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Different Sound from DAW and Windows
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
Different Sound from DAW and Windows

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone else experienced that what they export from their DAW sounds different in Windows Media Player/VLC/Whatever?

I would not even call it subtle.
I usualls export into .wav files.
Old 1 week ago
  #2
Gear Nut
 

Off the top of my head, my guess would be your DAW using ASIO and Windows... not.
Old 1 week ago
  #3
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Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 

You probably either:

1) Are listening back using an app that has an EQ, or some other processing engaged

2) Are listening back at a diff level

Export your wav file back into your DAW. At the same s.rate and b.depth as your project. Ensuring that you are monitoring the newly created .wav file at the same level as you were monitoring your project, does the newly created .wav file sound the same while playing it back from inside your DAW?
Old 1 week ago
  #4
Gear Head
Check the WAV using another player.
Old 6 days ago
  #5
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CJ Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wnb View Post
Hello,

I was wondering if anyone else experienced that what they export from their DAW sounds different in Windows Media Player/VLC/Whatever?

I would not even call it subtle.
I usually export into .wav files.
If your exported mix from your DAW sounds different. Its either these 2 thnigs
1. Your exporting settings (not selecting your main outs as source or something like that)
2. The playback system like WMP/VLC have sound settings, like EQand sound enhancement
Quote:
Off the top of my head, my guess would be your DAW using ASIO and Windows... not.
Driver modes, like ASIO and WDM do not effect the way things sound. If your driver settings are not configured correctly, then you can get artifacts, like pops and crackles and drop-outs, but it doesn't effect the way things sound
Old 6 days ago
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
YourBestFriend's Avatar
driver modes do affect the sound. foobar can use asio and also other audio engines that are better or worse. vlc doesnt have unity gain it goes to 100 percent and even more. use foobar with the asio plug in.. check you control panel audio settings make sure your set to 'studio quality' or similar
Old 6 days ago
  #7
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CJ Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
driver modes do affect the sound.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but driver modes (ASIO/WDM) are applications used for communication between your audio interface and DAW or playback system. It will not enhance your sound or change your sound.

The ONLY way a driver mode effects sound if its set up incorrectly and you will have pops and crackles. Im just repeating what i worte above
Old 6 days ago
  #8
Gear Addict
Smile

Install player with asio driver. For example:

AIMP Free Music Player - Download AIMP 3

Afaik, sound goes directly from player to card's DA

Don't forget to disable all onboard player's sound settings. Push volume to 100%.
Old 5 days ago
  #9
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CJ Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
'That's the reason why ASIO was popularized, to get away from the crappy Windows Kmixer kernel that mangled sound like a testicular vice.
Steinberg developed ASIO (Audio stream I/O) to bypass the truly terrible Windows NT 5.x Kmixer kernel. When ASIO was released the pro audio community jumped on ASIO...'

I can hear a major difference. Maybe your the type that doesnt believe in speaker break in either,
LOL OMG
Sound card drivers do not change your sound in your DAW. Its a fact. drivers are a protocol written for your audio interface to communicate with your playback system. If they are set up incorrectly, you will get artifacts, but they do not what so ever effect the sound quality of your music.

Are you read y for school?
to prove you are DEAD WRONG, export a song using ASIO and WDM driver modes with correct settings and with drivers that support your system. The sound quality will not change in the audio.
Dropping my DAMN MIC LMFAO
Old 5 days ago
  #10
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by dibravibra View Post
Install player with asio driver. For example:

AIMP Free Music Player - Download AIMP 3

Afaik, sound goes directly from player to card's DA

Don't forget to disable all onboard player's sound settings. Push volume to 100%.
This actually did the trick, sounds the same now in the player and the daw.
However this means that Windows Media Player and VLC must somehow have different settings or sth? Never changed them.
Old 5 days ago
  #11
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Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBestFriend View Post
'That's the reason why ASIO was popularized, to get away from the crappy Windows Kmixer kernel that mangled sound like a testicular vice.
Steinberg developed ASIO (Audio stream I/O) to bypass the truly terrible Windows NT 5.x Kmixer kernel. When ASIO was released the pro audio community jumped on ASIO...'
Testicular vice? Did you really have to go there?

As far as I know, SB dev'd ASIO ('97, I think?) to provide lower latency than the standard Win driver, to improve efficiency of processing and throughput, and to serve as an open technology which could be used by any manufacturer.

If you feel that they dev'd it to bypass the "truly terrible Windows NT 5.x Kmixer kernel", and b/c the Win kernel mangled sound, ok, you are entitled to feel that way. Wondering, however, if you have any data to back those statements up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBestFriend View Post
I can hear a major difference. Maybe your the type that doesnt believe in speaker break in either,
A diff between what? Audio played through ASIO and audio played through the standard Win sound driver? No way.

Cheers.
Old 5 days ago
  #12
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBestFriend View Post
I can hear a major difference. Maybe your the type that doesnt believe in speaker break in either,
You can hear a major difference between what, exactly?
Old 5 days ago
  #13
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBestFriend View Post
That would be a randomly selected quote with no reference to the source. I can find more to support what my ears definitely hear.
So, you're using a random quote from an unnamed source to support your opinion?
Old 5 days ago
  #14
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Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBestFriend View Post
That would be a randomly selected quote with no reference to the source.
Well, you ain't my best friend anymore, sorry.
Old 5 days ago
  #15
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
Okay guys I searched google once the term "WASAPI" fell and I found following explaination:

Quote:
The difference between ASIO/WASAPI and DS is that DS always use the Win mixer.
All audio is dithered by the mixer.
If the sample rate of the audio differs from the one set in the sound panel, it will be resampled.

ASIO/WASAPI (exclusive) will bypass the mixer.
No dither and no resampling if the hardware is able to play the sample rate of the audio.
This is about the protocol. The media player might do all kind of DSP like volume control + dither.
Is this fine for everyone?
And.. should I probably just mix down with direct sound then? Given that most of the people will listen that way?
Old 5 days ago
  #16
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
Testicular vice? Did you really have to go there?

As far as I know, SB dev'd ASIO ('97, I think?) to provide lower latency than the standard Win driver, to improve efficiency of processing and throughput, and to serve as an open technology which could be used by any manufacturer.

If you feel that they dev'd it to bypass the "truly terrible Windows NT 5.x Kmixer kernel", and b/c the Win kernel mangled sound, ok, you are entitled to feel that way. Wondering, however, if you have any data to back those statements up?


A diff between what? Audio played through ASIO and audio played through the standard Win sound driver? No way.

Cheers.
They've quoted it from here: ASIO / WASAPI , Windows10 : headphones

There were issues with KMixer although not related to sound, quote: "KMixer doesn't alter the sound in the majority of cases.[5]"

Also any "supposed" issues were sorted out in ME, a lot of playback software even back in Win98 never even used it..

Windows legacy audio components - Wikipedia

From my own experiences (or what I remember) the major issues with Kmixer was latency (which was horrible, something like 30ms) hence the need for ASIO. When we got into the realms of WASAPI / Wave RT port driver even that became less of an issue..

There were issues in Vista? Where sample rate changes with MME caused noise, but of course that got fixed as well.

To the op in short no, don't worry about it..

Although if you're going from a 64-bit summing mixer to a 16-bit compressed .MP3 with dither yeah it will sound different.. As for lossless formats, it's going to be volume..
Old 5 days ago
  #17
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CJ Mastering's Avatar
So in short, there is no sound difference with driver modes (ASIO/WDM). If you hear a difference, then its not your driver mode. Its a setting you set up incorrectly or have not set up or is set up without you knowing it.

Sound card drivers is a Protocol for allowing your sound card to communicate with your DAW/playback system. If you hear artifacts form your driver mode selection, this means 2 things:
1.) You do not have the latest drivers for your Operating System
2.) You do not have it configured correctly to get optimal performance.
Old 5 days ago
  #18
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wnb View Post
Okay guys I searched google once the term "WASAPI" fell and I found following explaination:



Is this fine for everyone?
And.. should I probably just mix down with direct sound then? Given that most of the people will listen that way?
I would say "no" because you cant control the settings that every individual may set in their media player of choice so there really wouldn't be much point.
Old 4 days ago
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
YourBestFriend's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 64gtoboy View Post
I would say "no" because you cant control the settings that every individual may set in their media player of choice so there really wouldn't be much point.
That is horrible mentality. Maybe all music should be in mp3 because most cant tell the difference. For me that would mean hell because mp3 sounds like riddled butt juice with a lack of air. It would mean everyone would be fat and ugly because everyone else was fat and ugly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
So in short, there is no sound difference with driver modes (ASIO/WDM). If you hear a difference, then its not your driver mode. Its a setting you set up incorrectly or have not set up or is set up without you knowing it.

Sound card drivers is a Protocol for allowing your sound card to communicate with your DAW/playback system. If you hear artifacts form your driver mode selection, this means 2 things:
1.) You do not have the latest drivers for your Operating System
2.) You do not have it configured correctly to get optimal performance.
2. If your audio settings in the windows control panel are set to a different sample rate and bit depth than what the original file is, then windows mixer will cause bit imperfections and dithering. This is why I find asio to be my preferred choice.
Old 4 days ago
  #20
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CJ Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
2. If your audio settings in the windows control panel are set to a different sample rate and bit depth than what the original file is, then windows mixer will dither and cause bit imperfections. This is why I find asio to be my preferred choice.
When recording, mixing and mastering music, Your audio interface Does NOT use the window mixer. Meaning its not used. Never, EVER! Example: MOTU uses the Cue MIX. RME uses Total MIX, Focusrite uses something similar to cue mix. The list goes on and on.

Always Referring to the windows mixer when people are recording and doing music production is meaningless.

FYI, sample rate has nothing to do with dithering, as you keep mentioning it
Old 4 days ago
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
YourBestFriend's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
When recording, mixing and mastering music, Your audio interface Does NOT use the window mixer. Meaning its not used. Never, EVER! Example: MOTU uses the Cue MIX. RME uses Total MIX, Focusrite uses something similar to cue mix. The list goes on and on.

Always Referring to the windows mixer when people are recording and doing music production is meaningless.

FYI, sample rate has nothing to do with dithering, as you keep mentioning it

Ive been reading elsewhere about windows resampling issues and how asio would avoid the problem. I didnt think about interfaces avoiding the issue all together. Im using the digital out on my motherboard and do have the option to use the dithered, bit imperfect, windows ds.
Old 4 days ago
  #22
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBestFriend View Post
Ive been reading elsewhere about windows resampling issues and how asio would avoid the problem. I didnt think about interfaces avoiding the issue all together. Im using the digital out on my motherboard and do have the option to use the dithered, bit imperfect, windows ds.
Dithers low level noise is 90 dB below the music, so if you do hear a notable difference between a truncated / dithered 16-bit WAV, it's not due to dither.
Old 4 days ago
  #23
Gear Maniac
 
YourBestFriend's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdFrixion View Post
Dithers low level noise is 90 dB below the music, so if you do hear a notable difference between a truncated / dithered 16-bit WAV, it's not due to dither.
There must be something else going on. I should probably cut back on my unscientific opinions. I do think there are many measurements that cant be made, or described. An old worn in baseball glove would probably register the same as a new baseball glove according to the overly clinical measurements of some
Old 4 days ago
  #24
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBestFriend View Post
There must be something else going on. I should probably cut back on my unscientific opinions. I do think there are many measurements that cant be made, or described. An old worn in baseball glove would probably register the same as a new baseball glove according to the overly clinical measurements of some
Forget measurements. Simply create two samples, a 24-bit WAV and a truncated 16-bit (dithered) WAV, and use ABX to conduct your own blind tests.
Old 4 days ago
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
YourBestFriend's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdFrixion View Post
Forget measurements. Simply create two samples, a 24-bit WAV and a truncated 16-bit (dithered) WAV, and use ABX to conduct your own blind tests.
Ive done that, it looses its 'sheen'
Old 4 days ago
  #26
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CJ Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Ive done that, it looses its 'sheen'
Maybe we can get to the bottom of what is going on with your set-up and solve this mystery for you. The 24bit file should sound just like the 16bit file.

In order for you to hear any kind of dithering. You would need to export a blank track with dithering on it and then turn the volume way way way up.
any dither Pow 1,2 & 3's will not take the sheen off your music. if anything, it will make them warmer, if you can really hear any of the dither. Dihter is just a very very low level noise used to cover up any mistakes with the 110101001001010100's when converting to 16bit.
Its such a low noise that it doesn't effect the sound quality.
Old 4 days ago
  #27
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBestFriend View Post
Ive done that, it looses its 'sheen'
I'd be glad to post some samples and let you try your hand at identifying the one that's dithered.
Old 4 days ago
  #28
Gear Maniac
 
YourBestFriend's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdFrixion View Post
I'd be glad to post some samples and let you try your hand at identifying the one that's dithered.
do it, make me eat my own words.
Old 4 days ago
  #29
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBestFriend View Post
do it, make me eat my own words.
Of the samples below, please identify which one / ones are not dithered.
Attached Files

Sample 1.wav (2.83 MB, 99 views)

Sample 2.wav (2.83 MB, 86 views)

Sample 3.wav (2.83 MB, 80 views)

Sample 4.wav (2.83 MB, 84 views)

Old 4 days ago
  #30
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CJ Mastering's Avatar
I cant tell, but good guitar playing. But, for fun, ill guess its 2 and 3
Topic:
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