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If Phase can be corrected in DAW, why does it matter?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #61
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skillz335 View Post
you do realize most places like bars that play music only run some form of mono through their PA system right.
No they usually run mono through their PA system left.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #62
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Imagine a 10 mic drum setup...When you nudge the snare track to bring it in phase with your kick mic...Now that is out of phase with your hi-hat mic so you nudge that, but now that is out of phase with the kick drum...and so on and so on.
Quote:
haha 3 hours of work till only end up right where you started
looks like you haven't ever been aligning mics/tracks:

you align tracks (preferably) against a mono overhead (and of course you're using rather tight patterns on all sources so you don't get much bleed/spill over). also, only large overlaps in frequency range are critical so it's a non-issue say between hats and kick. on those tracks with wider overlap, you nudge delay until you get max. output (which equals minimum phase offest).

if you wanna go full tilt, you can additionally use allpass filters and you'll get as close to frequency dependent phase alignment as you want!

makes a HUGE differnce...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #63
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skillz335's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
No they usually run mono through their PA system left.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #64
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skillz335's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
looks like you haven't ever been aligning mics/tracks:

you align tracks (preferably) against a mono overhead (and of course you're using rather tight patterns on all sources so you don't get much bleed/spill over). also, only large overlaps in frequency range are critical so it's a non-issue say between hats and kick. on those tracks with wider overlap, you nudge delay until you get max. output (which equals minimum phase offest).

if you wanna go full tilt, you can additionally use allpass filters and you'll get as close to frequency dependent phase alignment as you want!

makes a HUGE differnce...
thanks i was joking around and then actually learned something
Old 2 weeks ago
  #65
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skillz335 View Post
you do realize most places like bars that play music only run some form of mono through their PA system right.

Yes I do, In fact I would be very careful over phase issues if my music was being played in clubs or the like. Or if I were a pro (I did say that !!!)


Anyhow

Ninecows made some good points that made me realise that even my amateur music could be played by someone with a mono system

I do love pseudo stereo effects (ie haas ) that throw my sound outside of the speakers and often use these effects, and of course some phase issues are present.
If there are people listening to my music in mono, they're missing out


I do make good music (check me out) but I'm never going to be famous, so I'm happy to create beautiful out of phase music and anyone who likes phase issues is welcome
Old 1 week ago
  #66
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ORCHESTRION View Post
Yes I do, In fact I would be very careful over phase issues if my music was being played in clubs or the like. Or if I were a pro (I did say that !!!)


Anyhow

Ninecows made some good points that made me realise that even my amateur music could be played by someone with a mono system

I do love pseudo stereo effects (ie haas ) that throw my sound outside of the speakers and often use these effects, and of course some phase issues are present.
If there are people listening to my music in mono, they're missing out


I do make good music (check me out) but I'm never going to be famous, so I'm happy to create beautiful out of phase music and anyone who likes phase issues is welcome
Roger Waters - Amused to Death would be in that category. Highly unlikely to ever be played in a club and mixed in Qsound. Despite huge efforts with speaker placement in my youth and trying to sit in the sweet spot that qsound didn’t really work on me. It’s just too damn sensitive to phase or my ears are faulty ;-)

I still feel I’m missing out on that album, given how other people describe that miraculous Qsound. I do however really appreciate the songs -also in plain mono.

Again: width and fancy beyond stereo effect would/should only be the last few % of an albums selling point.
The first 80% is catchy tunes, lyrics, performance and arrangements. The next 15% is the basic mixing (eq, dynamics and level).
The last 5% comes from what money can buy: equipment used (eg what preamp was used on what mic), stereo image and all the other stuff we guys spend 90% of our time on debating here at gearslutz ;-)
Old 1 week ago
  #67
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skillz335's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ORCHESTRION View Post
Yes I do, In fact I would be very careful over phase issues if my music was being played in clubs or the like. Or if I were a pro (I did say that !!!)
even amateurs hand off their demos to DJ's, and if you were to go pro at imagine you'd have a mastering engineer to rebalance and address that issue. anyways, my whole point was you should have a demo that translates well on every Spectrum cuz you really never know who is listening or on what. especially since the new craze is all the JBL flip 4 esk
Old 1 week ago
  #68
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninecows View Post
Roger Waters - Amused to Death would be in that category. Highly unlikely to ever be played in a club and mixed in Qsound. Despite huge efforts with speaker placement in my youth and trying to sit in the sweet spot that qsound didn’t really work on me. It’s just too damn sensitive to phase or my ears are faulty ;-)

I still feel I’m missing out on that album, given how other people describe that miraculous Qsound. I do however really appreciate the songs -also in plain mono.

Again: width and fancy beyond stereo effect would/should only be the last few % of an albums selling point.
The first 80% is catchy tunes, lyrics, performance and arrangements. The next 15% is the basic mixing (eq, dynamics and level).
The last 5% comes from what money can buy: equipment used (eg what preamp was used on what mic), stereo image and all the other stuff we guys spend 90% of our time on debating here at gearslutz ;-)

Now don't get me started on Qsound

You must try different albums (many from the early 90's) as some are better, or more suited to your ears for this effect than others.

I remember before Qsound was a word the group Psychic TV in the early 80's were experimenting with holographic audio (haas effect I guess) with their album "Dreams less sweet" with many effects, monks chanting whilst circling around you, drums beating in the street outside your window and being buried alive with the stones raining down on top of your coffin ,,,,,, All amazing at that time.

I never understood why 3D audio never caught on as much as films

I do concur with you about the music content, none of this has any importance if the music itself is weak

Try Qsound again with headphones and of course no distractions
Old 1 week ago
  #69
Gear Addict
 
prismtheory's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murrfk View Post
I read repeatedly the problem that exists when trying to record with two microphones at the same time and the phase issues that can occur if the mics were not placed properly. This seemed to be a pretty important issue and there are a lot of posts on it. As I did not have the experience to deal with it properly, I avoided recording with more than one Mic at a time.

Then I saw a video where someone had Phase issues, and simply inverted or nudge aligned the out of phase traces in their DAW and fixed it. That seemed pretty simple.

I think I am missing something. What?
Because you can't change what was recorded in both microphones by nudging around 1s and 0s in the computer.
Old 1 week ago
  #70
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by prismtheory View Post
Because you can't change what was recorded in both microphones by nudging around 1s and 0s in the computer.
I think that to some extent you can. By nudging one of the tracks back and forth relative to the other track, you can change the phase relationship between the two if the relative distance to the source is the only thing that’s wrong with mics placement.
So basically the difference in time on when the direct sound waves will hit the two mics. What you cannot change is the effect of reflections and how the mics are angled. I guess some of that can be manipulated by eq and compression, but it’s better to get mic placement right from the start.
Old 1 week ago
  #71
Gear Addict
 
prismtheory's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninecows View Post
I think that to some extent you can. By nudging one of the tracks back and forth relative to the other track, you can change the phase relationship between the two if the relative distance to the source is the only thing that’s wrong with mics placement.
So basically the difference in time on when the direct sound waves will hit the two mics. What you cannot change is the effect of reflections and how the mics are angled. I guess some of that can be manipulated by eq and compression, but it’s better to get mic placement right from the start.

That's essentially what I'm saying. If sound is moving ~1ft per millisecond then theoretically you can change the distant relationship between multi-mic'd source.

However, when you move the mics, regardless of angle or distance, the EQ changes, more of the room gets introduced, whatever the case. This is another aspect of phase to consider just as much.

I was essentially trying to make the same point: Getting it right at the source is the only tried and true way to get it right. Moving things around, sure it might work, maybe even often, but when it doesn't you're basically taking a gamble and accepting a compromise.
Old 1 week ago
  #72
Lives for gear
 

I think as usual, those with more knowledge are overwhelming the OP with true but unneeded information.

Don't worry about frequencies right now. just think about time.

Sound does not travel instantly. It moves at a specific speed, just like light. (The speed can vary but that is not important right now)

Therefore, If you have a guitar and one mic 5 inches away and another mic 10 inches away the sound will hit the mics at different times. Therefore the wave form will be out of time.

Once you can grasp that, all the different info about frequency and speed of sound theory can be added to that. But the basics of it is time.

This is why yes you can deal with polarity, but also phase in your DAW, because you could simply time align everything by moving tracks around on your timeline. But it would be a lot of work. Sometimes you have no choice but to do it that way, but you are far better off just taking the time to record it properly.
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