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Pros: Help us get a grip on practical mixing technique using available multi-track Studio Monitors
Old 27th April 2018
  #91
Lives for gear
 
Quetz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG BUDDHA View Post
if you genuinely want to learn how to track and mix, i suggest you Front Up at your local Pro Studio, give them a smile and offer to assist for free.

just by being there you will learn stuff. tons of stuff. many studios get people approachng all the time, and some will let enthusiastic people come and sit in for a while.

one of the young guys who was especially keen and showed great potential, started his enginerng career in my studo, when i let hm loose on a few young bands,and he eventually turned into a professional full time engineer/producer.

from memory his last year recent credits include Pink, Eddie Vetter, Rod Stewart.......

enough said.

Buddha
I cannot argue with that.
Not as easy as you make it sound, of course, but there's never any harm in trying.
Old 27th April 2018
  #92
Lives for gear
 
BIG BUDDHA's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
I cannot argue with that.
Not as easy as you make it sound, of course, but there's never any harm in trying.
sending in a resume will achieve nothing. studios get about a hundred of those per year. sometimes more.

the people that front up are the ones that get a look in.

before you go in do your research and find out the studio managers name.
front up and ask to speak to him directly.

Be well dressed, be polite, smile and say your keen to learn. tell him you are volunteering your time without payment. show him your just a dead keen young man.

ask if you could assist for a few days. if he likes your persona he might say yes.

he wont put you on with High end clients, as those sessions are not for newbys. He might let you assist with more general works. Bands and the like.

general assistant duties include

making cups of tea.
getting the lunches.
helping the drummer to get the Kit inside
carrying the Bass amp
tidying up the band rooms before recording.
tidying up again after recording. all areas.

if your good at all that, you will move on to setting up the drum mics, console zero duties, pluging in/setting up outboard, mic changes whist recording, and tape OP duties if its a 2 inch studio. also cleaning the heads. etc etc

try to keep a low profile and be verbally quiet once the sessions happening, to allow the engineer and producer to focus. dont get in the way. help in any way you can. smile a lot.

if you get all that right, you may find that eventually doors will open.

opertunities arrise, but you have to be the right man in the right place.

employment may or may not come from all this, but i guarantee you will learn something.

Buddha
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Old 27th April 2018
  #93
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Quetz's Avatar
You just had to put the studio pic there

That was a very superficial but effective bit of motivation

Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if they got a thousand applications a year, I mean who wouldn't want to work in a studio?

I make the best tea, it's not even funny.

Here's a question though - are studios only looking for fresh-faced recording school grads, or can someone over 30 with the right attitude still get a look-in, or would they shoo me away at the door?

I've always assumed I would be passed over for someone younger, but maybe that's an incorrect assumption.

I've managed to get myself into a very fortunate position (especially rare in London) where I can get by and meet my commitments (just) while working a 3 day week.

So I've got 4 days spare to give, but would that be enough?
It would have to be, unless they didn't mind me sleeping there

edit: I can spare 3 days per week, I need to keep a day open to earn more so I can buy gear..
Old 28th April 2018
  #94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
.

Here's a question though - are studios only looking for fresh-faced recording school grads, or can someone over 30 with the right attitude still get a look-in, or would they shoo me away at the door?

I've always assumed I would be passed over for someone younger, but maybe that's an incorrect assumption.

I've managed to get myself into a very fortunate position (especially rare in London) where I can get by and meet my commitments (just) while working a 3 day week.

So I've got 4 days spare to give, but would that be enough?
It would have to be, unless they didn't mind me sleeping there

edit: I can spare 3 days per week, I need to keep a day open to earn more so I can buy gear..
Well, my latest assistant engineer that I hired is 37 or 38 years old... and he is AMAZING! Do not overlook or downplay life experience. It can be a huge factor.

My assistant worked as a software engineer when he was younger, always wanted to be in music... eventually took some music production and sound engineering classes and saved up money to move to LA and live off for a while.

He is awesome in so many ways. Not only as an assistant engineer but with a lot of other facets... he has been writing a lot of bash, apple and python scripts to automate a lot of the mundane software tasks we have to do (remaining files, tagging metadata, etc). He has been fixing computer problems too.

And because he is older and more mature, he has more patience, more etiquette, and more tenacity and so on...

Anyway... don’t rule yourself out just because you aren’t 21 yrs old. At the end of the day, you get hired at a studio because of what you can do for them, NOT what they can do for you. Younger kids don’t get that and have this “entitlement” attitude. So they sit there expecting the studio to give them amazing projects and high profile gigs but that is not how it happens. The owner and/or chief engineer gets all the cool work, the assistants get all the crap work.

So just remember when looking to work in a studio as an assistant, it’s not about you being an engineer. It’s about you being everything else extremely well so THEY can be the engineer. Are you happy answering phones, cleaning up after sloppy musicians, fixing and maintaining the studio network and email server and storage space? Are you happy to go get ppl lunch and dinner and drop off/pick up their dry cleaning? Are you happy and capable of doing the studio’s social media and marketing? And so on...

Those are the kind of things that get you the job... not a demo reel showing how good you can mix or how great of a tracking engineer you are.
Old 30th April 2018
  #95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
How many people here have listened to enough cello to know what a cello is really supposed to sound like?

If so can you identify the problem in the recording of the cello?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
I know what good snares, guitars, cellos, drums etc sound like, both recorded and live.
So then, if you know what good cello sounds like, please identify the problem with the cello in the multi track you asked all of us to mix for you.

Quote:
That doesn't necessarily mean that I can immediately identify how to fix problems I hear.
In my book it does. If you think you know what a good cello sounds like, but you cannot describe it nor can you ascertain what it is that makes it sound good... and conversely recognize when a cello sounds bad and comparatively why it sounds bad in relation to your recollection of a "good" cello... then you really don't know what a good cello sounds like at all from a sound engineering perspective.

Quote:
I'm not asking professionals here to teach me how to listen to music, or work out what a good sound is
but you are... you just don't know enough to know that you are.

Quote:
I wanted someone to do this (and some have) in order to show me how they dealt with the same problems I faced when mixing this song.
OK, but it is obvious you didn't spot the glaring issue with the cello, so that tells me most of what you did to your mix was just following someone else's "presets" or settings that you maybe read somewhere (maybe even on here) without actually trying to listen to and ascertain what problems need to be addressed.

So the issues I would be dealing with on this mix, you didn't even recognize. so how could my mix help you at all if you can't even hear what I'm hearing? Again it goes back to me saying to an untrained ear it just all ends up being numbers on a sheet or saved into preset.

Mixing is ALL EARS. It is all about what you hear. You can only mix what you hear. If you can't hear something, then you can't mix it. So to be a good mixer you need to spend A LOT of time doing audio ear training.

Quote:
Because there are lessons that can be taken from mixing one song and then applied to another.
If that weren't true, nobody would ever really progress, and there would be no such thing as generic advice, which constitutes a huge part of this forum.
Again you are looking at this like presets. The lessons that can be learned is the EAR TRAINING. Not the settings used. That is what will make you progress, is training your ears.

Quote:
Also, when we talk about what things are 'supposed' to sound like, that can be a very abstract topic.
Yes and no... acoustics is acoustics. That isn't subjective. And if there are problems in the recording that are glaringly obvious, then those are what need to be addressed to get the mix to sound good, first and foremost.

Quote:
Are cellos 'supposed' to sound like they've been put through a distortion pedal?
Why yes actually, they are sometimes. I do this quite often in fact. BUT!!! if there are problems in the recording to begin with it will snowball. The problem in the cello in this particular song will have an even more adverse effect if one were to add distortion to it. So whether or not you send it through a distortion pedal, you'd still need to address this problem before the cello would sound good.

Quote:
Are flutes 'supposed' to be looped endlessly and chopped up rhythmically?
looped and chopped flutes have absolutely nothing to do with the "sound' of the flute and have nothing to do with mixing. That is a production decision, not a mix decision.

Quote:
Who cares, so long as that is the sound you wanted.
But if you could get the sound you wanted, then you wouldn't be here on this board asking us to help you figure out how to get the sound you wanted, now would you?

So again it goes back to ear training.

Am I the only one who sees the irony here. You (the OP) asked for help with your mixing and you wanted all of us to mix this song for you so you could see how we did it... which will actually do nothing to help you improve as a mixer. I come along and start you on your first actual "lesson" for mixing... and you keep avoiding it and refuse to participate in your own lesson, but you keep coming back to wanting to just see the settings of other people's mixes because you somehow think that is going to help you.
Old 30th April 2018
  #96
I know what a good or bad car engine sounds like...doesn't mean I can fix it.
Old 30th April 2018
  #97
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
but you are... you just don't know enough to know that you are.
...
So again it goes back to ear training.

Am I the only one who sees the irony here. You (the OP) asked for help with your mixing and you wanted all of us to mix this song for you so you could see how we did it... which will actually do nothing to help you improve as a mixer. I come along and start you on your first actual "lesson" for mixing... and you keep avoiding it and refuse to participate in your own lesson, but you keep coming back to wanting to just see the settings of other people's mixes because you somehow think that is going to help you.
yes, this.

when I mix, I am essentially whacking moles. I whack the obvious ones first and when they are no longer poking out, I go after the more subtle ones.

I am doing mixing this month with my audio students. One student raised her hand (after about 30 minutes) and said she was "done" with her mix! By that she meant that she had moved faders up and down, panned a few tracks and instantiated a plug-in or two.


Her problem was not that she didn't know what the knobs did, it was that she couldn't hear anything "wrong" with her mix that needed changing. It took me about 10 seconds to give her several hours worth of "stuff to do". How about being able to clearly hear the lead vocal? I can tell them what happens when you turn this knob, but if I am the one who is telling them when to turn it, or how much to turn it, then "they" are not mixing.

Now to be fair, not all of my students are "into" audio, many are just in the Communications Department which covers everything TV, journalism, radio, mass media, etc. but this is why we say not everyone is cut out for mixing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hello people View Post
I know what a good or bad car engine sounds like...doesn't mean I can fix it.
ah, but a car engine's purpose is not to make sound. It's to make the car go. So to a trained mechanic, the sound that it makes might be a clue, a hint, a symptom, but the sound the car makes is not the problem.

In a mix, the wrong sound is the problem, it's not a symptom of a problem, because if it sounds good, it is good. I always tell my students if you can hear what is wrong, or hear in your mind what is missing, if you can auditorily "visualize" what you want, you can fumble with the knobs until you get there. It might take a student longer, more fumbling, but eventually...

OTOH, if you know every single knob, but you don't know what you want, you will never get it.
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Old 1st May 2018
  #98
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post



ah, but a car engine's purpose is not to make sound. It's to make the car go. So to a trained mechanic, the sound that it makes might be a clue, a hint, a symptom, but the sound the car makes is not the problem.
I'm not sure that taking an analogy and dissecting it literally is too helpful. But OK!

Old 1st May 2018
  #99
Lives for gear
 
Quetz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
So then, if you know what good cello sounds like, please identify the problem with the cello in the multi track you asked all of us to mix for you.


In my book it does. If you think you know what a good cello sounds like, but you cannot describe it nor can you ascertain what it is that makes it sound good... and conversely recognize when a cello sounds bad and comparatively why it sounds bad in relation to your recollection of a "good" cello... then you really don't know what a good cello sounds like at all from a sound engineering perspective.


but you are... you just don't know enough to know that you are.


OK, but it is obvious you didn't spot the glaring issue with the cello, so that tells me most of what you did to your mix was just following someone else's "presets" or settings that you maybe read somewhere (maybe even on here) without actually trying to listen to and ascertain what problems need to be addressed.

So the issues I would be dealing with on this mix, you didn't even recognize. so how could my mix help you at all if you can't even hear what I'm hearing? Again it goes back to me saying to an untrained ear it just all ends up being numbers on a sheet or saved into preset.

Mixing is ALL EARS. It is all about what you hear. You can only mix what you hear. If you can't hear something, then you can't mix it. So to be a good mixer you need to spend A LOT of time doing audio ear training.



Again you are looking at this like presets. The lessons that can be learned is the EAR TRAINING. Not the settings used. That is what will make you progress, is training your ears.



Yes and no... acoustics is acoustics. That isn't subjective. And if there are problems in the recording that are glaringly obvious, then those are what need to be addressed to get the mix to sound good, first and foremost.


Why yes actually, they are sometimes. I do this quite often in fact. BUT!!! if there are problems in the recording to begin with it will snowball. The problem in the cello in this particular song will have an even more adverse effect if one were to add distortion to it. So whether or not you send it through a distortion pedal, you'd still need to address this problem before the cello would sound good.

looped and chopped flutes have absolutely nothing to do with the "sound' of the flute and have nothing to do with mixing. That is a production decision, not a mix decision.


But if you could get the sound you wanted, then you wouldn't be here on this board asking us to help you figure out how to get the sound you wanted, now would you?

So again it goes back to ear training.

Am I the only one who sees the irony here. You (the OP) asked for help with your mixing and you wanted all of us to mix this song for you so you could see how we did it... which will actually do nothing to help you improve as a mixer. I come along and start you on your first actual "lesson" for mixing... and you keep avoiding it and refuse to participate in your own lesson, but you keep coming back to wanting to just see the settings of other people's mixes because you somehow think that is going to help you.
When a professional takes the time out of their schedule to write a few hundred words in order to lend a helping hand to a keen amateur, it really does add perspective and is truly appreciated.

For that person to also be a natural teacher is really a blessing, and something I already know I will always be thankful for.

That person, as I'm sure you're aware, isn't you.

The professional I'm talking about, that held an olive branch out to me, has already taught me more and given me more direction in a couple of short emails than I've learned in this entire thread.
The only lesson you've given here, is just how little someone can say in that many words.
I don't use presets, and if you had read my posts properly in this thread, you would have seen that I didn't want anyone to mix this 'for' me.

I just wanted to be able to discuss the problems I faced when mixing this with someone that had more experience, and thought it would have been more helpful if they had the same multi-tracks in front of them rather than try and guess what I was trying to fix.

I was given a sharp reminder, and one that I admit I had coming, not to take the time consummate professionals give for granted, and I have taken that on board.
But all the time and effort that has been put into this thread by people that have offered nothing other than reprimands is quite astounding.
So far I've been told not to complain about a guitar part that had nothing wrong with it, which I disputed, turned out I was right.

Now we've got a professional trying to put an amateur with the usual problematic monitoring environment on the spot in public in an attempt to denigrate them, being told to identify a problem with the cellos, and then told that I can't before I've even been given a chance to respond!

I'm curious to hear what these all-encompassing problems are with the cellos, and I'm sure Mike Senior would like to know too, because he didn't spot them either:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Senior
The cellos were pretty straightforward too, although they did need slightly stiffer EQ to slot them in alongside everything else going on in the mix. I curtailed the low end with 165Hz high-pass filtering and a 7dB peaking cut at 240Hz from ReaEQ, while a certain nasality to the recorded tone (as well as some edginess in the bow noise) was addressed by a fairly localised 7dB cut at 1.4kHz.
Once again, I fed the cellos through a Fairchild 670 emulation to keep them even, using the fastest time-constants (switch position number one) to contain stray peaks and smooth out the note sustains.
My treatment of the cellos, before I even heard Mike's mix, let alone read the article, was to have them high-passed at 136Hz with a 3.8dB cut at 2.1K, with some slight compression, and then I fed them through an amp sim as well to give them some bite as I had them quite upfront.

If this makes me an idiot with bad ears, then fine, I'll take the criticism!

My biggest mistake was to rush out a mix with tired ears without referencing anything, and I certainly won't be doing that again!

You wrote such a worthy post that really gave me a lot of optimism and hope regarding age at time of entry into the field and that was really nice of you.

Why you then decided to follow it up with your last post I don't quite understand, fortunately I have a thick skin and I appreciate that everyone has off-days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG BUDDHA
Be well dressed, be polite, smile and say your keen to learn. tell him you are volunteering your time without payment. show him your just a dead keen young man.

ask if you could assist for a few days. if he likes your persona he might say yes.

he wont put you on with High end clients, as those sessions are not for newbys. He might let you assist with more general works. Bands and the like.

general assistant duties include

making cups of tea.
getting the lunches.
helping the drummer to get the Kit inside
carrying the Bass amp
tidying up the band rooms before recording.
tidying up again after recording. all areas.

if your good at all that, you will move on to setting up the drum mics, console zero duties, pluging in/setting up outboard, mic changes whist recording, and tape OP duties if its a 2 inch studio. also cleaning the heads. etc etc

try to keep a low profile and be verbally quiet once the sessions happening, to allow the engineer and producer to focus. dont get in the way. help in any way you can. smile a lot.

if you get all that right, you may find that eventually doors will open.
That all sounds more than reasonable, even dare I say it - fun - and I wouldn't have expected it to be any other way.
Old 1st May 2018
  #100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
You wrote such a worthy post that really gave me a lot of optimism and hope regarding age at time of entry into the field and that was really nice of you.

Why you then decided to follow it up with your last post I don't quite understand, fortunately I have a thick skin and I appreciate that everyone has off-days.
Are you here to have people stroke your ego and pat you on the back and give you a trophy for trying? Or are you hear to learn?

I wrote both posts because they are the truth. Love it or hate it, reality can have a way of smacking you in the face sometimes.
Old 1st May 2018
  #101
I'd like to know where all this preciousness about a professional's 'time' comes from? I swear, some of you should start to consider walking around with an entourage or have individuals anywhere near your God-like gravitational influence sign agreements where they promise never to look you in the eye, never turn their back on you when exiting a room and to never, ever initiate conversation.

Old 1st May 2018
  #102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
Now we've got a professional trying to put an amateur with the usual problematic monitoring environment on the spot in public in an attempt to denigrate them, being told to identify a problem with the cellos, and then told that I can't before I've even been given a chance to respond!
First... being put on the spot is how you actually learn. Second of all, I gave you three days to listen and respond... you posted replies to other posts... if you are eager to learn, why didn't you listen?

Sorry man... all of that is on you and your own emotional issues. You are not going to go anywhere unless you step up and are willing to make mistakes and admit when you don't know something. If you are willing to ask for help in a public forum, then don't be surprised when you are asked to participate in, and be the example for, your own learning in that public forum.
Old 1st May 2018
  #103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
My treatment of the cellos, before I even heard Mike's mix, let alone read the article, was to have them high-passed at 136Hz with a 3.8dB cut at 2.1K, with some slight compression, and then I fed them through an amp sim as well to give them some bite as I had them quite upfront.
Mike heard the problem and corrected it. You missed it. Can you hear what he heard and why he did what he did?

I personally would disagree with doing a HPF at 136Hz as well as Mikes 165Hz. The cello 1 track plays the lower octave and goes down to a D which is around 75Hz. Rolling off at 136 or even 165 is cutting off the fundamental pitches of the lower notes. The electric bass is playing down in the 40 to 60Hz range, an octave below the cello... so it actually makes the bass guitar feel fatter if you leave the lower octave in the cello since it essentially gives you the bass line in octaves. If you roll that bottom end out of the cello it creates a scoop effect in the bottom end and the bass guitar just doesn't feel as "warm/fat/round/etc" whatever word you want to use.

But the big problem that Mike reacted to, is the big resonance at 260 Hz. Especially on the Cello 2 track. Mike cut at 245Hz, but to my ear it's at 260Hz. Mike's EQ is probably doing a wide enough Q to catch 260Hz in with the dip. Also to my ear, while 7dB of attenuation helps, it really doesn't start going back to sounding like a normal cello until I cut about 20dB. I'm using Fabfilter Pro Q2 and the EQ is set at 260.82Hz, -20.55dB, Q 8.175. Once I get the notch down to around -18dB ~ -20dB it starts to sound the like a cello to me.

If you wanted to use Avid's EQ3 1-band... set it to "notch", set the freq to 260 and set the Q around 1.97. Now listen to the Cello 2 track at 2:06 from the start of the stem file... turn the EQ off and on as it is playing... Can you hear the difference? Without the notch EQ it really doesn't sound good. when opening up the files and listening, the raw tracks just sounded like a mess... as I started to go through to determine what was causing "the mess" as soon as I pulled the cello track up I could hear something in the low mids causing an issue. So when I solo'd it I could hear a REALLY STRONG resonance somewhere between 200Hz and 300Hz... I honed in on it by sweeping the EQ and found it pretty quickly.

Now... will every cello have that resonance at 260Hz? Absolutely not. When I record cello it doesn't have that at all. that is either a resonance in that one particular cello, or it is a resonance based on the size of the room or where the cellist is sitting in the room.

Training your EARs to hear that sort of thing is going to be much more beneficial than reading "I did a cut at 1.3KHz, a boost at 6KHz and a notch at 260Hz". Why? Because you aren't "hearing" why those moves are made. Try to understand the why and when, not the how and what.

Golden Ears

Buy it, study it, learn it, live it, love it... It will probably be the single biggest game changer to your skills as a sound engineer and a mixer if you stick with it, practice it regularly and can really master the materials covered in the series.
Old 1st May 2018
  #104
Etch A Sketch, you're simplifying and debasing what the guy asked in his first post. He never asked for presets or specific frequency values. He simply asked someone with more experience than him to have a go at the same mix and provide feedback about his motivations in the mix. If that feedback turns out to be a thousand words describing the tone and sound of the instruments he hears and what he thinks should be done with them...great. The end.

The thread doesn't need people misinterpreting the simple request and going off on fixated diatribes to the tune of "YOU STUPID LAZY NOOB YOU'LL NEVER LEARN ANYTHING BECAUSE YOU THINK THE EXPERTS ARE GOING TO GIVE YOU THE MAGIC FREQUENCY VALUES".

He never asked for that. That's what you, and others, have said he asked for.

Am I in some dystopian vortex here where there's a race to the death to see who can gnash his teeth the hardest over the slightest of perceived sins??

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Old 1st May 2018
  #105
Quote:
Originally Posted by hello people View Post
Etch A Sketch, you're simplifying and debasing what the guy asked in his first post. He never asked for presets or specific frequency values. He simply asked someone with more experience than him to have a go at the same mix and provide feedback about his motivations in the mix. If that feedback turns out to be a thousand words describing the tone and sound of the instruments he hears and what he thinks should be done with them...great. The end.

The thread doesn't need people misinterpreting the simple request and going off on fixated diatribes to the tune of "YOU STUPID LAZY NOOB YOU'LL NEVER LEARN ANYTHING BECAUSE YOU THINK THE EXPERTS ARE GOING TO GIVE YOU THE MAGIC FREQUENCY VALUES".

He never asked for that. That's what you, and others, have said he asked for.

Am I in some dystopian vortex here where there's a race to the death to see who can gnash his teeth the hardest over the slightest of perceived sins??

Seriously? Snowflakes.

Old 1st May 2018
  #106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Seriously? Snowflakes.

Of course, seriously. And stop calling me Shirley.

Old 1st May 2018
  #107
Lives for gear
 
dights's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
Here's a question though - are studios only looking for fresh-faced recording school grads, or can someone over 30 with the right attitude still get a look-in, or would they shoo me away at the door?

I've always assumed I would be passed over for someone younger, but maybe that's an incorrect assumption.
I did exactly that in London when I was 26/27, so it's achievable... admittedly that was a long time ago, and today there are less studios of that size and more "graduates" jockeying for position.

There's only one way to find out!

Ultimately it depends what you want to do. If you want to be a pro engineer at a big studio, then only having 3 or 4 days a week is quite limiting. A key element to progressing as an assistant is to be very flexible with your hours and availability...

If you just want to learn more about engineering then you have nothing to lose by trying.

To be honest, and on a slightly darker note, my politest advice to anyone who wanted a career in recorded music today as a studio engineer would be to think about another line of sound engineering... there are plenty of others.
Old 1st May 2018
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Training your EARs to hear that sort of thing is going to be much more beneficial than reading "I did a cut at 1.3KHz, a boost at 6KHz and a notch at 260Hz". Why? Because you aren't "hearing" why those moves are made. Try to understand the why and when, not the how and what.

Golden Ears

Buy it, study it, learn it, live it, love it... It will probably be the single biggest game changer to your skills as a sound engineer and a mixer if you stick with it, practice it regularly and can really master the materials covered in the series.
Very solid advice. Thanks for the link. (Bold, ital and underline font in quote above, added by Dana_T.)
Old 1st May 2018
  #109
Lives for gear
 
Quetz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
First... being put on the spot is how you actually learn. Second of all, I gave you three days to listen and respond... you posted replies to other posts... if you are eager to learn, why didn't you listen?
Because I have a JOB that funnily enough I need to hold down in order to slowly and painfully build up the equipment I need.
That job requires me to work all weekend, every weekend, so I'm sorry I couldn't keep up with your schedule - jeez.
I've cut my hours in order to get as much time as I can to put in on this without bankrupting myself.
Honestly, you should be ashamed for glossing over these common problems that people like me face, but we persevere with what we have because we love what it is we're trying to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Mike heard the problem and corrected it. You missed it. Can you hear what he heard and why he did what he did?

I personally would disagree with doing a HPF at 136Hz as well as Mikes 165Hz. The cello 1 track plays the lower octave and goes down to a D which is around 75Hz. Rolling off at 136 or even 165 is cutting off the fundamental pitches of the lower notes. The electric bass is playing down in the 40 to 60Hz range, an octave below the cello... so it actually makes the bass guitar feel fatter if you leave the lower octave in the cello since it essentially gives you the bass line in octaves. If you roll that bottom end out of the cello it creates a scoop effect in the bottom end and the bass guitar just doesn't feel as "warm/fat/round/etc" whatever word you want to use.

But the big problem that Mike reacted to, is the big resonance at 260 Hz. Especially on the Cello 2 track. Mike cut at 245Hz, but to my ear it's at 260Hz. Mike's EQ is probably doing a wide enough Q to catch 260Hz in with the dip. Also to my ear, while 7dB of attenuation helps, it really doesn't start going back to sounding like a normal cello until I cut about 20dB. I'm using Fabfilter Pro Q2 and the EQ is set at 260.82Hz, -20.55dB, Q 8.175. Once I get the notch down to around -18dB ~ -20dB it starts to sound the like a cello to me.
If I was sat in a sonically balanced, acoustically treated room with hi-end monitoring like you, and still couldn't hear anything, then I guess you'd have a point, but are you really so out of touch with the real world that you think we all live in recording studios?

Before you bang on about how I should have all this in place before I begin, I'm paying $1,000 a month for a 12m2 room, which also has to double up as my 'studio'.
I've only had monitor speakers for 2 months, and I'm putting everything in place as fast as I possibly can.
Under these conditions, I hope you can see how ridiculous you berating me for not being able to hone in on the difference between resonance peaks at 260Hz compared to 245Hz is.
My whole room is one damn resonant peak!!

The rest of your advice and the link is all really helpful stuff, and thanks for your own perseverance in posting it, and I mean that.

But you know, you could have just started with "now I know you probably have a less than optimal listening environment, but this is what you should be listening out for:"

That would have made you the bigger man and worthy of respect.

But you chose to tread on me and attempt to make me squirm. So the respect went out the window.

How about trying to put yourself in the shoes of those less fortunate and show a bit of empathy and/or compassion instead of belittling people.
If that's too much to ask, then ok, just don't respond.
Simple really.
Hello People is right.
A lot of people in this thread have been trying to put words into my mouth from the outset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dights View Post
I did exactly that in London when I was 26/27, so it's achievable... admittedly that was a long time ago, and today there are less studios of that size and more "graduates" jockeying for position.

There's only one way to find out!
True!
Big Buddha and yourself (and etch-a-sketch!) have given me more courage to get in there and shout to make myself heard, and I'm going to try and find a way to make this happen.
I wish I could devote 7 days per week, but I don't live with parents and I'm being squeezed to death by London rents like everyone else - having 4 days is a minor miracle, and it's going to have to do for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dights View Post
Ultimately it depends what you want to do. If you want to be a pro engineer at a big studio, then only having 3 or 4 days a week is quite limiting. A key element to progressing as an assistant is to be very flexible with your hours and availability...
Of those 3/4 days I can devote 24 hours from each of them.

I just have to hope that a studio owner somewhere will still see 96 free work hours as decent value.

I guess I see the end result as being more freelance, with some kind of loyalty arrangement with whatever studio decides to bring me up.
Old 1st May 2018
  #110
Man the world has changed........
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Old 1st May 2018
  #111
Lives for gear
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
Because I have a JOB that funnily enough I need to hold down in order to slowly and painfully build up the equipment I need.
That job requires me to work all weekend, every weekend, so I'm sorry I couldn't keep up with your schedule - jeez.
I've cut my hours in order to get as much time as I can to put in on this without bankrupting myself.
Honestly, you should be ashamed for glossing over these common problems that people like me face, but we persevere with what we have because we love what it is we're trying to do.



If I was sat in a sonically balanced, acoustically treated room with hi-end monitoring like you, and still couldn't hear anything, then I guess you'd have a point, but are you really so out of touch with the real world that you think we all live in recording studios?

Before you bang on about how I should have all this in place before I begin, I'm paying $1,000 a month for a 12m2 room, which also has to double up as my 'studio'.
I've only had monitor speakers for 2 months, and I'm putting everything in place as fast as I possibly can.
Under these conditions, I hope you can see how ridiculous you berating me for not being able to hone in on the difference between resonance peaks at 260Hz compared to 245Hz is.
My whole room is one damn resonant peak!!

The rest of your advice and the link is all really helpful stuff, and thanks for your own perseverance in posting it, and I mean that.

But you know, you could have just started with "now I know you probably have a less than optimal listening environment, but this is what you should be listening out for:"

That would have made you the bigger man and worthy of respect.

But you chose to tread on me and attempt to make me squirm. So the respect went out the window.

How about trying to put yourself in the shoes of those less fortunate and show a bit of empathy and/or compassion instead of belittling people.
If that's too much to ask, then ok, just don't respond.
Simple really.
Hello People is right.
A lot of people in this thread have been trying to put words into my mouth from the outset.



True!
Big Buddha and yourself (and etch-a-sketch!) have given me more courage to get in there and shout to make myself heard, and I'm going to try and find a way to make this happen.
I wish I could devote 7 days per week, but I don't live with parents and I'm being squeezed to death by London rents like everyone else - having 4 days is a minor miracle, and it's going to have to do for now.



Of those 3/4 days I can devote 24 hours from each of them.

I just have to hope that a studio owner somewhere will still see 96 free work hours as decent value.

I guess I see the end result as being more freelance, with some kind of loyalty arrangement with whatever studio decides to bring me up.
Grab those cojones and do it! The worst that will happen is they'll say "No".

Make a list of studios near enough that you'd like to work at, then go and see them in person with a CV and a smile.

Make sure you speak to the studio manager and not someone on the studio staff, or your enquiry will likely be filed in the bin
Old 1st May 2018
  #112
Quote:
Originally Posted by nspaas View Post
Man the world has changed........
Sing it soul sister

Old 1st May 2018
  #113
Gear Nut
 

The loss of civility around here has become pretty sad.
Where has common decency gone?
Old 1st May 2018
  #114
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Quetz's Avatar
It seems some people feel it needs to be sacrificed in order for them to keep their competitIve edge.
Of all the reasons for someone not to give advice to someone wanting to improve their craft, "because you'll be financial competition" isn't one I expected to hear.
Maybe that was naive.
Old 1st May 2018
  #115
You guys would never receive the sword of Gryffindor in your time of need.......
Old 1st May 2018
  #116
Lives for gear
 
Quetz's Avatar
Harry Potter references are beyond me (I know, sorry!).

But if it's another dig, even with this thick skin, I need to bow out and just focus on getting the job done.

If anything, I've been given even more motivation to succeed just to be able to come back in a few years and stick it to all the naysayers
Old 1st May 2018
  #117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
If I was sat in a sonically balanced, acoustically treated room with hi-end monitoring like you, and still couldn't hear anything, then I guess you'd have a point, but are you really so out of touch with the real world that you think we all live in recording studios?

Before you bang on about how I should have all this in place before I begin, I'm paying $1,000 a month for a 12m2 room, which also has to double up as my 'studio'.
I've only had monitor speakers for 2 months, and I'm putting everything in place as fast as I possibly can.
Under these conditions, I hope you can see how ridiculous you berating me for not being able to hone in on the difference between resonance peaks at 260Hz compared to 245Hz is.
My whole room is one damn resonant peak!!
Uh... what makes you think I listened to this in my studio A? The studio doesn't have time for me to open the multi track you posted in there. It's a busy fully booked studio! I opened this in my assistant's untreated office and listened on M-Audio speakers and a focusrite solo interface... then I opened it again and listened in our edit bay with NS10s. You don't need a pristine room to hear this stuff, nor do you need a lot of expensive gear.

THE TOOLS DO NOT MAKE THE ENGINEER, THE ENGINEER MAKES THE TOOLS. remember that.

That is the great thing about training your ears... you can hear stuff regardless. You could hear the 260Hz resonance on headphones, you could hear it on cheap Yamaha or Behringer speakers, you could hear it in a completely untreated room or even in a car.

Don't ever try to use gear as an excuse for sub-par performance. In the end, NOBODY ever cares about the process, only the end result. As you work in studios in your area you will start to realize this. You can't attach excuses to every mix you do, there is no "excuses" tag in the ID3 metadata.

The marketing efforts of most manufacturers will have you believe that you cannot make a phenomenal record unless you have all of their shiny and expensive gear. But that is not true at all. The gear does not make the engineer, the engineer makes the gear.

But... it all comes back, once again, to your ears. If you can't understand what you are hearing, then you can't fix it.

Quote:
The rest of your advice and the link is all really helpful stuff, and thanks for your own perseverance in posting it, and I mean that.

But you know, you could have just started with "now I know you probably have a less than optimal listening environment, but this is what you should be listening out for:"

That would have made you the bigger man and worthy of respect.

But you chose to tread on me and attempt to make me squirm. So the respect went out the window.
I'm sorry... who are you again? Why should you be important to me? Just to be clear, I do not care at all about your "respect". I already have more work than I know what to do with, and none of it relies on you. You are the one here asking for help getting work, you are the on here asking for help to get better. Just remember that. I'm not going to sugar coat everything for you and buy you a trophy every time you show up to a thread. Nor will anyone else in this industry. If you think I'm mean... just wait until you start working with famous artists and industry execs. If you can't deal with me, you are never going to be able to deal with most of the clients that walk through the studio door. And that is a fact! The majority of the work you do are going to be talentless, spoiled-brat kids with very rich parents who continually tell the kids how amazing they are even though they are god awful. And you are going to be thrown in the middle of it. And you are going to be expected to take these kids who can't play or sing, and make them sound like bands/artists on the radio. LOL If it's not that, then it's vanity projects where some man or woman made millions in some other industry and now decides they want to become the next michael buble or something... and so they throw 10's of thousands of dollars at their god awful songs, hiring all sorts of musicians, and then they start screeching and squeaking out their vocals... and at the end of it all, they are pissed off at you because their songs are not as good as David Foster's and their voice doesn't sound like John Legend, and they blame you for it... and if only they had hired a better engineer, they would have been able to make a hit record... and you are the one holding them back! and blah, blah, blah...

Oh and then if you decide you want to do hiphop/rap... you get the guys that think they are god's gift to the world with Kanye sized egos... and want you to record edit and mix their next "hit record" for $30 including all the studio time. Yet they have no sense of rhythm, can't hear the beat to save their lives, have no idea how to rhyme, and at the end of it all, stiff you on the bill anyway...

And the stiffing you on the bill still holds true even when the artists are big. I did work for artists on Universal and artists on Capitol where I am owed thousands of dollar and have never been paid.... and it's now been 15 years since I did the work.

The said reality is these scenarios are literally going to be 98% of the work you get. The other 2% are the awesome ones that you will love doing.

Quote:
How about trying to put yourself in the shoes of those less fortunate and show a bit of empathy and/or compassion instead of belittling people.
I'm sorry... do you think I was born a successful sound engineer? you think I came into this world with a U47 and a pair of PMC monitors in my hands?

No...

When I moved to LA I knew literally nobody. Not a single person. Had no job prospects. Had no income whatsoever. "Put myself in the shoes of those less fortunate"??? I lived that life for year and years. I was there... and that is why I am the way I am. Everything I have I worked my ass off for, and still do.

What "training" for this career... you shouldn't be training for the best day you'll ever have... you should be training for the worst day you'll ever have. If you do actually go into this industry and make it to working full time... after a couple years you will think back to this thread and realize what I've said and done in here is 100% spot on.

Nobody is going to hand anything to you. nobody is going to be nice to you. If you are looking for people to hand you stuff and be nice to you, go join an emotional support group.

Quote:
A lot of people in this thread have been trying to put words into my mouth from the outset.
Am I not quoting you every time I respond? How am I putting words in your mouth if I'm literally quoting what you typed???



Quote:
Big Buddha and yourself (and etch-a-sketch!) have given me more courage to get in there and shout to make myself heard, and I'm going to try and find a way to make this happen.
I wish I could devote 7 days per week, but I don't live with parents and I'm being squeezed to death by London rents like everyone else - having 4 days is a minor miracle, and it's going to have to do for now.
One of the things about working in a studio most people don't realize... most studios do not actually have a lot of staff outside of runners and assistants. With the exception of the really big studios, most studios will not promote you past assistant. After you've been an assistant for a few years, it's expected that you quit and go freelance and then you start bringing work back into the studio because you are very familiar with it.

I say this so that maybe it sparks an idea for you. No studio is going to say no to money as long as it is their normal rate... what if you were to find bands on your own that have money and are looking to record? You bring them into the studio as a freelance engineer yourself?

A guy I went to college with did that out here in LA with a lot of success. He was a bass player and was in several bands... they all wanted to record demos to try and get more gigs around town. Since he went to school for sound engineering he convinced all the bands to save up enough money to go into one of the really good recording studios here in LA (The Village Recorders) and he would engineer it for free. All the bands saved up and pooled their money and each was ready to go in and record and mix... so he scheduled them all back to back in the studio... so he ended up basically taking up residency at the Village for a couple weeks while he recorded and mixed all of his bands...

while he was there... he was talking to people in the kitchen and hallways. Nelly was in one of the other studios recording one of his albums (it was either Country Grammar or Nellyville, I forget which)... one day while Nelly was recording the skits that he was putting between some of the tracks on the album, his sound engineer got really sick and had to leave... Nelly's producer was talking to my friend in the kitchen and asked if he could step in and record some of these. So he did... and then the producer asked him to finish up those recordings for Nelly a few days later... and then that producer started working on a Janet Jackson album and asked my friend to record some of that... and then it just snowballed from there.

Anyway... there is never just "one" way to break into the industry. If you talk to 100 people who are currently working in the industry you'll probably get 80 to 100 completely different stories as to how they got their start.


Quote:
Of those 3/4 days I can devote 24 hours from each of them.

I just have to hope that a studio owner somewhere will still see 96 free work hours as decent value.

I guess I see the end result as being more freelance, with some kind of loyalty arrangement with whatever studio decides to bring me up.
You will make more money being freelance anyway... Even though you see it as having 96 hours of free time to work in a studio... the studio doesn't "create" the work... the studio is relying on it's clientele for work. So if the clientele isn't willing to work late or whatever, then it's not really 96 hours of time for you to work. Out of the 3/4 days you have available, it might just work out that sessions are only scheduled on those days and times 30% of the time... you never know. At least here in the US, most of the time the studios that are working until all hours in the morning are the urban/hiphop studios. A lot of the other studios, even though they are open 24hrs, are usually only booked during the day.

But London might be different. My only experience with recording in London was at Abbey Road, so that is probably not indicative of what it is like to record at most of the other studios in London. Because we were using union musicians at Abbey Road, it was very regimented time-wise. Bands and indie artists aren't going to have those constraints so you might find a lot of London studios are booked up at night too? Who knows... BUT!!! If they aren't... that could be an opportunity for you! If a studio is consistently open at night and is unbooked... see if you can start bringing bands in... see if they might give you a little bit of an "off hours discount". If the studio is usually sitting there unused anyway, they might as well make some money than no money, right? Just so long as you cover the studio's costs for the time you are there and then a little more, they probably won't say no.

But I do say this under the assumption, as you have said, that you have some experience as a sound engineer. most studios will be skeptical about letting an unknown engineer come in and work there until they have vetted you. At first you might need an assistant from the studio there to handle the mics and stuff... as an insurance policy against you accidentally blowing up a U67 or something. But over time, once they know you know what you are doing... they'll probably just give you the run of the place. That is what several studios here in LA did after I was continuously booking them for a little while. They would just open the studio and tell me to lock up when I was done.
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Old 1st May 2018
  #118
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@Etch-A-Sketch , man I feel your pain as well as your frustration on what it takes. It took age and 5 grand-kids for me to simple say OK and bow-out after the first 5 or 6 responses were challenged or maybe misunderstood or even ignored. Just so you guys know, this bickering has now made its way into another thread, where someone is frustrated with their mixing abilities as well. It truly does suck! All I did was advise the OP to upload his stems.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #119
Lives for gear
 
dights's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Uh... what makes you think I listened to this in my studio A? The studio doesn't have time for me to open the multi track you posted in there. It's a busy fully booked studio! I opened this in my assistant's untreated office and listened on M-Audio speakers and a focusrite solo interface... then I opened it again and listened in our edit bay with NS10s. You don't need a pristine room to hear this stuff, nor do you need a lot of expensive gear.

THE TOOLS DO NOT MAKE THE ENGINEER, THE ENGINEER MAKES THE TOOLS. remember that.

That is the great thing about training your ears... you can hear stuff regardless. You could hear the 260Hz resonance on headphones, you could hear it on cheap Yamaha or Behringer speakers, you could hear it in a completely untreated room or even in a car.

Don't ever try to use gear as an excuse for sub-par performance. In the end, NOBODY ever cares about the process, only the end result. As you work in studios in your area you will start to realize this. You can't attach excuses to every mix you do, there is no "excuses" tag in the ID3 metadata.

The marketing efforts of most manufacturers will have you believe that you cannot make a phenomenal record unless you have all of their shiny and expensive gear. But that is not true at all. The gear does not make the engineer, the engineer makes the gear.

But... it all comes back, once again, to your ears. If you can't understand what you are hearing, then you can't fix it.



I'm sorry... who are you again? Why should you be important to me? Just to be clear, I do not care at all about your "respect". I already have more work than I know what to do with, and none of it relies on you. You are the one here asking for help getting work, you are the on here asking for help to get better. Just remember that. I'm not going to sugar coat everything for you and buy you a trophy every time you show up to a thread. Nor will anyone else in this industry. If you think I'm mean... just wait until you start working with famous artists and industry execs. If you can't deal with me, you are never going to be able to deal with most of the clients that walk through the studio door. And that is a fact! The majority of the work you do are going to be talentless, spoiled-brat kids with very rich parents who continually tell the kids how amazing they are even though they are god awful. And you are going to be thrown in the middle of it. And you are going to be expected to take these kids who can't play or sing, and make them sound like bands/artists on the radio. LOL If it's not that, then it's vanity projects where some man or woman made millions in some other industry and now decides they want to become the next michael buble or something... and so they throw 10's of thousands of dollars at their god awful songs, hiring all sorts of musicians, and then they start screeching and squeaking out their vocals... and at the end of it all, they are pissed off at you because their songs are not as good as David Foster's and their voice doesn't sound like John Legend, and they blame you for it... and if only they had hired a better engineer, they would have been able to make a hit record... and you are the one holding them back! and blah, blah, blah...

Oh and then if you decide you want to do hiphop/rap... you get the guys that think they are god's gift to the world with Kanye sized egos... and want you to record edit and mix their next "hit record" for $30 including all the studio time. Yet they have no sense of rhythm, can't hear the beat to save their lives, have no idea how to rhyme, and at the end of it all, stiff you on the bill anyway...

And the stiffing you on the bill still holds true even when the artists are big. I did work for artists on Universal and artists on Capitol where I am owed thousands of dollar and have never been paid.... and it's now been 15 years since I did the work.

The said reality is these scenarios are literally going to be 98% of the work you get. The other 2% are the awesome ones that you will love doing.


I'm sorry... do you think I was born a successful sound engineer? you think I came into this world with a U47 and a pair of PMC monitors in my hands?

No...

When I moved to LA I knew literally nobody. Not a single person. Had no job prospects. Had no income whatsoever. "Put myself in the shoes of those less fortunate"??? I lived that life for year and years. I was there... and that is why I am the way I am. Everything I have I worked my ass off for, and still do.

What "training" for this career... you shouldn't be training for the best day you'll ever have... you should be training for the worst day you'll ever have. If you do actually go into this industry and make it to working full time... after a couple years you will think back to this thread and realize what I've said and done in here is 100% spot on.

Nobody is going to hand anything to you. nobody is going to be nice to you. If you are looking for people to hand you stuff and be nice to you, go join an emotional support group.


Am I not quoting you every time I respond? How am I putting words in your mouth if I'm literally quoting what you typed???





One of the things about working in a studio most people don't realize... most studios do not actually have a lot of staff outside of runners and assistants. With the exception of the really big studios, most studios will not promote you past assistant. After you've been an assistant for a few years, it's expected that you quit and go freelance and then you start bringing work back into the studio because you are very familiar with it.

I say this so that maybe it sparks an idea for you. No studio is going to say no to money as long as it is their normal rate... what if you were to find bands on your own that have money and are looking to record? You bring them into the studio as a freelance engineer yourself?

A guy I went to college with did that out here in LA with a lot of success. He was a bass player and was in several bands... they all wanted to record demos to try and get more gigs around town. Since he went to school for sound engineering he convinced all the bands to save up enough money to go into one of the really good recording studios here in LA (The Village Recorders) and he would engineer it for free. All the bands saved up and pooled their money and each was ready to go in and record and mix... so he scheduled them all back to back in the studio... so he ended up basically taking up residency at the Village for a couple weeks while he recorded and mixed all of his bands...

while he was there... he was talking to people in the kitchen and hallways. Nelly was in one of the other studios recording one of his albums (it was either Country Grammar or Nellyville, I forget which)... one day while Nelly was recording the skits that he was putting between some of the tracks on the album, his sound engineer got really sick and had to leave... Nelly's producer was talking to my friend in the kitchen and asked if he could step in and record some of these. So he did... and then the producer asked him to finish up those recordings for Nelly a few days later... and then that producer started working on a Janet Jackson album and asked my friend to record some of that... and then it just snowballed from there.

Anyway... there is never just "one" way to break into the industry. If you talk to 100 people who are currently working in the industry you'll probably get 80 to 100 completely different stories as to how they got their start.




You will make more money being freelance anyway... Even though you see it as having 96 hours of free time to work in a studio... the studio doesn't "create" the work... the studio is relying on it's clientele for work. So if the clientele isn't willing to work late or whatever, then it's not really 96 hours of time for you to work. Out of the 3/4 days you have available, it might just work out that sessions are only scheduled on those days and times 30% of the time... you never know. At least here in the US, most of the time the studios that are working until all hours in the morning are the urban/hiphop studios. A lot of the other studios, even though they are open 24hrs, are usually only booked during the day.

But London might be different. My only experience with recording in London was at Abbey Road, so that is probably not indicative of what it is like to record at most of the other studios in London. Because we were using union musicians at Abbey Road, it was very regimented time-wise. Bands and indie artists aren't going to have those constraints so you might find a lot of London studios are booked up at night too? Who knows... BUT!!! If they aren't... that could be an opportunity for you! If a studio is consistently open at night and is unbooked... see if you can start bringing bands in... see if they might give you a little bit of an "off hours discount". If the studio is usually sitting there unused anyway, they might as well make some money than no money, right? Just so long as you cover the studio's costs for the time you are there and then a little more, they probably won't say no.

But I do say this under the assumption, as you have said, that you have some experience as a sound engineer. most studios will be skeptical about letting an unknown engineer come in and work there until they have vetted you. At first you might need an assistant from the studio there to handle the mics and stuff... as an insurance policy against you accidentally blowing up a U67 or something. But over time, once they know you know what you are doing... they'll probably just give you the run of the place. That is what several studios here in LA did after I was continuously booking them for a little while. They would just open the studio and tell me to lock up when I was done.
A lot of bitterness and hatred in that post, unfortunately a large part of which I have experienced and understand... hence my previous statement of:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dights View Post
To be honest, and on a slightly darker note, my politest advice to anyone who wanted a career in recorded music today as a studio engineer would be to think about another line of sound engineering... there are plenty of others.
However a lot of the attitude you have portrayed I spent a long time fighting against once I had "made it".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Nobody is going to hand anything to you. nobody is going to be nice to you. If you are looking for people to hand you stuff and be nice to you, go join an emotional support group.
Actually having worked my way up the ranks of a large studio you know the people I remember? It's the ones who did exactly that... the ones who were nice, who helped, and were inspiring.

They were definitely in the minority in the studio culture, but amongst those people who were nice, helped and inspired me were the odd big name you wouldn't expect.

Classic music industry though... for every one of those there are hundreds who would stand on your head as you drowned.

Isn't there a Hunter S. Thompson misquote that has been appropriated to encompass this?
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Old 2nd May 2018
  #120
Lives for gear
 
Quetz's Avatar
Thanks dights, my jaw actually dropped at that post, not in anger, just sheer surprise at the level of resentment and bitterness.

I can of course understand it. But to take it out on someone like me, and in public, what's the point.

It's a shame because Derek seems to be almost bi-polar in the way his posts read - super helpful and really insightful in one paragraph, then crossover to almost hysterical anger and bitterness, then back to being super helpful, calm and logical again.

Professionally speaking, I'm surprised that someone of Derek's calibre would talk about his paying clients like that in public.
If those comments were to be linked to him in other arenas, I would be surprised if his business didn't suffer?
Maybe that's also naïve, I dunno.

But as someone that considers himself to be reasonable and logical (and my job requires me to be coldly objective and analytical at the same time as encouraging the other party to be exactly the opposite (and no, I'm not a lady of the night ), I want to skip over the negative stuff and reply to some of his more salient points.

The resonant peaks he talks about, I am happy to say ok, so this is one of those things where like I said, I can identify that it's not perfect, but I would be hunting around for the fix whereas those with more experience will just listen and say yep, that's somewhere in the 260Hz region.

I'm going to get that Golden Ears book he recommended because it sounds like an incredibly valuable tool/training resource.

He's also made some really interesting points about studio hours and working the angles, of which there are many.

I especially am on board with the idea of basically turning my hand to the A&R/Production role as it were, in terms of hunting down bands good enough to record demos - it's not as if London has a shortage of unknown or very early stage up and coming musical talent.

I am not at the level where I would feel confident just rocking up at a studio and doing a session, but the whole point of this is to get to that stage as soon as humanly possible, and it will simply take too long if I am both teacher and student.

And I need to be getting experience in a studio in order to feel confident about running sessions.

I work at a higher-end photography studio in London and am responsible for turning their shoots into cold hard cash.
I'm very good at it and my pay is directly correlated to how much I bring in, which is why I can afford (just, as mentioned before!) to only work 3 days per week, and to be honest it's quite intense so I doubt I'd want to do more than 3 days anyway.

In the past I've managed restaurants and hotels and I'm very much a client-facing operator, so I believe I would be an asset to any studio, it's just getting that foot in the door when you're a completely unknown quantity, but the encouragement I've had in this thread and the experiences that have been shared easily overshadow all the negativity, even within the context of one of Derek's posts, and it is valuable info and advice.
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