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Calibrating monitors/interface AND mixer????
Old 3rd October 2019
  #1
Calibrating monitors/interface AND mixer????

Haven't found any definitive answer for this so here ya go GS..

I always have my monitors set using Blue Sky's calibration method, hitting 79db instead of 83/85 that is WAY too loud in this tiny room... For ages Ive just been Mac->MOTU balanced interfaced outputs->monitors. Easy peasy, following Blue Sky's instructions is straight forward and gets you right where you need to go..

Now the wrench. Just added an old Soundcraft to my setup. Now it goes instruments+mics+whatever+MOTU main outputs->Mixer->Monitors.

What I need to know is, how should I be setting the level on the MOTU going into the mixer when I do this????? If I do this the 'normal' way and crank the channels gain until its nice and yellow and occasionally peaking in the red, thats all fine and dandy. The -20db test files are LOUD obviously, but when Im all done and everything is playing nicely, I throw on iTunes and all the meters pinned to red. The whole -20 thing is throwing me off and Im always tempted to grab gain knobs and this and that and screw the whole thing up. If I stick with the unity marker on the channels gain, the 1khz -20db Sine Wav they give you sits perfectly at the middle "Ref +4dub" spot on the Soundcraft meters. Its basically the first yellow lamp in the meter. Of course when I do this, all of my synths are WAY off and too loud, etc..

Anybody got a sure fire 'This will keep things neat' method?? Or is it just me not realizing 'No you REALLY have to pull those faders way down on the synth channels until they're in the computer'?
Old 3rd October 2019
  #2
Quote:
Calibrating monitors/interface AND mixer????
for monitoring, Keep your interface and mixer at unity with each other and control the volume with your monitors.

That said, There are no right or wrong methods. Just get a comfortable listening/monitoring level that fits you and the room by using the volume of your monitors and keep your other things at unity.

For me, i keep my main outs that fed my studio monitors at 0dB and i have a remote control that controls the volume of my near-fields monitors and i have my power amp volume for my 3 way speakers. This works for me. what works for you 'can' be different
Old 4th October 2019
  #3
Yeah that's the thing is Im getting no '0db' that seems to be consistent hehe. Where does 0db on the mixer really live? Is it all the way up? Is it when you first hit the yellow? Right at the top of the yellow?? Ive got it situated and comfortable now, I just wanted to make sure Im doing it right and not skipping something heh.

Going by the Blue Sky steps.. Had Logic's master turned all the way up to 0db, set the Main fader on the mixer to 0, and from there my overall level is controlled with the Monitor/Phones pot in the master section (my Tannoy's have REALLY touchy pots so those are set and forget for me). I have no idea the range on this thing so I set the Monitor level for 5 with the Main fader at 0 (Im assuming thats 0db??), that was my 79db per speaker goal. Now the MOTU's main outputs into channels 15/16 on the Soundcraft and routed to the Main bus. I played the 1khz -20db sine wave and set the electrical level per their instructions. When I got to the MOTU part, I PFL's each channel and adjusted the signal until it was level right below the red line, so whatever that 0db coming from the MOTU, is my reference going into the Master. Of course this was all fine and dandy, the mixer when its all set fills up the yellow nicely and occasionally peaks in the bottom of the red. Close out Logic, open up iTunes, BOOOOM the thing has the meters pegged! I know Im mixing at 20db lower (or 12/14 whatever I decide to finally use) but man is THAT much of a difference??? And then when I start to actually play a track in my DAW along with my synths and stuff connected to the mixer, I have to go grab the channel gain and adjust so it makes me wonder, am I throwing off the calibrated level I set by doing that or does the Main bus stay where it should be and if it hits that peak will be at 79db??

Another thing that throws me off is the master fader labelling. The Main fader goes from 0 down to zilch.. The 4 groups go from +10 down. Is that db? Is the 0 on both sets the same 0 or is the groups lower so its got a bit more headroom for that extra 10 you can push the fader up? Should be the Main fader be at -10, which is what the manual shows as the starting spot in their example picture of the 'typical starter setup'? I should probably go email Soundcraft but I doubt Ill get a very technical answer from a support rep but who knows haha. I actually got the original manual with it but I don't think it mentioned this stuff and Ive looked through it tons of times (I better go check again)..
Old 4th October 2019
  #4
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BT64's Avatar
0 dBfs (digital) = max.
-18dBfs would be something like 0 VU.
Old 4th October 2019
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by BT64 View Post
0 dBfs (digital) = max.
-18dBfs would be something like 0 VU.
Yeah got that part, its not the digital end that's the issue. The MOTU is happily right in the middle of its meters when I playback the Blue Sky -20dbFS sine tone. I have it now going into one of the stereo channels instead of a regular pair and without having to even adjust the input level it sits right in the middle at the +4dBu reference mark on the Soundcraft meter so thats pretty much perfect right there.

Whats throwing me off is, do I stick with THAT signal, or do I do what you would normally do with a mixer, and crank up the gain on the input and then check the monitors? That makes things even worse when I go back and say listen to a song in iTunes. That volume difference is ungodly loud.
Old 4th October 2019
  #6
Quote:
Whats throwing me off is, do I stick with THAT signal, or do I do what you would normally do with a mixer, and crank up the gain on the input and then check the monitors? That makes things even worse when I go back and say listen to a song in iTunes.
No one i know cranks up the input. Monitoring levels can be controlled with your monitors volume, just like a volume knob for a car stereo.
Old 4th October 2019
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
No one i know cranks up the input. Monitoring levels can be controlled with your monitors volume, just like a volume knob for a car stereo.
Ok that I get hehe. So basically, Im not looking to capture a hot input signal. Im just trying to set a reference for the top end Im not supposed to go near.

I actually just redid it all about 30 minutes ago. Ended up going a bit lower on the SPL anyways. A SOS article I was reading on it had a table for the level vs room size and eeek, this bedroom is only like 60 cubic feet over the very bottom <1500' setting haha. That was set to 74db so thats what I did this time..

What I did though was I didnt touch the gain at all. Since its going into the stereo channel now instead of 2 of the mic/line channels, the gain starts at 0, theres no - to unity and up setting like a regular channel. With it at 0, the 1khz sine at -20dbFS sits perfectly right where the yellow/green meet on the MOTU (its digital so I have to keep in mind that red is BAD on it) and the Soundcraft input meter lines up right with the MOTUs meters and hits the middle point, which is marked "+4dbU reference" right next to it. So Im assuming Im supposed to use that. The manual just tells you how to set it up for a live or recording situation, not critical monitoring.

Worked out nice and fine, I think it might just be that 20db difference when I go back and listen to a record in iTunes really thats throwing me off. Not to mention one of the albums Ive been listening to a lot lately isn't the greatest example. I just noticed this afternoon that with iTunes all the way up, its pegs the red on the MOTU itself and those are the aacs ripped straight from my cd haha. Im not sure of the actual headroom the MOTU has above the red point so I just stay away from it. I know the Soundcraft has another 24db or so but still, I'll just play it safe hehe, this is supposed to be -20db lower anyways.

Im leaving it set how I have it. The monitors at full blast out of Logic/MPC running the pink noise will hit 74db each, I got each one almost perfect bouncing within like .1 heh. I just have to remember, commercial crap is waaaaaaaaay louder. I have the channels level meter marked so I know now, when its music time put it back here and leave the master fader at 0 and the monitor level at 5. Theres my -20dbFS at 0db scale. I can drop the monitor level if I need to get all "K-14" on it theres my actual SPL control. When its time to listen to iTunes or watch a movie or something, then I turn down whatever on the Mac if its blasting out of the MOTU itself, and just adjust the channels level itself to keep it inline and comfortable.
Old 4th October 2019
  #8
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BT64's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monotremata View Post
That volume difference is ungodly loud.
About 20dB louder?

Calibrating is just to get your monitors (and maybe sub) balanced.
After that you can use the volume knob.
Old 5th October 2019
  #9
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
There’s a thread that deals with this issue specifically written many moons ago. It’s what was said above. -18dbfs is equivalent to 0VU when the reference is +4dBu or 1.228v RMS. If all that confused you don’t worry, it’s confusing. What Soundcraft are you using? Have you calibrated the VU meters if it has them? Are you monitoring off the console main outputs or the monitor section? Answer these questions and then I’ll go further according to your answers.
Old 5th October 2019
  #10
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GYMusic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
No one i know cranks up the input. Monitoring levels can be controlled with your monitors volume, just like a volume knob for a car stereo.
Exactly. When you find your favorite listening level (79dB in your case), mark that spot on your Soundcraft with a little piece of tape.
Old 5th October 2019
  #11
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Here’s the thread. Don’t get caught up in the title.

The Reason Most ITB mixes don’t Sound as good as Analog mixes (restored)
Old 6th October 2019
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin View Post
There’s a thread that deals with this issue specifically written many moons ago. It’s what was said above. -18dbfs is equivalent to 0VU when the reference is +4dBu or 1.228v RMS. If all that confused you don’t worry, it’s confusing. What Soundcraft are you using? Have you calibrated the VU meters if it has them? Are you monitoring off the console main outputs or the monitor section? Answer these questions and then I’ll go further according to your answers.
Rad, that thread you posted will be my Sunday homework hehe. Lemme get to the details part real quick though. Its an old 16 channel LX7. Outside of running that Blue Sky -20dbFS sine wave through them no calibration of any kind as far as I know. Just bought it about 3 weeks or so ago, the guy used it for PA work at his church (Im guessing the band too cause its a 16 channel??). Ive got the Monitor outs going into my Tannoys, not the "Mix" out XLRs. Im still fuzzy on which one of those Im supposed to use as well, but you know monitor out->monitors seemed logical hehe. Thats how the manual shows it in their weird multi-track setup as well. Im not sure I have everything optimally setup in the first place but its working for now. Lemme see if I can do a quick breakdown of what's going to what..

In:
Channels 1-8=synths+sampler
Channels 9-16=effects returns/utility channels
Stereo Channel 1=MOTU Main output
Out:
Direct Outs 1-8=MOTU analog ins 1-8
Monitor Out=Monitors
Aux 1/2->Emu Inputs L/R (Anything can be sent and sampled from the board)
Aux 3-6 effects sends

The group outs are all connected to 4 channels on my Behringer ADA8200 thats connected to the MOTUs ADAT. Figured with the rack effects, gotta record those other 8 channels somehow.

My instrument monitoring situation is kinda tricky now too. The LX7 direct outs come out after the EQ and you can switch them to pre/post fader as well. But, the MOTU has direct monitoring and is coming back in anyways. Im not sure if I should listen to my gear through the mixer's bus and mute the MOTUs monitoring, or vice versa. I started playing around with using the MOTUs monitoring and controlling levels and whatnot with the mixer, but it was different enough it threw me off.
Old 6th October 2019
  #13
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
So here’s the poop. Monitoring off the monitor outputs is exactly what you want to do. That leaves the main outputs to feed back into your project if you want to mix OTB. Also, you won’t be able to drive the meters to reference and not have your ears bleed if you use the main outs for monitoring.

Now, you need to make sure your meters on the console are calibrated correctly. I looked up the manual and the meters are LED’s bar graph style meters. If you look at the mains you’ll see it says 0VU with a +4 dBu next to it. Or at least that’s what the manual shows. You need to feed a 1k hz tone into a channel on the console. Then set the PFL around 0VU. Then bring the master up until the meters read 0VU. Now get out your multimeter and check the mains output both left and right. Put your meter in RMS and put one probe on the 2 pin and the other on the 3 pin. It should read 1.228v if your super anal or 1.23v if you round up. You need to do this for the groups also.

Why this matters.

The thread explains it, but the short is, analog gear is designed to work at this reference level and when working at this level you get the best signal to noise ratio. So you want to feed the console channels from the DAC’s at -18 to -20dBfs. That’s the equivalent of +4dBu and what your console expects. Now when you gain stage your console you will be working with the correct levels. What you’ll find is your console will have sweet spots. When you set the PFL use your ears. On my Soundcraft 400b its magically right around 0VU/+4dBu. Go figure. Same for the master. So when your mixing to a group or the entire mix to the master, your meters should be averaging around 0VU to +1 +2 VU. So if your meters are not accurate, it becomes a guessing game.

No, since your monitoring off the monitor outputs, you can drive the masters to 0VU and then use the monitor volume to adjust to the preferred SPL at the listening position you prefer to mix at. Pull up a professionally recorded mix you love, gain stage through the input channels correctly, pull the faders down to -20 or so, put the master at 0 (I’m talking about the hash marks next to the actual physical fader you slide, not the meters) which is unity gain and then bring up the channel faders from -20 until the mains meters are averaging around 0VU. They can be peaking well above that, don’t worry, your in the analog world now and left the digital matrix (movie reference there) and your ok unless your clipping. Clipping is still bad but it’s way the f$$& up there. It’s not 0VU.

If your following me to this point then the light build should be going off and you should know this is where you check your SPL at the listening position, adjust your monitor volume, and mark it. Either mentally or physically.

I know if my meters are averaging around 0, +1 to +2 and my monitor pot is set to around 4, which is roughly 11 o’clock, that the SPL at the listening position will be roughly 88db, C weighted set to slow.

Now your calibrated and the guessing is over. The only thing that can change this is the meters going out of calibration, adjusting the gain on active monitors, or the gain on a preamp to passive speakers.

That’s a lot of info I just dumped on you. Start sorting through it and ask questions.

It looks like from your setup you may be looping the console back ITB. That’s completely legit. The meters still need to be calibrated. The sweet spots will still be what they are. Whether your looping or mixing OTB, you can now place hardware on the inserts of the channels and do OTB processing. Compression, EQ, Effects, etc.... The sky is the limit.
Old 6th October 2019
  #14
Ahhhh ok so that makes sense.. I had a bunch of this exact thing going through my head last night after I replied.. So if I got this right, Im supposed to be shooting for everything playing nicely together at the 0VU mark then? At this point Im not mixing back through the console or anything yet, where my synths are concerned, its acting as a fancy front end for the line inputs. Once that instrument is finally recorded in a track its going to come back as part of the mix from the interface so that part is all good. Im stuck in that mindset of 'green is weak, yellow is great, red is back' so I keep thinking my mixes should be happily bouncing around somewhere between the yellow and red section but I gotta keep it lower.

Ill have to dig out out my meter today and check the outputs. So aside from the actual voltage reading, with that Blue Sky -20dbFS sine wave and everything at unity gain, the meter rises up perfectly to that 0VU/+4db mark so we're on the right path. So it sounds like when Im monitoring my synths along with the computer playback, I just have to get used to those faders not living at the unity mark and adjusting them down as far as I would when Im say mixing in the box hehe. When I actually record them into the computer, then I can gain stage and crank stuff to get it in, and go back to "playback" levels afterward.

A big part of what's throwing me off is Ive never used a mixer in this capacity before. The last time one was in my rig it was my 14 channel Mackie back in 2001/2002, and it WAS my front end because I was still using an RME card that only had stereo analog I/O so everything pretty much had to go through that, when I recorded it, it was pretty much my mix from the Mackie going in on 2 channels haha. The only thing Ive used my Behringer Eurodesk for all these years was as some extra preamps (using the inserts as direct outs) so I didnt have to worry about using the busses or anything like that at all.

Cool cool cool, this weekend has been progress all around for a bunch of crap at our house haha. Once all the rest of these bums are awake Ill fire something up and get it all sorted.. I wanna see what this is gonna be like with my faders pulled way down for the synths running alongside the computer hehe. One of these days, Ill be replacing my MPC Software with the MPC Live so all of my gear at that point will pretty much be going into the mixer and the Mac will just be my tape deck at that point. Then I can figure it out all over again hah. That should make it easier to get all the gear to actually gel.
Old 6th October 2019
  #15
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
When you set your levels coming from the DAW to the mixer, set them to peak at -18 to -20dBfs. That’s the equivalent of of +4 in the analog world of dBu. Each input channel on the console has an input stage. The pot at the top of the input module (labeled SENS) controls how hot the signal from the DAW enters the module. You check the level of this input my pressing the PFL (pre fader level) at the bottom of the module and then the master meters will read that incoming level. There are two schools of thought on how to set this level. One is push the level to 0VU and then adjust the fader accordingly in the mix. The second is to place the fader 5 to 10 dB below 0 (unity gain) and bring up the input to fit in the mix. I prefer the first. I get a nice hot level at the input stage (on my 400b its a sonically pleasing sweet spot) across all the elements of the mix. Then I bring up the faders and do a rough mix. This will expose which element is the weakest link and requires the most gain. I then set that element around 0 (unity gain) and then mix around that element. Unity gain at the faders will provide the best signal to noise your console can give you. A good mix (speaking of levels) is when all the faders are around unity gain (+5 to -5) including the master and nothing is clipping. You may have to adjust the input stage to get the results you need. The more mixes you do, the better you’ll get.
Old 6th October 2019
  #16
Ok I gotcha. So I just need to adjust to having that static level set and my goal is to stay as close to that as possible. Im just stuck in that 'race until the meter gets red' but my baseline is now a digital reference signal so, those faders on the mixer are going to look like they do in one of my DAW projects (I start and shoot for the drum kit to hit -12 and mix around that). Logic and the MPC's OVU might be the top of its meter, but I have to remember that that signal at the top is -20 so that means I need to keep it at the +4 marker on the mixer to match it! When Im not playing in the DAW and listening to iTunes, I just have to turn that fader in iTunes itself way down since my recording stuff is now working at -20 below. When I go back and forth after a Logic/MPC session, with the mixer set for that whole -20=0VU, iTunes will go all the way up and even my MOTU hits red on some more modern albums, so those are probably hitting very very close to actual 0db digitally I take it, and they are right at the top of the range, which is what Im trying to avoid anyways hah.

Luckily there wont be any mixing involved for now. This is just to get my stuff into the MOTU (it was so much easier when it was just direct in haha), and give me the ability to use rack effects and whatnot AND feed the sampler and all that. I am REALLY digging the sound of the LX7 though, Ive only had 'clean' mixers like the Mackie and the Eurodesk. This thing sounds soooo much different when you give it like a low mid boost or something compared to those two I had, I love the 'musical' eq thing. Space was the reason I got the 16 in the first place. I didnt even know a 16 existed, I see the 24s all the time for about the same price I paid for this actually but its just too big right now. Eventually when the hardware MPC gets here, everything is pretty going to be put together in the mixer, and will THEN go into the computer just like if I was back working with a multitrack tape deck or something. Until then, that part of it is still based in the Mac because Im tied to the DAW for now. Once that comes along (I basically just have to find a job hehe) then Im probably going to see if I can make a 24 fit. Those have 16 channels on the left side, and each one has a direct out hehe. I can keep everything in the MPC/MIDI realm until its ready and either multitrack a mix or do a full 16 channel into stereo thing. But yeah thats down the line, I still have a few rack effects to pick up before that will all work outside of the box. My Lexicon is pretty awesome for reverb but still want another verb box and probably going all lo-fi and doing the SPX-990+SE-50/70 route.. Looking out for a Roland SDE too for dedicated delays. I definitely need an Akai Headrush pedal too.. I use the plugin in the MPC religiously for those fat rolling dub delays, I NEED one of those for the mixer so I can do it in real time and route it back to itself for the feedback stuff and all that.
Old 6th October 2019
  #17
Okay so far so good hah. I double checked the 1khz sine again, was right at 0VU, check. This means -20 on my master fader in my DAW. Check. Fired up iTunes, put on the last album by the Breeders, a fat full range rock record. Holy crap. In order to get iTunes down to 0VU I have to turn it down too halfway! Ok, thats the kinda headroom Im dealing with. Check.

Pulled up the song Im working on at the moment in the MPC Software and checked it out. My master was peaking about -9, so I had to make adjustments across all the faders, but now its fairly steady at -20 with what Im assuming are +1-2 peaks (the MPCs meters kinda suck). This matches what I see on the mixer. This particular project isn't really finished being written yet so I still have two tracks playing via MIDI from my sampler (channels 1-2 on the mixer) and my Microbrute is doing mono bass duties on channel 5. I have their PFL levels set nice and juicy, but Ive got the faders in check so theyre blending in and the whole mix is staying where it should be. The meters on the Soundcraft are solid up to -6db, and bouncing up to 0VU with the drums. Occasional peaks are making it blip once in awhile at +2 when the fat Reese's come in later. I can deal with this now I think hahaha. The monitor level is a little above 3 right now (the monitor level on 5 at 0VU is 74db on each side with bw limited pink noise now) and I can hear everything nice and even and comfortable like I like, and the misses and the roomie haven't had a single complaint watching tv in the room next to me hah. Lets see what happens when I get the JCM800 out of the closet now!

Thanks for all the guidance! I saved a couple of your posts and threw em in my 'notebook' for future reference hehe. This is gonna work out nice I think. Now I gotta figure out how to open this thing so I can blow it out.. Channels 9-16, the mute switches are flaky and cut in and out now and then, you gotta flick em around to knock some sense into em. It had been sitting for awhile in its hardcase and was pretty dusty when I brought it home. Could use a good cleaning and a check up inside anyways. The other side is working great.
Old 7th October 2019
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monotremata View Post
My master was peaking about -9, so I had to make adjustments across all the faders, but now its fairly steady at -20 with what Im assuming are +1-2 peaks (the MPCs meters kinda suck).
Just since there was the above of yours plus a couple of other sentences by you and someone else that was less than clear:

When you calibrate to 0VU across your signal chain this isn't peak you should be aiming for but average. And it's for calibration.

When you're then actually mixing you have the headroom between that 0VU and whatever the device allows before distortion. In the digital domain it seems as if you have 20dB. In the analog domain you'd have to check your mixer specs.

But in any case what I'm getting at is that if you think you need to lower levels when mixing so that your output peaks at -20dBFS (i.e. 0VU analog on the board) then I think you're doing it wrong. If your music has an average of XdB, and the peaks are for example 10dB above that, then you actually have the range between 0VU and distortion to fit everything. That range should easily be 10dB (I'd be surprised if it wasn't).

So in other words if you see a VU meter "hovering on average" around 0VU but peaking in the red above that you should still be ok unless you actually hear distortion.
Old 7th October 2019
  #19
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Let me explain it this way. 1lb = 2.2kg. Same weight, different scale. -20dBfs = +4dBu. Analog gear was designed to work at +4dBu, so you need to feed the signal from your DAW to the analog world at around -20dBfs. Your DAW meters are peak meters rather than averages like VU’s, so yes, in theory you can feed the console a hotter peak level. Just remember, the console input stage has a sweet spot. A good rule of thumb is 80% of its total gain. Too low or too high and signal to noise goes south. His is about proper gain staging. It gets more interesting when you insert compressors, EQ’s and effects in the signal chain. Now you have to gain stage those as well. The thread I posted was written to help the engineers that grew up on analog gear convert to ITB mixes and how to properly gain stage ITB. But it’s applicable going both directions.

When I record to my DAW I go for -6dBfs peaks. Leaves me a little headroom, averages will be below that at -12 to -20 dBfs depending on what I’m recording and the artists dynamics.

Hope this helps.
Old 7th October 2019
  #20
Everything so far has been pretty easy to get around. Ive been working on this track all day just playing around with sounds in the sampler and whatnot, alongside the computers mixed output and the levels are somewhat sorted out now. At least I understand how to use it all better. Things were way different living inside the box, my time with mixers as the front end was very small in the overall picture, Ive been used to the interface as the main point of in and out. Walking through the posts above with the gear and test tones at hand made it easy to just sit back and look at the flow of the whole thing and soak it in and see it right. I just have to separate some concepts that became integrated using the MOTU as the command center. Now its another piece of the chain with something in between it and the monitors, but it should still be the digital reference since thats where the music ultimately will come from in the end. This is pretty neat actually. Playing the MPC Software while jamming with my MIDI gear, its not dead on but the faders have to be kept about where they would if I were mixing it inside the MPC. I get a little higher on the mixer, but the MPC marking isn't very detailed so I could be at the same spot heh. Nothing is blowing up anymore, nothing is set too low that all I hear is the computers output. When I find myself start cranking something thats a little low to me, I remember Im turned way down and turn up the monitor control and go 'Oh yeah there it is, it was perfect never mind'.

Just gotta adjust to the 'new' old way now! :D
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