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But it is impossible to record at -18DBFS RMS
Old 10th January 2017
  #1
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But it is impossible to record at -18DBFS RMS

they say you should record @ this level because old VU meters were RMS meters and 0VU (which is now -18DBFS)was the target. But every source I record at this level peaks into almost clipping territory and this is not even drums or transient type stuff so what is this RMS bollocks then? (FYI I am using the RMS meter in cubase)
Old 10th January 2017
  #2
So much confusion....can't say I blame you, but it's certainly not bollocks!

VU is NOT RMS - similar, but not the same.

0dBVU is NOT -18dBFS. That's one possible lineup, but not the only one. -20, -16, -14, -12 all common.

Don't stress it too much. Use peak meters, not RMS for now. Aim for steady signals (eg synth pads, driven guitars, and so on) to hover around the -18dBFS mark. Peaks can go a lot higher, but it's worth leaving 6-10dB of headroom.

Now - you won't ever peak if you're leaving that headroom, and when you come to mix you should find faders don't have to be cranked right down. If you track steady signals a bit hot - don't worry! Just clip gain down your audio regions so you're hitting your plugins at a reasonable level.

Above all listen.
Old 10th January 2017
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
So much confusion....can't say I blame you, but it's certainly not bollocks!

VU is NOT RMS - similar, but not the same.

0dBVU is NOT -18dBFS. That's one possible lineup, but not the only one. -20, -16, -14, -12 all common.

Don't stress it too much. Use peak meters, not RMS for now. Aim for steady signals (eg synth pads, driven guitars, and so on) to hover around the -18dBFS mark. Peaks can go a lot higher, but it's worth leaving 6-10dB of headroom.

Now - you won't ever peak if you're leaving that headroom, and when you come to mix you should find faders don't have to be cranked right down. If you track steady signals a bit hot - don't worry! Just clip gain down your audio regions so you're hitting your plugins at a reasonable level.

Above all listen.
ok well this is what I do do but my guitar tracks with 10db of headroom RMS at around -30dbfs. Is that OK? or should I just not care about RMS?
Old 10th January 2017
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
ok well this is what I do do but my guitar tracks with 10db of headroom RMS at around -30dbfs. Is that OK? or should I just not care about RMS?
If I'm reading you right, that's a good range to be in. Most of my guitar tracks come in -10db and its an ideal level for mixing with other tracks. Driven Guitars wind up sounding much louder then the actually are because they are compressed and don't have the large transients other instruments like drums and vocals have. The exception would be when recording a completely dry guitar without compression. The transient peaks can be much greater.

The main thing is to keep the tracks in the green range. When they peak in the yellow and red (red is 0db and above) you risk digital distortion which can be quite nasty. There are only a few tools which can fix peaks that crack the ceiling, and they don't always work very well.

You can always boost a weak signal up when needed and not have issues with the noise floor. You have over 100db between the ceiling and floor tracking digitally at 24 bits so there is no reason to run levels too high. If the meter peaks at 1/2 power you should be fine. When you recorded to tape you have much less headroom and it took allot of work maintain a signal playing in the safe zone. Peaks that went over saturated in a musically friendly way.

The only thing you have to worry about is having enough signal to drive your headphones (if you use them) a weak signal may record fine but many headphone amps built into interfaces and the headphones themselves can be weak making you think you need to record at higher gains. Using a high quality headphone amp and good phones can be like night and day. With a strong clear headphone gain, you can record at lower volumes without much of a problem.
Old 10th January 2017
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
So much confusion....can't say I blame you, but it's certainly not bollocks!

VU is NOT RMS - similar, but not the same.

0dBVU is NOT -18dBFS. That's one possible lineup, but not the only one. -20, -16, -14, -12 all common.

Don't stress it too much. Use peak meters, not RMS for now. Aim for steady signals (eg synth pads, driven guitars, and so on) to hover around the -18dBFS mark. Peaks can go a lot higher, but it's worth leaving 6-10dB of headroom.

Now - you won't ever peak if you're leaving that headroom, and when you come to mix you should find faders don't have to be cranked right down. If you track steady signals a bit hot - don't worry! Just clip gain down your audio regions so you're hitting your plugins at a reasonable level.

Above all listen.
Perfect summary!
Old 11th January 2017
  #6
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You're recording 24bit, digital, just make sue you're not clipping and gain stage later when mixing
Old 11th January 2017
  #7
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Old 11th January 2017
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
ok well this is what I do do but my guitar tracks with 10db of headroom RMS at around -30dbfs. Is that OK? or should I just not care about RMS?
I can't remember the last time I worried about RMS metering.

I use peak meters when tracking and mixing, VU meters on the mix buss whilst mixing, and LUFS meters when mixing for broadcast (where average loudness is important, and you'll fail tech specs if you miss the right range).

-10dBFS for steady state signals is actually a little hot, but not outrageously so. you'll probably find you're hitting things a little hot come mix time. I tend to gainstage things down a little if things come in that high.

But yes - don't worry about RMS metering really, especially at tracking. Maybe come mastering you might want to..but I don't master.

https://studios301.com/leon-on-vu-meters/ is some good info on how to use VU meters whilst mixing.
Old 11th January 2017
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
ok well this is what I do do but my guitar tracks with 10db of headroom RMS at around -30dbfs. Is that OK? or should I just not care about RMS?
The dialogue you hear in pretty much every film is at around -31dBfs... so I'd say you are in the ball park.

The thing about "-18dBfs" is that it is a REFERENCE level. That is what throws most people off when they first start trying to get better recordings.

What is a reference level? It is the level you use with a test signal to calibrate your gear and your listening position.

I'll try to make this quick so it's not a lot of reading, but here is basically how you "record at -18dBfs". After doing this you'll notice that some of the tracks record hotter than -18 and some quieter. And that is ok.

When setting up any studio even a modest home studio, you need to make sure that everything is calibrated correctly. This ensures that one part of your studio isn't accidentally causing problems for another part of your studio.

If you have a modest setup, calibrating to -18dBfs is pretty easy. The only two things you will need, is whatever free signal generator plugin that came with your DAW and an SPL meter of some sort. A lot of people have the Radio Shack "Realistic" brand SPL meter that costs around $30. Those are great. You can also now find SPL meter apps for your cell phone that can also work well. It's ok if the SPL meter isn't super expensive and amazing. You will just be using it to help set a repeatable reference level. So it doesn't have to be super expensive.

First turn your monitor volume knob all the way down and if your speakers have a volume knob on them, set them to their "unity" or normal level mark, or just turn them all the way up.

Then, In your DAW create a mono track, pan it HARD LEFT, and put the signal generator plugin on it. Set the signal generator to PINK NOISE (has to be pink, not white) and set it's level to -18.

Set your SPL meter to C-weighting, Slow response. If there are gain ranges try to set it around the 70 to 80dB SPL range.

Now start turning up your monitor volume knob. hold your SPL meter right about the spot your head normally is when sitting at your daw in front of your speakers. Depending on how far away from the speakers you are, you can stop turning up the volume at a lower SPL level. What I usually recommend is that if you are less than about 3ft away from your speakers, stop turning up the knob when the SPL meter reads 76dB SPL. If you are 3ft to about 6ft stop when the meter reads 79dB SPL. If you are more than 6ft away you can use 82dB or 85dB SPL (these levels are my own guidelines... nothing scientific about them). if 76 feels too quiet, turn it up to 79... if it feels too loud turn the volume knob down a little bit.

You want it to be loud enough that you feel like you really have to raise your voice and shout to be heard over the noise. So it's fairly loud but not deafening. Whatever reading gets you to that point, 76, 79, 82 or 85... you could even use non standard levels like 78 or 81 or whatever, that is what you want. You want the noise to be loud enough that if you were talking to the person next to you, you would have to raise your voice and shout a little to be heard.

Yup a piece of masking tape or console tape on your monitor volume control and with a pen/marker/sharpie mark the spot where the volume knob is so you can always go back to it in an instant.

This is now you calibrated reference level AT -18dBFS!

When you start recording... DO NOT TOUCH THE MONITOR LEVEL AT ALL. If something feels too loud turn the mic preamp down... if something feels too quiet turn the mic preamp up.

When you start mixing DO NOT TOUCH THE MONITOR LEVEL AT ALL. If something feels too loud turn its fader down, if something feels too quiet turn its fader up.

That is how you technically record and mix at -18dBfs. It's not that meter on all the tracks perfectly hit -18dBfs. It's that you used -18dBfs as your reference level to determine what should be considered too loud to your ears and what should be considered too quiet to your ears.

You'll start to notice something like a hand clap or a tamborine will feel really loud to you even though the meter is really low. And sometimes an instrument, like bass guitar, won't feel very loud though the meter is very high.

If you do end up moving your monitor volume knob... when you start tracking or start mixing again, you can easily line up the knob to the mark on the tape and you are instantly back at your reference level and ready to go.

hope that helps! Cheers!
Old 11th January 2017
  #10
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I'll cut it down to it's simplest form, as most DAW meters have this it should be easy to explain.

Green = good, orange = be careful, red = bad. I'm sure they went with the traffic lights system for that exact reason..

Also it's the reason I always recommend a tracking compressor / limiter, it helps keep things flowing smoothly.. You don't need to do much in the way of gain reduction. A lot of interfaces have limiter functionality built in, even if it doesn't you can get something like an ART Tube pre-amp with a limiter function in it for like $80.00.

That $80.00 is worth it not to wreck your perfect take. Sure for most things it shouldn't be an issue if you're not tracking too hot, but unless you're a highly experienced singer that knows exact positioning it can and probably will be cheap insurance.
Old 11th January 2017
  #11
Look man... **** all the rules. Record at the level you're comfortable with. Nothing else matters.
Old 11th January 2017
  #12
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I can't remember the last time I worried about RMS metering.

I use peak meters when tracking and mixing, VU meters on the mix buss whilst mixing, and LUFS meters when mixing for broadcast (where average loudness is important, and you'll fail tech specs if you miss the right range).

-10dBFS for steady state signals is actually a little hot, but not outrageously so. you'll probably find you're hitting things a little hot come mix time. I tend to gainstage things down a little if things come in that high.

But yes - don't worry about RMS metering really, especially at tracking. Maybe come mastering you might want to..but I don't master.

https://studios301.com/leon-on-vu-meters/ is some good info on how to use VU meters whilst mixing.
by "steady state" do you mean constant signals?
Old 11th January 2017
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godson View Post
Look man... **** all the rules. Record at the level you're comfortable with. Nothing else matters.
There's no "rules" but there's good gainstaging and good practice. Once you learn this...you know when to break said "rules".

Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
by "steady state" do you mean constant signals?
Yes. A synth pad, driven guitar, or similar. A snare drum would be the opposite - if your snare peaks at -18dBFS (as I've seen some recommend) you may then need to trim it up to hit compressors etc within a good range.
Old 11th January 2017
  #14
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by explorer View Post
Give this a read:
Q. How much headroom should I leave with 24-bit recording? | Sound On Sound

If you want to try VU meters this plugin is very good:
VUMT Overview
Thanks a lot. I think I read that article before but it is very good to read again so thank you. I guess the confusing part is where it says as a summary:

So working with average levels of around ‑20dBFS or so is fine and proper, works in exactly the same way as analogue, and will generally make your life easier when it comes to mixing and processing.


See I am not sure what that really is. The peak level is much easier to work with but some material has huge transients so not sure if it is right or not.

have a look at these two screenshots. One is a strummed guitar and the other a vocal. You can see the guitar has peaks between -18 and -12dbfs and the vocal has peaks in the highest place at around -8dbfs. I guess the vocal is too hot then?
Attached Thumbnails
But it is impossible to record at -18DBFS RMS-screen-shot-2017-01-11-8.59.35-am.jpg   But it is impossible to record at -18DBFS RMS-screen-shot-2017-01-11-9.40.48-am.jpg  
Old 11th January 2017
  #15
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I was going to second Mnokey ....I usually record well into green. Hardly going into mid yellow ...-10db

Then when mixing gain stage to that sweet spot. Million ways to do that

But most important if you need to hear the tracking and your levels are low...just crank the monitors or headphones until your ready to mix. More headroom =more space and your mixes can breath. More dynamics.
Old 11th January 2017
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
have a look at these two screenshots. One is a strummed guitar and the other a vocal. You can see the guitar has peaks between -18 and -12dbfs and the vocal has peaks in the highest place at around -8dbfs. I guess the vocal is too hot then?
Both are fine. The point is to leave yourself enough headroom so that your tracks don't clip. Peaks between -12 and -6 should be fine, and depending on the instrument, the average may be around -18 or may be higher (distorted guitars, synths) or lower (drums, etc.).

Just leave yourself at least 6dB of headroom (e.g., peaks at -6dBFS or lower) and you'll be fine.
Old 11th January 2017
  #17
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Owen L T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
Thanks a lot. I think I read that article before but it is very good to read again so thank you. I guess the confusing part is where it says as a summary:

So working with average levels of around ‑20dBFS or so is fine and proper, works in exactly the same way as analogue, and will generally make your life easier when it comes to mixing and processing.


See I am not sure what that really is. The peak level is much easier to work with but some material has huge transients so not sure if it is right or not.

have a look at these two screenshots. One is a strummed guitar and the other a vocal. You can see the guitar has peaks between -18 and -12dbfs and the vocal has peaks in the highest place at around -8dbfs. I guess the vocal is too hot then?
[EDIT: have just realised that I've basically repeated tedtan's advice in the post above!]

Both of these are absolutely fine. The main thing - almost the ONLY thing - is not to clip the digital input, ever. The vocal would only be too hot if it clipped. What you have there is a near-perfect example of what I would expect the levels of a vocal to be - you've allowed room for plenty of dynamics, while clearly the loudest notes are not going to leave you scrambling to turn down the input gain lest you ruin a take. On the guitar, depending on the noise you're getting, it looks like you COULD have gone a little hotter if you wanted, as the part was very steady.

For comparison, here's the wave of a (DI'd) rhythm guitar part that I'm just tracking. It's actually very similar to yours - maybe peaking ever so slightly higher. From your screenshots, though, it sure looks like your levels are pretty spot on.
Attached Thumbnails
But it is impossible to record at -18DBFS RMS-guit.jpg  
Old 11th January 2017
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
Thanks a lot. I think I read that article before but it is very good to read again so thank you. I guess the confusing part is where it says as a summary:

So working with average levels of around ‑20dBFS or so is fine and proper, works in exactly the same way as analogue, and will generally make your life easier when it comes to mixing and processing.


See I am not sure what that really is. The peak level is much easier to work with but some material has huge transients so not sure if it is right or not.

have a look at these two screenshots. One is a strummed guitar and the other a vocal. You can see the guitar has peaks between -18 and -12dbfs and the vocal has peaks in the highest place at around -8dbfs. I guess the vocal is too hot then?
use your ears, not your eyes. How could a painter use his ears to paint with? Conversely how can a sound engineer use his eyes to record and mix with??

Calibrate your monitoring using the reference level and then listen to the guitar and vocal you recorded. Does either sound too loud or too quiet? If not then they are good. If one sounds quiet to your ears, then it is and turn it up. If one sounds loud to your ears then it is and turn it down.

You cannot record and mix with your eyes. You can check for problems that you might be hearing with your eyes... but the quickest way to get crappy sounding recordings is to rely on your eyes instead of your ears.
Old 11th January 2017
  #19
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
use your ears, not your eyes. How could a painter use his ears to paint with? Conversely how can a sound engineer use his eyes to record and mix with??

Calibrate your monitoring using the reference level and then listen to the guitar and vocal you recorded. Does either sound too loud or too quiet? If not then they are good. If one sounds quiet to your ears, then it is and turn it up. If one sounds loud to your ears then it is and turn it down.

You cannot record and mix with your eyes. You can check for problems that you might be hearing with your eyes... but the quickest way to get crappy sounding recordings is to rely on your eyes instead of your ears.
but you see meters don't you, you don't really listen to them and gain staging is about looking not listening isn't it?
Old 11th January 2017
  #20
Aren't you overthinking this a lot, guys? Psycho_monkey has already said all that's needed to know:
1. Don't clip
2. Don't push too much level into some plugins that are designed to model analog behavior
Period

PS
And have fun (my addition)
Old 11th January 2017
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
Aren't you overthinking this a lot, guys? Psycho_monkey has already said all that's needed to know:
1. Don't clip
2. Don't push too much level into some plugins that are designed to model analog behavior
Period

PS
And have fun (my addition)
T-Bear is right!


PS: "T" for "Thor", obviously...
Old 11th January 2017
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
There's no "rules" but there's good gainstaging and good practice. Once you learn this...you know when to break said "rules".
... thanks for correcting me. Captain Obvious
Old 11th January 2017
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by attaboy_jhb View Post
but you see meters don't you, you don't really listen to them and gain staging is about looking not listening isn't it?
No. Gain staging is about calibrating your listening environment correctly so that if it sounds too loud, then it is too loud. When calibrated correctly your ears will bleed before you ever start clipping.

when mixing I (and all the mixers I know) are not looking at the meters. We are listening with our ears, looking at faders, looking at track labeling to see which track is which, looking at parameter settings and doing lots and lots of automation moves.

When tracking, I'm not looking at meters. I'm looking at the timeline, I'm making mental notes as to where screw ups occurred so I know exactly where to jump back to and punch in, I'm looking at markers to see where we are in the song, and I'm looking at the gear to find knobs and faders to adjust level and EQ and compression settings as I'm recording based off of what I'm hearing. If an instrument starts to feel too loud to my ears, I'll move over and as smooth as possible try to ride the gain on the preamp or fader on the console so that it doesn't hurt my ears.

Meters, like I said, are there to help you figure out a problem when you find one and to help calibrate your system so that you can use your ears. But this is music, you should be using your ears 110% of the time for any decisions you make.
Old 12th January 2017
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godson View Post
... thanks for correcting me. Captain Obvious
This is the newbie zone; read some of the OP's questions. You can't be too obvious (and your advice just isn't helpful).
Old 12th January 2017
  #25
OP - you're just overthinking everything (a common theme perhaps?).

Leave plenty of headroom; don't worry about peaks hitting harder, but keep more consistent sources AROUND the -22 to -16 mark, and just do lots of recording and mixing.

Over time, you'll find that you learn when you have things too hot, you'll constantly be fighting for mixbuss headroom, and you'll get into the habit of turning things down before you start mixing.

Etch' advice re monitor calibration is good, but maybe more useful for post production/mastering where consistent loudness is the final goal. Certainly worth giving it a try, though it's not something anyone I've ever assisted has done. It's also not what we talk about with respect to gain staging through a processing chain - although it WILL help you keep levels in check as you work.
Old 12th January 2017
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
OP - you're just overthinking everything (a common theme perhaps?).

Leave plenty of headroom; don't worry about peaks hitting harder, but keep more consistent sources AROUND the -22 to -16 mark, and just do lots of recording and mixing.

Over time, you'll find that you learn when you have things too hot, you'll constantly be fighting for mixbuss headroom, and you'll get into the habit of turning things down before you start mixing.

Etch' advice re monitor calibration is good, but maybe more useful for post production/mastering where consistent loudness is the final goal. Certainly worth giving it a try, though it's not something anyone I've ever assisted has done. It's also not what we talk about with respect to gain staging through a processing chain - although it WILL help you keep levels in check as you work.
To each their own. It's how I learned to setup a studio in college... it's how the music studio I work at has been setup since it was built in the 80's. And when I've worked at other studios and I ask "what is the room calibrated to?" I always get the answer "+4dBu = -20dBfs (or -18) = 85dB SPL (or 79)". I've never had a studio not be able to tell me what the room is calibrated to or tell me that the room has never been calibrated. From small studios like Stagg Street and the Greene Room in Van Nuys to big studios like Capitol and East West in Hollywood... and even Abbey Road in London. Yes, it also holds true in audio post. But it's never been exclusive to audio post, at least not for me and my experiences.

To each their own... YMMV. At the end of the day, if it sounds good then it is good. Nobody scrutinizes the process, only the end result.
Old 12th January 2017
  #27
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That's odd. Usually the interface is the one you calibrate for those levels from -16 to -20 or whatever. Your going out of.. I know we use dbox and symphony so stay our outputs at -18dBFS

Now as far as +4 that just means the signal is a balanced one
All rooms will be different. And just listen to monkey. Once u learn the basics of gain staging and how to properly bring up your dynamics , not only will u retain most of the important dynamics without squashing them. But you'll learn little tips and tricks to get around
Some
Problems

But I think your confusing calibration with line level and balanced and unbalanced
Old 12th January 2017
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
To each their own. It's how I learned to setup a studio in college... it's how the music studio I work at has been setup since it was built in the 80's. And when I've worked at other studios and I ask "what is the room calibrated to?" I always get the answer "+4dBu = -20dBfs (or -18) = 85dB SPL (or 79)". I've never had a studio not be able to tell me what the room is calibrated to or tell me that the room has never been calibrated. From small studios like Stagg Street and the Greene Room in Van Nuys to big studios like Capitol and East West in Hollywood... and even Abbey Road in London. Yes, it also holds true in audio post. But it's never been exclusive to audio post, at least not for me and my experiences.
Interesting.

No mix engineer I've ever worked with, as I said, listened at one volume. I've even read a quote from Bob Clearmountain saying most of the time, he's listening at lower than speaking volume (I certainly couldn't work all day at levels where you have to raise your voice to get over it), and also that anyone is welcome to change the level at any time. My clients frequently want to change playback levels too!

All that said - I can see why it's a great idea for initial gainstaging and balancing, and I'm curious to try calibrating my room to that setup, at least as an experiment.

It's a long time since I worked at Abbey Road (and I was VERY junior - just a runner, occasional assistant)...I really don't recall anyone talking about this or working like this, and I sat in on some big sessions there (Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Gangs of New York recording sessions and the like). Outside of post, you are the first person I've ever heard of to suggest calibrating a room like this. I've never seen a console in a mix studio with a nominal monitoring level marked (and I've worked in many, if not most, of the mid-high level London studios).

For mixing a film - again, I totally get why it's necessary, and for mastering an album too. But when consistent loudness isn't the end goal, I don't think it's necessary or advantageous to listen at the same volume the whole time, even if it is useful for setting up the initial balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
To each their own... YMMV. At the end of the day, if it sounds good then it is good. Nobody scrutinizes the process, only the end result.
Quite. But I am curious to try this setup for sure.
Old 12th January 2017
  #29
Old 12th January 2017
  #30
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Yup, Bob works quiet, and he speaks pretty softly too

I used to see plenty of SSLs in mix rooms with chinagraph marks around the monitor knob, desks in tracking rooms rarely.
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