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Not satisfied with vocals , suggestions
Old 11th May 2019
  #61
Deleted df98c51
Guest
Eqing the vocals does not get me anywhere, that is a problem. It never attains a full pop vocal sound . Always scratchy, or nasally.

I thought it was the ASIO drivers.

That is similar to the EQ pattern in the physical PA rack. EQ or Mic selection does almost nothing. If I record 1 line of something on the 1/4" reel, than 1 line in the DAW, same equipment sounds completely different. Why? Is there 1 extra set of compression or something?

I need to choose the keyboard breath preset or choir type, relayer it post for pitch fix with a vocoder. Then it sounds correct. The voice is more synthetic, than pathetic, but I'm picking my battles.
Old 11th May 2019
  #62
Quote:
Eqing the vocals does not get me anywhere, that is a problem. It never attains a full pop vocal sound . Always scratchy, or nasally.

I thought it was the ASIO drivers.
Ok, i have to reply!!!

You can only EQ what is there already. That is one of your many problems.. Your voice will some EQ edits will always be your voice,
So depending on how skilled you are and knowledgeable you are with EQ frequencies and hearing them, Eq is is piece of cake.
You listen to it and adjust accordingly. BUT, EQ will not make bad vocals good. You need to start with good vocals.

Also ASIO driver mode is NOT your problem. ASIO is a protocol for your sound card to communicate with your PC/ DAW. You need not blame that on your vocals.

What you need to understand is that if you are not happy with the sound htat you recorded, you need to Re-record it. also, your voice is your voice. If its nasaly, then it is what it is. . EQ will not make your voice automatically sound great.

What you can blame are these things: Just being honest...
Your recording techniques
Your experience
Your knowledge
Your skill levels
Your audio engineering
Your talent.
Your mixing
Your voice
Old 11th May 2019
  #63
Deleted df98c51
Guest
You want me to use other people I recorded? Its easier if I illustrate the point real quick.

No pluggins were active, so it don't matter what I drew in the picture box. I am at a firm position that a vocal should be recorded proper without plugging in gimmicks like that from the device.
Old 11th May 2019
  #64
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1971 View Post
You want me to use other people I recorded? Its easier if I illustrate the point real quick.

No pluggins were active, so it don't matter what I drew in the picture box. I am at a firm position that a vocal should be recorded proper without plugging in gimmicks like that from the device.
No thank you, i said what i needed to say. But htanks
Old 11th May 2019
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1971 View Post
You want me to use other people I recorded? Its easier if I illustrate the point real quick.

No pluggins were active, so it don't matter what I drew in the picture box. I am at a firm position that a vocal should be recorded proper without plugging in gimmicks like that from the device.
No thank you, i said what i needed to say.
All your answers are already in this thread
Old 11th May 2019
  #66
Deleted df98c51
Guest
I can play every instrument. Plenty of talent.

This is vocals post, just wait till "how do I make a drum sound like a drum".
Old 11th May 2019
  #67
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1971 View Post
I can play every instrument. Plenty of talent.

This is vocals post, just wait till "how do I make a drum sound like a drum".
Mashallah, Good for you..
You should have no problems recording great vocals with your 'plenty of talent then', so good luck.
Old 11th May 2019
  #68
Deleted df98c51
Guest
Hardwire, I am not getting the same basic start point to EQ. The video was nice. Again I need to know what he used to make the recording in the first place.

Like that guy in the reamping video I posted, he does not say how the voice was original recorded. Only his reamping of it.

What real world tool isolate the frequency bands like that? Fixed frequency? He uses it at 2:00 on. Flipping to hear only a specific 10k area. What is that in real life? My rack MEQ 230 cannot isolate like that. What they did simulates the condition.
Old 11th May 2019
  #69
Deleted df98c51
Guest
I used an SM7B in some of my recordings.

Look man, Im not at the basic sound yet in the DAW. Its a cheap scratchy type of recording, no matter what microphone is used, what person sings, what eq values set(I can make it worse).
Old 11th May 2019
  #70
Deleted df98c51
Guest
What real life Eq band goes to negative infinity? Mine is +12/-12. The PA mixer does +18/-18.

That is why the vocoder is better, I can filter bank frequencies to -inf to cut the band out. Then replace it with something better.
Old 11th May 2019
  #71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted df98c51 View Post
Show me a video where the person comes to the microphone with a scratch sound, out of the box. Then show me how to improve. I am not getting any wisdom from a video that is at a quality recording to start. Show what improvements, make what differences.
Doesn't make sense, because everyone vocals is different. What someone does to his or her vocals after its recorded will be different to what you need to do.

Your problem is you need to change the way you are thinking. Its not a button or setting that makes vocals sound great. Its the person singing and recording and mixing it.
But you think there is some magic video or setting that you are missing. What you are missing is the big picture. You are in your own way and if you do not recognize that, you will not be able to solve your problem.

Watch and learn how to record and mix and you will learn how to record great vocals. All answers are in this thread. Take a year and hone your skills. Maybe even 2 or 3 years..
Old 11th May 2019
  #72
Deleted df98c51
Guest
CJ, sit the **** down.

I am able to do more with the tools I understand. If there is a component I am not using, that seems to make all the difference.

Would you like to recommend an EQ that goes to -inf? It seems to be important in shaping the sound, no? That dude used the Fabfilter I think.
Old 11th May 2019
  #73
Quote:
CJ, sit the **** down.
You do not like the TRUTH. LOL... Truth hurts as i can see

Thats your other problem. you cannot see the truth and your skin is to thin to take the truth.

There is no button or setting to make your vocals sound great. Only your voice and skills can do that..

Maybe take up auto repair
Old 11th May 2019
  #74
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1971 View Post
Hardwire, I am not getting the same basic start point to EQ. The video was nice. Again I need to know what he used to make the recording in the first place.

Like that guy in the reamping video I posted, he does not say how the voice was original recorded. Only his reamping of it.

What real world tool isolate the frequency bands like that? Fixed frequency? He uses it at 2:00 on. Flipping to hear only a specific 10k area. What is that in real life? My rack MEQ 230 cannot isolate like that. What they did simulates the condition.
I can't isolate like that either = it doesn't matter - any graphic eq will get the same basic results although some will add in a bit of colouration - although that is very minor.

You said your chain is: "My voice NT-1 pop guard,blanket cage, preamp Aphex tubescence, compressor Aphex Compellor, 6i6, 48k. Should be completely transformerless into the 6i6 line in 3 and 4."

I'd start by going mic to 6i6, with no plugins, eq, etc active in your DAW – and see how that sounds. There are lots of people making great sounding vocals with just that and some eq/compression in the box. If that doesn't work and it really is the ASIO drivers - switch to a Mac. Seriously.

If the sound is 'reasonable' - ie not too far off but needs tweaking, then add in the preamp and see if that sounds better or worse or the same. Then add just a touch of your compressor. Better, worse or the same?

Then work with the EQ in your DAW. Start by taking out low rumble (low cut up to about 100), then probably somewhere around 300 or 400 you'll need to cut a couple of DB, and boost down around 100. Then add a bit of presence in the 4K range.

Advanced move:

If you really want to fatten it up, triple the vocal track - singing it again two more times exactly the same way. Works for Dave Grohl (from what I've read.) That's done in a lot of pop tracks.
Old 11th May 2019
  #75
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardwire View Post
I can't isolate like that either = it doesn't matter - any graphic eq will get the same basic results although some will add in a bit of colouration - although that is very minor.

You said your chain is: "My voice NT-1 pop guard,blanket cage, preamp Aphex tubescence, compressor Aphex Compellor, 6i6, 48k. Should be completely transformerless into the 6i6 line in 3 and 4."

I'd start by going mic to 6i6 and seeing how that sounds. There are lots of people making great sounding vocals with just that. If that doesn't work and it really is the ASIO drivers - switch to a Mac. Seriously.
I doubt that switching to a Mac will help this guy. He's either trolling for attention or he should take CJ's advice and take up auto repair.
Old 11th May 2019
  #76
Deleted df98c51
Guest
My chain changes with the time of day currently, as Im searching.

I even used my headphones as the microphones.

Here Hardwire makes a nice point. If I ditch all the analog gear in the racks, use the mic's and the 6i6 only, then it sounds much different. Dry. Then I would need a bunch of puggins to get a sound closer to what I want. I havent tried this yet. I havent got to pluggins. I got the ReapComp , and ReaEQ in the software, and isntalled the 6i6 bundle. I cannot wait to play around with.

When I start to effect the mix the way I looking to, I will know what is not right.

EZ mix or something melodyn-ish might work nicely with MIDI support.

ASIO and ASIO 4 All. So I am just leaving it on ASIO 4 ALL right now. And the largest packet size for better detail. The 6i6 is recognized when I plug it in the USB, so it says no problems, device operating properly. That way the keyboard the Scarlett 6i6 and the Roland and TC thing can be used together. Otherwise they are not available as inputs. Nothing is using the version of ASIO they came with..
Old 11th May 2019
  #77
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jammiedodger666 View Post
I doubt that switching to a Mac will help this guy. He's either trolling for attention or he should take CJ's advice and take up auto repair.
He'd probably blame henry ford for a flat tyre
Old 11th May 2019
  #78
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammiedodger666 View Post
I doubt that switching to a Mac will help this guy. He's either trolling for attention or he should take CJ's advice and take up auto repair.
I'm going with giving the benefit of the doubt - I've seen so many times when people (perhaps even myself) throw a bunch of stuff at a project hoping that's the cure because they see videos or live examples of people doing just that. But without building the chain piece by piece and checking to see if there's improvement at each step – it can become a real mess.

Every time I wind up with a mess, I tear it back down to the bare bones and build it back up a piece at a time – it gets way better.

I'm a commercial photographer and teach photography, and when I see someone throw up a bunch of lights because that's what some celeb photographer did - it looks like a mess and they don't even know why. I get them to start with just one light and learn how moving it a few inches can make someone look skinny or fat.
Old 11th May 2019
  #79
Deleted df98c51
Guest
My chain gets complex too. Mic - Aphex preamp- Aphex compressor-Gate-To 16CH mixer, then A Compressor is on insert 1, A Eq on insert 2. PCM 90 is in the FX return. Balanced +4.

The setup is like the picture shows in the manual for a stereo 8 track rig. Mackie 16Ch mixer.

Using no analog rack equipment, it gets better. I'm going to explore this way today. The rack stuff is great live, but might be getting in the way of the DAW.

Here is another singing, perhaps he is better to you.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17rV...ew?usp=sharing
This is only the 6i6 and the DAW's mixer. The instruments are provided by a line 6 toneport's VST presets. Drums are Fantom X tappy pads. The vocal effects are the ReaComp and the ReaVerb, provided by bundled pluggins . Dave Grohl style doubled voices layered unison, or close as he could get.

Isolated vocal and tappy drums. No plugs , nothing but 6i6. This has the mic further away, than when I sing lips touching the screen.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qLi...ew?usp=sharing

What does it sound like I am doing wrong?
Old 12th May 2019
  #80
Deleted df98c51
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardwire View Post
Every time I wind up with a mess, I tear it back down to the bare bones and build it back up a piece at a time – it gets way better.

.
Right, I need to try something different.
At the end of post 44, a person mentions that all analog is much better than cheap digital. That is probably the answer. A better interface.

You can tell I cannot wait to get a solid vocal sound. I like my guitar, bass, keys and pads. Then I will try a whole song. These are 20-30 second warm ups. Fun to screw around too. The pro sound , to me sounds more vocoded. That is the only way I am able to isolate specific bands and replace them.
Old 12th May 2019
  #81
Deleted df98c51
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
No question that all analogue is better than cheap digital, and the tape compression is probably doing something that you like to your less than stellar mic.
Here is a quick jam , using only my analog equipment. The tape is converted to mp3, but I don't think that MP3 vs. Wav makes the difference. Tell me if you think the recording quality is better? It dos something to it. I do not have the vocabulary to explain.

Using 1/4" Ampex. RCA to CD burner. then Win10 media player rips the CD to MP3. Something is left behind in the conversion but overall there is more.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n29...ew?usp=sharing
Old 12th May 2019
  #82
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1971 View Post
Here is a quick jam , using only my analog equipment. The tape is converted to mp3, but I don't think that MP3 vs. Wav makes the difference. Tell me if you think the recording quality is better? It dos something to it. I do not have the vocabulary to explain.

Using 1/4" Ampex.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n29...ew?usp=sharing
The barebones 6i6 did sound better than the previous examples I heard. What I'm hearing between the digital/analogue version is that the tape has way less high frequencies - which is very typical of tape. Engineers used to boost the highs a lot to compensate then when it went digital it was treble hell. There is also a bit of built in compression on tape.

First just to make sure: those are the same mics on both examples?

Assuming they are, then on the digital I'd start with light eq - do a high frequency shelf dropping 2 or 3 db and sweep down from the highest freq to where it sounds reasonable. Then I'd add a bit of compression, probably 2:1 ratio and set the threshold to where it's just knocking off the loudest bits by 4 or 5 db. Slower attack and longer release. See how that sounds. Adjust to taste but only a bit at a time and compare to previous to make sure you're actually improving - its super easy to go way overboard.
Old 12th May 2019
  #83
Deleted df98c51
Guest
Ok great. Is there a point where i would set the low cut and hi cuts? 300 low cut and 16k hi or something. Or am I only bringing it down a bit not a full cut at the extremes? Hump or utility knife shape? I am doing low cuts, I will start look at the high side.

No, they are different microphones. Different friend singing too. We all play together and trade ideas about it. I thought it was more basic problem than selecting microphones. With the EQ in the DAW so much more is possible.

I want to record our jam sessions better. I tell ya I got a head full of ideas. Im gonna tear it down and start from scratch. Try another way.

How many times are you compressing in your chain? Once , twice, three times in a row? Listen to Carly Rae Jespen or Selena Gomez. That has to be compressed over and over. Tha is not a EQ gain boost or isolation. I am also positive I hear vocoding, accents to the chorus and orther parts.

Would you ever EQ it twice? 2 low cuts or more, or at each point. Mic has a cut, preamp has a low cut, mixer, EQ of coarse.
Old 12th May 2019
  #84
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1971 View Post
My chain changes with the time of day currently, as Im searching.

I even used my headphones as the microphones.

Here Hardwire makes a nice point. If I ditch all the analog gear in the racks, use the mic's and the 6i6 only, then it sounds much different. Dry. Then I would need a bunch of puggins to get a sound closer to what I want. I havent tried this yet. I havent got to pluggins. I got the ReapComp , and ReaEQ in the software, and isntalled the 6i6 bundle. I cannot wait to play around with.

When I start to effect the mix the way I looking to, I will know what is not right.

EZ mix or something melodyn-ish might work nicely with MIDI support.

ASIO and ASIO 4 All. So I am just leaving it on ASIO 4 ALL right now. And the largest packet size for better detail. The 6i6 is recognized when I plug it in the USB, so it says no problems, device operating properly. That way the keyboard the Scarlett 6i6 and the Roland and TC thing can be used together. Otherwise they are not available as inputs. Nothing is using the version of ASIO they came with..
Why aren't you using the ASIO driver that comes with the 6i6? That's the one that Focusrite recommends you use. I have a 6i6 that I use for remote recording with my laptop. I've had no issues and I get great sounding vocals with either the built in preamps, or an external.
Old 12th May 2019
  #85
Deleted df98c51
Guest
It says there is an error with the Fantom or other device then , and there is no sound from it. If I only used a 6i6 that would work , but there is othere hardware. SEe pic.https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sKh...ew?usp=sharing

With ASIO 4 ALL every device continues to work after the inital error message in Reaper.

Fantom X -Synth , midi guide, drum machine
6i6
toneport line 6 guitar modeler
Voicelive rack USB
VG-99 USB
Roland sequencer ..that never works. I end up chaining them in the rack thru's MIDI. Master , slave , slave, slave..
Old 12th May 2019
  #86
Deleted df98c51
Guest
Recently I just found out you have to restart Reaper when you change Midi devices. It does not say that in the help section. That might solve the no sound after change issue.

I also had a specific break up condition, where it would cut out like a gate at overload. Not saturate or drive with gain. I could not push the fader up. I will post an example if I can find it.
Old 13th May 2019
  #87
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Sybille's Avatar
 

I didn't read everything, but it appears to me you need to work with easier gear, so you would get to your goal much more effortlessly.

For example a UAD card and Logic. Straight to the point, and with UAD tracking plugins, you can literally transform your vocals. Raw vocals always sucks, there's a reason so many people buy analog stuff to get specific types of saturation.

The more you saturate on the way in, the beefier the sound, transients get smooth, nasality is less prominent, I think you need a good recording chain. Like the correct mic and then a good coloured preamp / coloured comps and maybe a tape emulation.

My tracking chain changes more my vocals than any EQ I can ever try. It's all about tone / saturation / smoothness.
Old 13th May 2019
  #88
Deleted df98c51
Guest
That sounds great. UAD Card logic is a system? Not a USB interface or it will be the upgrade from the 6i6?


Ok , I might be screwing up. These companies are advertising that smaller packet sizes = better quality. Damn. I thought it was larger to hold more detail. I will try smaller cache packets with the quality slider bar.

The UAD-2 and Apollo, the video demos look promising. However not getting anywhere near the demo is a reoccuring problem of mine.

I am recording my jams and things, so the 6i6 is working to some extent. I want something nicer. I still think the 1/4" example 'Lil wing' sounds much fuller, and picks up the quieter nuance of the performance.

PLease answer

How many times are you compressing your vocals? I do twice in row. All these.

How many times are you low cutting? I do twice, at preamp and 16CH mixer. 3x times if there is a cut switch on the mic.

How many times in a line are you EQ-ing? again I do twice . The mixer is flat usually and then the insert EQ.
Old 13th May 2019
  #89
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1971 View Post
No, they are different microphones. Different friend singing too. We all play together and trade ideas about it. I thought it was more basic problem than selecting microphones. With the EQ in the DAW so much more is possible.
In my experience - the best way to figure out what works and what doesn't is to work on one variable at a time.

Different mic, different singer, different system - different results.

Without the majority of your workflow being consistent you never know what actually made a difference.

You want to reamp your vocals without getting the basic workflow down pat first? What a waste of time.
Old 13th May 2019
  #90
Deleted df98c51
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardwire View Post
Different mic, different singer, different system - different results.

Without the majority of your workflow being consistent you never know what actually made a difference.

.
Thats not true. I cataloged the track. Microphone, person singing, presets, in most cases what I did differently is noted.

I will get it sooner or later. I was thinking somebody would be at the same general recording stump. They could offer a try this , it worked for me.

Analog.mp3 to me sounds way better. Than any of the heavily effected 6i6 recordings. I did not use anything FX. So there is something going on reel to reel I really like.

I luv analog 3000
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