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Help With studio Monitors and placement for room
Old 15th March 2018
  #1
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Help With studio Monitors and placement for room

Hello, I am new to the forum. Been producing for a few years. I have a small studio set up in my room. I currently own rockit 5s, rockit 8s and a 10" rockit sub. I have the 8s and 10 set up currently. The 8s are right against my wall and the sub is behind my computer monitor. My room is 13'x13' (plus a doorway and closet with curtain which is approx 3.5'x13') I have some stuff in my room. On the wall opposite of my desk is a sofa & shelf with aquarium (shelf is at least halfway in the doorway so is not directly across from my desk. To the left of the desk about 3-4 feet away is my closet with curtain and on the right side is a 4' grow tent, with a foot or two of space between. I am trying to figure out what i should do differently so that i am working with what i have to its full potential in my situation. I was recently reading that 8" monitors in a small room is overkill due to to much low end, especially if i also have a sub. I was trying to figure out if i should switch to my 5s instead and use them with my sub.? So that is my main question, but also looking for any tips to get the best acoustics possible. Also wondering if i setup my 5s, should i use some stands and try to get the speakers further from the wall?I also have some cheap studio foam, but i have no idea where to hang it. I feel like my closet and window dont allow many options for that. ask me anything you need to know if it would better help you to help me. Thanks guys
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Help With studio Monitors and placement for room-img_20180314_162851922.jpg   Help With studio Monitors and placement for room-img_20180314_162905687.jpg   Help With studio Monitors and placement for room-img_20180314_162950500.jpg   Help With studio Monitors and placement for room-img_20180314_163053428.jpg   Help With studio Monitors and placement for room-img_20180314_163443574.jpg  

Old 15th March 2018
  #2
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FreshProduce's Avatar
You need to rearrange your room brother.

Your monitors being right up against the wall will create unwanted wall noise. Also, that cabinet next to your desk will create an unbalanced stereo image. This will affect nearly everything you do in mixing.

Your monitors should be a foot.. foot and a half from the wall. It's good to put your setup in the middle of the short wall in a rectangular room. Given your room, it doesn't matter what wall as long as there's nothing on either side that would disrupt the image.

Preferably, you want a closet behind you to act as a bass trap

Hope this is helpful.. I'd leave more but I'm at a doctors office
Old 15th March 2018
  #3
Your studio monitors need go at least 3 feet away from the back wall. going right up against it or even 1 foot away from it, is not good
Old 15th March 2018
  #4
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FreshProduce's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
Your studio monitors need go at least 3 feet away from the back wall. going right up against it or even 1 foot away from it, is not good
This just isn't true.
1.5 is more than enough space for this guys setup. He's not in a zero'd out control room.. He's in a small, untreated bedroom. If he posts up 3 feet from his wall, he'll be in the middle of his room.
Old 15th March 2018
  #5
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Speakers close to the front wall is actually a good idea in many small rooms. Look up SBIR. This has a good summary of the basics: https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...guide_2017.pdf

If you want to get more in depth head over to the acoustics forum:
Acoustics/Treatment Reference Guide - LOOK HERE!
Old 15th March 2018
  #6
Quote:
This just isn't true.
ITs Fact. of course its true. Google it. also, go look at any studio that has recorded anything professionally for any respectable label.

Here are the FACTS: Scientific FACTS. This is Science, not my opinion.

Close proximity to the wall can boost the low frequencies as much as 3dB — which can make your mixes sound huge. The problem is that when you take those mixes outside of your room, they don’t have much bass. Why? Because you’re hearing the bass buildup in the room, not the “real” bass coming out of the speakers. Place the speakers a minimum of 6 to 10 inches away from the wall — 2-3 feet is better; this will minimize bass buildup from the front wall.

As a rough rule of thumb, it’s usually best to keep the speaker within 1 meters of the back wall, to push any notches up above about 80Hz and into a region where back-wall reflections can be controlled reasonably well by conventional bass-trapping treatments. The real danger zone is when the speaker is between 1 and 2.5 meters from the back wall, as this can result in substantial notches between about 35 and 80 Hz, which require more complex bass-trapping techniques to resolve. A back-wall spacing of more than 2.5 meters puts the notches below the lowest usable audio frequencies, so it’s not really a problem any more.

Another consideration is the way in which the speaker’s position stimulates the room’s standing waves. Often, moving the speaker a few centimetres forwards or backwards, side to side, or even up and down, can have a dramatic effect on how it interacts with the room and the resulting consistency of the bass response
Old 15th March 2018
  #7
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Old 15th March 2018
  #8
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FreshProduce's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
ITs Fact. of course its true. Google it. also, go look at any studio that has recorded anything professionally for any respectable label.

Here are the FACTS: Scientific FACTS. This is Science, not my opinion.

Close proximity to the wall can boost the low frequencies as much as 3dB — which can make your mixes sound huge. The problem is that when you take those mixes outside of your room, they don’t have much bass. Why? Because you’re hearing the bass buildup in the room, not the “real” bass coming out of the speakers. Place the speakers a minimum of 6 to 10 inches away from the wall — 2-3 feet is better; this will minimize bass buildup from the front wall.

As a rough rule of thumb, it’s usually best to keep the speaker within 1 meters of the back wall, to push any notches up above about 80Hz and into a region where back-wall reflections can be controlled reasonably well by conventional bass-trapping treatments. The real danger zone is when the speaker is between 1 and 2.5 meters from the back wall, as this can result in substantial notches between about 35 and 80 Hz, which require more complex bass-trapping techniques to resolve. A back-wall spacing of more than 2.5 meters puts the notches below the lowest usable audio frequencies, so it’s not really a problem any more.

Another consideration is the way in which the speaker’s position stimulates the room’s standing waves. Often, moving the speaker a few centimetres forwards or backwards, side to side, or even up and down, can have a dramatic effect on how it interacts with the room and the resulting consistency of the bass response
Im not sure what part of your comment addresses my mentioning the size of this guys room. I'll say it again, he is not in a professional studio.

He is in a bedroom.

3 feet out puts him in the center of his room.

Are you saying that mixing in the center of a room is a good idea?

Your scientific facts regarding professional procedure do not apply to everyone being that not everyone is a professional who expects a certain standard
Old 15th March 2018
  #9
freshproduce: Does he havev Genelecs? and as i said before, its science, not my opinion.

I will state the FACTS again that have been VERIFIED by people (scientist, physics, audio engineers) a lot smarter than me:

Close proximity to the wall can boost the low frequencies as much as 3dB — which can make your mixes sound huge. The problem is that when you take those mixes outside of your room, they don’t have much bass. Why? Because you’re hearing the bass buildup in the room, not the “real” bass coming out of the speakers. Place the speakers a minimum of 6 to 10 inches away from the wall — 2-3 feet is better; this will minimize bass buildup from the front wall.

So if you want a false bass build up and not have your mixes sound good (translate) on all sound sysytems, then do what FRESHPRODUCE says.

Quote:
He is in a bedroom.

3 feet out puts him in the center of his room.

Are you saying that mixing in the center of a room is a good idea?
You need to pay attention to details. He states in his 1st post his room is 13 by 13, by 6 by 6.
So how in the world would this put him in the middle??


Dropping mic and walking away
Old 15th March 2018
  #10
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FreshProduce's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
freshproduce: Does he havev Genelecs? and as i said before, its science, not my opinion.

I will state the FACTS again that have been VERIFIED by people (scientist, physics, audio engineers) a lot smarter than me:

Close proximity to the wall can boost the low frequencies as much as 3dB — which can make your mixes sound huge. The problem is that when you take those mixes outside of your room, they don’t have much bass. Why? Because you’re hearing the bass buildup in the room, not the “real” bass coming out of the speakers. Place the speakers a minimum of 6 to 10 inches away from the wall — 2-3 feet is better; this will minimize bass buildup from the front wall.

So if you want a false bass build up and not have your mixes sound good (translate) on all sound sysytems, then do what FRESHPRODUCE says.

Dropping mic and walking away
You're ignorant if you can't understand how changing one variable (room size) will affect the 'facts' you have stated. Your facts are based around a certain standard. A standard in which the OP is clearly miles away from. 3 feet plus his desk puts him in the middle of the room

*unparticipates*
Old 15th March 2018
  #11
Quote:
You're ignorant.
An this is how you rebut when you do not have facts on your side, you just call the person stupid. LOL

By the way, your reported
Old 15th March 2018
  #12
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stella645's Avatar
 

I'd suggest OP tries his luck n the Studio Build and Acoustics sub forum where the advisors may at least agree with themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
at least 3 feet away from the back wall. going right up against it or even 1 foot away from it, is not good
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
a minimum of 6 to 10 inches away from the wall — 2-3 feet is better
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
keep the speaker within 1 meters of the back wall ....... The real danger zone is when the speaker is between 1 and 2.5 meters from the back wall
Old 15th March 2018
  #13
Quote:
You're ignorant if you can't understand how changing one variable (room size) will affect the 'facts' you have stated.
this is exactly what you cannot understand as its to complicated for you to comprehend. its beyond your interlect.

And your still stating that 3 feet will put you in the middle of the room that is 13 by 13 is so freaking hilarious.. LOL
Quote:
3 feet plus his desk puts him in the middle of the room
how would you even understand the physics of room acoustics. It doesn't matter about the desk. Its about getting your room to sound as good as possible so it translates well. when some one tunes their room, they put there desk ware the sound will be its best. If you want the best sound ,you do what you need to do ,not put your desk against the wall.

So you are saying looks are better than sound You would rather have a lot of bass build up and have your songs not translate on other sound systems for the looks. Ok then..

My desk is 6 feet from the front wall, as i did what it takes to get the flattest frequency response for my room.
Old 15th March 2018
  #14
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stella645's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post

You do realize that 3 plus 3 = 6, not 13.
In a 13 foot long room the middle of the room is 6.5ft ffs.
Old 15th March 2018
  #15
Quote:
In a 13 foot long room the middle of the room is 6.5ft ffs.
Exaclty ,someone can do math. BRAVO!! But how would putting your monitors 3 feet from the front wall put them in the middle of the room??
Old 15th March 2018
  #16
Quote:
Are you saying that mixing in the center of a room is a good idea?
Yes, its a FANTASTIC idea, if that gets your frequency responce as flat as possible!!
If you have a room for mixing, then you need it to translate well.

If it takes you 8 steps to reach your goal, then why stop of 4 steps? If having your desk in the middle is the best option, then thats what you do. You do not settle, unless your that type that likes to settle
Old 15th March 2018
  #17
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stella645's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
Exaclty ,someone can do math. BRAVO!! But how would putting your monitors 3 feet from the front wall put them in the middle of the room??
I was answering the point YOU posted that 3 feet from wall plus a 3 foot desk did not equal 13. Now where that the case then he would indeed be 6 inches from the centre of the room....the listener...not the speakers which is what the other guy was saying.
Old 15th March 2018
  #18
Quote:
I was answering the point YOU posted that 3 feet from wall plus a 3 foot desk did not equal 13. Now where that the case then he would indeed be 6 inches from the centre of the room....the listener...not the speakers which is what the other guy was saying.
No problem, its cool.

Im just saying it doesn't matter if the desk is in the middle of the room or off center or to the right. What matters is the sound, because we are producing sound and most of us want it accurate. We want an accurate representation inside our studio, so it translates well outside the studio.

I lost 6 feet of my room so it can be acoustically tuned the right way. Ware your desk is is not important. Its the sound you hear that is important
Old 16th March 2018
  #19
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Okay, Thanks for the replys. I am going to start by moving my desk and monitors out a few feet. I want to keep my desk against the same wall that it is on now. but the closet is on one side which has a lot of corners and crevices, so was thinking maybe i should move the desk in front of my window directly in the center, and i would move everything on either side of the desk. would that be better? I also want to build some bass traps. what is more important, having bass traps on the wall front and back of the monitors or side to side?
Old 16th March 2018
  #20
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[QUOTE=CJ Mastering;13201625]this is exactly what you cannot understand as its to complicated for you to comprehend. its beyond your interlect.

And your still stating that 3 feet will put you in the middle of the room that is 13 by 13 is so freaking hilarious.. LOL

The desk is about 4 feet front to back so in a way hes right dude, if i did that i would be sitting in the middle of the room 8 feet or so out from the wall. No big deal though. ill do what i need to do once i learn more about what the best setup would be
Old 16th March 2018
  #21
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I'd recommend asking your questions in the acoustics part of the forum. You will get better advice.
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...ing-acoustics/
Old 16th March 2018
  #22
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stella645's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteralShr3d View Post
No big deal though. ill do what i need to do once i learn more about what the best setup would be
If there's any way you can move the tent, speakers as close as possible to the window might be a good starting point. The glass will let through some low end giving you some free bass trapping of sorts. Honestly in this room it is pointless trying to move speakers away from the wall.

You might also argue this is closer to pointing down the length of the room which is usually the better option as your closet with curtain adds some length.

Really there is no way to know the best position without measuring your room response and small rooms are never going to be that good without significant acosutic treatment (deep rockwool traps rather than foam), but if you're looking to make the best of what you have I would try the window and then use the foam at first reflection points.

As explorer says you should check the studio build and acoustics sub forum. Even without posting there is a lot you can learn by reading a few existing threads pertaining to small spaces.
Old 16th March 2018
  #23
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stella645 View Post
I'd suggest OP tries his luck n the Studio Build and Acoustics sub forum where the advisors may at least agree with themselves.
I like how he never responded to this post...

To the OP

I would highly recommend getting some proper acoustic treatment in that room. Even a couple of OC703/Rockwool panels mounted in the corners will do a lot more for you than that foam crap. You can build 6 panels for about $150, less if you plan it right.
Old 16th March 2018
  #24
Quote:
The desk is about 4 feet front to back so in a way hes right dude, if i did that i would be sitting in the middle of the room 8 feet or so out from the wall. No big deal though.
No, no big deal. If you want to hear the true sound, you set up your desk in the best spot. If that best spot puts you in the center of you room, that is ware you sit.
I cannot for the life of me understand why you cannot comprehend this..

Are we setting up a room for mixing or to look at and show off? Who care wares you sit, what matters is how your ears hear the sound. You're mixing music, not settign up the room for an art show.
Old 16th March 2018
  #25
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stella645's Avatar
 

@ LiteralShr3d

Middle of the room will have the most low freq nulling, typically it's a very bad place for listening position as I suspect you know already.
Old 16th March 2018
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
If you want to hear the true sound, you set up your desk in the best spot.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
If that best spot puts you in the center of you room, that is ware you sit.
The best spot is extremely unlikely to be the centre of the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm
"All rectangular rooms have a deep bass null at the halfway points - halfway between the front and rear walls, halfway between the left and right sides, and halfway between the floor and ceiling. Therefore, the worst place to sit is exactly halfway back in the room, with your ears halfway between the floor and ceiling. There's also a null halfway between the left and right walls, but symmetry is needed for good stereo imaging so most setups are centered left-right. Having bass traps in the room helps to minimize the bass null."
RealTraps - How To Set Up a Room

Last edited by explorer; 16th March 2018 at 04:13 PM..
Old 16th March 2018
  #27
Quote:
The best spot is extremely unlikely to be the centre of the room.
And you know this how? Have you taken measurements with a calibrated mic in this room? Its so irresponsible for you to say this!!

Whats are the measurements you got from having the speakers 3 feet from the wall compared to 1 foot from the wall in this specific room?

Ware are your FACTS?
Old 16th March 2018
  #28
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Lumbergh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
And you know this how?
Because every room mode in a rectangular space has either a peak or a null at the centre of the room.
Old 16th March 2018
  #29
Quote:
Because every room mode in a rectangular space has either a peak or a null at the centre of the room.
Now you are just talking out your rear end and arguing for the sake of arguing. Your room acoustics depends on hundreds of variables. Room shape is just one of a hundred variables.
if you new anything about the physics of room acoustics, you would know about that
Next!!

Also, the speakers are not in the center, so even if that was true and its not, the speakers, because of ware they are located will not be in the center
Old 16th March 2018
  #30
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I have observed and measured in my own rooms that half way back is a bad place to sit for low frequency response. GIK acoustics,Realtraps and acoustician JH Brandt also seem to agree with me:

"You’ll definitely want to avoid being in the center of the length of the room"
The Basics of Room Acoustics and How to Set Up A Room -

"The worst place to sit is exactly halfway back in the room"
RealTraps - How To Set Up a Room

"NOT facing the short wall usually will place the listener in the CENTER of the room, which is a very bad place to try to get accuracy in the low frequencies."
Acoustics/Treatment Reference Guide - LOOK HERE!

I suppose there may be a situation where half way back is best. I'd be interested to see some measurements from a room like this. Or an article/academic paper that recommends it. Please do share.
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