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Why does hardware/analog sound like 3D and plugins/digital like 2D?
Old 12th July 2019
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erike123 View Post
Why does hardware/analog sound like 3D and plugins/digital like 2D?
After reading most of the post (not all) I'm guessing:
Because you believe there's a difference.
Old 12th July 2019
  #182
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sacksey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by erike123 View Post
Agree, but yet, as soon as you record analog (infinite) it becomes finite, right? But when you listen to the recorded piece, the 3D is still there
The "inifinte" quality of analog has to do with the 1:1 response of the input/output changes. What you do to that signal after that fact is not what it's about in the first place.
Old 12th July 2019
  #183
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
If you're mixing for a client of yours and the client says "put the lead vocal and snare in the center please", what do you reply?
In that situation, I'd not even bother to reply:

I'd just "pan it center" (like everybody else), and go on with life (just as if the Emperor were indeed fully clothed and Peter Pan were indeed flying on her own).

Likewise, if the client's kid were in my studio making a Christmas record, I wouldn't make a point of telling her that there was no such thing as Santa Claus.

...On the other hand, this ain't no session (and I'm not getting paid here), so I tend to speak more freely than I would if I were taking somebody's money.
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Old 12th July 2019
  #184
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
[INDENT]In that situation, I'd not even bother to reply:

I'd just "pan it center" (like everybody else), and go on with life (just as if the Emperor were indeed fully clothed and Peter Pan were indeed flying on her own).
Exactly. Because everyone knows what "center" means when talking about stereo, including you. The "phantom" in "phantom center" is just there to illustrate the difference between the above and using an actual center channel.

So again - your semantic exercise is meaningless or disingenuous since even you use language the way we normally do, because the meaning is clear.

Can't tell who's more bored; you for going down that unproductive path or me for responding...
Old 12th July 2019
  #185
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Can't tell who's more bored; you for going down that unproductive path or me for responding...
Well, ya got one thing right:

This IS getting boring!
"E pur si muove"
.
Old 12th July 2019
  #186
Gear Guru
 

wiki:
Quote:
Phantom center refers to the way human ears detect the location of a sound; straight ahead, above, or behind the head. Since humans have one ear on each side of the head, sound in aforementioned locations creates an equal sensation in each ear. Thus, based only on hearing, the sound can be determined to be in one of said locations, as opposed as to the left, or to the right. In stereo mixing of sound a phantom center is often created, by the use of panning. Even though there is no center speaker, vocals could appear to come from precisely between the two speakers, provided the listener is located in the sweet spot. In surround sound, vocals are often mapped to the center channel, eliminating the need to create a phantom center using the left and right channels.
]
Linkwitz:
Quote:
Phantom stereo-center-speaker
A solid center image is a fundamental requirement for a stereo loudspeaker setup. Without it one cannot expect to hear a spatially detailed phantom scene on program material.
Dolby:
Quote:
The phantom center has been in use since stereo began, and thus is well understood.
I used a format that's easier for you to read. Should make it easier to accept the use of the term once reading it.
Old 12th July 2019
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Should make it easier to accept the use of the term once reading it.
Oh, I fully accept the term (and use it all the time).

Its not like I don't know what folks are talking about here, or that I don't understand that it is an accepted psychoacoustic phenomenon observed in most people.

Its just that it has NEVER sounded as described to me.

The only person I ever met who understood my point of view on this subject was an opera singer (who upon hearing my observations) once told me "I know what you mean; stereo is good for the orchestra, and bad for the singer."
.
Old 12th July 2019
  #188
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It doesn't sound "phantom"?
Old 12th July 2019
  #189
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
It doesn't sound "phantom"?
Its more like this:
The "left channel" sounds like its here
The "right channel" sounds like its here
But the "phantom center" sounds like its
Here
and Here
and Here
All at the same time!
Old 12th July 2019
  #190
Gear Guru
 

Like I said, if that's how you perceive it then you shouldn't be mixing in stereo for people. What you're describing is zero difference in perceived spatial placement. Lacking the ability to perceive spatial placement in stereo makes for a poor sound engineer.
Old 12th July 2019
  #191
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Thus begat the great indent wars of 2019.
Old 12th July 2019
  #192
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Thus begat the great indent wars of 2019.
Silly me.

They're not lights at all!

They're SPEAKERS (and there are only two of them).
Old 12th July 2019
  #193
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Thus begat the great indent wars of 2019.
THAT is funny.....!
Old 12th July 2019
  #194
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
THAT is funny.....!
Why would anybody really care about such a thing, anyway?
(If you just hit the "reply button" and start typing, it doesn't really matter.)

The only time I've ever seen it really come into play is when somebody wants to edit somebody else's post (in order to address a particular point).

...Which is all fine and good to do (if you want), but what obligation do I have to make it easy?
.
Old 12th July 2019
  #195
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
what obligation do I have to make it easy?[/INDENT]
.
No obligation. It's just that sometimes it's nice to be nice and make things easier for other people.

But I get that you don't care about that.
No worries though, the indent makes you look totally unique. It's very cool.
Old 12th July 2019
  #196
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Why would anybody really care about such a thing, anyway?
(If you just hit the "reply button" and start typing, it doesn't really matter.)

The only time I've ever seen it really come into play is when somebody wants to edit somebody else's post (in order to address a particular point).

...Which is all fine and good to do (if you want), but what obligation do I have to make it easy?
.
Dude he hates indenting and you hate phantom center....
How about "phantom indenting"?
That should piss both of you off!........
Old 12th July 2019
  #197
Gear Nut
 

You al missed the obvious explanation: it sounds 2D because it is 2D. It’s on a flat screen.

When I mix I put on my 3D glasses and my plugins suddenly sounds like real 3D hardware.

:facepalm

Nah... I think it’s placebo. I don’t think one could tell the difference in a double blind test. Sure it will sound different, because you’re running the signal through different things, but better or more 3D? Nope. Not necessarily.

And when it comes to your audience, less than 0.1% would notice it what path you took.
Old 12th July 2019
  #198
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KevWind's Avatar
DA DA queue drum roll
I just realized the answer to the title question.
And it is even simpler and more obvious than even Ninecows post, and no wonder everybody overlooks it.

It's because the hardware case is in fact 3 dimensional W, H, D.. and plugins are in fact 2 dimensional 1 and 0 whew ! finally settled. Ol Albert would be proud.
Old 12th July 2019
  #199
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Thus begat the great indent wars of 2019.
Who will ever forget where they were that day?
Old 12th July 2019
  #200
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
[RIGHT][...]the indent makes you look totally unique. It's very cool.
I don't know about that, but its as close to "3D" as I could get on a flat screen (with Unicode anyway).
.
Old 12th July 2019
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
I don't know about that, but its as close to "3D" as I could get on a flat screen (with Unicode anyway).
.
Well, there is a crosspoint with the OP, as indenting is manipulating spatialization of text rather than sound sources, albeit in a 2 dimensional plane.

There seems right now many new tools both as plugins and stand alone apps that deal with spatialization of audio events within a 3 dimensional space...something within the mathematical wheelhouse of digital systems. I don't know if there are analog equivalents of such tools.
Old 13th July 2019
  #202
Ident, therefore I am.
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