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How can they record all instruments at once?
Old 11th May 2019
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

How can they record all instruments at once?

IN this video somehow they record all the instruments at once:

https://youtu.be/exQRfHbSwn0


Now I have some questions:

1. How?
2. Wouldn't each microphone there pick up the sound from standing near by instruments. For example I can imagine that every microphone picks up the sound of those drums and piano...
3. Why would they put those blankets over piano?! I mean what can a blanket do to such strong sound waves?
4. What is up with putting her in the corner, I mean doesn't the position of each instrument actually affect its acoustics?
5. Why does everything sound so kind of mixed like... No distinct instruments but rather all sounds somehow blended. I can't describe what I mean lol all together melting together and echoing
6. What's up with so many diffusers ? Why? Why no absorbtion at all?! The hell...

This video weirds me out so much... what is going on here....
Since its George Massenburg sitting there I guess he knows what's he doing but still I have no clue what he's doing so if someone smarter than me could share his opinion would be very thankful!
Old 11th May 2019
  #2
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kennybro's Avatar
Don't know about who is smarter than who, but it's done all the time like this, if one has the space, facilities and available talent. Put less weight into internet opinion chatter. A lot of people might jump I and say, "She's singing way too close to that mic!"
Old 11th May 2019
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Don't know about who is smarter than who, but it's done all the time like this, if one has the space, facilities and available talent. Put less weight into internet opinion chatter. A lot of people might jump I and say, "She's singing way too close to that mic!"
hmmm I'm a noob and have no clue about anything... Still, does he even have separate tracks of each instrument so after recording he can turn down a certain instrument if it was too loud or idk?!
Old 11th May 2019
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

Also definitely they compiled this out of many tries... IT wasn't done in one turn. You can even see the video cutting.

So, how can he mix stuff like that if he can't control each instrument seperately?

He can't just put her voice together with the previous instrumental recording since there would be some difference and other instruments from the previous recording would be heard in her vocals?!

He also can't just cut her voice and all the instruments and just attach the audio from the previous recording because there would be difference and would sound weird?!

Like... maybe he didnt even cut the song and all was done many times over until he got 1 time everything right and perfect. But that seems demanding!! Entire group of people hitting the right string at the right time througout the whole song... Isn't it easier to have them one by one recorded and then compiled?!

I have no clue I am just curious
Old 11th May 2019
  #5
Gear Nut
 
Janne19691's Avatar
2. Not much if you control the bleed like the video shows. All acoustic instruments have been more or less isolated from each other. The guitar players are either playing direct or have amps in different room mic'ed up. Monitored with headphones. Vocals and cello in isolated area and so on.
3. To control the bleed. They are not looking very thin material to me.
4. To control the bleed. Yes, it seems the material around her was put there to control the reflections.
5. When you mix the instruments, they are supposed to blend, don't they. The person who mixed this has applied some reverb.
6. You put the diffusers to stop standing waves in the studio. It's normal way to control acoustics of the room.

The engineer is controlling all instruments separately (see above). The song seems like it's easy to repeat multiple times if needed. There is very little or no improvisation. Even the guitar solo can be composed beforehand.
Old 11th May 2019
  #6
Here for the gear
The engineer has way more control in this situation than back in the day when they had everyone gathered around one mic.

Yes, there is bleed - some producers like that as it sounds like "one performance, not a bunch of separate parts put together." Recording live of the floor usually injects more spirited performances because everyone plays off each other and that emotional lift means more to a great recording than 'pefect' acoustics. Look up the movie The Wrecking Crew on Netflix - there'd be a room of musicians elbow to elbow, and they recorded so many of what we consider R&B, rock and more classics.
Attached Thumbnails
How can they record all instruments at once?-halblaine_web.jpg  
Old 11th May 2019
  #7
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avare's Avatar
 

Have you tried to listen to an orchestra with just one set of ears?
Old 11th May 2019
  #8
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
hmmm I'm a noob and have no clue about anything... Still, does he even have separate tracks of each instrument so after recording he can turn down a certain instrument if it was too loud or idk?!
You don't need to record everything one at a time to have separate tracks. Of course, he has DAW and everything is routed to individual tracks. The bleed is fine.

We tracked this live, except for me overdubbing the vocal harmony and the BG Vox over my live lead vocal. Drums in one room and everyone else in another with the door open between. No headphones, Drums weren't even close mic, but Glyn Johns setup two overhead and one in the kik.
The key here is to use small amps, close mic and run bass direct. The piano is a real vintage Wurly, and just the little on-board speaker was close mic'd. Drummer does not play loud. The low volume kept bleed down, but a bit of bleed is great to glue things together. Still, I had plenty of separation for balancing levels and EQ without cross interference. It's pretty easy, and it's the most fun way to record.
Attached Files

Ride in the Backseat.mp3 (4.05 MB, 1202 views)

Old 11th May 2019
  #9
Its not what you see. It is what you do not see that makes all the difference. If you were to 'pull the curtains back' you will see the genius behind it.

CJ
Old 11th May 2019
  #10
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thismercifulfate's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
IN this video somehow they record all the instruments at once:

https://youtu.be/exQRfHbSwn0


Now I have some questions:
1. How?
If you go back to the 40's, 50's and 60's, that was how it was done. With 30 or even 50 musicians all in the same room, doing live takes together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
2. Wouldn't each microphone there pick up the sound from standing near by instruments. For example I can imagine that every microphone picks up the sound of those drums and piano...
Yes, bleed happens. The thing is, it's not the end of the world and it becomes part of the sound. The room isn't super tiny either, and although you may not see any absorption in the video, it is there. They're also employing some amount of baffling and this music is more on the softer side, which always makes bleed more manageable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
3. Why would they put those blankets over piano?! I mean what can a blanket do to such strong sound waves?
Those heavy packing blankets, they actually can do a lot. I know this because I've done it many times. It knocks the bleed from the drums down by a decent amount. The piano lid is on the full stick, so it's not the blankets on top of the piano that are doing anything, it's the part of the blankets draped over the open lid that are doing something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
4. What is up with putting her in the corner, I mean doesn't the position of each instrument actually affect its acoustics?
They're in a control room, so space is tight. And she's got a gobo in front of her and she's right up on the mic, so her being in a corner isn't particularly problematic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
5. Why does everything sound so kind of mixed like... No distinct instruments but rather all sounds somehow blended. I can't describe what I mean lol all together melting together and echoing
Because it's real people playing music together, like you know... a real live band does! I love that this is blowing your mind, and I hope you really take something away from this! When great musicians play together, they create something that is greater than the sum of the individual parts. They balance and blend and react off of eachother. You can't get that same magic overdubbing every single instrument!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
6. What's up with so many diffusers ? Why? Why no absorbtion at all?! The hell...
That's the control room of a famous studio called Blackbird. Specifically it's the control room of their Studio C. In real life, more recordings happen in control rooms than one would think. I was assistant engineer for a big star and 95% of the vocals were recorded with them sitting on the couch in the control room with everyone on headphones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
This video weirds me out so much... what is going on here....
Since its George Massenburg sitting there I guess he knows what's he doing but still I have no clue what he's doing so if someone smarter than me could share his opinion would be very thankful!
He definitely knows what he's doing. The proof is in the pudding: what you hear is a really great recording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
Also definitely they compiled this out of many tries... IT wasn't done in one turn. You can even see the video cutting.

So, how can he mix stuff like that if he can't control each instrument seperately?

He can't just put her voice together with the previous instrumental recording since there would be some difference and other instruments from the previous recording would be heard in her vocals?!

He also can't just cut her voice and all the instruments and just attach the audio from the previous recording because there would be difference and would sound weird?!

Like... maybe he didnt even cut the song and all was done many times over until he got 1 time everything right and perfect. But that seems demanding!! Entire group of people hitting the right string at the right time througout the whole song... Isn't it easier to have them one by one recorded and then compiled?!

I have no clue I am just curious
Believe it or not, there are these people called professional session musicians, who practice regularly and make a living because they can read sheet music/charts on the spot in time, in tune and with great feel and touch. You get a whole room of them together and that's what you're hearing. If the engineer selects good mics, places them well, sets the band up in the right way in the room and sets conservative levels, he can sit back during tracking and simply enjoy being able to hear take after take of really solid, musical playing. I've been there many times and it doesn't feel like work at all.

I think what you're hearing is mostly likely a live take, not a frankenstein of different ones. The picture cutting just means they used multiple cameras. You clearly have not yet gotten to experience in person an ensemble like that. I strongly urge you to go to see the local symphony, big band, choir, jazz ensemble etc... you will be enlightened.
Old 11th May 2019
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Masseburg has another series of YT videos explaining various aspects of his approach to production. He's very big on full ensemble tracking, embracing the bleed, letting performers play off each other. Worth checking out.

If the bleed is good -- i.e. when everyone's in a good sounding room, and the microphones are forgiving in their off axis response -- then there's less reason to labor at minimizing it as much as possible. The only big limiting factor then, as you mentioned, is flexibility in punching after the fact. But Massenburg, and, say, Al Schmitt and other live-ensemble tracking experts, tend to have the luxury of recording performers that are good enough to not require endless punch-ins.
Old 11th May 2019
  #12
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andychamp's Avatar
I recently had the opportunity to hear G.M. talk about precisely this session. So here‘s what I can recall, in my words.
- The room is at Blackbird in Nashville, and was built for precisely this kind of scenario: everybody, including George, in one room. Looking at the size of the diffusors, you can tell that their effect reaches quite lower than your standard skyline. Dry rooms don‘t sound good, they just make it easier for recordists to isolate the sources.
- The singer is the focus, and her performance as well as the band‘s are what matter (see my sig. file), sound is much less of a consideration - although still on a very high level. There‘s no click track, the drummer „plays to the singer‘s phrasing“. She is isolated, in case they need to do punches, which was the case for a couple of sentences, IIRC.
- a particularly loud guitar amp was gobo‘d off more than usual, and the piano was probably covered to protect the piano mics from excessive bleed. Everyone still has headphones, and the phone mix is a very important part of the equation, as is the acoustic balance of the musicians in the room.
- when you produce with that much attention to arrangement and performance, what bleed is left becomes an non-issue.

That‘s what I recall, maybe other who were at the conference - like @ cheu78 - remember more/other details and care to chime in...
Old 11th May 2019
  #13
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PdotDdot's Avatar
I believe the room was designed by George Massnburg. It is a lot of wood pieces of different lengths popping out of the walls. A friend of mine has been there and said he felt almost sea sick after a while. The reason it sounds so good is because of a good quality tune being played by great session players in a well designed room with a really good engineer behind the controls and a woman with a very lovely voice.
Old 11th May 2019
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
Have you tried to listen to an orchestra with just one set of ears?
Yep, believe it or not music was being made thousands of years before the advent of recorded sound, and somehow it sounded good with all the musicians playing in the same room at the same time. Put skilled musicians in a good room and have them play a quality arrangement of a great song and all that’s left for the engineers to do is to not screw it up.
Old 11th May 2019
  #15
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PdotDdot View Post
I believe the room was designed by George Massnburg. It is a lot of wood pieces of different lengths popping out of the walls. A friend of mine has been there and said he felt almost sea sick after a while. The reason it sounds so good is because of a good quality tune being played by great session players in a well designed room with a really good engineer behind the controls and a woman with a very lovely voice.
I have been in that room.

You do feel a "pressure" on your ears or some kind of sucking feeling.

It's weird in there!

I forget how many pounds they said the diffusors weigh but it's a massive amount of material attached to those walls.
Old 11th May 2019
  #16
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
IN this video somehow they record all the instruments at once:
https://youtu.be/exQRfHbSwn0
1. How?
I just did it last Wednesday! For many of us, it's actually rather amusing that people think it's a "somehow" concept.
Quote:
2. Wouldn't each microphone there pick up the sound from standing near by instruments. For example I can imagine that every microphone picks up the sound of those drums and piano..
Sure, but a little bleed is not only OK, it can be desirable. The trick is to have it under control. It's not impossible to do if you put some thought and science into your placement and your gobos. Which they obviously have done. Also, I would say probably the only thing actually "loud" in that room are the drums. i would be more worried about electric guitars than the acoustic piano.
Quote:
.
3. Why would they put those blankets over piano?! I mean what can a blanket do to such strong sound waves?
quite a bit actually. It also looks to me like two layers of blankets there. Some acoustical blankets are even internally lined with mass-loaded vinyl.
Quote:
5. Why does everything sound so kind of mixed like... No distinct instruments but rather all sounds somehow blended. I can't describe what I mean lol all together melting together and echoing
A little bit of controlled bleed- which I am sure they were after. But the diffusion in the room is probably also contributory. And no doubt there must some actual reverb effect added in the mix.
Quote:
6. What's up with so many diffusers ? Why? Why no absorbtion at all?!
This is George Massenburg's room. I think it's one of a kind. Rather than a typical mixture of absorption and diffusion, it is 100% diffusion. Each rod is supposedly cut to a different length, even if they vary only by a millimeter or so. I read someone saying it felt like playing music outdoors in a dense forest.

Actually there is a little bit of foam in her 'booth'. And some behind the cello. And of course the gobos are big absorbers as well.

Quote:
Also definitely they compiled this out of many tries... IT wasn't done in one turn. You can even see the video cutting.
If you mean the cut at the end, where the camera goes from high looking down to low looking up, I bet that's the vocal punch mentioned in andychamp's post. That's an old trick to cover a punch, change the camera location. You can't see the band, so it's likely she is overdubbing on that particular line. If they did edit the band between takes. I would be surprised if the edits were exactly where you thought they were!

Quote:
This video weirds me out so much... what is going on here
....
What's going on is real musicians playing music live together, so freaking weird.
Old 11th May 2019
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I just did it last Wednesday! For many of us, it's actually rather amusing that people think it's a "somehow" concept.
Sure, but a little bleed is not only OK, it can be desirable. The trick is to have it under control. It's not impossible to do if you put some thought and science into your placement and your gobos. Which they obviously have done. Also, I would say probably the only thing actually "loud" in that room are the drums. i would be more worried about electric guitars than the acoustic piano.

quite a bit actually. It also looks to me like two layers of blankets there. Some acoustical blankets are even internally lined with mass-loaded vinyl.

A little bit of controlled bleed- which I am sure they were after. But the diffusion in the room is probably also contributory. And no doubt there must some actual reverb effect added in the mix.
This is George Massenburg's room. I think it's one of a kind. Rather than a typical mixture of absorption and diffusion, it is 100% diffusion. Each rod is supposedly cut to a different length, even if they vary only by a millimeter or so. I read someone saying it felt like playing music outdoors in a dense forest.

Actually there is a little bit of foam in her 'booth'. And some behind the cello. And of course the gobos are big absorbers as well.

If you mean the cut at the end, where the camera goes from high looking down to low looking up, I bet that's the vocal punch mentioned in andychamp's post. That's an old trick to cover a punch, change the camera location. You can't see the band, so it's likely she is overdubbing on that particular line. If they did edit the band between takes. I would be surprised if the edits were exactly where you thought they were!

....
What's going on is real musicians playing music live together, so freaking weird.
Throughout the video you can see her arms literally teleport from one position to another: https://youtu.be/exQRfHbSwn0?t=30

30th second.

So.. how

and really yes, for a noob like me, it was weird to see a studio without absorbtion
Old 12th May 2019
  #18
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vernier's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
IN this video somehow they record all the instruments at once:

https://youtu.be/exQRfHbSwn0


Now I have some questions:

1. How?
2. Wouldn't each microphone there pick up the sound from standing near by instruments. For example I can imagine that every microphone picks up the sound of those drums and piano...
3. Why would they put those blankets over piano?! I mean what can a blanket do to such strong sound waves?
4. What is up with putting her in the corner, I mean doesn't the position of each instrument actually affect its acoustics?
5. Why does everything sound so kind of mixed like... No distinct instruments but rather all sounds somehow blended. I can't describe what I mean lol all together melting together and echoing
6. What's up with so many diffusers ? Why? Why no absorbtion at all?! The hell...

This video weirds me out so much... what is going on here....
Since its George Massenburg sitting there I guess he knows what's he doing but still I have no clue what he's doing so if someone smarter than me could share his opinion would be very thankful!
It's how all recording was done up to the 70's, and beyond. Portable divider walls on wheels isolate the various musicians. Padding on piano is to quiet the piano in the room, but its in the headphones as it's picked up from close mics.

All in all, there's no mystery ...recording is using common sense.
Old 12th May 2019
  #19
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
Throughout the video you can see her arms literally teleport from one position to another: https://youtu.be/exQRfHbSwn0?t=30
since the shots of her do not include views of the other musicians, it is just as possible that the jump represents a vocal punch and not necessarily a full band edit. If she punches in. they can only only film her, because everyone else is not playing. They might have gone home, even.

Do you notice any spots where the band "teleports"?

Quote:
Also I know her personally I am just too afraid to embarrassed myself to ask her.
so I guess we'll never know...

Quote:
She said she was picky so it was not done in one go....
picky about her vocals? Or picky about the band takes?
Old 12th May 2019
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
since the shots of her do not include views of the other musicians, it is just as possible that the jump represents a vocal punch and not necessarily a full band edit. If she punches in. they can only only film her, because everyone else is not playing. They might have gone home, even.

Do you notice any spots where the band "teleports"?


so I guess we'll never know...


picky about her vocals? Or picky about the band takes?
Well I can see her definitely singing along with them at one point so there should be bleed of her voice in the instrumental tracks...

so if she re-did vocals again and sang something differently, wouldn't we hear the difference on the instrumental recordings because of the bleed?

Because...Obviously... if that is right what you say, recorded and embedded in the instrumentals would be >>> some of her voice from the initial recording. That vocal bleed in the instrumental tracks >>>> wouldn't match the second time she sang it so>>> we would hear the difference and two voices?!

Also, those diffusers don't asborb the energy from the soundwaves but rather break then or disperse them, wouldn't that lead to sound wave energy build up in the room and affect the way it sounds?
Old 12th May 2019
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
Well I can see her definitely singing along with them at one point so there should be bleed of her voice in the instrumental tracks...
But the question really is just how much bleed there'll be relative to the level of the instrument the mic is supposed to pick up. The drums for example will likely be waaay louder in the drum mics than the vocal bleed (and she's singing softly a lot of the time). So even if there's a tiny amount of bleed I'm not really sure we'd hear it during an overdub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
Also, those diffusers don't asborb the energy from the soundwaves but rather break then or disperse them, wouldn't that lead to sound wave energy build up in the room and affect the way it sounds?
There's probably quite a bit of additional absorption in that room though. Some of those gobos aren't diffusers but absorbers as far as I can tell. And then you have the wall treatment.
Old 12th May 2019
  #22
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Also, it's of course perfectly possible that what we're hearing is one good take but that the video editor used what they thought was the most pleasing visual content from the various takes; in other words it's not necessarily that we don't hear an audio edit (overdub) - it's that we see a video edit.
Old 12th May 2019
  #23
Lives for gear
Also realize they may have made the basic track playing all together, they may well have gone back later and replaced tracks with overdubs afterwards. A common trick I used with rock bands.
Old 12th May 2019
  #24
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thismercifulfate's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
Well I can see her definitely singing along with them at one point so there should be bleed of her voice in the instrumental tracks...
Uhh.. what instrument mics would pick up her soft singing, with her in the corner and behind a solid gobo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
so if she re-did vocals again and sang something differently, wouldn't we hear the difference on the instrumental recordings because of the bleed?
Not really. There was probably very little bleed in her vocal mic and absolutely zero vocal bleeding into any of the instrument mics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
Because...Obviously... if that is right what you say, recorded and embedded in the instrumentals would be >>> some of her voice from the initial recording. That vocal bleed in the instrumental tracks >>>> wouldn't match the second time she sang it so>>> we would hear the difference and two voices?!
You clearly have never done this type of recording before. The bleed isn’t anywhere as unwieldy as you are imagining it is in your hear. In the hands of a skilled engineer it is absolutely not a problem. Using careful mic selection, positioning the mics, baffling and positioning the difference instruments you can achieve very good separation without making any of the musicians feel separated. That’s how you record a lot of styles of music, like jazz, folk, bluegrass, classical etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
Also realize they may have made the basic track playing all together, they may well have gone back later and replaced tracks with overdubs afterwards. A common trick I used with rock bands.
I can almost guarantee you that with GM running things and this type of music that is absolutely not the case.

It’s kinda sad how there’s almost a general disbelief that a group of musicians could simultaneously play so well together and that a world-class engineer could capture it so skillfully. You guys lack imagination!
Old 12th May 2019
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thismercifulfate View Post
Uhh.. what instrument mics would pick up her soft singing, with her in the corner and behind a solid gobo?


Not really. There was probably very little bleed in her vocal mic and absolutely zero vocal bleeding into any of the instrument mics.


You clearly have never done this type of recording before. The bleed isn’t anywhere as unwieldy as you are imagining it is in your hear. In the hands of a skilled engineer it is absolutely not a problem. Using careful mic selection, positioning the mics, baffling and positioning the difference instruments you can achieve very good separation without making any of the musicians feel separated. That’s how you record a lot of styles of music, like jazz, folk, bluegrass, classical etc...


I can almost guarantee you that with GM running things and this type of music that is absolutely not the case.

It’s kinda sad how there’s almost a general disbelief that a group of musicians could simultaneously play so well together and that a world-class engineer could capture it so skillfully. You guys lack imagination!
Dude, I can guarantee you that at least the vocal was overdubbed.

Drums bleeding into your vocal mic? For sure there was. That's the kind of crap that makes a bad vocal recording. A gobo doesn't do much when it comes to drums.
Old 12th May 2019
  #26
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andychamp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
Dude, I can guarantee you that at least the vocal was overdubbed.

Drums bleeding into your vocal mic? For sure there was. That's the kind of crap that makes a bad vocal recording. A gobo doesn't do much when it comes to drums.
The panning shot from 1:40 shows just how well isolated the singer is from the band, all the goboS between her and the drummer (who isn‘t ecaxtly punishing his drums), and she‘s practically eating the mic.
I have no trouble believing that the session went down as stated and that we‘re hearing authentic results.
Now, about some of these video edits...
Old 12th May 2019
  #27
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
The panning shot from 1:40 shows just how well isolated the singer is from the band, all the goboS between her and the drummer (who isn‘t ecaxtly punishing his drums), and she‘s practically eating the mic.
I have no trouble believing that the session went down as stated and that we‘re hearing authentic results.
Now, about some of these video edits...
see... no wonder a noob like me got confused when even gurus on here can't figure it out.
Old 12th May 2019
  #28
Gear Maniac
 

Wasn't it just easier to connect them through headphones live with no delay and let them play in separate rooms with nice isolation so you eventually have separate nice clean tracks to work with?
Old 12th May 2019
  #29
Gear Maniac
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi_Ocd9IALc
like here... they separated singers from the orchestra and then just put headphones on their ears... easy
Old 12th May 2019
  #30
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andychamp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanWalk View Post
see... no wonder a noob like me got confused when even gurus on here can't figure it out.
I fail to see how you got from my statement to your conclusion...
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