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Reverb.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
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Reverb.....

Hello,

Does anyone know how to apply a stereo reverb without getting phase issues. Using an aux bus and sending drum hits individually to the reverb as per every description/tutorial on the internet yet even when the smallest amount is applied the phase meter goes straight into anti-phase. Not sure why stereo reverbs exist if there is inherent phase issues, what's the point? The reverb I'm using is SIR1 and it doesn't seem to matter what IR I use it still does the same thing.....same thing happens with the melda convolution reverb too....and before anyone says, that's what reverb is (out of phase), there are plenty of pro productions that have tons of reverb on that aren't out of phase so what's the deal.....?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
Quote:
Does anyone know how to apply a stereo reverb without getting phase issues
You should not be hearing phase, when adding a reverb (stereo or mono) on a bus

If you use the reverb on a bus with a send, like you said, make sure that you have the reverb set to 100% WET
Make sure you have the pre and post send set up correctly on the track and send level.

Quote:
when the smallest amount is applied the phase meter goes straight into anti-phase.
What do you hear?
Do you hear phase?
do you like the sound from it?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimp2020 View Post
Hello,

Does anyone know how to apply a stereo reverb without getting phase issues. Using an aux bus and sending drum hits individually to the reverb as per every description/tutorial on the internet yet even when the smallest amount is applied the phase meter goes straight into anti-phase. Not sure why stereo reverbs exist if there is inherent phase issues, what's the point? The reverb I'm using is SIR1 and it doesn't seem to matter what IR I use it still does the same thing.....same thing happens with the melda convolution reverb too....and before anyone says, that's what reverb is (out of phase), there are plenty of pro productions that have tons of reverb on that aren't out of phase so what's the deal.....?
I get your point.
When your phase meter is monitoring the ISOLATED reverb returns, it may indeed display high phase correlation.
However, the reverb mixed together with the dry signals will probably show more "normal" (up to 90º) readings.

Hope this helped.

Regards.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
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Set any reverb on a send to 100% wet. Mix as required with dry signal. Check phase correlation on master bus. Pre-delay and high-pass reverb as necessary.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
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Hmm... put the stereo reverb returns into two separate inputs, pan both of them to the center and flip the polarity on one. A very few “stereo” reverbs tend to be mostly a mono reverb with the polarity reversed on one channel.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
You should not be hearing phase, when adding a reverb (stereo or mono) on a bus

If you use the reverb on a bus with a send, like you said, make sure that you have the reverb set to 100% WET
Make sure you have the pre and post send set up correctly on the track and send level.


What do you hear?
Do you hear phase?
do you like the sound from it?
Hi mate thanks for the reply....

No I don't hear any comb filtering or phase difference (even when summed to mono) but the correlation meter is solidly in anti phase (which it's not on pro tracks). And yes the reverb is set to 100% wet.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodba View Post
I get your point.
When your phase meter is monitoring the ISOLATED reverb returns, it may indeed display high phase correlation.
However, the reverb mixed together with the dry signals will probably show more "normal" (up to 90º) readings.

Hope this helped.

Regards.
The phase meter is on the master bus. I'll give You a run down of the problem. Essentially I've got a top end kick layered on the main kick (hp filtered to add clarity to the main kick) with a bit of reverb on it, the track starts with just the kicks, snare and a hat, that's when I am noticing the phase meter going into anti phase, and it's the reverb on the top kick that's doing it, that is not acceptable.....yet I've heard this technique described many many times, so what the hell am I doing wrong.....I am not just phase analysing the reverb signal on it's own, all dry signals are in there too.....lets also be clear here, there is no audible phase problem (even when summed to mono), just the visual one, yet I don't see this on "pro" tracks.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murky Waters View Post
Set any reverb on a send to 100% wet. Mix as required with dry signal. Check phase correlation on master bus. Pre-delay and high-pass reverb as necessary.
I will try hp the reverb.....thank You.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Hmm... put the stereo reverb returns into two separate inputs, pan both of them to the center and flip the polarity on one. A very few “stereo” reverbs tend to be mostly a mono reverb with the polarity reversed on one channel.
I am using IR's not algo's so most should be true stereo.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
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Right, just had a wee check, the reverb itself is not out of phase, even at 100% width, it's literally on the line between in and out of phase, it's the addition of msed that is making it go over into anti phase. I can keep the reverb JUST in phase by setting the width on the reverb plugin to 50% width, that's with 6db of side gain applied by msed on reverb channel too, without msed after the verb (with the verb on 50% width) it's well in phase.....so for now I'll just not use msed.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
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You didn’t mention that you were using a mid/side plug.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimp2020 View Post
the track starts with just the kicks, snare and a hat, that's when I am noticing the phase meter going into anti phase, and it's the reverb on the top kick that's doing it, that is not acceptable.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimp2020 View Post
lets also be clear here, there is no audible phase problem (even when summed to mono), just the visual one, yet I don't see this on "pro" tracks.....
Seriously: Who on earth cares about what you see on your meter when they listen to your music???

If you can't hear the problem in stereo or mono, why is this an issue? Does it cause any other issues at some point?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Seriously: Who on earth cares about what you see on your meter when they listen to your music???

If you can't hear the problem in stereo or mono, why is this an issue? Does it cause any other issues at some point?

It's an issue because it's wrong and other tracks don't do it.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
You didn’t mention that you were using a mid/side plug.
Indeed, because I didn't realise it would affect it by just adding a bit of side gain.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
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Still can't get it as wide as commercial tracks.....think I'm about done with it tbf.....just annoying the **** out of me now.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Seriously: Who on earth cares about what you see on your meter when they listen to your music???

If you can't hear the problem in stereo or mono, why is this an issue? Does it cause any other issues at some point?
Why do correlation meters exist mate?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimp2020 View Post
Why do correlation meters exist mate?
Eye candy?
Seriously, correlation meters were essential when the final musical product was going to be cut as a stereo lacquer and played on both mono (AM) and stereo (FM) radio. Too much “side” information caused too much vertical excursion and possible skipping on a vinyl record, and that “side” information completely disappeared on a mono broadcast.
Those concerns are relatively unimportant today, but the metering is still a useful tool.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimp2020 View Post
Why do correlation meters exist mate?
I think you should tell me that. It's pretty clear between this thread and your other one that you have already decided that this is a big problem even if you can't hear it, so you tell me why they exist.

Clearly nothing we say at this point will help you.

PS: I deliver stuff for broadcast all the time, and it'd never pass QC if there are phase issues when summing to mono. I never look at the meter if it sounds fine, and I never had an issue with a QC rejection in one of those cases.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I never look at the meter if it sounds fine, and I never had an issue with a QC rejection in one of those cases.
Just curious... do you routinely check mixes in mono before finishing them?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Just curious... do you routinely check mixes in mono before finishing them?
For post production? Pretty much never.

Like I said earlier, if I hear an issue I'll hit mono and listen to it and also double-check on a meter, and I can remember exactly 1 time in the past decade where this happened and it ended up being an issue with something having happened in the video edit before I got the material (i.e. one side 'slipped' a hair yet showed up as 'matching' left/right on my end on import). That was a painful time consuming thing to fix, but caught it before QC. So, ears, ears, ears...

And also again; this was audible in a mix and when soloing the music stem. I could certainly have reverb giving weird results on a meter, reverb used on for example sound effects, but as long as I don't hear it I won't check it and it doesn't get kicked back in QC.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Eye candy?
Seriously, correlation meters were essential when the final musical product was going to be cut as a stereo lacquer and played on both mono (AM) and stereo (FM) radio. Too much “side” information caused too much vertical excursion and possible skipping on a vinyl record, and that “side” information completely disappeared on a mono broadcast.
Those concerns are relatively unimportant today, but the metering is still a useful tool.
And My tracks are designed to be played in clubs, therefore phase is important.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimp2020 View Post
And My tracks are designed to be played in clubs, therefore phase is important.....
So all of a sudden the reverb that is buried in your mix that you can't hear the phase problems of in your studio would be audible in clubs?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #23
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To the OP:
Why are “clubs” an answer to why this is important to you? Are most clubs playing music in mono? Or do people in clubs complain if your reverbs are too wide or narrow?
There must be some serious audiophile clubs near you.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #24
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Owen L T's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimp2020 View Post
Right, just had a wee check, the reverb itself is not out of phase, even at 100% width, it's literally on the line between in and out of phase, it's the addition of msed that is making it go over into anti phase. I can keep the reverb JUST in phase by setting the width on the reverb plugin to 50% width, that's with 6db of side gain applied by msed on reverb channel too, without msed after the verb (with the verb on 50% width) it's well in phase.....so for now I'll just not use msed.....
The level of the reverb return on most of my mixes is at somewhere like -50dB. It really makes no difference whether an analyser tells you the reverb is in phase or out of phase; it is simply NOT going to introduce phase issues. Adding M/S processing to a reverb is, on the other hand, not at all common practise. Not wrong, in and of itself, but not a step that's going to help widen your mixes. There is no reason to be even putting an analyser on a reverb to begin with - it's just not a factor.

But you are really making life impossible for yourself by, on the one hand, narrowing the width of your reverb plugin - which, yes, will only show up in your analyser as 100% in phase when it's in mono - and then fighting that move by boosting the sides with another plugin. If it SOUNDS too wide then, sure, narrow it. But the above process is going around in circles. The two moves, narrowing the plugin then boosting the sides are trying to do the exact opposite thing to each other.

On GS, it's rare to get a concensus on anything: but when literally everyone is advising against using phase analysers this way ... maybe they're right?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #25
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Murky Waters's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimp2020 View Post
And My tracks are designed to be played in clubs, therefore phase is important.....
Only for the low end.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #26
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VirusAndSpamBin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
To the OP:
Why are “clubs” an answer to why this is important to you? Are most clubs playing music in mono? Or do people in clubs complain if your reverbs are too wide or narrow?
There must be some serious audiophile clubs near you.
And drunk, right?
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