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Led Zeppelin I sound Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 22nd April 2018
  #31
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Some one is blowing smoke up your ass bigtime, and you're letting them.
Unless someone is paying you big money to do this,
you are chasing a phantom menace, a demon in disguise and a direct invitation to hell.
These tones are not ever going to be replicated, Jimmy himself would tell you to take the sounds you have and take them somewhere you and they have never been, revisiting the past is never productive or enlightening except if you are already living it.
It's the 21st century for fvcks sake...
Enjoy the records and marvel at the miracles of the time, but you're chasing a reality that will never exist again....

YYMV

Light

Temple
Old 22nd April 2018
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light View Post
Some one is blowing smoke up your ass bigtime, and you're letting them.
Unless someone is paying you big money to do this,
you are chasing a phantom menace, a demon in disguise and a direct invitation to hell.
These tones are not ever going to be replicated, Jimmy himself would tell you to take the sounds you have and take them somewhere you and they have never been, revisiting the past is never productive or enlightening except if you are already living it.
It's the 21st century for fvcks sake...
Enjoy the records and marvel at the miracles of the time, but you're chasing a reality that will never exist again....

YYMV

Light

Temple
I believe the OP has to do this for a school project in some sort of sound engineering program. So he is getting graded on just how close he can get it.
Old 22nd April 2018
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo View Post
That's why I said studying the multitracks is the only way to understand the recordings. Reading about a recording is simply not nearly as educational as breaking it apart and studying it.
Even then that can be deceiving...

A lot of those multitrack are recorded off the mixing console as they mix the 2track. They did that a lot to make a "backup of the mix". So while it can help, it doesn't tell the whole story.

You have to listen to the multi-track to determine if it's just a multitrack capture of the mix down onto an additional tape machine or if it is actually the multi track that they used to mix from.

I have some of the zeppelin multitrack, as well as queen, boston, stevie wonder, jackson 5, and a few others.

Some of the multi tracks you just push the faders up to 0dB and it's pretty much the final mix minus reverb and sometimes delay. Other multi tracks sound nothing even remotely close to the final mix (like the queen multi tracks) and you will have to spend some time trying to match the final mix including recreating all the EQ settings.

In asking around as to why that was... the response I got from some of the guys who mixed some of these albums was that they ran a "master" multitrack capture of the mix (similar to us making stems today of mixes), that way if they ever needed to go back to the mix, they wouldn't have to recreate it from scratch... they would have a tape with all their EQ and volume moves recorded and they would just have to add verb and/or delay to get it back to the original mix and then do whatever changes needed to be made from there.

I just point this out so people know, sometimes the multi track IS the mix, sometimes the multi track is what they used to mix from... for me, it was more of a learning tool to get the multi tracks that they used to mix from... so you can hear how they had to treat the instruments... like on Bohemian rhapsody by Queen, hearing the piano and guitars on the multi track and then hearing the piano and guitars in the final mix, it's mind blowing to hear what Roy Thomas Baker, Mike Stone, Gary Lyons and Geoff Workman had to work with. And the multitrack that exists in protools today is not the original multi tracks. They recorded the song in three pieces on three separate tapes and Gary Langan had to piece the three together into one final composite master of the song.
Old 22nd April 2018
  #34
I have a Joy Division one thats like that. Pretty much just keep all the faders at 0 and voila, Love Will Tear Us Apart. Didn't stop me from messing with it and doing a couple "remixes" for myself though haha.
Old 23rd April 2018
  #35
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Led I was the very first record I ever heard at 8 years old, I know how it sounds by heart.
I saw the reason the OP stated it's a supremely expensive endeavor to even get close...
Why burden a student with more debt than his whole college education would be to try and replicate an impossibly difficult task?
Even modern gear and gifted skills wont even begin to get close.
I would not spend the time or even the thought to even attempt this.
Anyone who is suggesting otherwise is seriously lacking in one faculty.

YYMV

Light

Temple
Old 23rd April 2018
  #36
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Dr. Mordo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
what do you mean by myth? how they miced his kit?
Every conceivable aspect of Bonham's studio recordings has been mythologized. From the heads he used, to the drum sizes, to the number and types of mics used, to how hard he hits the drums. There's so much misinformation out there it's incredible. The Bonham biography is a decent source for info, but besides that I suggest that spending a few hours experimenting with micing a big drumkit in the studio is worth far more than one could ever glean from one of these threads. And, like I said, studying the multitracks is enormously helpful (though I do agree wit the observations above that sometimes they are not a multitrack that represents the final mix).
Old 23rd April 2018
  #37
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BazzBass's Avatar
lol at people who believe what Page says. Ever asked a junkie what he did 30 years ago? apart from china white, nothing !

"I dated a 12 year old, really?"
Old 23rd April 2018
  #38
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Recording the second album, I believe:

Old 23rd April 2018
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo View Post
Every conceivable aspect of Bonham's studio recordings has been mythologized. From the heads he used, to the drum sizes, to the number and types of mics used, to how hard he hits the drums. There's so much misinformation out there it's incredible. The Bonham biography is a decent source for info, but besides that I suggest that spending a few hours experimenting with micing a big drumkit in the studio is worth far more than one could ever glean from one of these threads. And, like I said, studying the multitracks is enormously helpful (though I do agree wit the observations above that sometimes they are not a multitrack that represents the final mix).
+1 for this!

i remember an interview in modern drummer: the journalist was absolutely shocked to hear this massive sound with bonzo laying down a beat on his much smaller drumkit at his home...
Old 25th April 2018
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by BazzBass View Post
lol at people who believe what Page says. Ever asked a junkie what he did 30 years ago? apart from china white, nothing !

"I dated a 12 year old, really?"
A little uncalled for.

I know he dated a teenage model (I think she was a little older!!!???)...which ain't cool, but the "junkie" part?

I suppose you are completely without flaws, sins, or other proverbial demons?

Where can I download your sonic equivalent to LZ IV?
Or any of their records?

Take the insults to the moan zone please. This thread is about a student trying to learn for a class project. These dudes helped shape rock music as we know it.

Who's next? Every classic rock artist from that era?
Beatles? Stones?... They all did that at some point.
Don't bother asking them, their producers, or engineers nuthin' cuz they were too stoned to remember?

It's a double edged sword. Sure...they did that. And for better or worse some good music came from it. Not condoning, just pointing out an obvious fact.

Music from that era? On charts upwards of 25+ years.

New music? Lucky if it's 25 weeks. Hell....25 days?

Geez man.......cut them some slack?
Old 26th April 2018
  #41
I think he just meant, thats what happens when you've spent a lifetime partying and start getting old heh. My dad can't remember something I just told him an hour ago, let alone not even remembering memories from my childhood correctly. Jimmy was bombed out of his mind on all kinds of drugs through his heyday, heroin being a big one.

Its going to affect him in some negative way regardless of when/how long he's been cleaned up.
Old 26th April 2018
  #42
For drum tips, check out Bonzoleum's Youtube channel.

Old 29th April 2018
  #43
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doorknocker's Avatar
Since nobody reacted to my first entry here I say it again. The OP claims he has the 'musicians to back it up' and that is the problem here more so than any recording gear or specific instrument. NOBODY will be able to 'copy' these tracks and I bet even Mr. Page himself could not replicate the sound and feel of his solo on 'Good times, Bad Times' to mention but one example.

And Glyn Johns should definitely be credited because he was a big part of the success of those sessions as well. Apart rom the famous drum micing 'accident' I think there is a special something to anything Glyn Johns recorded during that time that makes it stand apart. Not saying that Zep I sounds better than what came later with various other engineers like Eddie Kramer, Andy Johns, Ron Nevison and others. But for example just with acoustic guitars there is something magical about the Glyn Johns sessions like 'Sticky Fingers' 'Who's Next' or Zeppelin I as discussed here. No matter how wildly different ther players and songs were.

I think it would be a much better (and less spectacular but most probably more rewarding) idea to focus on just one or two aspects of that recording. Say analyze the spatial aspect of the sound and how closely this could be emulated with modern gear/plug-ins. IMO this would be a good learning experience while trying to 'clone' the whole record is definitely a recipie for failure.
Old 30th April 2018
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
Since nobody reacted to my first entry here I say it again. The OP claims he has the 'musicians to back it up' and that is the problem here more so than any recording gear or specific instrument. NOBODY will be able to 'copy' these tracks and I bet even Mr. Page himself could not replicate the sound and feel of his solo on 'Good times, Bad Times' to mention but one example.

And Glyn Johns should definitely be credited because he was a big part of the success of those sessions as well. Apart rom the famous drum micing 'accident' I think there is a special something to anything Glyn Johns recorded during that time that makes it stand apart. Not saying that Zep I sounds better than what came later with various other engineers like Eddie Kramer, Andy Johns, Ron Nevison and others. But for example just with acoustic guitars there is something magical about the Glyn Johns sessions like 'Sticky Fingers' 'Who's Next' or Zeppelin I as discussed here. No matter how wildly different ther players and songs were.

I think it would be a much better (and less spectacular but most probably more rewarding) idea to focus on just one or two aspects of that recording. Say analyze the spatial aspect of the sound and how closely this could be emulated with modern gear/plug-ins. IMO this would be a good learning experience while trying to 'clone' the whole record is definitely a recipie for failure.
I didn’t respond to your earlier post because I disagree with it.

I don’t think he’ll have a hard time finding kids at his school that can replicate the performances. He does go to a music school if I remember correctly.

Secondly, led zep aren’t that great as musicians from a technical perspective. They had their thing, but they were all a little sloppy and very blues based. For a kid at a music school it’s not going to be all that hard to emulate.

We had a lot of guys do zeppelin for their sound alike projects when I was at school, it was never difficult to find people that could play it perfectly. It was tough to find singers that have a similar voice to plant. But they exist, just look at Greta Van Fleet. They are kids, they sound very much like zeppelin.

It’s not that difficult.
Old 30th April 2018
  #45
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Secondly, led zep aren’t that great as musicians from a technical perspective. They had their thing, but they were all a little sloppy and very blues based. For a kid at a music school it’s not going to be all that hard to emulate.
ROFL. I heard very, very good and famous drummers completely fail at 'emulating' Bonham. And Joe Bonamassa recently did a 'British Blues' tribute where he talked about how it is practically impossible to emulate Page. I mean - like him or not - but Bonamassa has the Clapton/Cream sound and feel totally down but Page is so unpredictable and versatile. I mean this is a bit OT but it really gets me going. 'I can play Zeppelin but more precise and technically better' is absolute bull because it reduces music to a kind of 'paint by numbers' thing. Page had a very unique take on the blues that was less studied and authentic than say Clapton but his role models were different too. Otis Rush, Bert Jansch or Skip James were never 'precise' players and a lot of Page's feel comes from those guys (combined with tons of others influences). The very best example of this for me is Page's solo on 'Since I've been loving you' - straight 'blues' but at the same time totally unique and impossible to copy.

Bonham had an unbelievable feel and great technique but it was the PARTS he came up with that ultimately put him up there with the very best. JPJ is one of the greatest all-around musicians of the rock age. Plant was unique, extremely powerful but soulful and blessed with a great blues feel - something that completely set him apart from most 'rock shouters'. As for Page, apart from being the architect of the songs and sounds and creater of some of the greatest riffs/parts ever- well, he also was and maybe still is a fantastic acoustic guitar player. Too often the 'great technique' thing is only being limited to electric solos and this is but a smal part of the Zeppelin thing. Live perfromances were different, often hit and miss and overlong as far as the guitar was concerned but that was the 70s era of stoned rock excess. But when there were on - I don't think that any band except maybe The Who at their very best could compete with Zeppelin.

But my point was not really about whether somebody can copy the music or not. It's the whole enchiliada. Not only was Zeppelin's music innovative but so were the recording techniques used.

But basically I feel the same about all 'classic' recordings. Trying to emulate Zep I will fail as much as trying to emulate the Stones 'Street Fighting Man' or 'Gimme Shelter' would. But you can learn a ton by learning the parts and analyzing the techniques used.

Last edited by doorknocker; 30th April 2018 at 10:29 AM..
Old 30th April 2018
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
John Bonamassa
Is that guy related to Joe at all? Plenty of bands/engineers/whatever have nailed "That late 60s/early 70s sound". Im sure the school doesn't expect them to make Led Zeppelin I note for note, feel for feel, all over again. They probably mean "take away all your gadgets and try to make an album in this era using the tools they had". Its getting a little overboard now.
Old 30th April 2018
  #47
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monotremata View Post
Is that guy related to Joe at all? Plenty of bands/engineers/whatever have nailed "That late 60s/early 70s sound". Im sure the school doesn't expect them to make Led Zeppelin I note for note, feel for feel, all over again. They probably mean "take away all your gadgets and try to make an album in this era using the tools they had". Its getting a little overboard now.
I know I shouldn't post before coffee.

My point is that the musicians are a major part of the sound. But also the engineer - in this case Glyn Johns who was incredibly important.

There are a few tracks around from the pre-Zeppelin 'Band of Joy' - Plant and Bonham in 66 or 67 I believe. The drums sound thunderous but there is very little resemblance to what was captured on tape shortly after with Zeppelin.

I guess at best trying to emulate Zeppelin I will sort of get you in the ballpark of what The Yardbirds did when Page was in the band. Except for the guitar of course.
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