
Quote:

Acoustic drums can be effected not only by the mic's, but also by the humidity, temperature, and any number of other things (including lazy drummers that don't keep them tuned). Ekits stay the same all the time once they're tuned in.
Then get your drummer to learn how to maintain his instrument like everyone else does.
Quote:
But probably the greatest single advantage is the ability for your stage sound to be more representative of your FOH sound. When you have volume control on your stage you can mix your sound naturally and there's not as many wide variations at the mixing board. The band can sound tighter because they can hear each other and blend amongst themselves, especially if you tend to use a lot of dynamics in your songs.
But the FOH guy is hearing the PA like the audience. He/she should be adjusting the mix. You are on stage. You have no idea what it sounds like out front. And I don't want my stage sound to sound like the FOH. I want me louder so I know what I'm doing. I may want less of one guy or more of someone else than is right for FOH. I agree with getting your monitoring right, and for that reason I bring my own amp or monitor whatever instrument I play (bass, gtr or keys).

Quote:
In my opinion these technologies allow us to come closer to a recording mix in a live environment...and that makes a HUGE difference to your audience.
In my opinion you don't go to a live show for a hi-fi demonstration. Even the big pop performers who try and make it sound like a record make sure they put on a show. I've never come back from a gig raving about the sound if the performance was lacklustre. Whereas I have really enjoyed gigs where the performance was great and sound was ok. If your ambition in your gigs is "to come closer to a recording mix in a live environment" then I think you have some thinking to do. That is not what playing live is about. I think you guys should go to rehearsal room, smack some drums and crank up the amps and have some fun. Then go back to your e-band gear and see if you're still enjoying yourself. If you're not enjoying yourself as much then how about the audience. "I saw dunedindragon's band the other night. They had an excellent sound out front. The balance was just right. And their drum sound is SO consistent night after night!" Wouldn't you rather hear "Wow! I was blown away by those guys. The way the play and gel together is amazing. Such energy and passion."

PS I am not trying to be rude or anything; just making a point. All meant in the spirit of constructive criticism.
Old 8th November 2013
  #162
Quote:
Originally Posted by jumbo View Post
Thanks guys for your input. It's not so much how inept the drummer is, as he is a very good, experienced muso.... But more what the audience expects. I'll recap, it's a 60's show, Tom jones, engelbert Humperdinck type music that attracts... You guessed it, old timers. They expect the full gamut of string arrangements, brass sections.... That's what they want to hear, and of course the vocals is most important, and they couldn't care less about drums...and the music has to all be played at a comfortable volume as old people cannot tolerate high levels of noise.
I think as musicians, we have come accustomed to play for ourselves rather than what the audience wants... Audience ears are changing, they hear recorded music that is quantized and bright, and if your band plays without a click.... For today's audiences, It sounds too loose. Likewise, drum kits on stage particularly in a small venue where it is not tamed sound nothing like a drum kit on a modern recording.... Once a casual listener experiences a live drum kit for the first time in a long time, remember their ears are accustomed to what they hear on iPods, and the live drum kit all of a sudden sounds way too dynamic, muddy, and dominates, and to those listeners... It sux, which then means your band sux.

To further demonstrate my point, one of my band members works on the show Australian X factor as a musical director, and for their live shows all drum tracks and allot of instrumentation is pre programmed! and the only live instruments would be a piano or a guitar. Why? Because that's the sound modern listeners are used to, one that is eq'd, compressed, and in balance. Live music audiences are no different.

Feel free to flame me, but keep in mind the music we play May be totally different to what your used to. We play ticketed events, of old classics where melody, vocals, harmony and a more orchestral sound should dominate. Just saying, these days, if it sounds nothing like the cd, in the eyes and ears of the audience.... You suck
this entire premise I have to say is idiotic, TELL THE DRUMMER TO HIT SOFTER.
I am familiar with the style of music you play, and really it's very simple, don't hit so hard, get a plexi screen in front of the drums.It sounds to me like you have the wrong drummer, so tell him if he wants to keep his gig, to play quiet. If he's a real musician he can do it. Even in a small venue this is EASILY taken care of. I've been a working musician for for a long long time and I've worked in all sorts of situations from rock bands to show bands to tiny jazz groups, to corporate events to weddings, and in every situation an acoustic drum kit has been better. And these days wedding bands have to compete more and more with dh's who play music REALLY loud, so the wedding bands are buying big PA's and putting everything in the house, I seen some of these bands that play with amp sims and electronic drums and they sound like bad karaoke tracks.
Old 8th November 2013
  #163
Quote:
Originally Posted by nog View Post
Usually, it's the guitar player that's too loud.
actually thats a misperception, it's really the keyboard player who's too loud, but the guitar player gets the blame.
Old 8th November 2013
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Yard View Post


They may be able to tell a little. They can definitely tell if they are having a good time or not. And that doesn't depend on the mix unless something truly horrible is happening at FOH.

Ain't that the truth! I posted this in another thread. And who says a real drum has to be loud?

Here is a drummer on a live studio recording that everyone knows. Small drum kit, super quiet, playing next to a mic'd acoustic guitar and live singing, and you can see the huge smile on the drummer's face.

Old 8th November 2013
  #165
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunedindragon View Post
Bear in mind, your audience can't really tell much difference in the slight nuances of sound that most musicians fixate on.
This is very true, but real drums vs e-drums is more than a slight nuance. Unless you are doing a stadium gig, I think almost any audience member can tell the difference between a real kit live in the room and drums coming out of a speaker!

In fact, that's the OP's whole complaint, as he is convinced his old-fogey audiences DON'T WANT the attacky present sound of real drums and real cymbals. That it 'upsets' them.

Now if your audiences do want it, I don't think they are going to be satisfied with an electronic kit. But either way this is a lot more obvious to the audience than something like the guitarist who thinks he 'can't play' the song because his delay pedal is not dialed in.
Old 9th November 2013
  #166
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
In fact, that's the OP's whole complaint, as he is convinced his old-fogey audiences DON'T WANT the attacky present sound of real drums and real cymbals. That it 'upsets' them.
this makes lots of sense when you think that people who like that music and want it to sound like what they remember fondly remember all of those electronic drums on Englebert Humperdink records……….. maybe NOT!
Old 9th November 2013
  #167
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab View Post
this makes lots of sense when you think that people who like that music and want it to sound like what they remember fondly remember all of those electronic drums on Englebert Humperdink records……….. maybe NOT!
heh

well the OP's point is that the sound on a record is a close-miked kit with compressors and EQs and all sorts of 'taming' going on, and on a pop record, probably mixed pretty low. He feels the e-kit more closely mimics that.

Personally I disagree with the idea of giving in to this mindset, as IMO it is a form of artistic suicide. Once you 'agree' with this idea that the energy of live performances and the sounds of live instruments are "bad" or are just an attempt to mimic the recording as "closely as possible", you are basically telling the club owners: hire a DJ!

I recently saw a Broadway show where the drummer was not in the pit, but rather backstage somewhere in a separate room. The drums were miked up and by any standards "tamed", perhaps this helped the sound man run the whole system quieter and still get clarity on the vocals, but there was no PUNCH to the drum sound. And of course, you can always tell the difference between a cymbal in the room and a cymbal coming out of a speaker, even in a very large room.

I know the guy. He was a live human drummer, actually playing in real time, but really that's probably only because Broadway is one of the last places that still has a Musician's Union.
Old 9th November 2013
  #168
A electric piano with weighted keys still feels like a piano. Electric drums do not feel like acoustic which drummers are used to.

This is Gearslutz too, has nobody thought about basic acoustics?!

It's unnatural to hit a drum and have the sound originate from a different location. Pianists are some what used to this as their sound doesn't originate from the keys but as a direct result of the hitting the keys, hitting the hammers, hitting the strings.
Old 9th November 2013
  #169
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skycaptain's Avatar
As a drummer who as played for the last 10 years, the answer is simple. Drummers want to play drums. they don't want to play plastic. with electric kits, there is something about them that just feels plastic. The rubber and mesh heads don't give you the instant gratification and vibration that a real drum head does. The plastic/rubber cymbals don't move like a real cymbal. Real cymbals move and react to the playing of the drummer. some Electric kits might sound amazing, and sure, you have more control over levels and whatnot, but plain and simple, its not as fun. Not nearly as fun. And when a musician can't enjoy playing his instrument, he isn't going to sound as good. That's why I don't play electric kits

Sent from my SGH-T769
Old 9th November 2013
  #170
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Yard View Post
But were you the most exciting?
...
In my opinion you don't go to a live show for a hi-fi demonstration. Even the big pop performers who try and make it sound like a record make sure they put on a show. I've never come back from a gig raving about the sound if the performance was lacklustre. Whereas I have really enjoyed gigs where the performance was great and sound was ok. If your ambition in your gigs is "to come closer to a recording mix in a live environment" then I think you have some thinking to do. That is not what playing live is about. I think you guys should go to rehearsal room, smack some drums and crank up the amps and have some fun. Then go back to your e-band gear and see if you're still enjoying yourself. If you're not enjoying yourself as much then how about the audience. "I saw dunedindragon's band the other night. They had an excellent sound out front. The balance was just right. And their drum sound is SO consistent night after night!" Wouldn't you rather hear "Wow! I was blown away by those guys. The way the play and gel together is amazing. Such energy and passion."

PS I am not trying to be rude or anything; just making a point. All meant in the spirit of constructive criticism.
Apparently you have an argument for every point I'm making, even if your point makes no sense. That tells me you have an emotional rather than logical attachment to the approach you choose.

The truth is neither my audience nor your audience comes away saying "their drums sound is so consistent night after night" nor "they play with such energy and compassion". They either connect and identify with your performance or they don't...and that has less to do with your equipment and more to do with the professionalism, authenticity and novelty of your presentation. In all likelihood, in the vast majority of cases audiences can't really distinguish between your band and 2,000 others they could be watching...unless you're SIGNIFICANTLY different. Generally speaking that's because the musicians onstage are more self-absorbed with what THEY want than what might catch the audience's attention as "something fresh and different".

Live music is ultimately a business, with an extraordinarily high failure rate. The tools we use (the equipment) is really not a major point in that success and failure...although we'd like to believe it is. Planning, preparation, creativity, passion, and DISCIPLINE are the major factors that really determine the longevity and success of a band just as they are in any business. The lack of such things is a major reason why the live music environment is so dismal today as compared to 40 years ago when the vast majority of musicians SOLE source of income came from playing 6 nights a week in thousands of clubs across the nation. In that environment you were either a professional, or you weren't booked. Nowdays you're lucky to be booked twice a week...so it takes MUCH longer to mature professionally.
Old 9th November 2013
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Ain't that the truth! I posted this in another thread. And who says a real drum has to be loud?

Here is a drummer on a live studio recording that everyone knows. Small drum kit, super quiet, playing next to a mic'd acoustic guitar and live singing, and you can see the huge smile on the drummer's face.

That guy (drummer) is on some serious drugs. Ain't nobody normally that happy...
Old 9th November 2013
  #172
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shreddinator's Avatar
Unless you have spent real hours on a very high end e-kit I can see why so many people bag e-kits. But get a Yamaha DTX950 or a Roland TD30KV and hook it up to a hi spec computer with BFD3 or Superior Drummer 2 and you may find a rising respect for them. If you haven't tried this then any opinion that you offer on e-drums is uneducated but you get plenty of that on this site. And if you want to know where I am coming from go back and look at the pictures of my acoustic kit in this thread. Then think of the logistics of moving and miking my Yamaha Maple Custom Absolute Nouveu around and then compare it to my Yamaha DTX950 on the same page. Yes E-kits do have their uses but if you have never used the best do you even have a clue. My DTX950 with my sample libraries sh$ts on most of the low quality acoustic kits I have seen. Sure if your playing complex drum parts you don't quite get the same nuances but that accounts for 5 % of music these days.
Old 9th November 2013
  #173
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
Unless you have spent real hours on a very high end e-kit I can see why so many people bag e-kits. But get a Yamaha DTX950 or a Roland TD30KV and hook it up to a hi spec computer with BFD3 or Superior a Drummer 2 and you may find a rising respect for them. .... Yes E-kits do have their uses but if you have never used the best do you even have a clue. My DTX950 with my sample libraries sh$ts on most of the low quality acoustic kits I have seen. Sure if your playing complex drum parts you don't quite get the same nuances but that accounts for 5 % of music these days.
BINGO!!!!!
Old 9th November 2013
  #174
nog
Gear Nut
 

Wow, just re-read the OP. jumbo, if you haven't played an acoustic kit, you should check it out. You don't need a volume knob, you just hit harder or softer. I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but it's just that simple. Real drums are SO much fun to play! Nothing like hitting a well tuned snare or a nice crash cymbal. I would not want my drum sound to come out of a monitor wedge.
Old 10th November 2013
  #175
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunedindragon View Post
Apparently you have an argument for every point I'm making, even if your point makes no sense.
I'm sorry if I didn't make sense. I try to be clear. And again, I'm not trying to be rude or have a go at you. Just presenting a different point of view.

Quote:
That tells me you have an emotional rather than logical attachment to the approach you choose.
I think that's absolutely right. I have an emotional attachment to the music I play or listen to. My emotional reaction is the key. If I don't have an emotional reaction to the music then it feels a bit pointless. So the emotion generated (of whatever kind) is the guide. I have an old Ampeg V4b bass amp. I have a better bass amp too which has a better low end response, doesn't distort as much , is more even across the spectrum so comes through nicely in a mix. But I still prefer playing through the V4b. It feels good. It seems to react better to me. I feel more expressive playing through it. That means I play better, enjoy myself more, contribute more to the band vibe. All of that means the audience probably enjoy it more because there is a better feeling on stage. So, yes, I have an emotional attachment to that amp and that approach. That's why I prefer it modelling and emulation type software that I have tried. As time goes there may be software which feels better to play through. I look forward to it.
Quote:
The truth is neither my audience nor your audience comes away saying "their drums sound is so consistent night after night" nor "they play with such energy and compassion". They either connect and identify with your performance or they don't...and that has less to do with your equipment and more to do with the professionalism, authenticity and novelty of your presentation.
Totally agree.
Quote:
In all likelihood, in the vast majority of cases audiences can't really distinguish between your band and 2,000 others they could be watching...unless you're SIGNIFICANTLY different.
Totally agree.
Quote:
Generally speaking that's because the musicians onstage are more self-absorbed with what THEY want than what might catch the audience's attention as "something fresh and different".
TOTALLY agree.
Quote:
Live music is ultimately a business, with an extraordinarily high failure rate. The tools we use (the equipment) is really not a major point in that success and failure...although we'd like to believe it is. Planning, preparation, creativity, passion, and DISCIPLINE are the major factors that really determine the longevity and success of a band just as they are in any business. The lack of such things is a major reason why the live music environment is so dismal today as compared to 40 years ago when the vast majority of musicians SOLE source of income came from playing 6 nights a week in thousands of clubs across the nation. In that environment you were either a professional, or you weren't booked. Nowdays you're lucky to be booked twice a week...so it takes MUCH longer to mature professionally.
Agree with all of that. I just find that the creativity and passion come out more easily with gear that feels good to play with or through. If that's the case with an ekit then great. I have never heard a drummer say loves how an ekit feels MORE than how an acoustic kit feels. And that matters.
Old 10th November 2013
  #176
Gear Addict
 
shreddinator's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Yard View Post
I have never heard a drummer say loves how an ekit feels MORE than how an acoustic kit feels. And that matters.
I have never heard a keyboard player say how he likes the feel and sound of a digital piano over the feel of a Yamaha C7 grand piano either but how many times do you see a C7 hanging out the back of the band's van? I think of a hi end e-kit with great samples/amplification verse a nice acoustic kit on a simular scale as a digital piano verse a real piano. The biggest problem with e-kits is the money you have to pay to have the best.
Old 10th November 2013
  #177
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
I have never heard a keyboard player say how he likes the feel and sound of a digital piano over the feel of a Yamaha C7 grand piano either but how many times do you see a C7 hanging out the back of the band's van?
very poor analogy - let's see why

Quote:
I think of a hi end e-kit with great samples/amplification verse a nice acoustic kit on a simular scale as a digital piano verse a real piano.
typical drum set weighs about 100-150 lbs

electric drum set weight = the Roland is about 60 lbs - plus even if you go into the PA, you will need an amp for yourself which you did not need before - you could easily add another 50 lbs

Even disregarding the amp, at BEST that is a 2:1 ratio in "weight savings", well worth the extra lifting for me to be playing on a real instrument!

now let us consider the piano vs digital piano:

grand piano = 1000 lbs and up
digital stage piano = 60 lbs
that's 16 times heavier

One person can move a real drumset and one person can move an e-kit. And one person can move a digital keyboard, but one person can not move a grand piano.

Digital pianos sound more or less like a piano coming out of a speaker, and digital drums sound more or less like drums coming out of a speaker, BUT digital cymbals suck and do not sound anything like real cymbals, speaker or no speaker.

Digital pianos have nothing that corresponds to the Pure Suckage that digital cymbals have. There is in both, the 'once removed' quality of the samples, but not the 'twice removed' quality that you get with e-cymbals.

Quote:
The biggest problem with e-kits is the money you have to pay to have the best.
And once again, digital pianos are one tenth the price of their acoustic counterparts. So bad analogy. Not only are E-kits more expensive than acoustic drums, but the laptop and software you have to bring to the gig to use your fancy libraries probably costs more than the set of mics you would need for your real drums - assuming the House did not already have mics!


Quote:
If you haven't tried this then any opinion that you offer on e-drums is uneducated but you get plenty of that on this site. ....if you have never used the best do you even have a clue.
I have tried these and I still don't like them. This is called taste and opinion. Another thing we get "plenty of" on this site is people who seem to think that the only possible way someone could have different taste from them is if the other person simply was not "exposed" to the 'good stuff'.

I prefer Vanilla to Chocolate, but I don't go around saying that if "if only" Chocolate lovers would become "educated" about the 'top of the line Vanilla' they would change their minds.
Old 11th November 2013
  #178
Gear Addict
 
shreddinator's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
very poor analogy - let's see why



typical drum set weighs about 100-150 lbs

electric drum set weight = the Roland is about 60 lbs - plus even if you go into the PA, you will need an amp for yourself which you did not need before - you could easily add another 50 lbs

Even disregarding the amp, at BEST that is a 2:1 ratio in "weight savings", well worth the extra lifting for me to be playing on a real instrument!

now let us consider the piano vs digital piano:

grand piano = 1000 lbs and up
digital stage piano = 60 lbs
that's 16 times heavier

One person can move a real drumset and one person can move an e-kit. And one person can move a digital keyboard, but one person can not move a grand piano.

Digital pianos sound more or less like a piano coming out of a speaker, and digital drums sound more or less like drums coming out of a speaker, BUT digital cymbals suck and do not sound anything like real cymbals, speaker or no speaker.

Digital pianos have nothing that corresponds to the Pure Suckage that digital cymbals have. There is in both, the 'once removed' quality of the samples, but not the 'twice removed' quality that you get with e-cymbals.



And once again, digital pianos are one tenth the price of their acoustic counterparts. So bad analogy. Not only are E-kits more expensive than acoustic drums, but the laptop and software you have to bring to the gig to use your fancy libraries probably costs more than the set of mics you would need for your real drums - assuming the House did not already have mics!




I have tried these and I still don't like them. This is called taste and opinion. Another thing we get "plenty of" on this site is people who seem to think that the only possible way someone could have different taste from them is if the other person simply was not "exposed" to the 'good stuff'.

I prefer Vanilla to Chocolate, but I don't go around saying that if "if only" Chocolate lovers would become "educated" about the 'top of the line Vanilla' they would change their minds.
Go back in the thread, check out the photos of both my kits, see that I have both a Yamaha hi- end acoustic and e-kit, then you can see I am not a "drumist" like you. I love them both. You pulled apart my post, over analyzed it, made my generalization into something way more specific that I stated. You need to go and read all your own posts. If anyone ever enjoyed their own brand of chocolate more than you I would be surprised. I like vanilla and chocolate and have shown my equipment to prove this. Once again, I know your chiming in without following the whole thread may get in the way of your high post count attack strategy but it is I that think there is more than one way of doing things and you by your own admission who is biased toward one way of doing things and therefore you contradict yourself. You really need to read yourself and have a bit of a self reflect, please for your own sake.
Old 11th November 2013
  #179
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator View Post
I have never heard a keyboard player say how he likes the feel and sound of a digital piano over the feel of a Yamaha C7 grand piano either but how many times do you see a C7 hanging out the back of the band's van? I think of a hi end e-kit with great samples/amplification verse a nice acoustic kit on a simular scale as a digital piano verse a real piano. The biggest problem with e-kits is the money you have to pay to have the best.
I think the grand vs digital piano argument is a non-starter as hardly anyone has access to transport for a grand piano.

If you are a drummer with both set ups I would be interested to know how close you think they are in feel and enjoyability terms. Is one 10% more fun than the other? Or 50%? Do you ever have a bash on the e-kit just for fun, or would it always be the acoustic kit?
Old 11th November 2013
  #180
Gear Addict
 
shreddinator's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Yard View Post
I think the grand vs digital piano argument is a non-starter as hardly anyone has access to transport for a grand piano.

If you are a drummer with both set ups I would be interested to know how close you think they are in feel and enjoyability terms. Is one 10% more fun than the other? Or 50%? Do you ever have a bash on the e-kit just for fun, or would it always be the acoustic kit?
First of all there are more than a few styles of music in modern times. This is the most important thing to consider. Whether your a fan of a certain genre of music or not, acoustic drums do not always apply to certain genres. A hi-end e-kit with a high-end computer/samples can give you infinite possibilities. That's why I have both an e-kit and an acoustic. I will be the first one to admit that when people first come to my studio they gravitate towards my YMCAN acoustic. But when they have a bash on my tricked out Yamaha DTX950/Roland SPD-SX they quite often have more fun. I see it in their faces. So many choices for different sound palettes and that inspires them. But if the drummer is old school and detests modern music genres they roll up their noses and walk right past it. This also tells me a lot about them as a mucisian. Great musicians like to improvise and improvisation comes in all shapes and sizes. When a good drummer comes in and gets on my e-kit I know I made the right choice. By having so many options it broadens my options and overall enjoyment. Unlike joeq I will refrain from responding to your questions using unquantifiable ratios or percentages that are subjective at best.
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