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What is a good resource to REALLY understand reverb?
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Gear Nut
 

What is a good resource to REALLY understand reverb?

First, i dont know if this belongs in this forum but i wasn't sure where it would fit. If a mod cares to move it i take no issue with that. It's not exactly a noob question because the answers I'm looking for are not the mundane "predelay does this, damping and decay rates does that, etc."

What I'm looking for is something that contains the information necessary to really understand the nuts and bolts of different reverb types. What are the nitty gritty characteristics that make a hall separate from a room, aside from size? Given a flexible reverb like, for instance, one of the heavy duty melda ones, how would i go about emulating a hall from scratch, or a plate? What sort of things do i need to know about absorption, frequency dependent decay rates or early/late reflections to have a deep enough understanding that i could simulate different types of spaces, given control over the right parameters? Thats the sort of thing I'm looking for.

I've been into sound design for years now and it occurred to me that this is somewhat of a blind spot for me. Would appreciate any input.
Old 1 week ago
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzia View Post
First, i dont know if this belongs in this forum but i wasn't sure where it would fit. If a mod cares to move it i take no issue with that. It's not exactly a noob question because the answers I'm looking for are not the mundane "predelay does this, damping and decay rates does that, etc."

What I'm looking for is something that contains the information necessary to really understand the nuts and bolts of different reverb types. What are the nitty gritty characteristics that make a hall separate from a room, aside from size? Given a flexible reverb like, for instance, one of the heavy duty melda ones, how would i go about emulating a hall from scratch, or a plate? What sort of things do i need to know about absorption, frequency dependent decay rates or early/late reflections to have a deep enough understanding that i could simulate different types of spaces, given control over the right parameters? Thats the sort of thing I'm looking for.

I've been into sound design for years now and it occurred to me that this is somewhat of a blind spot for me. Would appreciate any input.
Your question is about acoustics, programs. You ask for detail and here are several texts.

Start with Everest and Pohlmann Master Handbook of Acoustics and Kleiner and Tichy Small Room Acoustics. These will provide a foundation in acoustics. Toole Sound Reproduction gives a good coverage of the psychoacoustics involved. Beranek has several papers related to concert halls on the internet. Adelman-Larsen Rock and Pop Venues focuses on the title venues. Farina has numerous papers on the web.
Old 6 days ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzia View Post
First, i dont know if this belongs in this forum but i wasn't sure where it would fit. If a mod cares to move it i take no issue with that. It's not exactly a noob question because the answers I'm looking for are not the mundane "predelay does this, damping and decay rates does that, etc."

What I'm looking for is something that contains the information necessary to really understand the nuts and bolts of different reverb types. What are the nitty gritty characteristics that make a hall separate from a room, aside from size? Given a flexible reverb like, for instance, one of the heavy duty melda ones, how would i go about emulating a hall from scratch, or a plate? What sort of things do i need to know about absorption, frequency dependent decay rates or early/late reflections to have a deep enough understanding that i could simulate different types of spaces, given control over the right parameters? Thats the sort of thing I'm looking for.

I've been into sound design for years now and it occurred to me that this is somewhat of a blind spot for me. Would appreciate any input.
Try this. Dig into section 5 in particular.
https://3e7777c294b9bcaa5486-bc95634...2_original.pdf
Old 6 days ago
  #4
Gear Head
 

Are there any great in-depth tutorials on reverb?

I'm not talking about these people I haven't heard of with their little YouTube channels and academies. I'm talking Clearmountain, Brauer, Ainley, Schmitt, Elmhirst, Ghenea, Wells, Wallace, Guzauski, Scheps, etc. I'd love to hear them get deep with reverb and effects, like they sometimes do with EQ and compression. I mean really detailed into what they use and how they determine settings and their overall experience in getting it "right."

I know Pensado has some in-depth things on reverb; but he's not my fave mixer, sonically. I don't like CLA mixes, so not too interested in what he's doing. (And he's so arrogant to endure that I have a hard time listening to him speak on anything. So no need to recommend his tutorials.)

I mean, if you listen to Adele's "Hello", or Radiohead or really any good mix, someone is probably doing some cool reverb and delay things. Not as easy to find this info online as you might think.

Last edited by hammond231; 6 days ago at 06:19 AM.. Reason: spelling
Old 6 days ago
  #5
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammond231 View Post
Not as easy to find this info online as you might think.
Not that easy to talk about, either.
Old 6 days ago
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Not that easy to talk about, either.
With respect I ask, why do you say that?

Is it because it’s a complicated discussion to have technically or artistically? Or it’s a secret mixers don’t want to share?

Compression, parallel processing, EQ and mic/preamp combinations can also be deep and involved conversations. Is there something about reverb specifically that makes it difficult to talk about?

Last edited by robshrock; 6 days ago at 08:04 AM.. Reason: Typos
Old 6 days ago
  #7
Lives for gear
Reverb is like gravity. Everything effects everything.

All tracks have reverb to begin with when recorded.
Reverb hardware and plug qualities are all over the place.

One of the few things Ican say is that I hate when reverbs sound metalic.

It's about about creating a space for the mustic.

You have to ask specific question not general ones to get answers. To ask specific question you have to know what to ask. It takes time to learn. You learn by doing.
Old 6 days ago
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammond231 View Post
Are there any great in-depth tutorials on reverb?

I'm not talking about these people I haven't heard of with their little YouTube channels and academies. I'm talking Clearmountain, Brauer, Ainley, Schmitt, Elmhirst, Ghenea, Wells, Wallace, Guzauski, Scheps, etc. I'd love to hear them get deep with reverb and effects, like they sometimes do with EQ and compression. I mean really detailed into what they use and how they determine settings and their overall experience in getting it "right."

I know Pensado has some in-depth things on reverb; but he's not my fave mixer, sonically. I don't like CLA mixes, so not too interested in what he's doing. (And he's so arrogant to endure that I have a hard time listening to him speak on anything. So no need to recommend his tutorials.)

I mean, if you listen to Adele's "Hello", or Radiohead or really any good mix, someone is probably doing some cool reverb and delay things. Not as easy to find this info online as you might think.
Your question is a valid one; but it probably needs its own thread. OP was asking more about understanding how to create different kinds of verb and the more technical aspects of reverb... you’re wanting to have a conversation about the artistic application and techniques of professional mixers.

That’s an area I’m always interested in learning more, as well.
Old 6 days ago
  #9
Gear Nut
 

I think that real life experience on this topic is as important as anything you'll read.

If you have the time , go hang out in some large spaced areas like churches , big halls , large rooms with wooden floors and get a first hand experience of what reverb really is before jumping into too much academic literature.
Old 6 days ago
  #10
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robshrock View Post
With respect I ask, why do you say that?

Is it because it’s a complicated discussion to have technically or artistically? Or it’s a secret mixers don’t want to share?

Compression, parallel processing, EQ and mic/preamp combinations can also be deep and involved conversations. Is there something about reverb specifically that makes it difficult to talk about?
Well, look at how much typing it took just to ask why :-).

No secrets, at least not with me. Not that anyone wants to copy me anyway.

But, just to narrow the degree of complication and subjectivity down to a couple of tiny examples...

1. I used to work at a place that had 6 EMT plates. Supposedly identical inside and out. But everyone on staff there (and the more critical freelancers and clients) agreed that one was stellar, two were very good, two were pretty meh in different ways, and one was to be used as a last resort. It'd have been impossible to scientifically quantify the reasons why this was, but the opinions of a dozen or so people were pretty much unanimous.

2. And just the other day, I was talking to a client I sometimes mix FOH for, and I mentioned that a dry delay would really help his reverb to not sound so cheap. Pretty tactless, even for me. But he wasn't as offended as he probably should have been, and asked for an explanation a layperson could grasp, and it took me a pretty long time to give it to him. Even though I've got a pretty good grip on the principles involved.

Last edited by Brent Hahn; 6 days ago at 04:33 PM..
Old 6 days ago
  #11
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Adams View Post
I think that real life experience on this topic is as important as anything you'll read.

If you have the time , go hang out in some large spaced areas like churches , big halls , large rooms with wooden floors and get a first hand experience of what reverb really is before jumping into too much academic literature.
Wat does this have to do with

Quote:
how would i go about emulating a hall from scratch, or a plate? What sort of things do i need to know about absorption, frequency dependent decay rates or early/late reflections to have a deep enough understanding that i could simulate different types of spaces, given control over the right parameters? Thats the sort of thing I'm looking for.
From the first post in this thread.
Old 6 days ago
  #12
pho
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzia View Post
What I'm looking for is something that contains the information necessary to really understand the nuts and bolts of different reverb types.
Here's a collection of info and insights that I found quite interesting when exploring this myself. I think I found most of them through a collection of articles posted on the old Exponential Audio Website, which now leads directly to iZotope.

*Edit: There's actually a new and extended library of content regarding reverb there as well: https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/reverb.html

Anyway:

Mike Prestwood Smith's Tipps on Reverb in Movie Sound

Picture
The biggest difference between mixing music and mixing movies is that little thing called 'picture'. With a visual reference, sound has a whole new set of criteria. Reverb in a movie mix not only has to sound right, but it has to look right too.
One of the biggest roles of a dialogue mixer is to create a consistent and believable dialogue track that sticks to the screen. Part of that craft is matching all the source recordings into one coherent, believable track.
When I get a new reverb I try and spendsome time matching a dry recording (usually a line of ADR) with some production dialogue, to see if I can match the acoustics. I'll try this with several recordings and get some presets which become my 'go to' settings.

Space
Reverb is an essential component in giving the mix depth and dynamics. Being able to 'place' sound in a geographic space really helps sell a location or a set. Often we use sound to tell a story that isn't quite being told by the picture and sound can really sneak ideas into the viewers consciousness. Using a reverb to suggest scale or distance can make an environment feel very different to the real location.

Immersive
With the new multichannel surround formats we now have a great palate with which toimmerse the audience. I often place reverbs in the overheads or surround objects to create a sense of depth and space. By using these speakers we can describe a space without cluttering up the screen channels.

Heads or Tails
A really transparent and adjustable reverb is an essential tool for any film mixer. Music cues can often need some help getting in and out of a scene. A lumpy start to a cue can bump an audience, as can too swift an exit. Using reverb as a cloak to sneak music in and out is extremely common place and getting a verb that can extend a tail or mask an entrance is essential. The Phoenix reverb is the first reverb I have found that can really do this as well, if not better than anything hardware can offer.

Opportunity
It’s easy to over do reverb in a movie mix. Having a picture can make reverb use too literal and arbitrary. Just because were in a space doesn’t mean we have to hear it. As with any component of a mix, its best to have some light and shade. Wait for a good opportunity for some reverb and then go for it.


Tom Player's Reverb in a Scoring Context

Understand The Personalities Of Your Reverbs
All reverbs have personalities. Cheaper digital reverbs tend to have a metallic, ringy tail. Expensive reverbs have a beautiful clarity that continues right until the signal dies. Special effect reverbs can be completely immersive and enrich the source material incredibly, but may not do a convincing job of creating a virtual space. Even more options for springs, plates, chambers and convolved spaces.
By mixing these different personalities together, you can have a lot of control over the tonal and temporal aspects of your mix, more so than simply using EQ and compression.

Reverb Should Be 'Invisible', or 'Featured' – But Nowhere In Between
Invisible reverb, you ask? What's the point of that! Well, often in scoring and orchestral work, you'll often have recorded sound that presents problems with regards to the mix. Here's a great time to use reverb as a problem solver.
If you've recorded an orchestra in a small room with acoustic problems, often there will be a shorter reverb than desired, and there might be some low-mid congestion. With judicious use of a reverb like Phoenixverb, you can tailor a nice sounding reverb, which will 'fill in the gaps' missing from the source. Try dialling down the early reflections (to avoid more congestion) and find a tail size that works. Once you've got a reverb that's fixing the problems, it should be indistinguishable from the original source, and perform a subtle enhancement
For 'featured' reverb, you have permission to completely reshape the sound – mix with 100% wet verb, use the early reflections only, use the gate and chorus of R2 for a really unique and ear popping production trick. A whole decade of 80's snare sounds were created from this very effect!

Don't Be Afraid To Layer Reverbs
One of my favourite features of plugins in general, unlike hardware, is that once you've bought one – the second, third and fourth (and so on) copies are free! So why not use them creatively. Layer up your reverbs to create a special effect, something distant and otherworldly.
I love to create these distant effects on sustained pad sounds and musical elements that don't change. Set up an arpeggiated synth, run it through five long reverbs and voila – instant pad sounds.
I'd like to see you do that same trick with five EMT plates…!

Less Is More
Often repeated but worth repeating again!
After all these reverb tips, it's easy to get over excited and drown your entire mix in too much reverb, because the ear quickly adjusts to decode the space as you work.
Eventually, you'll have to decide between slowing the tempo right down as you add more reverb, or risk losing information in the 'mush'. So:
Err on the side of caution when using reverb, and let clarity come through. Take a break, rest your ears, and come back to make a snap judgement. If it sounds right within the first few seconds, you've struck the right balance and the ear finds the space believable.


Michael White's Reverb Tipps

Tip 1: Size Up the Space with Early Reflections
After the arrival of the direct sound, Early Reflections are the first set of delays that define the size and shape of a space before the onset of reverb. The length, timing and frequency characteristics of these reflections create the most powerful binaural cues for depth and tonal shaping of any sound in a mix.
Start by setting up a Send/Return configuration in your DAW with the Mix at 100% Wet, The Reverb Level off and the Early Reflections Level maxed out. Adjust the Time, Attack and Slope to shape the space. If you struggle at first, go through extreme settings to get a sense of the range available before settling on a space that sounds natural for the sound you are treating.

Tip 2: Feel the Space
In our everyday lives, Early Reflections are felt more than heard. These Binaural cues allow us to quickly determine the size of a space even if we are unable to see it. When heard too loudly, they tend to interfere with the direct sound causing it to be less intelligible. When blended in subtly with proper tonal coloration, they stage a space that is deep, powerful and clear.
Start by bringing the Early Reflection Level all the way down to Off and slowly raise the level until you start to feel the sense of space. When the Early Reflections are muted, the dry sound will flatten out and the sense of depth and space will be lost. When un-muted, the sense of depth will reappear. I cannot overstate how important this step is! Early Reflections set the stage and environment that your reverb will reside in.

Tip 3: Setting Reverb Type
If the Early Reflections are set up effectively, the ability to use almost any reverb type should be natural and easy. While there are many types of reverbs, the best choice should be based on the needs or deficiencies of the dry sound. In my experience, the most effective choice usually contrasts the tonal characteristics of the original sound.
A bright harsh vocal, for example, can be greatly aided by a warm plate or hall. A warm or dull sounding drum kit can be brought to life with a bright room or chamber. Using a plate reverb to add sustain to a dead snare is a staple of rock and roll drum sounds. Not only do these contrasts greatly aid the character and imaging of the original sound, but they will also add to the audibility of the reverb in the mix.

Tip 4: Reverb Time, Damping and Width
Reverb Time is almost always based on how active the dry performance is. In general, the more active the performance, the shorter the reverb time will need to be. Tempo also plays a vital role as the reverb decay time and shape should be tailored to the rhythm of the music.
Remember, reverb time is calculated by how long it takes total reverberant field to decay by 60 dB. Depending on the density of the mix, more than half of that tail may be inaudible if improperly shaped. Use Damping and EQ Filters to control the reverb time at different frequencies so that the individual reverb settings on different instruments do not mask each other.
Use the Width control to further create separation between different reverbs. There is nothing wrong with mono reverbs that are localized to the same pan position as the instrument. A mono spring reverb on an electric guitar is a classic combination and quite often a necessity do to the complexity of the frequency content.

Tip 5: Pre-Delay and Staging
Pre-Delay is a very powerful tool for staging a performance to the front or back of a mix. When the Pre-Delay is at or near zero, the reverb will attach to the instrument and stage it back in the mix. When set to a medium delay time, the depth of the reverberant space will increase pulling the dry instrument forward while setting the reverberant space back in the mix. When long Pre-Delay times are used, the reverb separates entirely from the dry sound and takes on echo-like characteristics.
The secret to setting Pre-Delay times can be found in the tempo and a little bit of math. If you know the tempo of the song, divide it into 60 and you will get a ¼ note delay time. (60sec / 120bpm = .5sec or 500ms) If you continue to divide this number in half until you get into double and single digit millisecond numbers (63, 32, 16, 8 and 4 at 120bpm) you can start to plug in these numbers as Pre-Delay times for long, medium and short values. However improbable this may seem, it is surprisingly effective in most situations.


Paul Drew's Vocal Reverb Tipps

CONSIDER THE ERA
I tend to change the reverb type depending on the era/ decade of the production genre. If it's a vintage 50's/ 60's sound I'm going for, I will first pull up Chamber and spring reverbs. If it's 70's I'll probably lean towards plates. 80's tracks and I'll probably start at the classic Lexicon hall type of reverb. Anything from the 90s to modern day and anything goes.
What is clear is that for today's producers the use of reverb is varied compared to past decades. This could be due to the fact that everyone has access to better reverbs in plug-in form at a fraction of the cost: compare the sound and the cost of Exponential reverb plug-in to Lexicon hardware.

THE LINES ARE GETTING BLURRED
Access to music has given many a more eclectic music exposure. When I was a school kid I remember people were passionate about a certain type of music. Now it seems people just love music in all its genres. We can listen to Radio One In the UK and a metal track will be followed by Adele. Each type of music has different production styles and you hear many uses of different types of reverb.

LESS IS MORE
We've also been through a period more recently where a less-is-more approach has been adopted with reverb. The vocals are dry and in your face. This is a fantastic way of evoking a sense in the listener that the artist is standing right In front of them.
Now, when we use this technique it can make the vocalist sound disconnected to the rest of the band/production. This is when I would tend to use one of my favourite techniques of sync-to-tempo pre delays. With this technique you will be able to still have an upfront vocal but also blend in with the production.
Basically a pre delay is the amount of time before the reverb kicks in.
There are plenty of tempo calculators on the internet to help you find the correct amount of pre delay to use? I've listed two sites below.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calcula...mtempotime.htm
http://www.thewhippinpost.co.uk/tool...calculator.htm

SETTING UP SYNC BASED PRE-DELAY
For this technique I like a delay of between around 80 milliseconds and up to around 120 milliseconds.
So if your song is say 130bpm a sixteenth of this tempo is 115 ms.
You haven't got to use 16ths, any division can work. It could be that your tempo is 80 bpm therefore a 32nd note would be 93.75 ms.

BREAK THE RULES AND GET UNEXPECTED RESULTS
Also don't be scared to use more than one type of reverb on a vocal. I'll often use a room reverb and say a hall reverb on different sends to get the effect I desire.
Try setting up a delay and then sending a bit of that to a reverb.
Use your ears and remember that anything goes in today's music production.


Early Reflections

In much of the classic literature about reverberation, there's a distinction between the early part of a reverb signal (the first 60-100 milliseconds) and the tail that comes after. We hear these signals in significantly different ways. Let's go back a few million years and walk through a forest. A branch snaps. In most cases, you'll have a very good idea of where it is. Your ears will give you a good approximation of direction and the reflected sound will improve that directional accuracy and also give you a sense of distance--how much danger might you be in? It's worth burning those calories in the brain if it makes the difference between eating lunch and being lunch. A more reverberant signal probably means the danger is farther away--nothing to worry about right away.

Fast-forward to now. You're sitting in a concert hall. Early reflections still tell you something about the position and distance of instruments, They might tell you a few things about the geometry of the room as well. The later reverb signal tells you a few more things--overall size and reflectivity of the space--but there's nothing directional left in the signal.

Early reflections in a reverb do the same thing, but they can also do more. A higher level of early energy (relative to reverb energy) will generally move you closer to the source. The early controls, in conjunction with the reverb attack controls, are the primary way we change perspective.

Of course in many mixes we're not really looking for a realistic sound. We're looking for a 'produced' sound, a vintage sound, an in-your-face sound. For starters it help to know a little about some of the older classic reverb units. A serious early section was out of the reach of most of the dedicated processors in those devices. There were typically one or two reflection voices for each channel. They could be used to create a discrete punch or a bit of backslap, but that's about it. The truth is that those classic reverbs are almost all tail.

It's not unusual for careful listeners to talk about the sound of older recordings from the sixties and seventies. While we (yes, I'm that old) may go on a little too much, there are some underlying truths. The track count was lower, maybe 2 or 4. A big-budget recording might mean 8 or even 16 tracks! This meant that the primary performance happened at the same time in the same space. Besides the advantages of playing together, this meant a lot of microphone leakage. Every mic picked up a little something of everything, and of course this meant a different distance from every sound source to every microphone. That's not very different from applying an early reflection pattern to a mix--even before we start talking about reverb.

These days we're often not in the same room when we make a piece of music. We're often not even in the same country! The different elements of a recording might include direct signal, close-mic'ed signal, or sample libraries. Often a signal might be a little too much in-your-face to blend with the rest of the mix. Using the early section of a reverb can help to smooth that signal and move it back a little. If some of the small room presets don't do the job, try turning down the reverb level and just play with the early reflection part of the signal. Usually a sort predelay (0-6 ms) and a short attack section (20-40 ms) will get you into the ballpark.


Reverb Choice

There really aren't hard and fast rules about what to use, but there are reasons that mixers lean in one direction or another. Because of its long propagation time, a hall is seldom used on percussion instruments. The first 'bounces' of a strong transient are quite audible and are usually very distracting. This can be reduced by increasing diffusion or dialing in a smaller room size. But usually another reverb architecture is a better choice. A chamber works well for percussion. By its nature it's more diffuse and discrete reflections are seldom a problem. A plate is also a good choice and is usually the most popular selection. While not actually realistic, a plate can be very flattering to a snare drum or to a piece of hand percussion. If you have favorite mixes, it's always worth trying to learn about what was used for the mix.

For other types of audio sources, your selections can be more open. Horns in popular music respond well to plates. Synth pads may work nicely in plates or chambers. Voice can work in anything, depending on the overall sound you want. The discrete bounces of a hall--the same bounces that may be distracting for percussion--can provide a subliminal pulse that makes a voice sound huge on a ballad. But again, there's nothing like studying mixes you like and trying to identify the signatures of the various reverb types they used. Real plates, chambers and halls are still very much a part of modern music-making.
A final word about rooms. Rooms are used in mixing for many different purposes. Sometimes you may want a room for an intimate mix--something that's balanced and musical. At other times you may need one for foley work in a film, when musicality isn't part of the, ahem, picture. Many of the Exponential Audio rooms have intentional coloration that works beautifully in one situation and terribly in another. For that reason, experimentation is recommended. The room that's perfect for a Strat/Marshall might be just the wrong thing for a Les/Twin.

/snip


In the end, all of those are just concepts for different situations with different people and minds involved. As with most things you'll propably have to explore this world for yourself, learn, fail, learn more and succeed one step after another and draw conclusions for your own music and work. Great thing is, it's a lot of fun!

Michael Carnes from Exponential Audio is another great source of information regarding all things verb. There's a nice podcast interview/episode with Mike Thornton from Production Expert: https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/hom...michael-carnes

And also a couple of good video tutorials with Exponential Audio's Reverb Plugins:



Old 6 days ago
  #13
Gear Nut
 

These are quite the responses. Thank you very much. Ive got studying to do
Old 6 days ago
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzia View Post
These are quite the responses. Thank you very much. Ive got studying to do
Enjoy your intellectual travels!
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