The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Any patchbay cheatsheets/for idiots help around?
Old 6 days ago
  #1
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

Any patchbay cheatsheets/for idiots help around?

I'm planning in getting a Redco TT/DB25 96PT PATCH BAY
and a Dangerous D Box to up my game and ease my workflow-
any easy to follow tips/cheatsheets/for idiots guide on how to set these up correctly?

Thanks in advance.
Old 6 days ago
  #2
Lives for gear
Make a plan (what do you want to path an why) first.
Old 6 days ago
  #3
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

Ok...
but it's pretty standard-
2 outboard compressors
a reverb unit
a Space echo
500 series preamps


into an Element 88
running Logic Pro X
Old 6 days ago
  #4
Lives for gear
Right. And how would you like to use them?
In what configuratie?
Do you need a patchbay or will it only make things complicated?
Old 6 days ago
  #5
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

well, the idea of a patchbay is to make things easier, correct?
i'm not sure where this is headed-
pretty standard idea-
I want to throw some compression on say, an organ track-
I'm just trying to wrap my head around what the best way to
set up a patchbay is and if there might be a template/standard to work from
i plan on adding a summing mixer, as it seems like a great way to get a better track in the end
Old 6 days ago
  #6
Lives for gear
 

No secrets here. Just connect the ins and outs and put you devices in the order that makes sense to you. You can look up images of patch bay labels to get some ideas of what others have done.
Old 6 days ago
  #7
The only real 'template' or 'standard' for it is outputs run to inputs and so forth.. What you need to decide is what you want permanently wired to what and this is where your planning comes into play.

For instance, your 2 compressors, reverb and Space Echo.. Ok where are these going to be used, usually as an aux/bus send right? So if you're using a mixer, you wire these up so your aux sends are feeding each one, and returning them where you want to go on the mixer. Or in your case since theyre going into an interface, you can change the configuration of those jacks on the patchbay so the jacks aren't connected and your outputs/inputs are just sitting there waiting to be patched in wherever it's needed. This way its configured, when you need that process that organ, you just patch the organs output into the compressors input, then route the compressors output jack to whatever input you want to print it on.

Really it all depends on YOUR setup and what you want permanently connected at all times. We cant tell you that, only you know. I mean technically you could just wire the entire patchbay open and plug everything in and pretend you have a weird modular synth and route everything manually.
Old 6 days ago
  #8
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
i'm not sure where this is headed-
I'm just trying to let you see options.
For starters I don't know the Element 88 but it has two ADAT in and outs.
So you could (if you like) choose to add extra converters (ADA8200 for example) and connect all your equipment to them.
That way you can route anything to anything via software.
Patchbays are leftovers from the analog area.
Nothing wrong with them but there are other solutions.
Old 6 days ago
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by BT64 View Post
I'm just trying to let you see options.
For starters I don't know the Element 88 but it has two ADAT in and outs.
So you could (if you like) choose to add extra converters (ADA8200 for example) and connect all your equipment to them.
That way you can route anything to anything via software.
Patchbays are leftovers from the analog area.
Nothing wrong with them but there are other solutions.
Hate to tell you this but um almost all of our gear does still have analog I/O and patchbays are in fact still very relevant to this day. What other solutions are there for routing 1/4 jacks I wonder? A mixer? What does he do when he gets a new piece of gear and wants to plug something else into those converters? Still requires him to get up and patch it in one way or another doesn't it? The digital routing has nothing to do with how his analog gear gets to that digital pipeline to begin with.
Old 6 days ago
  #10
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monotremata View Post
What does he do when he gets a new piece of gear and wants to plug something else into those converters?
If you have enough in and outputs on your interface (and good routing software) it's no problem.
Connect once and route as you desire.
Old 6 days ago
  #11
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

Thanks.
I don't have a mixer in my workflow now, and was
planning on continuing to do that ITB-

but I do like the idea of something like a bigger SSL Six or something-
I've had a couple working pros tell me that getting a patchbay would ease everything
Old 6 days ago
  #12
Lives for gear
Choices, I don't believe there's a right or wrong.
I just wanted to setup my studio for making music and not replugging equipment.
Works for me and a lot of people coming to my studio love it too.
Fast, easy and non distracting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
I've had a couple working pros tell me that getting a patchbay would ease everything
Ah, ok.
Well go for it.
Old 6 days ago
  #13
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BT64 View Post
Choices, I don't believe there's a right or wrong.
I just wanted to setup my studio for making music and not replugging equipment.
Works for me and a lot of people coming to my studio love it too.
Fast, easy and non distracting.

Ah, ok.
Well go for it.
I'm not looking to do a ton of replugging all the time either-
patchbays seem to minimize that as well-

what do you use/do then?
Old 6 days ago
  #14
Lives for gear
I use an Focusrite liquid saffire 56 as AI.
Got two Focusrite saffire pro 40 (cheap) connected to it via ADAT.
Have a duo Reverb (Lexicon MX400), two stereo compressors, EQ, Multiprocessor and guitar effect processor hookt up to it.
A little mixer for monitoring when playing.
Plenty of inputs for other analog equipment (mic pre's).
With the Mix control software I made route configurations for any setup I like (vocals, guitar or what ever) to use and can recall them with a puch of an button.
Or save it to the AI and work stand alone (without computer).
I see if I can find a picture of my routing setup somewhere...
Attached Files
File Type: pdf StudioSetUp.pdf (993.0 KB, 7 views)
Old 6 days ago
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by BT64 View Post
If you have enough in and outputs on your interface (and good routing software) it's no problem.
Connect once and route as you desire.
Yeah and thats all fine and dandy.. What happens when little Billy brings over his new synth to jam with or little David brings over his new Filterbank you guys want to run a couple tracks through?

Are you going to pull out your whole rack and insert these every time or would you rather just have a jack you can insert it into right there up front whenever you need it.? You make it sound like a patchbay requires constant patching like a modular synth. Its a HARDWIRED connection that can be broken easy as hell when it needs to be and ONLY when it needs to be. Its great only your interface works for your setup, but add more gear than your interface can handle, what are you going to do then? Sometimes all this takes is ONE piece of gear (remember when samplers actually had 8+ analog outputs and people used each and every one of them?). These aren't noise makers, theyre effects units that wont be used every single time all the time. Im not giving up precious audio inputs for something that might only get used during mixdown.

Just because its the way YOU run things doesn't mean a piece of gear is useless and simply a 'leftover' from the 'analog days'. They still serve a very useful purpose. What would you tell a professional studio with 1000 inputs and outputs to manage? 'Oh just buy a bigger console and interface so you can leave it all plugged in there'. Yeah not happening.
Old 6 days ago
  #16
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monotremata View Post
Its great only your interface works for your setup, but add more gear than your interface can handle, what are you going to do then?
Go and get a patchbay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monotremata View Post
Just because its the way YOU run things doesn't mean a piece of gear is useless and simply a 'leftover' from the 'analog days'. They still serve a very useful purpose. What would you tell a professional studio with 1000 inputs and outputs to manage? 'Oh just buy a bigger console and interface so you can leave it all plugged in there'. Yeah not happening.
Keep breathing...
Just saying there are other ways (and maybe more handy for a home studio) then going for an patchbay.
Old 6 days ago
  #17
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
Ok...
but it's pretty standard-
2 outboard compressors
a reverb unit
a Space echo
500 series preamps
into an Element 88
running Logic Pro X
Quote:
I'm planning in getting a Redco TT/DB25 96PT PATCH BA
I would ask: why do you need a 96 point patch bay for this handful of items?

A typical patch bay might have mic preamps out, normalled to recorder line in. The normal is the key to a useful patch bay. It means you don't need to patch anything unless you want to change where it goes.

Just looking at the advertising for the Element 88, it appears it does not have analog inserts or even dedicated analog outputs. The "16 outs" they advertise are all ADAT. Are you using ADAT expanders ?

If not, then the only opportunity you have for patching in your compressors and reverbs is out of the 500 series preamps, into the compressor and then on to the Element 88. Since the 88 has all the input jacks on the FRONT panel, the wires coming from any patch bay would be sticking out there. Which you have to admit looks a little redundant. Frankly I would consider that a kind of "patch bay" itself.

In fact, might you not be needing to grab these anyway- for example - what if you are going in high-z or going in mic level? These combo jacks are useful but to connect them into a patch bay, you will have to commit!

(I would not mix mic signals and line signals in the same patch bay.)

But from what I can see, it seems to me that you would only need a patch bay that had
outputs from the preamps >
> normalled to >
> inputs to the interface
on one side

and then 'floating' (not normalled) outputs and inputs for the outboard on the other side. You could patch the snare drum into compressor A, and back out of compressor A into the line input - or if you did not like it, patch the snare drum into compressor B. Or change your mind, disconnect the compressor altogether and record the snare dry with no patching.

The 'normal' thing allows your mic preamps to go straight on to the interface if you don't patch anything. If you want to patch something in, putting in the plug breaks the normal and allows you to route the signal elsewhere.

With such a small setup, I would question how much "time" you are saving with this, but unless you get a lot more input channels or get a lot more outboard gear, you probably don't need such a big patch bay.

If you got ADAT expanders for i/o you could insert your outboard gear at mixdown, though you would have to compensate for the latency. This would be another set of patch points that you might want to have at some point: inserts

Your interface does not look like it has a way to do inserts as it is, however. You would need the expanders.
Old 6 days ago
  #18
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I would ask: why do you need a 96 point patch bay for this handful of items?

A typical patch bay might have mic preamps out, normalled to recorder line in. The normal is the key to a useful patch bay. It means you don't need to patch anything unless you want to change where it goes.

Just looking at the advertising for the Element 88, it appears it does not have analog inserts or even dedicated analog outputs. The "16 outs" they advertise are all ADAT. Are you using ADAT expanders ?

If not, then the only opportunity you have for patching in your compressors and reverbs is out of the 500 series preamps, into the compressor and then on to the Element 88. Since the 88 has all the input jacks on the FRONT panel, the wires coming from any patch bay would be sticking out there. Which you have to admit looks a little redundant. Frankly I would consider that a kind of "patch bay" itself.

In fact, might you not be needing to grab these anyway- for example - what if you are going in high-z or going in mic level? These combo jacks are useful but to connect them into a patch bay, you will have to commit!

(I would not mix mic signals and line signals in the same patch bay.)

But from what I can see, it seems to me that you would only need a patch bay that had
outputs from the preamps >
> normalled to >
> inputs to the interface
on one side

and then 'floating' (not normalled) outputs and inputs for the outboard on the other side. You could patch the snare drum into compressor A, and back out of compressor A into the line input - or if you did not like it, patch the snare drum into compressor B. Or change your mind, disconnect the compressor altogether and record the snare dry with no patching.

The 'normal' thing allows your mic preamps to go straight on to the interface if you don't patch anything. If you want to patch something in, putting in the plug breaks the normal and allows you to route the signal elsewhere.

With such a small setup, I would question how much "time" you are saving with this, but unless you get a lot more input channels or get a lot more outboard gear, you probably don't need such a big patch bay.

If you got ADAT expanders for i/o you could insert your outboard gear at mixdown, though you would have to compensate for the latency. This would be another set of patch points that you might want to have at some point: inserts

Your interface does not look like it has a way to do inserts as it is, however. You would need the expanders.
I think you neant to link to something in the "In fact, might you not be needing to grab these anyway- " line--

I am not using ADAT expanders, but seems like I should consider that
any suggestions?
Old 6 days ago
  #19
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
I think you neant to link to something in the "In fact, might you not be needing to grab these anyway- " line--
no

I meant that if you plug in a bunch cables from your patch bay > in to the front of the Element 88, to just leave them there and only use the patch bay, you would be committing to using them all as line inputs.

But in real life, you might want to use the hi-z input of channel 1 or the mic input of channel 6 from time to time. Then you would have to grab one of them, and unplug it anyway.

That is the "these" I am referring to. The front of your Element 88 is already a 'patch bay' in a sense. Making the patch bay you actually 'need' even smaller.

Vanishingly small, would be my personal opinion.

Quote:
I am not using ADAT expanders, but seems like I should consider that
any suggestions?
there are tons out there. Do you have a plan for how you intend to use them? Or are you just looking to buy stuff? I would not get any unless I was summing OTB or inserting a lot outboard hardware.
Old 6 days ago
  #20
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
no

I meant that if you plug in a bunch cables from your patch bay > in to the front of the Element 88, to just leave them there and only use the patch bay, you would be committing to using them all as line inputs.

But in real life, you might want to use the hi-z input of channel 1 or the mic input of channel 6 from time to time. Then you would have to grab one of them, and unplug it anyway.

That is the "these" I am referring to. The front of your Element 88 is already a 'patch bay' in a sense. Making the patch bay you actually 'need' even smaller.

Vanishingly small, would be my personal opinion.


there are tons out there. Do you have a plan for how you intend to use them? Or are you just looking to buy stuff? I would not get any unless I was summing OTB or inserting a lot outboard hardware.
Man.
Now you see how dense I am, and how I'm not able to see this in 3D-
I don't want to buy anymore than I need-I'm not Gas'ing for anything other than just being able to wire it up in a way so i only have to plug in a mic to a pre amp, and then add that outboard compressor, or saturator, or Space Echo-

maybe I do just need a way to expand my outs so that I can come to that conclusion- I appreciate you sticking with me while I continue to misunderstand-
I'll get it eventually
here's more or less what I'm working with
Attached Thumbnails
Any patchbay cheatsheets/for idiots help around?-img_0816.jpg  
Old 6 days ago
  #21
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
-I don't want to buy anymore than I need-I'm not Gas'ing for anything other than just being able to wire it up in a way so i only have to plug in a mic to a pre amp, and then add that outboard compressor, or saturator, or Space Echo-
Sounds very reasonable, but be aware that you can do that with a much smaller patch bay than the one you are looking at, because you only have so many preamps and so many compressors/echo units, and only so many inputs going into your interface.

Looking at the front panel of a patch bay, you need one output coming from each of your preamps - normalled into a row of inputs below that go to your interface. Your interface maxes out at 8 line inputs, I assume you have 8 or fewer preamps? So your top row 1-8 would be preamp out. Your bottom row 1-8 would be interface in.

then you would need an output and an input point for each channel of outboard gear. A stereo compressor, for example would use up four patch points - two in and two out. These should not be normalled, normally! this could be 9-16 potentially. With outputs always on the top and inputs always on the bottom, please.

so, looking at your list, and assuming all your outboard units are stereo (and assuming you have 8 preamps) you would need 32 points to have total flexibility to do the patching you desire for recording.
.

Quote:
maybe I do just need a way to expand my outs so that I can come to that conclusion
You would only need this if you plan to insert compressors or other processors into already recorded tracks while mixing. (you will have to compensate for latency) You can get ADAT A to D units (inputs) and you can get ADAT D to A units( outputs) . You could maybe skip the A to D if you used your front panel jacks again as the D/A inputs for inserting your hardware. You would have to assign this in the DAW and avoid feedback loops. Presumably you will not be recording new mics during the mixdown so they will be available.

Maybe you will want to plan ahead and get the larger patch bay for this future usage but again, 8 channels of inserts is just 16 more patch points. You can just as easily add a second small patch bay whenever you think you are ready.

The question again is, do you ever use the jacks on the front panel of the 88 interface for mics or for hi-z guitars and basses? Or do you have hi-Z inputs built in to your 500 series preamps? That won't make this impossible but it will add to the PITA factor. It's already a bit of a PITA because the input jacks of the 88 are on the FRONT and they will need to be connected to wires coming from the BACK of the patch bay.
Old 6 days ago
  #22
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

I do occasionally use the front inputs, but only because I haven't set everything in stone- and it's easier to just say, record stereo out of a synth-
I have 5-6 preamps-and a Radial EXTC
Old 6 days ago
  #23
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
I do occasionally use the front inputs, but only because I haven't set everything in stone- and it's easier to just say, record stereo out of a synth-
I have 5-6 preamps-and a Radial EXTC
how many synths do you have?

There are many things you could consider when planning your patch bay.

The ultimate idea for a patch bay would be to have the ins and outs of every single piece of equipment in the studio. Including inserts and sidechains. Carefully thought-out normals. The down side is the expense and hassle of setting up a ton of stuff - some of which you are probably never going to use. The miles of extra cabling. And if you think you are confused now, wait until you have do the wiring for a compressor's sidechain input.

In a pro studio, they go all out, but I would say most personal studios make compromises in their patch bays.

Maybe hold off for a little longer and while you are working, make some mental notes about what you are patching and how often. Pretty soon it should be clear what your needs are.

Look at the expanders the same way. Are you recording full bands or really big drum kits? Are you wishing you could more easily use your hardware at mixdown? Then maybe you want input expanders or output expanders, respectively. If you get those expanders later, you can always add more patchbay units for them as needed.
Old 5 days ago
  #24
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

Thanks, I guess it's really about using what I have, but not having to run around the back everytime i want to run say, drum tracks through my Overstayer Saturator or compressor, post recording-

I totally get what you mean about the hassle of having the Element ins all on the front-
Old 5 days ago
  #25
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
Thanks, I guess it's really about using what I have, but not having to run around the back everytime i want to run say, drum tracks through my Overstayer Saturator or compressor, post recording-
Now I am confused. How are you inserting your hardware post recording? From the photo on Sweetwater, there don't seem to be any analog outputs besides the "main" and the "alt" on the Interface.

Can you assign things to the "alt" in the DAW? Or is it just a mirror of the main outputs?
Old 5 days ago
  #26
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

I did say I was dense.

I mean, re-recording-like reamping or treating something, like say a piano, running it through
some modular synth gear or what ever.

sorry.
Old 5 days ago
  #27
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
I did say I was dense.

I mean, re-recording-like reamping or treating something, like say a piano, running it through
some modular synth gear or what ever..
well re-recording or reamping carry the implication that the instrument has already been recorded in the DAW (or tape) and that you are sending it back out to get this processing. And then back in to get recorded on a new track. Then you might mute the old track, etc.

If you are processing on the way in, no matter how long your 'chain', that's just processing. There's no "re" involved. To be able to reamp through your hardware might be cool and all, and that's where, for your interface, you would need the expander.

Because your interface has no outputs.

I think the idea I proposed earlier would be enough to get you started

Quote:
Looking at the front panel of a patch bay, you need one output coming from each of your preamps - normalled into a row of inputs below that go to your interface. Your interface maxes out at 8 line inputs, I assume you have 8 or fewer preamps? So your top row 1-8 would be preamp out. Your bottom row 1-8 would be interface in.

then you would need an output and an input point for each channel of outboard gear. A stereo compressor, for example would use up four patch points - two in and two out. These should not be normalled, normally! this could be 9-16 potentially. With outputs always on the top and inputs always on the bottom, please.

so, looking at your list, and assuming all your outboard units are stereo (and assuming you have 8 preamps) you would need 32 points to have total flexibility to do the patching you desire for recording.
You have fewer than 8 preamps so those unused could be left open, or maybe have your synth permanently left in a pair of channels, whatever. That redco looks nice, but keep in mind that you can get 48 point patch bays that would cover your current needs, and still have a few more spots open - and cost less.

If you get expanders, you could use them as inserts and maybe pick up a second patch bay for them at that point. If you buy everything all at once, then maybe the 96 point PB makes more sense.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump