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Phase issues with paralell saturation
Old 1 week ago
  #1
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Phase issues with paralell saturation

Hey guys

I can't seem to find ANY information on this issue anywhere online. I'm using Cubase 5 and there's a large amount of my pluggins (mainly saturation) that when I run them as a send in paralell to a mono track they introduce this weird phasey sound thats impossible to treat with a phase pluggin. Most of my compressors work absolutely fine in parallel its only some of my other ones, these include soundtoys Decapitator and Fabfilter Saturn. Cubase has automatic delay compensation so it can't be that.... help!
Old 1 week ago
  #2
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If it’s a mono track - maybe that’s the problem? If some FX’s give some kind of Hall* (correct me if I’m wrong cuz im not sure the name) effect on sound to make it more stereo, which usually results as a shifting one channel in time forward in relation to the other slightly , then monoing these can make such weird sounding stuff due the phase cancellation. Try to send only one channel of processed sound (not panned as % difference but as a signal ratio and then make it mono) and you will see if that helps. If not, it’s probably something with daw going in (maybe wrongly selected delay comp time?)

Best
-Doc
Old 1 week ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karlamacintyre95 View Post
Hey guys

I can't seem to find ANY information on this issue anywhere online. I'm using Cubase 5 and there's a large amount of my pluggins (mainly saturation) that when I run them as a send in paralell to a mono track they introduce this weird phasey sound thats impossible to treat with a phase pluggin. Most of my compressors work absolutely fine in parallel its only some of my other ones, these include soundtoys Decapitator and Fabfilter Saturn. Cubase has automatic delay compensation so it can't be that.... help!
First question is why route this in parallel at all? (In other words it would seem to open up you up to any any faults re; processing errors.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
Is the DAW`s latency compensation activated?
Old 1 week ago
  #5
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The plugin you're sending to might not have a flat phase response, in which case there's nothing you can really do to overcome this. If you wanted to check it you could use DDMF Plugindoctor
Old 1 week ago
  #6
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Are you using compression too? Anything time based can produce phase issues. Even compressors have attack and decay times. There are stereo comps that can use a single channel's settings to trigger identical changes in both channels. They are usually used to produce stereo stability however.

Personally It makes no sense to me why you'd combine a stereo track to mono like that. If you had to do it you'd be much better off applying the effects to the two separate tracks first then simply bouncing the two tracks together. But even that doesn't make sense. Its not like you're hard up for tracks recording digital

In the end I suggest you take the method you're using and stick it in the Fail bin and try a different approach.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean its going to have good results. I can think of tons of things I can do to produce crappy audio quality. many I may have stumbled upon accidentally or through curiosity. After awhile that experience guides you to not even bothering to try some things because common sense tells you its only going to waste time. I try my best to avoid those train wreaks by not ding stupid stuff.

In this case, if you take two channels and set the pans centered and it sounds like crap, I don't need to go any farther. If my tracks aren't mono compatible, I don't want them. I'm far better off using one mono track then trying co combine to tracks out of phase.
Old 1 week ago
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrgkmc View Post
Are you using compression too? Anything time based can produce phase issues. Even compressors have attack and decay times. There are stereo comps that can use a single channel's settings to trigger identical changes in both channels. They are usually used to produce stereo stability however.

Personally It makes no sense to me why you'd combine a stereo track to mono like that. If you had to do it you'd be much better off applying the effects to the two separate tracks first then simply bouncing the two tracks together. But even that doesn't make sense. Its not like you're hard up for tracks recording digital

In the end I suggest you take the method you're using and stick it in the Fail bin and try a different approach.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean its going to have good results. I can think of tons of things I can do to produce crappy audio quality. many I may have stumbled upon accidentally or through curiosity. After awhile that experience guides you to not even bothering to try some things because common sense tells you its only going to waste time. I try my best to avoid those train wreaks by not ding stupid stuff.

In this case, if you take two channels and set the pans centered and it sounds like crap, I don't need to go any farther. If my tracks aren't mono compatible, I don't want them. I'm far better off using one mono track then trying co combine to tracks out of phase.
Jesus dude, Who said anything about stereo?! I've got a mono track (say a kick) and I want to send that track to an FX track with some distortion on it so I can then blend it in with my original kick, this is so I can moderate the actual level of the distortion and not soak my original kick in it. very common practice - Hence why I'm pissed off my software doesn't seem to support it.
Old 1 week ago
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
First question is why route this in parallel at all? (In other words it would seem to open up you up to any any faults re; processing errors.
So that I can moderate the saturation with the original staying completely clean. I don't want to completely soak say a kick drum in distortion on an insert so I do it in paralell. VERY COMMON PRACTICE.
Old 1 week ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustgroove View Post
The plugin you're sending to might not have a flat phase response, in which case there's nothing you can really do to overcome this. If you wanted to check it you could use DDMF Plugindoctor
I've seen multiple videos where mix tutors have paired one of my disortion plugins as a send to a mono track and blended it to taste and it sounds absolutely fine. Cubase has automatic delay compensation that is always on.
Old 1 week ago
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocSlow View Post
If it’s a mono track - maybe that’s the problem? If some FX’s give some kind of Hall* (correct me if I’m wrong cuz im not sure the name) effect on sound to make it more stereo, which usually results as a shifting one channel in time forward in relation to the other slightly , then monoing these can make such weird sounding stuff due the phase cancellation. Try to send only one channel of processed sound (not panned as % difference but as a signal ratio and then make it mono) and you will see if that helps. If not, it’s probably something with daw going in (maybe wrongly selected delay comp time?)

Best
-Doc
Wow dude, that was the most sensible answer, you've actually read what I posted and replied without any cock waving at all, thankyou sir, I will indeed try that
Old 1 week ago
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlamacintyre95 View Post
I've seen multiple videos where mix tutors have paired one of my disortion plugins as a send to a mono track and blended it to taste and it sounds absolutely fine. Cubase has automatic delay compensation that is always on.
That doesn't mean the delay compensation does what it's supposed to do. I'm using Cubase for many years now and there have been issues repeatedly. That said, there have been issues in other DAWs, too. Often times it's a plugin which isn't reporting its latency correctly to the host. This could also happen with the plugin being in bypass. Another thing to bear in mind is that indeed many distortion and saturation plugins will introduce certain phase shifts which regular delay compensation won't detect. I recommend downloading a demo of Sound Radix' Auto Align, send from the kick channel after processing and receive on your parallel channel after processing. This will most certainly correct the issues and you can investigate how it's supposed to sound. Since Auto Align tells you what it does (how many samples/ms it delays and if it also flips the phase) you could replicate that by using the delay adjuster and phase button in the Cubase mixer if you don't want to buy Auto Align later. By the way, it's a great plugin to have around for drums and multimiced recordings or for adjusting a bass DI and amp.

EDIT: I just saw in your other thread on the same subject you're using Cubase 5. Definitely upgrade that. Delay compensation has come a long way in recent years, pretty likely that Cubase 5 is part of the problem.
Old 1 week ago
  #12
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I've had this issue and used a delay plugin to shift the tracks back into phase.
The other solution I've found is to print the effect and manually shift the audio so the dry and processed tracks match up. It's a pain but it helps.
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