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-6db rms but -6 lufs : how to decrease LUFS and keep the same rms
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Head
 

-6db rms but -6 lufs : how to decrease LUFS and keep the same rms

Hi !


at the mastering stage,

my tracks generallly have -18 db RMS and - 6DB peak . I then put a 2 bus compressor on it of -2 db. and a limiter that take out 6Db which gives me a -6.5 RMS but a -6 lufs as well . the rms is on point but I heard the ideal lufs is -13 for spotify etc ..

So How could I decrease the lufs without decreasing the rms ?

Also -6db on the limiter ia bit high right ? Am i not compressing enough in my mix ? ( I m not compressing while tracking and only apply 4db compression on average eon all my tracks ) would that be the reason ?



cheers guys.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
Quote:
So How could I decrease the lufs without decreasing the rms ?
?? Why does your RMS need to be steady, if you want to decrease your volume, decrease it. RMS measures volume. This doesn't make sense.
Quote:
Which gives me a -6.5 RMS but a -6 lufs as well . the rms is on point but I heard the ideal lufs is -13 for spotify etc .
Your RMS is not on point, its on FIRE!! -6.5RMS IS WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY TOO hot!!!!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
Gear Guru
 

LUFS/LKFS and RMS are all just measurements of a signal. If you change the signal you change the measurements (almost always). So you pick one measurement and you go with that. My bet is that LUFS/LKFS corresponds more closely to how we perceive loudness than RMS does.

So if you want to measure loudness using LUFS then do that and forget about RMS.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
?? Why does your RMS need to be steady, if you want to decrease your volume, decrease it. RMS measures volume. This doesn't make sense.

Your RMS is not on point, its on FIRE!! -6.5RMS IS WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY TOO hot!!!!



don't most of the pop songs have a rms between -6 to -8 db ?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilEchal View Post
don't most of the pop songs have a rms between -6 to -8 db ?
No
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
Gear Nut
 

Actually pop stuff is around -8. Check out Streaky's YouTube for advice on mastering modern music.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
?? Why does your RMS need to be steady, if you want to decrease your volume, decrease it. RMS measures volume. This doesn't make sense.

Your RMS is not on point, its on FIRE!! -6.5RMS IS WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY TOO hot!!!!


ok yeah I ll go down to -8 db rms

it's true at -6 db rms it's a bit too 1D
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
?? Why does your RMS need to be steady, if you want to decrease your volume, decrease it. RMS measures volume. This doesn't make sense.

Your RMS is not on point, its on FIRE!! -6.5RMS IS WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY TOO hot!!!!



ok so I aligned my track to the same RMS ( -9,5 ) and LUFS ( -12,5 ) as my reference track ( here is the screen https://ibb.co/znDMTzJ ) but as you can see
on the screen , my crest factor is almost the double as my reference track

Do you know how to reduce it without increasing my RMS ?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
Quote:
Do you know how to reduce it without increasing my RMS ?
LUFS and RMS both measure loudness. When ever you change one of them, you change both of them. If you want reduce LUFS, lower the volume. It will not increase the RMS. They both measure volume. If you decrease your audio, you decrease both of them..
Quote:
So How could I decrease the lufs without decreasing the rms ?
Impossible and doesn't make any sense...
Its like your trying to raise the temperature in Celsius without changing the Fahrenheit value. Its impossible
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilEchal View Post
Do you know how to reduce it without increasing my RMS ?
I already wrote that you can't do that. LUFS and RMS are both measurements of a signal. You change the LUFS reading by changing the signal, and if you do that then you'll change the RMS reading.

Pick one or the other and forget about the one you didn't pick.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I already wrote that you can't do that. LUFS and RMS are both measurements of a signal. You change the LUFS reading by changing the signal, and if you do that then you'll change the RMS reading.

Pick one or the other and forget about the one you didn't pick.
sorry I wasn't clear .
by " reducing it " I meant the crest factor that is almost twice as big as my reference track ( screenshot above ).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilEchal View Post
sorry I wasn't clear .
by " reducing it " I meant the crest factor that is almost twice as big as my reference track ( screenshot above ).
Ah, sorry.

The loudness measurement is referenced to something, and since we're in the digital domain it's referenced to "FS", as in "dBFS". That means that if you change the crest factor to where you want it and your LUFS reading is now off you can simply adjust the total level of your signal until it matches again.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
LUFS and RMS both measure loudness. When ever you change one of them, you change both of them. If you want reduce LUFS, lower the volume. It will not increase the RMS. They both measure volume. If you decrease your audio, you decrease both of them..

Impossible and doesn't make any sense...
Its like your trying to raise the temperature in Celsius without changing the Fahrenheit value. Its impossible


how would you explain that I got exactly the same rms / peaks ( hence crest factor ) as my reference track while not having the same inegrated LUfs ? ( Mine is -10 while my ref track is -12.5 )

ps : I took the inegrated Lufs as guide cause i 'm looping 4 seconds of both tracks to get the measurements .
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilEchal View Post
how would you explain that I got exactly the same rms / peaks ( hence crest factor ) as my reference track while not having the same inegrated LUfs ? ( Mine is -10 while my ref track is -12.5 )

ps : I took the inegrated Lufs as guide cause i 'm looping 4 seconds of both tracks to get the measurements .
Easy cheesy, LUFS and RMS are different measurements of sound. also, RMS is measured over as period of time longer than 4 seconds. 4 seconds is nothing for RMS. You need to measure the whole song...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilEchal View Post
how would you explain that I got exactly the same rms / peaks ( hence crest factor ) as my reference track while not having the same inegrated LUfs ? ( Mine is -10 while my ref track is -12.5 )
At this point it's probably best to start your explanation over. I'm lost as to what you did, when and how you did it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilEchal View Post
ps : I took the inegrated Lufs as guide cause i 'm looping 4 seconds of both tracks to get the measurements .
"Integrated" time using BS.1770-1/2/3 is a loudness measurement over the entire duration of material. So if you loop 4 seconds and play it back 5 times the average it shows will be of 20 seconds, not 4. These loudness meters also normally come with "short term" and "momentary" loudness, and "short term" as far as I know is about a 3 second window.

RMS doesn't work the same.

This is why you should maybe pick one measurement and ignore the other. If people are saying that using LUFS measurements over the entirety of a piece of music then that's what you should do - NOT loop 4 seconds and put it on repeat. And if you do measure your entire piece of music using a LUFS/LKFS meter then you can stick to that and forget about your RMS reading in my opinion. They measure things differently for a reason. Either one is more appropriate or the other one is.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
At this point it's probably best to start your explanation over. I'm lost as to what you did, when and how you did it.



"Integrated" time using BS.1770-1/2/3 is a loudness measurement over the entire duration of material. So if you loop 4 seconds and play it back 5 times the average it shows will be of 20 seconds, not 4. These loudness meters also normally come with "short term" and "momentary" loudness, and "short term" as far as I know is about a 3 second window.

RMS doesn't work the same.

This is why you should maybe pick one measurement and ignore the other. If people are saying that using LUFS measurements over the entirety of a piece of music then that's what you should do - NOT loop 4 seconds and put it on repeat. And if you do measure your entire piece of music using a LUFS/LKFS meter then you can stick to that and forget about your RMS reading in my opinion. They measure things differently for a reason. Either one is more appropriate or the other one is.



ok thks
Old 3 weeks ago
  #17
Lives for gear
 
SmoothTone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilEchal View Post
I heard the ideal lufs is -13 for spotify etc ..
Check out this thread: Targeting Mastering Loudness for Streaming (LUFS, Spotify, YouTube)-Why NOT to do it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
At this point it's probably best to start your explanation over. I'm lost as to what you did, when and how you did it.



"Integrated" time using BS.1770-1/2/3 is a loudness measurement over the entire duration of material. So if you loop 4 seconds and play it back 5 times the average it shows will be of 20 seconds, not 4. These loudness meters also normally come with "short term" and "momentary" loudness, and "short term" as far as I know is about a 3 second window.

RMS doesn't work the same.

This is why you should maybe pick one measurement and ignore the other. If people are saying that using LUFS measurements over the entirety of a piece of music then that's what you should do - NOT loop 4 seconds and put it on repeat. And if you do measure your entire piece of music using a LUFS/LKFS meter then you can stick to that and forget about your RMS reading in my opinion. They measure things differently for a reason. Either one is more appropriate or the other one is.



I finally understood why the gap between rms and lufs was so big on spotify ^^ I remembered that spotify does a normalization of their track so theu have -13 lufs max but they keep the initial rms of the track uploaded ( I compared a downloaded version spotify and the original version of a track and the original version was -8 rms / -10 lufs whereas spotify wqs -8rms / -13 lufs ) .

problem solved

when it comes to loudness range though what would be the max db range in stereo ouput level automation to get that 6 lufs range ?
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