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Pros: Help us get a grip on practical mixing technique using available multi-track Studio Monitors
Old 6th April 2018
  #1
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Quetz's Avatar
Pros: Help us get a grip on practical mixing technique using available multi-track

Hi to all of you professional mixers/engineers.

If you want to skip the whole discussion and just give me some simple feedback on this mix, I'd really appreciate it.
There's a 320 mp3 in the player at the end of this post. (Apparently an acapella version at the moment )
Fixing now.. Learned a lesson here - check, check

Your knowledge and advice on this forum is indispensable, but when it comes to actual practical application in terms of seeing/hearing how things should be done in the context of a real mix, we're still left fumbling in the dark somewhat.

What I suggest, is that if there are any of you that wouldn't mind donating a bit of your valuable time and experience, that you could take a freely available simple multi-track, and mix it so that we could compare our own mixes and see how to attain a better end result.

Cambridge Technology have a multi-track available of James May's 'On The Line' track here, with some notes on the landing page:

About This Multitrack

Multi-track files are here:
[url=http://www.mtkdata.cambridgemusictechnology.co.uk/MTK004/MR1210_JamesMay_Full.zip[/url]



It seems a really good place to start because it's an uncomplicated arrangement with a modest number of decent raw tracks to work with.

It would be amazing if one or more professionals could do a mix using these tracks to show us what we're doing wrong/right, and what can be achieved when you really know what you're doing.

I appreciate of course that you are all busy people with priorities, but this kind of thing would be worth more to us than 100 how-to videos or 1000 magazine/web articles on mixing.

It's not difficult to get a decent balance using these tracks, but learning how to elevate them to a really polished final mix would be amazing.

This is also really valuable because we would be able to hear what a good mix, as opposed to a mastered track sounds like, as pretty much all material that we use as references has already been mastered, which as you're aware, is not a level playing field in the slightest.

I really hope one or some of you would be generous enough to have a go, it would be of huge benefit, and maybe could even become something we could do each month?
It seems a waste that despite having so many experienced pros on the forum with so much combined talent and skill, that there is no existing mode for sharing those skills in a more practical way.

I'm not so ignorant that I don't realise you've all got your own livelihoods to concentrate on, but this is something that would be an incredibly useful thing for so many people.

Here's hoping.
Thanks.

edit: It's prob best if anyone that is kind enough to do it, adds their mix last, to avoid people just trying to clone their mix from the outset.
Nobody would be expecting you to give up hours in Q&A (at least not me), just a few notes on the mix would be cool.
I'm going to put up my effort soon anyway, and maybe some other amateurs will have a crack and share their mixes as well, then if someone more expert wants to contribute a mix a few days from now, then all good.
If not, then nothing lost and nothing gained I guess!

There's a description on the 2nd page which lists some of the fundamental things I did, for better or for worse.
Attached Files

James May_On the Line_Quetz Mix.mp3 (10.72 MB, 569 views)


Last edited by Quetz; 11th April 2018 at 09:52 PM.. Reason: added direct link to multi-tracks
Old 7th April 2018
  #2
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BIG BUDDHA's Avatar
a demo mix dub can be spun off in a few hours, but a serious mix is a day in the making for many. or 1/2 day at least

no professional likes doing B grade work, as it detracts from your career, so if your going to mix something, you generally do it right, and spend as much time as it takes, to get the best result you can possibly achieve.

there are 3 basic costs.

1 studio hire/time/daily or hourly. ( generally expensive)

2 mix engineers rate/ hourly or daily. ( often expensive )

3 mastering once the mix is down. ( sometimes affordable )

sometimes there is outboard hire, if the mix engineer thinks there is something he needs, thats lacking in the mix rooms available equipment.

add it up and your looking at a thing called budget.

professionals get paid for their time, and not many professionals people will spend serious time on anything, if they are not being paid to do so.

its just like work without pay, and paid work is the stuff that gets done in real studios when you have fixed overheads like rent, wages, repairs, electricity, insurance, tax , etc.

its gotta be that way or the studio closes.

i know there are exceptions to my previous comments, studios owned by independantly wealthy musicians or by rockstars , but commercial studios generally have to spin a buck to be there. thats the game

Buddha



.
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Old 7th April 2018
  #3
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Quetz's Avatar
I completely understand.

I knew it was a long shot, and a big ask

I'm satisfied to go the normal route and just post a mix and ask 'how do I improve this'.
The feedback I get will be valuable, I know that. But to have a professional knock out a mix from the same material so that I can get concrete knowledge and hear a proper pre-mastered mix, that's real gold.
(And I get that it's gold for all the reasons you have mentioned).

Yea it would only apply to this project and a lot of mix decisions will be artistic not purely technical so there's not necessarily a right and a wrong way etc, but damn it would be useful!
Well, I've got mine halfway, have to work the weekend so will finish off on speakers on Monday; I'll post mine anyway, and if there is anyone from the thousands of pros on here that didn't mind investing in us a little, even anonymously if that's possible, well it would be really nice, but I honestly do understand if it's asking too much.
But it never hurts to ask, does it

Edit: there are only 14 tracks:
Kick
Snare
Tom 1
Tom 2
Overheads
Bass DI
Guit 1
Guit 2
Cello 1
Cello 2
Mando 1
Mando 2
Lead Vocal
Backing Vocal

I'm not even using the tom tracks.
Old 7th April 2018
  #4
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FreshProduce's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
I completely understand.

I knew it was a long shot, and a big ask

I'm satisfied to go the normal route and just post a mix and ask 'how do I improve this'.
The feedback I get will be valuable, I know that. But to have a professional knock out a mix from the same material so that I can get concrete knowledge and hear a proper pre-mastered mix, that's real gold.
(And I get that it's gold for all the reasons you have mentioned).

Yea it would only apply to this project and a lot of mix decisions will be artistic not purely technical so there's not necessarily a right and a wrong way etc, but damn it would be useful!
Well, I've got mine halfway, have to work the weekend so will finish off on speakers on Monday; I'll post mine anyway, and if there is anyone from the thousands of pros on here that didn't mind investing in us a little, even anonymously if that's possible, well it would be really nice, but I honestly do understand if it's asking too much.
But it never hurts to ask, does it

Edit: there are only 14 tracks:
Kick
Snare
Tom 1
Tom 2
Overheads
Bass DI
Guit 1
Guit 2
Cello 1
Cello 2
Mando 1
Mando 2
Lead Vocal
Backing Vocal

I'm not even using the tom tracks.
There is no amount of information on the internet that will substitute for practice and experience.

If you want to learn how to produce a balanced, wellrounded mix, you have to get your hands dirty just like those who you're asking for advice, did.

Even if you had the same tracks, some professional telling you what they do, isn't going to do anything for you. You must learn how to mix the way you're supposed to.. not how others are supposed to.

Are you saying that you want a pro to mix something for you just so you can see what they do and compare? Are you planning on paying them? How about you just purchase some tracks that dozens of engineers have mixed already and try recreating what they've already done? That is a thing.

As far as mixing techniques and practices go.. there's more than enough information on GS alone to get you started on your own mixing experience. I'm aware everyone wants to find the best shortcut and all.. but there are no shortcuts in becoming a better you.

Get practicing!!!
Old 7th April 2018
  #5
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What a couple of pointless answers. If you don't want to help, there's no point responding to say "I'm not gonna help, do it yourself!" Plenty of pros on here and elsewhere have given plenty of online help an attempt to help others to learn and didn't get paid for it, so this "why should we help you for free" bit is lame. If you don't want to help in this way, fine, then just move on. I agree there would be value in seeing a track originally and then what or how pros mixed it as an example. Learning by example is a very common and effective teaching method.
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Old 7th April 2018
  #6
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
What a couple of pointless answers. If you don't want to help, there's no point responding to say "I'm not gonna help, do it yourself!" Plenty of pros on here and elsewhere have given plenty of online help...
Maybe I'm missing something, but if you click on "About this multitrack," didn't this Mike Senior guy already mix the song, and add commentary and suggestions, and include clips showing various fx? And I'm guessing he got paid at least a little something to do it.
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Old 7th April 2018
  #7
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I actually think that this is a pretty good idea and agree with Bill and Quetz.

Of course every track is different, and we all have different tastes, but I think what could be beneficial here is for the newbie to hear a track before and after processing along with an explanation of what was done. This is way more rewarding than only having it explained theoretically. In addition there are the rest of the tracks that make up the mix so a simple a/b can show just how the process improves the mix.

That we all have different takes on something is actually interesting and could be valuable because the new engineer could then get to hear and learn how different thought processes and aesthetics result in different mixes.

I'd contribute if I could, but alas I no longer do music mixes so I doubt it'd be of much value (plus I have to re-install some software to get this done).....

Anyway, I agree with Bill here: If we don't want to or can't help then fine, but I think this is a worthwhile effort for newbies and I'm sure any pros helping out are very appreciated. No reason to shoot this effort down.
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Old 7th April 2018
  #8
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I actually think that this is a pretty good idea and agree with Bill and Quetz.
So do I. But I also agree with Post Two, Paragraph Two.
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Old 7th April 2018
  #9
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As do I.
Old 7th April 2018
  #10
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Quetz's Avatar
As do I

I wouldn't call this B-grade work though, the raw tracks aren't perfect, but they're not crap. (Those toms though.. )
Certainly not up to the standard you guys are used to I'm sure, especially if you're tracking yourselves.

Thank you Bill5 for seeing the merit in what can easily be misinterpreted as a selfish ask, and so I don't begrudge FreshProduce their response at all, although they do miss the point about how much more valuable a show and tell is especially when you've got the same material to work with.
Many of the points they brought up I had already addressed: about aesthetics and taste, knowing the value of your time, pro should submit last so I'm not copying anyone's mix, etc.
Actually, maybe I should begrudge them their post..

@Brent Hahn - his breakdown is a bit confusing, he says at the top that he didn't mix this track, but then later says he did it as a mix rescue.

Either way, I have direct access here to thousands of professionals, so just seemed natural to ask.

A quick point here: I'm not a beginner, so I'm not asking to be hand-held through the basics. I want to progress, and I know how I learn, and how valuable this kind of approach would be.

But hey guys, if any of you have a studio in London and you want me to learn the traditional way, then by all means - I can do 3 days per week, unpaid. PM button is right there
(Probably best to listen to my mix first)
Old 7th April 2018
  #11
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FreshProduce's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
What a couple of pointless answers. If you don't want to help, there's no point responding to say "I'm not gonna help, do it yourself!" Plenty of pros on here and elsewhere have given plenty of online help an attempt to help others to learn and didn't get paid for it, so this "why should we help you for free" bit is lame. If you don't want to help in this way, fine, then just move on. I agree there would be value in seeing a track originally and then what or how pros mixed it as an example. Learning by example is a very common and effective teaching method.
I'm not sure what exactly is so terrible about what I said. Every aspiring engineer has the infinite amount of material the internet provides at their disposal.. something that no one coming up in even the 80s had.. and people still want more.

Just because you deem something as being 'useless', and either aren't able or willing to see value in opinions that you cannot fully comprehend doesn't mean that there is no value.

The way I see it is that we are blessed and lucky to be living in such amazing times. You can learn any given craft in easily half the amount of time it would have taken decades ago, and yet there are still countless posts basically asking others to hold someone's hand and walk them through their own journey.

You can pay for tracks that have been mixed by many professional engineers online and offer plenty of side notes, tips, techniques etc.. but that's not good enough? What I took from the original post is that the OP wants professionals to teach him how to mix for free. Go to a mechanic and try to get him to teach you how to fix your car for free. Tell me how that works out for you.

I'll say it again.. nothing will substitute hands on experience, and in my opinion.. there is more than enough material online to be able to put the pieces together and learn how pros have done what they've done. How much is enough ffs? This is not a matter of not wanting to help someone else. First off I'm not a professional engineer. Secondly, sometimes people need to hear not just what they want to hear.. but what the universe or God or w/e needs them to hear.. and I'm just as much a part of the world as you or anyone else here, is.

If some kind soul feels compelled to hold your hand and offer you exactly the help you desire, Great! I'm legitimately happy for you. However, from what I've seen on a forum where many pros would say you aren't an engineer unless you get paid for it..? Sorry but I'm not about to pretend like I can 'unread' the things I've read here. No one who doesn't have excessive time on their hands is going to wanna mix for free. For a professional to wanna do that.. they must not be earning any money because this craft is extremely time consuming. Go sign up for mixing w the masters and take a look at how much it costs to receive a mixing lesson by talent such as someone like CLA. The skills you look to obtain do not come cheap, and you're truly blessed if you gain a mentor who will share knowledge with that lvl of skills. This isn't a matter of 'not understanding' anything. I get it. I get how nice that'd be bro lol. Like I said.. look up the cost of 4 days with a pro holding your hand.

Nothing I said was/is malicious. I'm just being honest. There's so much to learn from what's online already. I highly doubt the OP has learned everything there is to learn from the internet short of having a pro walk them through it.. and so to me, it sounds like he's looking for a shortcut to becoming a set of fully trained ears who has the experience necessary to know what to do in any given situation.

That experience is what makes a great mix.. and you will not gain it solely by listening to what someone else has done

Idk what else to say..

Will you learn from someone holding your hand? Sure! Can the time/thought spent asking for help be better prioritized by practicing and gaining that raw experience the only way that will truly help you grow as an artist?

Absolutely.
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Old 7th April 2018
  #12
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Animesh Raval's Avatar
Just to say, I know Mike Senior - he’s an absolutely top bloke and has a real heart for helping particularly DIY enthusiasts in making competitive recordings and mixes on a budget. You can hire him to mix a track and sit with him at his studio in Munich to mix with him and he’ll answer all your questions right there and then... or potentially he might be able to use a track for “mix rescue” article in SOS magazine in which case the magazine might cover mixing costs.

I think the premise of this post is good...but I think if you’re serious about learning something, sometimes it pays to put your money on the table - hire someone to mix your track and then go sit in on the session with them. I got to know Mike some years ago by doing just that. I’ve since sought out other people I admire to learn from them directly, and found mentors I can approach to comment on my mixes.

I don’t want to seem negative but I feel like there’s a tendency to want everything for nothing, but just as we like to invest in gear, it strikes me as self-defeating to then scrimp on our education.
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Old 7th April 2018
  #13
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Quetz's Avatar
@FreshProduce - it would be really helpful if you could read my posts before going off on one

I've definitely thought about doing the sit-in session thing, it's exactly the kind of thing that would help me learn the fastest. But if I had the money for it, I'd do it!
And how many of those sessions would I have to pay for? A handful wouldn't do it. I'd want to be there every day. And that's an apprenticeship, basically. I'd rather be working there unpaid.
FreshProduce seems to think it's still the 80's.

What I'm suggesting is kind of the next best thing. Please understand that I'm only just surviving in London on 3 days work per week (hence having 3 days free, or 4, what the hell).
The problem I have, is that I love to mix. For me it's not a means to an end. The whole process of learning how to write music has just been leading to that realisation.
I can't finish material quick enough to get to the bit I really want to do!
What I'm going to start doing, is to canvas for material to mix for others, for free, to get as much material as I can to practice on. I'm only just feeling comfortable with doing that though.

I've mixed some stuff for other people before (couple of times, for friends), always acoustic stuff, even though I only write electronic.
It makes sense because if you asked me to name just one album that I wish I had mixed, it would be Beth Orton's 'Central Reservation'.
Still gives me goosebumps.

I know there were quite a few mix engineers on that album, they're all very, very talented.
Old 7th April 2018
  #14
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FreshProduce's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
@FreshProduce - it would be really helpful if you could read my posts before going off on one

I've definitely thought about doing the sit-in session thing, it's exactly the kind of thing that would help me learn the fastest. But if I had the money for it, I'd do it!
And how many of those sessions would I have to pay for? A handful wouldn't do it. I'd want to be there every day. And that's an apprenticeship, basically. I'd rather be working there unpaid.
FreshProduce seems to think it's still the 80's.

What I'm suggesting is kind of the next best thing. Please understand that I'm only just surviving in London on 3 days work per week (hence having 3 days free, or 4, what the hell).
The problem I have, is that I love to mix. For me it's not a means to an end. The whole process of learning how to write music has just been leading to that realisation.
I can't finish material quick enough to get to the bit I really want to do!
What I'm going to start doing, is to canvas for material to mix for others, for free, to get as much material as I can to practice on. I'm only just feeling comfortable with doing that though.

I've mixed some stuff for other people before, always acoustic stuff, even though I only write electronic.
It makes sense because if you asked me to name just one album that I wish I had mixed, it would be Beth Orton's 'Central Reservation'.
Still gives me goosebumps.

I know there were quite a few mix engineers on that album, they're all very, very talented.
Idk buddy it looks like I'm not the one having trouble reading what others are trying to say if you think I haven't read the posts in full before mine, and that I believe it's the 80s..

Good luck getting pros to pass their skills onto you for free!

*unparticipates*
Old 7th April 2018
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshProduce View Post
What I took from the original post is that the OP wants professionals to teach him how to mix for free. Go to a mechanic and try to get him to teach you how to fix your car for free. Tell me how that works out for you.
A fair point.
Old 7th April 2018
  #16
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dights's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
Hi to all of you professional mixers/engineers.

Your knowledge and advice on this forum is indispensable, but when it comes to actual practical application in terms of seeing/hearing how things should be done in the context of a real mix, we're still left fumbling in the dark somewhat.

What I suggest, is that if there are any of you that wouldn't mind donating a bit of your valuable time and experience, that you could take a freely available simple multi-track, and mix it so that we could compare our own mixes and see how to attain a better end result.

Cambridge Technology have a multi-track available of James May's 'On The Line' track here, with some notes on the landing page:

About This Multitrack

It seems a really good place to start because it's an uncomplicated arrangement with a modest number of decent raw tracks to work with.

It would be amazing if one or more professionals could do a mix using these tracks to show us what we're doing wrong/right, and what can be achieved when you really know what you're doing.

I appreciate of course that you are all busy people with priorities, but this kind of thing would be worth more to us than 100 how-to videos or 1000 magazine/web articles on mixing.

It's not difficult to get a decent balance using these tracks, but learning how to elevate them to a really polished final mix would be amazing.

This is also really valuable because we would be able to hear what a good mix, as opposed to a mastered track sounds like, as pretty much all material that we use as references has already been mastered, which as you're aware, is not a level playing field in the slightest.

I really hope onme or some of you would be generous enough to have a go, it would be of huge benefit, and maybe could even become something we could do each month?
It seems a waste that despite having so many experienced pros on the forum with so much combined talent and skill, that there is no existing mode for sharing those skills in a more practical way.

I'm not so ignorant that I don't realise you've all got your own livelihoods to concentrate on, but this is something that would be an incredibly useful thing for so many people.

Here's hoping.

Thanks.

edit: It's prob best if anyone that is kind enough to do it, adds their mix last, to avoid people just trying to clone their mix from the outset.
Nobody would be expecting you to give up hours in Q&A (at least not me), just a few notes on the mix would be cool.
I'm going to put up my effort soon anyway, and maybe some other amateurs will have a crack and share their mixes as well, then if someone more expert wants to contribute a mix a few days from now, then all good.
If not, then nothing lost and nothing gained I guess!
I think you're missing what people are saying here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG BUDDHA View Post
no professional likes doing B grade work, as it detracts from your career, so if your going to mix something, you generally do it right, and spend as much time as it takes, to get the best result you can possibly achieve.
This is a really good point.

Basically no professional mix engineer is going to do a quick rough mix and put it out there, as it reflects on them... they're going to want to do a professional mix to the best of their abilities whatever the source material.

So you're asking someone to do a professional mix and then take the time to talk you through it. That's days of work, and it's unlikely that anyone who does this for a living will have the time or inclination to do that for free.

Just a thought.
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Old 8th April 2018
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshProduce View Post
something that no one coming up in even the 80s had
Which is relevant because...

Quote:
Just because you deem something as being 'useless', and either aren't able or willing to see value in opinions that you cannot fully comprehend doesn't mean that there is no value.
LOL pot meet kettle. You offered (and continue to offer) absolutely zero of value to this thread. There's nothing to "comprehend." You either stated the absurdly obvious or droned on about why you or others shouldn't help w/this idea. If you want to believe that has any value, knock yourself out. Those of us with a clue know better.

Quote:
What I took from the original post is that the OP wants professionals to teach him how to mix for free.
What I take from that response is that your reading comprehension is sadly lacking.

Quote:
Idk what else to say..
Thank God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshProduce View Post
Idk buddy it looks like I'm not the one having trouble reading what others are trying to say
Then you need glasses.

buh bye
Old 8th April 2018
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
A fair point.
Hardly. It's a totally invalid analogy. A valid one would be someone going to a message board online about car repair and asking questions about it. Which I've no doubt happens and experts in the field actually (gasp) answer those questions. omg! For free? Are they crazy?? Nothing replaces practice. These people shouldn't ask questions online, they should just go practice on their cars.

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Old 8th April 2018
  #19
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FreshProduce's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
Which is relevant because...

LOL pot meet kettle. You offered (and continue to offer) absolutely zero of value to this thread. There's nothing to "comprehend." You either stated the absurdly obvious or droned on about why you or others shouldn't help w/this idea. If you want to believe that has any value, knock yourself out. Those of us with a clue know better.

What I take from that response is that your reading comprehension is sadly lacking.

Thank God.

Then you need glasses.

buh bye
Then by all means, please..

How about you be the one to hold his hand? Convince him to cling to what others do.. and in turn, make sure he's as dependent as possible on not just the opinions of others.. but their 'standards' as well. Why don't we be the least artistic and individual as possible while we're at it, hmm?

I don't appreciate you attempting to insult me. I haven't insulted you whatsoever, and consequently.. it has given me great insight into what kind of a person you are on the inside. You truly felt good replying as sarcastically, and snottily as possibly.. I mean it really made you feel better about yourself huh?

I doubt that. I would say "why bother?" but I'm sure your reply would be something like "exactly! why bother responding to a thread when you're not willing to help!?"

Well.. if you're unable to see how bringing people down to reality is helping them.. there's nothing I could say to you that would change your mind. And that's okay. Maybe we can convince the mods to start a subforum where we can compile every "how to sound like.." thread for everyone starting out who wants to give birth to their baby without the labor pains.

So if it's a 'mechanics forum'.. that's the only way what I said would make sense? If a mechanic were sitting at a computer on a forum, and you asked them to teach you how to fix your car? Lmao
Because 'their time' just.. isn't 'their time', unless they're leisurely browsing the internet

Yes.. because the OP was simply asking a question, and not begging for professionals to essentially work for free..

"Hey guys.. can someone who does this for a living please spend 9-13 hours on my education for free?" (In some cases, $1400 worth of time!?)


Great points!

Thank you for the laugh!

Have a great day!
Old 8th April 2018
  #20
Lives for gear
 

I thought you were "unparticipating," as you said earlier? I guess you don't comprehend that concept either. Surprise.

I didn't read the rest of your post, nor will I in the future, as you've made it clear what a waste of time that is. But enjoy the rest of your "unparticipating."
Old 8th April 2018
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
I completely understand.

I knew it was a long shot, and a big ask

I'm satisfied to go the normal route and just post a mix and ask 'how do I improve this'.
The feedback I get will be valuable, I know that. But to have a professional knock out a mix from the same material so that I can get concrete knowledge and hear a proper pre-mastered mix, that's real gold.
(And I get that it's gold for all the reasons you have mentioned).
All is not lost my friend and your request is easier then you think. Let me tell you what I did and it may work for you. Find a professional recording studio in your area. Send them an email introducing yourself and start a relationship. Tell them what you want to accomplish, your weak areas as well as your strong areas concerning mixing and mastering. Be honest! Most people love to teach what they know. Ask them if you can sit in on a couple of secession while volunteering to bring the coffee and donuts.

Keep your mouth closed and your eyes and ears open. Take notes and save any questions till the very end of the secession. Don’t overwhelm them with questions. Take your time and just listen to what they are saying. Google their answers and do your own research.

Mix your audio and send it to them to master it. Also include the raw files as well. List all your equipment as well as the software and plugins you used. (Most Professional Studios Request/Require This Information). Ask them to include any suggestions on your mixing abilities. You may not be as bad at mixing as you think and they should be happy to do this. Tell them you will use their service exclusively for your audio.

Most people who mix their own music will send it off to get mastered. I do not want to start a debate on this but there are many reasons they do this. Find studios that have “Open House” and attend everyone you can. This is what I did and it changed my whole concept on mixing and mastering audio.

The following two videos are from Blue Room Productions, 20 miles from my home. I am fixing to move to my new home 2 hrs away. I will make the trip anytime I can get in their doors. The first video is their intro, the second was an “Open House”. Talk about having some fun and still be sober, it just does not get any better then this.

P.s. Conrad charges $75.00 per song and he is the biggest dawg on the porch in this area. If you pm me, I will send you a link to my Dropbox account. Send me your files and I will show you just how easy your request is! Please keep in mind that "I am just a weirdo crunching on cheerios"!




Last edited by Dana_T.; 8th April 2018 at 06:12 AM.. Reason: Spelling.
Old 8th April 2018
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
Hardly. It's a totally invalid analogy. A valid one would be someone going to a message board online about car repair and asking questions about it. Which I've no doubt happens and experts in the field actually (gasp) answer those questions. omg! For free? Are they crazy?? Nothing replaces practice. These people shouldn't ask questions online, they should just go practice on their cars.

Errr... your analogy is invalid.

The equivalent would be asking the mechanic to repair your car and then explaining why and how he did it.

The OP is asking for someone to actually do a mix, not simply explain potential mixing techniques.

Most people on here are happy to answer specific questions and even to go into detail, but doing a mix for free...
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Old 8th April 2018
  #23
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Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
Hardly. It's a totally invalid analogy. A valid one would be someone going to a message board online about car repair and asking questions about it. Which I've no doubt happens and experts in the field actually (gasp) answer those questions. omg! For free? Are they crazy?? Nothing replaces practice. These people shouldn't ask questions online, they should just go practice on their cars.

Well we obviously disagree.

I understand and see the point in asking what Quetz is asking for, and as a learning tool I think it's probably a great exercise.

But I also understand that when professionals teach others how to do their job they lose potential revenue. It's not about the individuals but about the industry as a whole. That's why I think the point is actually fair and logical.

Edit: And I've actually been in positions where I was hired as a professional, and after having done a job was asked to write a clear and easy to follow "idiots guide" to that job so that a less expensive engineer could do the job. I found that to be somewhat offensive to be honest. Sufficed to say my 'guide' was probably not entirely easy to follow in the end....
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Old 8th April 2018
  #24
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Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
I thought you were "unparticipating," as you said earlier? I guess you don't comprehend that concept either. Surprise.

I didn't read the rest of your post, nor will I in the future, as you've made it clear what a waste of time that is. But enjoy the rest of your "unparticipating."
Reparticipating is a thing.. just so you know. Thanks for confirming my suspicions of you being totally helpless in your own unwillingness to see a perspective other than your own. You sure made me look stupid, alright!

"Buh bye"

*re-un-participates*
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Old 8th April 2018
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dights View Post
Errr... your analogy is invalid.

The equivalent would be asking the mechanic to repair your car and then explaining why and how he did it.

The OP is asking for someone to actually do a mix, not simply explain potential mixing techniques.

Most people on here are happy to answer specific questions and even to go into detail, but doing a mix for free...
No. It's not the same thing at all, because I'm not asking anyone to mix my own material.
If I were, then you'd be spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Well we obviously disagree.

I understand and see the point in asking what Quetz is asking for, and as a learning tool I think it's probably a great exercise.

But I also understand that when professionals teach others how to do their job they lose potential revenue. It's not about the individuals but about the industry as a whole. That's why I think the point is actually fair and logical.
If that were true, Mattias, then apprenticeships wouldn't be the established tradition that they are.

Passing on knowledge for free (or in exchange for menial labour while learning) is an essential part of keeping the industry alive.
Can you imagine where the recording industry would be in the future if every aspiring engineer was told to just 'go home and practice'.

I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single professional on here worth their salt that got to where they are with absolutely no outside help (and I don't mean magazine articles).
Old 8th April 2018
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
No. It's not the same thing at all, because I'm not asking anyone to mix my own material.
If I were, then you'd be spot on.



If that were true, Mattias, then apprenticeships wouldn't be the established tradition that they are.

Passing on knowledge for free (or in exchange for menial labour while learning) is an essential part of keeping the industry alive.
Can you imagine where the recording industry would be in the future if every aspiring engineer was told to just 'go home and practice'.

I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single professional on here worth their salt that got to where they are with absolutely no outside help (and I don't mean magazine articles).
You would lose that bet. And I'll say it again.. you're not asking for modest advice.. and no one is accusing you of expecting pros to mix your material. You're being accused of you wanting pros to mix for you free of charge. Which is precisely what you're doing

I agree in saying that it's a somewhat disrespectful approach. You can pay a small fee for a program that allows you to attempt a mix that has been done already by several pro engineers.. with tips included.. you could save up and pay a respectable engineer to mix for you and sit in on it.. Which would offer a wealth of information and possibly provide you a lifelong mentor.. you could intern at a studio and learn.. but that's not good enough for you. You want pros to bend backwards and sacrifice their time beyond the advice they offer on mixing here, to mix what you want them to for nothing.

I tried to point out that no one who produces the big, sparkling mixes you want to emulate, is going to put their heart into something like that for free.. and you seem to be taking offense to the truth that you're better off spending your time gaining experience instead of begging for someone to spend $1000 worth of their time on your shortcomings.

Do people get help? Yeah of course they do! I have, and many pros have. But I'll tell you what.. begging is a huge turn off.. and it's not going to get you anywhere.
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Old 8th April 2018
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
If that were true, Mattias, then apprenticeships wouldn't be the established tradition that they are.

Passing on knowledge for free (or in exchange for menial labour while learning) is an essential part of keeping the industry alive.
Can you imagine where the recording industry would be in the future if every aspiring engineer was told to just 'go home and practice'.

I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single professional on here worth their salt that got to where they are with absolutely no outside help (and I don't mean magazine articles).
I think that's a bit different though. It's one thing to teach a person something during an apprenticeship and another to broadcast one's knowledge to the entire world. The implications are different. I also think that in a lot of apprenticeships there is as you say or imply a goal of keeping the industry alive, but I also think that in a lot of those cases those needs are very close to the person being the tutor. In other words in a lot of cases you're an apprentice with someone with the understanding that it's very likely you'll begin working for that person at some point.

That's why I said it's about the industry as a whole and not the individual. If I were to be concerned about my own situation then I'd want less competition, and if I felt the need for more engineers I'd be more than willing to tutor someone for free. But that apprenticeship would mean I'd have some amount of 'finer' control over my part of education and its effect on the market. When you simply teach (for free) 'everyone' to do 'everything' you risk first of all eroding the profession of education and secondly also enable those who would have been clients of yours in the future to do the job themselves.

And I guess that also brings the point (my guess is) that most people in apprenticeship aren't necessarily there to just get enough knowledge to complete their own projects, but to take on other people's work. So again, from a standpoint of "self-preservation" there's an argument to be made for getting paid for the knowledge one has, be it for education or for doing the work directly, and that just giving that away for free can have detrimental effects on both the education industry and the industry of the craft.

Again, I'm not trying to advocate one or the other here, I just think we should acknowledge that what the other poster brought up is actually a logical argument, and that it's worth giving it some thought instead of just dismissing it.

I tend to write too much at times and get too deep into some discussions, but if anything; I did initially dismiss his points but re-read them and re-considered them because I thought that was the fair thing to do. And I do think he has a point.
Old 8th April 2018
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
No. It's not the same thing at all, because I'm not asking anyone to mix my own material.
If I were, then you'd be spot on.



If that were true, Mattias, then apprenticeships wouldn't be the established tradition that they are.

Passing on knowledge for free (or in exchange for menial labour while learning) is an essential part of keeping the industry alive.
Can you imagine where the recording industry would be in the future if every aspiring engineer was told to just 'go home and practice'.

I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single professional on here worth their salt that got to where they are with absolutely no outside help (and I don't mean magazine articles).
Your material or someone else's, a mix is a mix.

You're right though, I didn't learn mixing without any outside help... I did the old school route starting out working on night reception at a big studio and then getting to be an assistant engineer earning less than minimum wage. I ended up getting to assist some of the top mix engineers, and you really can't pay for that experience.

Personally I think it's a massive shame for today's engineers that most of those routes are non-existent these days.

Ask me questions about mixing and I'll happily give a detailed opinion, ask me to do a mix for nothing... not so much.
Old 8th April 2018
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshProduce View Post
.. you could intern at a studio and learn.. but that's not good enough for you. You want pros to bend backwards and sacrifice their time beyond the advice they offer on mixing here, to mix what you want them to for nothing.
This is what I meant when I said read my posts. I've made it quite clear that I would be more than happy to apprentice. In fact, that would be my preferred solution.
You seem unbelievably keen to go on the attack on issues I've already shown I understand and appreciate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshProduce View Post
I tried to point out that no one who produces the big, sparkling mixes you want to emulate, is going to put their heart into something like that for free..
I know that it was a big ask. I'm pretty sure I made that clear already.
I'm starting to realise the naivety of thinking that someone might actually find it fun, and a chance to show a generosity of spirit, which most have in one way or another.

As far as learning goes, it's a great idea. If that learning experience in your eyes should only be accessible with money, then I think that's a shame.
I understand why you would think that way, and it's not my place to say you shouldn't. But there are many different ways to approach life and I've always found that shutting doors instead of opening them is rarely that productive.

To each their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I also think that in a lot of apprenticeships there is as you say or imply a goal of keeping the industry alive, but I also think that in a lot of those cases those needs are very close to the person being the tutor.
In other words in a lot of cases you're an apprentice with someone with the understanding that it's very likely you'll begin working for that person at some point.
That's a very fair point. It's not altruistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dights View Post
I did the old school route starting out working on night reception at a big studio and then getting to be an assistant engineer earning less than minimum wage. I ended up getting to assist some of the top mix engineers, and you really can't pay for that experience.
Some here would insist that pay for it is what I must do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dights View Post
Ask me questions about mixing and I'll happily give a detailed opinion, ask me to do a mix for nothing... not so much.
Haha. Ok, I will. I'm becoming increasingly aware that after all the heated debate, I've now got to post a mix here tomorrow. No pressure
Old 8th April 2018
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
Haha. Ok, I will. I'm becoming increasingly aware that after all the heated debate, I've now got to post a mix here tomorrow. No pressure
No pressure at all...

I'm happy to help as much as I can, and I was always the unusual engineer in the studio who made the assistants tea, then helped them lug gear about and pack down the session.

There was a part of me that almost did the mix, but I'm still not sure how much help that would be... Feel free to fire over whatever questions you may have, PM me if you want and I'll do my best.

Mixing is a strange and undervalued skill, decades later you're still learning and improving. These days the traditional assistant paths of knowledge for engineers are all but lost. It's a shame.

Good luck.
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